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Getting off alcohol

paranoia hallucinations antipsychotic

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#1 userx8

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 08:47 AM


Hi all, I've managed to get myself stuck on ~3 bottles of red (12.5%) wine daily and finding it very difficult to taper from.  I received a diagnosis of BPD once last year and often find it incredibly difficult to get through episodes of paranoia/seeing and hearing things.  I often end up relapsing to alcohol to numb this, but then this often gets worse.  I was prescribed an antipsychotic and antidepressant whilst at a hospital last year, but I find it difficult to take both (the antidepressant, sertraline has a nightmare of withdrawal and has relapsed me back into drinking many times).  I'd also like to know if there are any supplements which may help with these episodes - thanks!



#2 Dorian Grey

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 03:56 PM

Inositol (1gr, one hour before bedtime) sends me to sleep by quieting all those thought loops going on that used to keep me awake.  Lot's of folks take it for OCD, & it's starting to get recognized as helpful in other psych areas as well.  Very safe, and few side effects other than peace of  mind.  Some folks dose inositol at 12-18 grams/day.  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9169302

 

Controlled trials of inositol in psychiatry

 

"These results suggest that inositol has therapeutic effects in the spectrum of illness responsive to serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitors, including depression, panic and OCD"

 

Magnesium also is known to have a calming effect on both the body and mind, & my girlfriend takes some low dose mag (citrate) an hour before she wants to go to bed when she doesn't feel sleepy.  Too much mag can cause loose bowels, but if you invest in a pill cutter & trim the usual doses down to size, you shouldn't have this problem.  It really doesn't take much to have a noticeable effect.  Mag Citrate seems to be easiest on the tummy.  100mg is an effective dose for relaxation.  It's hard to find low dose mag in stores, but I found Mag Citrate at 200mg/pill online (the standard dose is 400mg).  Mag Citrate crumbles badly when you cut it with a pill cutter, but I still cut my 200mg tabs in half.  If you hunt around, you may find some low dose mag that doesn't need to be cut.  

 

Both of these are safe to take with alcohol during your taper.  


Edited by synesthesia, 25 September 2016 - 04:06 PM.


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#3 fntms

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 06:44 PM

Magnesium glycinate can be taken at high doses without side effects, it might help indeed for alcohol withdrawal (alcohol depletes mag so it makes sense to supplement).
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#4 chemicalambrosia

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 03:11 PM

That is a lot of alcohol. You might consider going into treatment or getting help from a doctor if you are having trouble moderating your drinking. Its possible you might find a supplement that could help, but it will probably be hit or miss. This is a thread that talks about supplements, but the drugs discussed are probably a better idea. http://www.longecity...ey-for-helpers/ Baclofen or Gabapentin might help reducing or quitting alcohol. Here is a forum about moderating or abstaining from alcohol, and they are pretty open about using drugs(baclofen,etc) and supplements to help reduce alcohol use. http://www.mywayout.org/community/


Edited by chemicalambrosia, 27 September 2016 - 03:12 PM.

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#5 normalizing

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 01:30 AM

he is drinking red wine not quite really the typical alcohol. considering red wine has about 100 flavonoids, it has been seen as a completely different area of alcohol use for which basic alcohol withdrawal meds dont really work the same. i do find the limited knowledge on heavy alcohol use amusing tho, people are trying to move on and discover new things but still cant solve one of the oldest problem humanity has faced


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#6 cuprous

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 07:38 PM

Someone else on here reported sodium butyrate reduced his binging tendencies.  Instead of having an automatic four more drinks after the first two he found he could sip one or two.  I believe there's a rat study showing the same.



#7 normalizing

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:32 PM

maybe it works just for him since i havent seen anyone else reporting such thing but for one, ive seen many reports on kudzu with so-so personal experience. it seemed to help in certain situations(aka with beer) but not with heavier liquor. but it did kind of encourage abstinence duration in through periods perhaps placebo



#8 platypus

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 10:22 PM

Naltrexone?



#9 normalizing

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 11:34 PM

hah! good luck with that one. i traveled the globe to find it cheap and available. its the most elusive stuff out there. i heard of antiagingsystems selling really low doses which are completely useless to get off any addiction and also with a very high price.



#10 normalizing

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 12:10 AM

interesting article just now; http://www.medicalne...cles/313205.php

 

"Because of the high comorbidity between major depressive disorder and alcoholism there is the widely recognized self-medication hypothesis, suggesting that depressed individuals may turn to drinking as a means to treat their depression," says Raab-Graham. "We now have biochemical and behavioral data to support that hypothesis."

 

this conclusion is priceless. thanks Raab Graham, i didnt know that but forgive me i was one of your rats in the past few years i just reacted to your control and acknowledgment of things.


Edited by normalizing, 03 October 2016 - 12:15 AM.

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#11 Junk Master

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:14 AM

Lots of accounts of baclofen at relatively high doses working well.  Personally, I think low/moderate doses of Phenibut helped me, but then I wasn't close to 3 bottles of red a day.  More like 3-4 IPA'S or 3/4 a bottle of red, 3-4 times a week after a stressful day or a hard workout.

 

In any event, I was able to quit without any physical withdrawal and haven't had a single drink in months.  Not only that, but I have no desire to drink and I can definitely notice an increase in my short term memory already.



#12 abelard lindsay

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 02:23 AM

Taking Piracetam regularly made me despise alcohol.   It does something that makes the alcohol buzz feel unsatisfying.

 

Piracetam promotes mossy fiber synaptic reorganization in rats withdrawn from alcohol.

 

[The functional-morphological characteristics of alcohol-induced pathology as dependent on the nature of the intoxication and its nootropil (piracetam) correction in an experiment].

 

[Cognitive function in alcoholics in a double-blind study of piracetam].

 

 

Treatment of alcohol organic mental disorder with piracetam.

 

 

 

 

Influence of nootropic drugs on drinking behaviour in ethanol-preferring mice and ethanol-induced increase of seizure susceptibility.

 

 


Edited by abelard lindsay, 10 October 2016 - 02:28 AM.


#13 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 04:50 AM

I'm sorry but a lot of the recommendations here are shit. First of all, three bottles of wine a day is serious. He's obviously spiraling downward, and this could get worse quickly, endangering not only his health in the long run, but his immediate functioning and livelihood. Throwing recommendations, based on lose hypotheses you read somewhere is a poor idea and may exacerbate the problem.

Magnesium Glycinate? Please, that will do nothing for withdrawal or his desire to consume alcohol. Just because it calms your girlfriend, doesn't mean you can extrapolate it as a treatment for this very serious disorder.

 

Phenibut? Yes, let's get him dependent on another seriously addictive substance. Sure, it can help. But it's a very serious risk for someone who is already dependent on one substance.

The fact of the matter is, is that there don't appear to be any studies that convincingly show that there are any OTC studies that reliably treat alcoholism. If anyone would like to show me otherwise, I'd love to be proven wrong. I'm not talking 1 or 3 studies however, but a bulk of literature from a diverse range of journals with high impact factors.

Although depression and alcoholism are linked, correlation doesn't imply causation, and you guys should know this. Sure, he could be self-medicating his depression with alcohol. Or, he could have found alcohol, got addicted, and then fell into depression, who knows. Regardless, there are no studies I am aware of that imply that anti-depressants are in any way, shape, or form helpful for the treatment of alcoholism.

Now, OP, first thing’s first. Are you seeking help from a professional? With that level of drinking, you should be under the guidance of a professional instead of asking dipshits like us on the internet of what to do. If you aren't please, seek one, regardless if my or anyone else's advice is helpful. The advantage of seeking one now, before things get worse, is that you have the time to find one you like. If you try to find one after a binge that leads to an OD, or worse, delirious tremens (please like this up if you don’t know what it is), you’re stuck with who you get.

There aren't that many drugs that treat alcoholism. Let's look at the 3 + 1 standard drugs used to treat alcoholism these days: 

Naltexone: This is the mainstay of the treatment of alcoholism. It's a mu opioid receptor antagonist, or more commonly known as an opiate blocker. Most people don't know that a lot of the pleasure of alcohol is mediated through endorphin release. So they give you Naltrexone at 50mg per day (the same as an opiate user), which works for 24 hours and blocks most of the effects of alcohol. It unfortunately, does nothing to block the cravings for alcohol, it just blocks the pleasurable effects. This results in a lot of discontinuation. Sucks if you get injured too, no endorphins to back you up.

Acamprosate: The other major drug used to treat alcoholism. Its pharmacology is poorly understood, though it seems to work through the GABA system and NMDA receptors. Unlike Naltrexone, Acamprosate does seem to somewhat reduce the urge to drink. It's not a drastic effect, but combined with treatment, it is noticeable enough to be prescribed. It also reduces the symptoms of alcohol abstinence, like nausea and insomnia, making not drinking easier.

Disulfiram: A very good medication if taken consistently, but for obvious reasons, it's not taken consistently. Discovered in the 1920s, it simply makes you throw up if you drink alcohol. If you've ever vomited after eating something, you know the negative association that vomiting can create with that food. It works by inhibiting the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. Ethanol is first converted to acetaldehyde by alcohol dehydrogenase. If acetaldehyde is not further converted to acetic acid (a natural anaerobic product of the krebs cycle) by acetaldehyde dehydrogenase, all kinds of fuckery can happen (a large population of Asians are genetically deficient in acetaldehyde dehydrogenase, and that's why the get all red and can't take much alcohol) anyway, let me digress. Most alcoholics stop taking this, cause, duh.

Topamax: Only recently discovered to be effective in treating alcoholism, it seems to treat the underlying cravings and reduce the urge to drink alcohol. It can have a fair amount of side-effects, however.

These are the four drugs a professional will generally administer in the treatment of alcoholism. Unfortunately, for some reason, the most effective treatment seems to have gone under the radar, and that’s that of Baclofen:

--
http://docdro.id/PSegKjp (from the Lancet w/ and impact factor of a whopping 44)

--http://docdro.id/ne01v6g

 

--http://docdro.id/oHRwzJQ

 

It really does seem to have an efficacy that surpasses other treatments for alcoholism. Why it’s not far more well known in the United States is beyond me. I mean, I understand there is no financial incentive to drive forward that information, but one would think that with the desperation that alcoholism produces, word of mouth would catch up. It is well known in France, however. Let me share my own personal story with Baclofen.

Unfortunately for me, I have genes passed down to me for alcoholism from both sides of my family. Severe enough where members of each side have died from it. Of course, I was warned from an early age to be extremely careful. I was in a bad place a couple years, after a breakdown of sorts, and alcohol was one of my major coping mechanisms. And it certainly wasn’t in a healthy way. I would often have a handle a week. I can’t be sure, but it’s possible that that amount would sometimes crawl up to two handles, depending in how bad of shape I was. Anyway, at one point, I was prescribed Baclofen for my neuropathy. Over the next two months I made a seemed to spontaneously make conscious effort to want to save money by not purchasing so much alcohol at CVS. Gee, I thought to myself, I’m being pretty smart. I’m saving quite a bit of money here. It took me 2-3 months to put 2 and 2 together to realize that the Baclofen was obliterating my alcohol cravings, and I simply no longer desired to purchase it. In that span of time I had gone from binge drinking daily to drinking once per week. And that wasn’t even my intention. Remember, after all, the Baclofen was for neuropathy. It totally snuck up on me.

The ‘neuropathy’ turned out to be something else that mimicked it quite convincingly. However, I am staying on the Baclofen, perhaps for the rest of my life. That downward spiral of drinking is nothing to take lightly, and I very much appreciate being able to stop after 1-2 drinks.

Anyway, OP, I hope this helped. I greatly respect your situation and the difficulty it presents. I recommend you get a professional on your side, educate yourself about Baclofen, and if need be (very likely), educate the doctor about Baclofen. Best of luck.


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 10 October 2016 - 04:51 AM.

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#14 platypus

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 07:33 AM

Naltrexone should reduce the need to drink as the pleasurable effects of alcohol wane. Why drink 8 pints if it does not feel good?



#15 Dorian Grey

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 04:35 PM

A good paper here on how mag & zinc can help with withdrawal.  

 

http://www.sciencedi...306987711002283

 

Glutamatergic hyperfunctioning during alcohol withdrawal syndrome: Therapeutic perspective with zinc and magnesium

 

Abstract

 

It is known that the glutamatergic pathways are hyperfunctioning during alcohol withdrawal syndrome. It has been demonstrated that hyperfunctioning of this system causes a great damage to the superior cortical activity, the ability to concentrate and the control of impulses. Recent studies show that the cations zinc and magnesium modulate the glutamatergic function, reducing it to non-toxic levels, yet not reducing it to the point of depriving this neurotransmitter of its normal activity. New perspectives of treatment focus on the modulation of this system, having, as a result, reestablishment of impulse control abilities, damage prevention to the hippocampus and the amygdala and prevention of future relapses.

 

-----------------------------

 

Pharmaceuticals are great if you can get your doc to prescribe them, & don't mind the side effects, but as this is a supplement forum, I focused on easily available and largely side effect free supplements.  


Edited by synesthesia, 11 October 2016 - 04:52 PM.


#16 normalizing

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 01:10 AM

yeah but dont take zinc and magnesium during alcohol consumption, it made the hangover 10x worse for whatever reason. im skeptical those two elements can even help with withdrawal, but what they did was cause severe headaches and worse than expected hangover for sure.


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#17 cuprous

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:03 PM

Lest we forget the obvious - absolutely take a B-complex vitamin.  



#18 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 04:00 PM

A good paper here on how mag & zinc can help with withdrawal.  

 

http://www.sciencedi...306987711002283

 

Glutamatergic hyperfunctioning during alcohol withdrawal syndrome: Therapeutic perspective with zinc and magnesium

 

Abstract

 

It is known that the glutamatergic pathways are hyperfunctioning during alcohol withdrawal syndrome. It has been demonstrated that hyperfunctioning of this system causes a great damage to the superior cortical activity, the ability to concentrate and the control of impulses. Recent studies show that the cations zinc and magnesium modulate the glutamatergic function, reducing it to non-toxic levels, yet not reducing it to the point of depriving this neurotransmitter of its normal activity. New perspectives of treatment focus on the modulation of this system, having, as a result, reestablishment of impulse control abilities, damage prevention to the hippocampus and the amygdala and prevention of future relapses.

 

-----------------------------

 

Pharmaceuticals are great if you can get your doc to prescribe them, & don't mind the side effects, but as this is a supplement forum, I focused on easily available and largely side effect free supplements.  

 

Hate the break it to you, but this study is garbage. Your first hint is that the impact factor for the journal it's published in is 1.14. You can easily and quickly see a study's impact factor by downloading a plugin called "The Paper Link" for Google Chrome and then checking the study on Pub Med. The second indicator is the absolute brevity of the study, something unusual for a study like this that could have a lot of depth.

The third, and most egregious, is a complete misunderstand of how Mg2+ ions work in the NMDA receptor, which is also a common misunderstanding around here, leading people to believe that magnesium functions in the same way as a traditional NMDA antagonist like dextromethorphan, when it most certainly does not. Let me explain.

So excuse my my weird analogy. Let's say you have one sumo wrestler completely blocking a passage into a small valley. Now, what he's blocking into this valley is a bunch of baseballs that are trying to flow in, but they can't because the sumo wrestler is in the way, and he's fat enough to block them all. However, right next to him, there's a switch, and someone is throwing rocks at the switch. If that person hits the switch just right, a plate of sushi falls, and the sumo wrestler leaves to get the sushi, letting the baseballs flow in. Simple enough?

So the sumo wrestler is the magnesium ion. The valley is the ion channel of the NMDA receptor, into the cell. The baseballs are the sodium ions trying to flow into the cell and depolarize it. The switch is the NMDA receptor, the rocks the glutamate neurotransmitter, the person throwing the rocks the firing presynaptic cell, and the sushi, well, I just need something to move the sumo wrestler (I'm sure he's hungry). So, as you can see, you can increase the number of rocks (or glutamate) to increase the likelihood of moving the magnesium ion (or sumo wrestler), but having two sumo wrestlers does nothing more to block the channel than having one. That's why calling magnesium an NMDA antagonist, although technically true, on a functional level is a misnomer, unless you are deficient. But if you are that deficient, you will be having to worry about much more serious issues such as seizures.

And if any dickhead wants to call me out on my analogy, yes, I know it's more complicated than that. But it fits for the purposes of my description.

So, this is why, if you look at the study, almost all the source linked by the study don't actually use magnesium as an NMDA antagonist, while citing proof of NMDA antagonists for their claims, but rather memantine and others. They should have used dextromethorphan to make an interesting study. It's over-the-counter and effective for things like this. I've used it to prevent tolerance to various drugs.

Anyway, I hope this post was informative.


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 13 October 2016 - 04:07 PM.


#19 normalizing

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 08:23 PM

i called it crap first. its quite irresponsible and even dangerous to recommend treating alcohol withdrawl with zinc and magnesium. might as well say just drink water to detox...



#20 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 10:51 PM

i called it crap first. its quite irresponsible and even dangerous to recommend treating alcohol withdrawl with zinc and magnesium. might as well say just drink water to detox...

 

WHat is this, first grade?



#21 normalizing

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:53 PM

 

i called it crap first. its quite irresponsible and even dangerous to recommend treating alcohol withdrawl with zinc and magnesium. might as well say just drink water to detox...

 

WHat is this, first grade?

 

 

?
 



#22 Keizo

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 02:34 AM



#23 Skyguy2005

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 05:47 PM

Honestly talk to somebody about it (I am not a professional or anything).

 

Herbs: Willow Bark? Valerian? Milk thistle?

 

Perhaps some nice cooking to replace alcohol. E.g. olive oil and curry powder on a baking tray, slather chopped potatoes on, baste, roast, enjoy.


Edited by Skyguy2005, 16 October 2016 - 05:49 PM.


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#24 normalizing

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 07:33 PM

skyguy this isnt a cooking thread







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: paranoia, hallucinations, antipsychotic

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