13 replies to this topic

[stan08]

Age, and life-long anxiety issues, have been causing problems with my job and home life.  I'm looking for ideas on what to try for increasing memory and reducing anxiety.  Current options I'm evaluating are ashwagandha, bacopa and aniracetam.  Experiences and other recommendations are welcome.  

[thedevinroy]

Age, and life-long anxiety issues, have been causing problems with my job and home life. I'm looking for ideas on what to try for increasing memory and reducing anxiety. Current options I'm evaluating are ashwagandha, bacopa and aniracetam. Experiences and other recommendations are welcome.

Take all three. They each do different things to the same effect. Also, there are many types of anxieties with many treatment routes... which ones have you responded well to in the past?

[stan08]

 

Age, and life-long anxiety issues, have been causing problems with my job and home life. I'm looking for ideas on what to try for increasing memory and reducing anxiety. Current options I'm evaluating are ashwagandha, bacopa and aniracetam. Experiences and other recommendations are welcome.

Take all three. They each do different things to the same effect. Also, there are many types of anxieties with many treatment routes... which ones have you responded well to in the past?

 

 

The type of anxiety is mostly social related.  I get really nervous and sweat/blush when having to speak in front of others.  Has happened my whole life.  At my current age, and job position, that's a real problem.  Responded best to phenibut.  Even small doses of only 250 mg worked great at reducing anxiety and increasing clarity of thought but fear of addiction and tolerance drove me away from that.  It seems like a lot of things initially worked well for me.  I've tried ashwagandha and bacopa in the past but I was also taking a bunch of other stuff at the same time.  So it's hard to say what supplement provided what effect. The times I tried those two it seemed like they worked well for about a month but then anxiety started to increase (or tolerance set in).  But like I said, I was taking other things at the same time so now I'm looking to try things individually.  Magnesium glycinate used to help with anxiety but now it seems to increase anxiety.  I can't even take it before bed because I'll end up not falling asleep.  Have been skipping it the last week and have been sleeping better as a result. 

[gamesguru]

Ginseng and ginkgo are gaba antagonists , quality sencha (epicatechin & theanine), high magnesium foods (quinoa, beans, hemp protein), bee pollen, red onion (quercetin), broccoli (sulphurophane), and potentially stuff like forskolin (oxytocin via alpha1 receptor), st johns, lemon balm (luteolin, & more gaba antagonists), or rosmarinic acid. (all this kind of derived from my earlier post)

 

None of these things are very effective on their own.  Maybe that's why when I was running tests with bacopa and ashwagandha I got so frustrated, because I was taking it with only one other noot: green tea.  And I wasn't noticing increased ease in social situations, not at all.  Not until I tossed in five other herbs.  Then, it became vaguely noticeable.  Even so, it's nothing like a benzo or propanolol.  The mega-stack takes the edge off a bit, but you still have do work as an introvert.  At least it's not such an uphill battle anymore.  So maybe I didn't give ash and bacopa fair chance.. but honestly, after my trials, scienceguy was totally onto something with his constant shittalking of gaba agonists.  The antagonist route, boosting receptors (both pre- and post-synaptic) is definitely the way to go.  Subconsciously this is probly one of the reasons I'm only doing a pinch of bacopa (125mg), because of anxiety and fatigue and muscle cramps.  Bacopa can be a really harsh noot!    Less exp w/ ash.

 

It's hard to say exactly which ones are most effective, if i had to guess: ginkgo, ginseng , tea, quinoa, bee pollen, broccoli, and luteolin.  Did I mention exercise?

Edited by gamesguru, 28 September 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[gamesguru]

Aniracetam it's hard to remember, it's been so long.  Not the biggest fan iirc.  It's more of a stimulant than an anxiolytic.. cold and mechanical, often sedating, but of course more reliable than fickly piracetam.  Piracetam was hit-or-miss, more misses in the longer-term, but when it worked probably slightly (personally) preferable to aniracetam.  Looking back, literally every pro-gaba (piracetam) supplement has given me the jitters long-term

Aniracetam reverses the anticonvulsant action of NBQX and GYKI 52466 in DBA/2 mice.
Chapman AG1, al-Zubaidy Z, Meldrum BS. (1993)

Aniracetam (1-p-anisoyl-2-pyrrolidinone) selectively reverses the anticonvulsant activities of the non-NMDA receptor antagonists, GYKI 52466 (1-(4-aminophenyl)-4-methyl-7,8-methylenedioxy-5H-2,3- benzodiazepine.HCl) and, to a lesser extent, NBQX (2,3-dihydroxy-6-nitro-7-sulfamoylbenzo(F)quinoxaline), without affecting the anticonvulsant activity of the competitive NMDA receptor antagonist, D(-)-CPPene, in DBA/2 mice. Pretreatment with aniracetam (50 nmol i.c.v., 15 min before drugs) increases the ED50 values (mumol/kg i.p., 15 min) for GYKI 52466-induced protection against sound-induced clonic seizures in DBA/2 mice 7 fold, from 20.1 (11.9-33.9) to 142 (91.7-219), and for NBQX-induced protection 2 fold, from 39.7 (33.8-46.7) to 85.6 (63.9-115), respectively. Aniracetam on its own (12.5-100 nmol i.c.v.) has no convulsant activity, but reverses the anticonvulsant effect of GYKI 52466 (60 mumol/kg i.p., 15 min) in a dose-dependent manner.

[Participation of GABA--benzodiazepine receptor complex in the anxiolytic effect of piracetam].
Moldavkin GM, Voronina TA, Neznamov GG, Maletova OK, Eliava NV. (2006)

It is established that bicuculline, picrotoxin, and flumazenil (agents blocking different sites of GABA receptor) decrease the anxiolytic effect of piracetam as manifested in the conflict situation test. The most pronounced interaction was observed between piracetam and flumazenyl. On the background of antagonist action, piracetam inhibited the effects of flumazenil (but not those of bicuculline and picrotoxin). Based on these data, it is assumed that the anxiolytic effect of piracetam is mediated to some extent by benzodiazepine site of the GABA-benzodiazepine receptor complex.

[thedevinroy]

Phenibut works in the GABA system, so does Ashwagandha, so start there.

[gamesguru]

Phenibut and ash?  Omg are you being serious rn Devin, I cant take you srs.  Listen stan, you jump on those substances and it's gonna be a huge mistake.  Tolerance and Anxiety City.  Phenibut is practically one step shy of xanax, and we all know how counterproductive that is.  Please stan, if you have your wits about you, go with ginseng and ginkgo.  They're proven antagonists at both the GABA_A and GABA_B sites, which would have the exact opposite effect of the questionable recommendation made by the goof above.  Including in your stack a japan-sourced tea with lots of theanine^[sources], and one of the above-mentioned magnesium-rich foods is also a good starting point.  Much better, even, than something like ash, bacopa, kava, passionflower, or taurine.

[stan08]

Phenibut and ash?  Omg are you being serious rn Devin, I cant take you srs.  Listen stan, you jump on those substances and it's gonna be a huge mistake.  Tolerance and Anxiety City.  Phenibut is practically one step shy of xanax, and we all know how counterproductive that is.  Please stan, if you have your wits about you, go with ginseng and ginkgo.  They're proven antagonists at both the GABA_A and GABA_B sites, which would have the exact opposite effect of the questionable recommendation made by the goof above.  Including in your stack a japan-sourced tea with lots of theanine^[sources], and one of the above-mentioned magnesium-rich foods is also a good starting point.  Much better, even, than something like ash, bacopa, kava, passionflower, or taurine.

 

I think devinthayer was recommending that I start with ashwagandha since I had good results from phenibut...not that I take both at the same time.

 

For ginkgo I'm assuming Ginkgold by Nature's Way would be the best since it uses the patented EGB-761 extract (which from what I've been reading lately is what most of the studies used).  However, for ginseng would this be a good brand to use?  http://www.iherb.com...0-Softgels/2631

[gamesguru]

for ginseng would this be a good brand

 

Don't know.  I've only tried Prince of Peace liquid vials (and whole root purchased at a local market).  It's allegedly grown in Wisconsin and packaged in China.  I find that a bit far-fetched.  Tastes strongly of lead and ginsenosides, 1600mg daily.

 

Your ginkgo looks better than what I bought and I already gave you tea sources, so i'm going to let you make your own decision on the ginseng brand.  Btw it takes 4-6 weeks for the anxiolytic effects to fully develop.

[Heisok]

Interesting. From your posts, I thought you would be taking the Korean Red Ginseng, which is steamed Panax Ginseng. The American Ginseng does have a different makeup. It was a long time ago, but I looked deeply at the subject, but not with computer access. I think you have mentioned not knowing much of a difference. I always felt there was a big difference. The Korean can be over stimulating for me. Not sure how to articulate it, and any research I could provide would be quickly be eclipsed by your work. You do a great job.

 

As far as American Ginseng, I have tried many brands. Fresh wild roots, dried wild roots, dried and fresh roots in alcohol, and water extraction. Home made, and purchased. There is a lot of variability in quality. I think that the roots change in taste as they get older, and presumably higher in Ginsenosides. Some steaming of the American roots changes some concentrations of some Ginsenosides if I remember correctly.

 

The Hardings Ginseng Farm powder and whole roots are excellent, but very expensive.  It has been several years since I have had any, but I trust it will still be quite good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

for ginseng would this be a good brand

 

Don't know.  I've only tried Prince of Peace liquid vials (and whole root purchased at a local market).  It's allegedly grown in Wisconsin and packaged in China.  I find that a bit far-fetched.  Tastes strongly of lead and ginsenosides, 1600mg daily.

 

Your ginkgo looks better than what I bought and I already gave you tea sources, so i'm going to let you make your own decision on the ginseng brand.  Btw it takes 4-6 weeks for the anxiolytic effects to fully develop.

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 30 September 2016 - 11:38 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Phenibut and ash? Omg are you being serious rn Devin, I cant take you srs. Listen stan, you jump on those substances and it's gonna be a huge mistake. Tolerance and Anxiety City. Phenibut is practically one step shy of xanax, and we all know how counterproductive that is. Please stan, if you have your wits about you, go with ginseng and ginkgo. They're proven antagonists at both the GABA_A and GABA_B sites, which would have the exact opposite effect of the questionable recommendation made by the goof above. Including in your stack a japan-sourced tea with lots of theanine^[sources], and one of the above-mentioned magnesium-rich foods is also a good starting point. Much better, even, than something like ash, bacopa, kava, passionflower, or taurine.

I think devinthayer was recommending that I start with ashwagandha since I had good results from phenibut...not that I take both at the same time.

For ginkgo I'm assuming Ginkgold by Nature's Way would be the best since it uses the patented EGB-761 extract (which from what I've been reading lately is what most of the studies used). However, for ginseng would this be a good brand to use? http://www.iherb.com...0-Softgels/2631

Yeah that's exactly what I was saying.

Never tried Phenibut, but I hear it is a great anxiolytic (pretty much that and GVL for legal GABA-B agonists). Ashwagandha does a host of things, including GABA agonism, just in a more general sense. From it's GDNF-like agonistic effects (sominone has on the RET subtype receptor), it activates monoamine production. It has some cholinergic effect for sure, but it all balances really well together I think. Studies show even at low almost pharmacologically inactive doses (like the kind you get in a bottle) it still produces long term stress reduction.

[gamesguru]

it also has moderate dependence liability and causes psychiatric symptoms in abusers.  The very first article I wrote for PeakNoots was about phenibut side effects and withdrawal.  After that, he wanted another article painting it in a positive light but I was so aghast at his credulity I deferred it to another writer.

 

Panax ginseng is steamed, red, Korean ginseng.  That's what you get with Prince of Peace.  American ginseng is a different species, Panax quinquefolius.  I made the mistake of confusing the names in another thread, and 10 people corrected me.  buuut OP, there's one answer.. check out harding farms.

[Heisok]

Stan, the Ginseng extract you linked to uses an extract standardized for 10% of 2 very specific Ginsenosides out of dozens which are in the root. Those two, RB1 and RG1 apparently have been shown to have some cognitive benefits. I have no experience with that brand. It does not appear to be a very high concentration, so could be very safe.

 

"Abstract

Rg1 and Rb1 are two major active compounds of ginseng that facilitate learning and memory. The present study aimed to compare the nootropic effects of Rg1 and Rb1 in a scopolamine induced dementia mice model. After 6 and 12 mg/kg of Rg1 and Rb1 intraperitoneal administration to mice for 7 days, their effects were assessed using the step-down passive avoidance (SD) and the Morris water maze (MWM) tests, the acetylcholinesterase (AChE) activity, acetylcholine (ACh) content and serotonin (5-HT) level in the hippocampus were analysed after SD and MWM tests. The results showed that Rg1 and Rb1 ameliorated cognition-deficiency in mice with dementia. Rg1 showed stronger effects than Rb1 on escape acquisition in MWM. Both Rg1 and Rb1 increased ACh levels in the hippocampus, but Rg1 inhibited AChE activity while Rb1 had no effect on AChE activity. Both Rg1 and Rb1 inhibited the decrease of 5-HT induced by scopolamine, but Rb1 was more active than the same dose of Rg1. These results demonstrate that multiple administrations of Rg1 and Rb1 are effective in improving memory deficiency induced by scopolamine. Rg1 appears to be more potent than Rb1 in improving acquisition impairment, and the two ginsenosides may act through different mechanisms."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20564503

 

 I have had increased anxiety, and very vivid colorful dream/nightmares when I have taken large quantities of a Korean Red Panax Ginseng extract such as this one from ILWHA

 

https://www.amazon.c...YWWYHW01YW&th=1 Be careful.

 

Personally, if I were going to add Ginseng back I would start with an American Ginseng (Panax quinquefolius) There is still some confusion in this thread as much of the Panax Quinquefolius is exported to China from the U.S. and Canada, and sold into that market, or back into the United States.

 

There is a specifically processed American Ginseng which is called Cereboost which has been studied for cognition.

 

"Methods

This randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover trial (N  = 32, healthy young adults) assessed the acute mood, neurocognitive and glycaemic effects of three doses (100, 200 400 mg) of Cereboost™ (P. quinquefolius standardised to 10.65% ginsenosides). Participants' mood, cognitive function and blood glucose were measured 1, 3 and 6 h following administration.

Results

There was a significant improvement of working memory (WM) performance associated with P. quinquefolius. Corsi block performance was improved by all doses at all testing times. There were differential effects of all doses on other WM tasks which were maintained across the testing day. Choice reaction time accuracy and ‘calmness’ were significantly improved by 100 mg. There were no changes in blood glucose levels."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2952762/

 

The only products which I could find were combination products with Synapsa Bacopa  (CogniPrime Advantage), with  Sensoril Ashwagandha and Vinpocetine (Memoril), with coffee, and with Rhodiola ( Pure Encapsulations Cereboost 6-hour) I have had problems with some Rhodiola in the past. I will not use that herb.

 

One of these products might be good to try if you want one with Bacopa, Ashwagandha or Rhodiola as a combination with the Ginseng.

 

Back to the types of Ginseng as there appears to still be confusion. The red of Korean Red Ginseng is a result of the processing of the Panax Ginseng root by steam not all of that species is steam processed.

  "Different forms of true ginseng (Panax ginseng)

Other adjectives, occuring with the word ginseng, distinguish different kinds of true ginseng ...

…by country or origin:

• Korean ginseng — true ginseng (P. ginseng) either grown in Korea, or (more often) grown in China under Korean supervision
• Manchurian ginseng — true ginseng (P. ginseng) from Manchuria
• Chinese ginseng — refers primarily to true ginseng (P. ginseng) from China, although confusion could arise with Panax sinensis J. Wen, which grows in Zhejiang province and whose taxonomical position as a species has been practially confirmed by now.

…by the processing method:

• Red ginseng (ginseng radix rubra) — prepared by steaming and drying the root of true ginseng (P. ginseng; equivalent drug of American ginseng (P. quinquefolius) would be panacis quinquefolii radix rubra.
• White ginseng (ginseng radix alba) — prepared by sun-drying the root of true ginseng (P. ginseng); equivalent drug of American ginseng (P. quinquefolius) would be panacis quinquefolii radix alba.

… or by other details: by age (three-year-old ginseng, six-year-old ginseng, n-year-old), by form (straight ginseng, curved ginseng, branched ginseng)

All of these attributes usually relate to the botanical species of true ginseng (P. ginseng)."

 

http://adaptogens.co...inseng-592.aspx

 

 

 

Edited by Heisok, 01 October 2016 - 04:25 PM.

[gamesguru]

Rg1 reduces dopaminergic oxidation or excitotoxicity. Rb1 I had to make a whole quote for:

“… Rb1 was observed to both increase synaptosomal choline uptake, and stimulate acetylcholine, Rb1 increased expression of rat brain choline acetyltransferase as well as nerve growth factor messenger RNA. Rg1 and Rb1 elicit marked alterations in brain serotonin concentrations…

Other ginsenosides may affect specific physiological mechanisms, including corticosterone secretion by Rd, inhibition of synaptosomal uptake of norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin and GABA by Rd and Re.

These physiological effects are not straightforward, for example two types of… long-term potentiation (LTP) in the rat hippocampus by Rb1 have been observed. Rb1 attenuated the LTP induced by a ‘strong stimulus train’ only, whereas as slightly different (also naturally occurring) variant malonyl-Rb1 facilitated generation of LTP induced by a ‘weaker stimulation’ only.”

 

“… Rg1 exerted a survival-promoting effect on both chick and rat cerebral cortex neurons in cell cultures. Rb1 also had an effect in the rat...

NGF alone exerted no effect, although it did potentiate the Rb1 effect in chicks, but did not alter the GRb1 effect on rat embryonic cerebral cortex neurons.

NGF did not alter the survival-promoting effect of Rg1 in either chick or rat.  The other saponins… exerted no effect”

 

 

It's hard to pick one ginseng.  I would love to take them all.

Which ginseng has the most Rc, Re, and Rg5?

 

Rg5 is important in dementia and cognitive health {see below}.

Re increases frontal dopamine and reverses inflammation across most cell types, while Rd reverses inflammation of dopamine cells {see below}.

 

Rc acts as a GABA_B antagonist^[1].

GABA(A) antagonists include Ginsenoside Rb1, Rb2, Rc, Re, Rf and Rg1, bilobalide, and to a lesser extent ginkgolides.  Also to a small extent, Re and Rf positively modulate the benzodiazepine site.

Ginsenoside Rd attenuates neuroinflammation of dopaminergic cells in culture.
Lin WM1, Zhang YM, Moldzio R, Rausch WD. (2007)

In Parkinson's disease clinical and experimental evidence suggest that neuroinflammatory changes in cytokines caused by microglial activation contribute to neuronal death. Experimentally, neuroinflammation of dopaminergic neurons can be evoked by lipopolysaccharide (LPS) exposure. In mesencephalic primary cultures LPS (100 microg/ml) resulted in 30-50% loss of dendritic processes, changes in the perikarya, cellular atrophy and neuronal cell loss of TH-immunoreactive (TH+) cells. iNOS activity was increased dose dependently as well as prostaglandin E2 concentrations. Ginsenosides, as the active compounds responsible for ginseng action, are reported to have antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects. Here ginsenoside Rd was used to counteract LPS neurodegeneration. Partial reduction of LPS neurotoxic action was seen in dopaminergic neurons. Cell death by LPS as well as neuroprotective action by ginsenoside Rd was not selective for dopaminergic neurons. Neuronal losses as well as cytoprotective effects were similar when counting NeuN identified neurons. The anti-inflammatory effect of ginsenoside Rd could equally be demonstrated by a reduction of NO-formation and PGE2 synthesis. Thus, protective mechanisms of ginsenoside Rd may involve interference with iNOS and COX-2 expression.

Ginsenoside Rg5 improves cognitive dysfunction and beta-amyloid deposition in STZ-induced memory impaired rats via attenuating neuroinflammatory responses.
Chu S, Gu J, Feng L, Liu J, et al. (2014)

Neuroinflammatory responses play a crucial role in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease (AD). Ginsenoside Rg5 (Rg5), an abundant natural compound in Panax ginseng, has been found to be beneficial in treating AD. In the present study, we demonstrated that Rg5 improved cognitive dysfunction and attenuated neuroinflammatory responses in streptozotocin (STZ)-induced memory impaired rats. Cognitive deficits were ameliorated with Rg5 (5, 10 and 20mg/kg) treatment in a dose-dependent manner together with decreased levels of inflammatory cytokines TNF-α and IL-1β (P<0.05) in brains of STZ rats. Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) activity was also significantly reduced by Rg5 whereas choline acetyltransferase (ChAT) activity was remarkably increased in the cortex and hippocampus of STZ-induced AD rats (P<0.05). In addition, Congo red and immunohistochemistry staining results showed that Rg5 alleviated Aβ deposition but enhanced the expressions of insulin-like growth factors 1 (IGF-1) and brain derived neurophic factor (BDNF) in the hippocampus and cerebral cortex (P<0.05). Western blot analysis also demonstrated that Rg5 increased remarkably BDNF and IGF-1 expressions whereas decreased significantly Aβ deposits (P<0.05). Furthermore, it was observed that the expressions of COX-2 and iNOS were significantly up-regulated in STZ-induced AD rats and down-regulated strongly (P<0.05) by Rg5 compared with control rats. These data demonstrated that STZ-induced learning and memory impairments in rats could be improved by Rg5, which was associated with attenuating neuroinflammatory responses. Our findings suggested that Rg5 could be a beneficial agent for the treatment of AD.