23 replies to this topic

[Robert Ramirez]

I have gone back and forth between a starch based diet or a fat based diet but I have always kept my intake of animal protein constant. I have been eating close to a pound everyday now for about 6 years, and although I am not terribly unhealthy, but I did feel reduced athletic performance and foamy urine, as well as body odor, and bad skin. Last week I decided to cut down on animal protein to about four ounces and only in my last meal, and my body odor completely disappeared. I have more energy and I feel less lethargic after meals. Usually when trying to fix an issue I would decrease carbs or fat but never protein. Now I am eating fat and carbs in unlimited quantities, mostly beans, olive oil, avocados, and sweet potatoes.

Protein is rarely seen as a villain and it's always either fat or carbs but I am starting to see things differently. Has anyone had a similar experience?

Edited by Robert Ramirez, 28 October 2016 - 07:39 PM.

[albedo]

Not really a similar experience but your post and the foamy urine comment let me recollect a recent video by Dr Michael Greger related to better kidney health when using plant vs animal protein in particular when looking at the eGFR (kidney filtration rate). Maybe you can be interested to watch:

 

How Not to Die from Kidney Disease

http://nutritionfact...kidney-disease/

(see in particular time 0:50)

 

 

[mccoy]

The whole 'Proteaholic' book from Dr davis garth is full of references on the negative effects of protein excess, especially so animal proteins.

 

Besides, there is the longevity issue. Abundant proteins just appear to trigger anti-longevity metabolic paths like mTOR.

[Oakman]

I can reinforce what you are seeing happen. I'm now 67, but when I was 29 I met an enchanting vegetarian woman, who was also a great cook. Long story short, although I'm not a vegetarian myself at this point, since that time I've never eaten any animal meat other than chicken, plus fish, seafood, and occasionally some pork (I still love bacon in moderation ). But no red meat since, no beef, etc.

 

To your post, one thing that happened very soon when I changed my eating habits was a loss of ~10lbs. And it's stayed off nearly 40 yrs later! But like yourself, my body odor changed from typically not so pleasant, to almost none or none at all, even after extensive sweaty exercise. That's nice in that it keeps clothes 'clean smelling' and avoids embarrassment.  It's not really that surprising that components of what you eat are excreted in your sweat.

 

Be aware if you eat primarily as semi or vegetarian, you may need to supplement things like Carnosine, and some other vitamins/minerals.

Edited by Oakman, 10 November 2016 - 04:23 PM.

[Darryl]

At this moment, protein restriction, especially if it moderates methionine intake via low animal product consumption, appears a foundational element of a longevity diet, at least through middle age. Some key papers/reviews:

 

Nakagawa et al 2012. Comparative and meta‐analytic insights into life extension via dietary restriction. Aging cell, 11(3), pp.401-409.

Here, we report the first comprehensive comparative meta-analysis of dietary restriction (DR) across studies and species. Overall, DR significantly increased lifespan, but this effect is modulated by several factors. In general, DR has less effect in extending lifespan in males and also in non-model organisms. Surprisingly, the proportion of protein intake was more important for life extension via DR than the degree of caloric restriction.

 

 

Levine et al, 2014. Low protein intake is associated with a major reduction in IGF-1, cancer, and overall mortality in the 65 and younger but not older population. Cell metabolism, 19(3), pp.407-417.

The percent of calorie intake from protein was used to categorize subjects into a high protein group (20% or more of calories from proteins), a moderate protein group (10%–19% of calories from proteins), and a low protein group (less than 10% of calories from proteins).

 

Among subjects with no diabetes at baseline, those in the high protein group had a 73-fold increase in risk, while those in the moderate protein category had an almost 23-fold increase in the risk of diabetes mortality.

 

Among those ages 50–65, higher protein levels were linked to significantly increased risks of all-cause and cancer mortality. In this age range, subjects in the high protein group had a 74% increase in their relative risk of all-cause mortality and were more than four times as likely to die of cancer when compared to those in the low protein group. None of these associations was significantly affected by controlling for percent calories from total fat or for percent calories from total carbohydrates.

 

When we controlled for the effect of plant-based protein, there was no change in the association between protein intake and mortality, indicating that high levels of animal proteins promote mortality and not that plant based proteins have a protective effect.

 

 

Mirzaei et al, 2014. Protein and amino acid restriction, aging and disease: from yeast to humans. Trends in Endocrinology & Metabolism, 25(11), pp.558-566.

Protein or essential AA restriction extends both lifespan and healthspan in rodent models. In humans, protein restriction (PR) has been associated with reduced cancer, diabetes, and overall mortality.

 

Solon-Biet et al 2014. The ratio of macronutrients, not caloric intake, dictates cardiometabolic health, aging, and longevity in ad libitum-fed mice. Cell metabolism, 19(3), pp.418-430.

Longevity and health were optimized when protein was replaced with carbohydrate to limit compensatory feeding for protein and suppress protein intake. These consequences are associated with hepatic mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) activation and mitochondrial function and, in turn, related to circulating branched-chain amino acids and glucose. Calorie restriction achieved by high-protein diets or dietary dilution had no beneficial effects on lifespan.

 

I'd probably spend more time on another forum here if it was called dietary restriction, rather than caloric restriction...

Edited by Darryl, 10 November 2016 - 05:34 PM.

[aribadabar]

Darryl,

 

Is there any difference in effect from whey protein compared to (especially red) meat or animal is animal and activates IGF-1/mTOR the same way?

 

Thanks!

[tunt01]

What I've heard some researchers comment on about whey protein is that because it is unbound to any dietary fat it is highly stimulative of IGF-1.  If you were to take a protein powder, I think pea or rice protein would be superior because it is lower in methionine vs. most whey blends.  I would mix it with some kind of dietary fat/shake like avocado/flax milk.

[mccoy]

Whey protein is high in Leucine which is believed to be the aminoacid which most upregulates mTOR (but not the only one). The reason why whey protein is anabolic is probably because it upregulates mTOR in the muscles, with the consequent MPS upregulation. Leucine in excess which has not been sequestered by muscle tissues goes to other cells where mTOR triggers a less beneficial growth than muscle growth.

 

Methionine is believed to be responsible for the upregulation of IGF-1 (together with other signals).

 

As far as I saw, leucine is contained in all proteins, animal and plant-based (legumes), although in different amounts, whereas methionin (which goes hand in hand with cisteine) is definitely more abundant in animal protein.

 

 

 

 

[mccoy]

What I've heard some researchers comment on about whey protein is that because it is unbound to any dietary fat it is highly stimulative of IGF-1.  If you were to take a protein powder, I think pea or rice protein would be superior because it is lower in methionine vs. most whey blends.  I would mix it with some kind of dietary fat/shake like avocado/flax milk.

 

That's very interesting because then Whey protein would upregulate two of the most well known anabolic signals, mTOR and IIS (Insulin+IGF-1). As a matter of fact, whey powder is also considered to be insulinogenic.

 

If MPS (increase of muscle mass) is the priority, then whey powder seems to be the undoubtable best. If MPS is desired without triggering proliferation and growth in the whole system (an anti-longevity effect), probably pea or rice protein, or may be 3 grams pure leucine during workouts, as suggested by Dr Peter Attia in his Youtube video with Rhonda, may be a good strategy.

 

Personally, I steer clear of powders since they are processed food which may have its problems. The pure leucine suggestion is tempting, but that's even more processed and potentially problematic.

 

Lots of natural whey protein can be ingested eating ricotta cheese.

 

Also, apparently, 20 to 30 grams of proteins within 2-3 hours of a workout would be sequestered for MPS hence would not make up an excess, i.e. not be detrimental to health.

[aribadabar]

And if we go further into the dairy proteins- how do you rate whey vs colostrum in terms of overall healthiness?

[misterE]

The reduction of the stinch is caused by reduced intake of sulfur-containing amino-acids (methionine and cysteine): sulfur is stinky. Animal-protein contains much more sulphur-containing animo-acids than plant-protein. I noticed years back, that both my BO and breath smelled much better after reducing my meat intake, plus my farts and BMs are a lot less stinkier too! 

 

Edited by misterE, 12 November 2016 - 02:39 AM.

[misterE]

 

 

Is there any difference in effect from whey protein compared to (especially red) meat or animal is animal and activates IGF-1/mTOR the same way?

 

 

 

 

Milk-protein stimulates both insulin and IGF-1 much more than meat-protein. There is quite a bit of research showing this. Milk-protein has an amino-acid configuration designed specifically to trigger anabolic-hormone production like insulin and IGF-1.

[mccoy]

 

 

 

Is there any difference in effect from whey protein compared to (especially red) meat or animal is animal and activates IGF-1/mTOR the same way?

 

 

 

 

Milk-protein stimulates both insulin and IGF-1 much more than meat-protein. There is quite a bit of research showing this. Milk-protein has an amino-acid configuration designed specifically to trigger anabolic-hormone production like insulin and IGF-1.

 

 

A little OT, but...

 

That's logically sensible. Milk being the specific food meant for growth of mammals. 

 

Also it's Interesting from your remarks to assume that research is showing that meat protein does not yield the best anabolic effect. I used to lift weight and became pretty muscular. Since I'm a vegetarian people believed I was on hormones. Actually, my natural anabolic hormones were thick smoothies with ricotta cheese, milk, egg yolks, honey. I understand now that they did not contain hormones by themselves (except the hormones fed to cows possibly, if it was not already forbidden at those times) but the concoction, in large quantities,  was a powerful upregulator of some metabolic growth-enhancing pathways , like mTOR and IIS (Insulin-IGF-1)

 

To return IT, the rationale of keeping good health in relation to protein consumption would be to avoid abundance or excess of all proteins, especially so animal proteins.

 

Pls note excess is an individual concept because of the known variability in minimum protein requirements. Usually (more precisely in 97.5% of people) excess starts beyond 0.8 g/kg/d of ideal body weight (different than lean body weight), that's the protein RDA. Plus a delta to consider exercise. Some people though, and this is a fact not much discussed, may ingest excess protein even by that 0.8 g/kg/d amount. 

 

Another known issue is the detrimental effects of an excess of animal protein on kidneys and joints.

Edited by mccoy, 12 November 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[Robert Ramirez]

The reduction of the stinch is caused by reduced intake of sulfur-containing amino-acids (methionine and cysteine): sulfur is stinky. Animal-protein contains much more sulphur-containing animo-acids than plant-protein. I noticed years back, that both my BO and breath smelled much better after reducing my meat intake, plus my farts and BMs are a lot less stinkier too!

I figured it was the reduction in sulfur containing proteins that improved my body odor. I'm still going strong and this diet is much cheaper and easier on the dishes. I found I am still consuming quite a bit of protein, about 115 grams, though down from the usual 150 grams I usually consume. However, now most of my protein intake is from plants (various beans and lentils) where as before 90% of my intake came from animal products. The biggest benefit this change in diet has had is the increase in athletic performance. I feel amazing. I can run for days without feeling an ounce of fatigue. I guess the large bump in glucose intake helps, but I had done this before, except without the reduction in meat, and I didn't get the same improvement in performance as this time around. The only downfalls is my increase in flatulence.

[misterE]

The only downfalls is my increase in flatulence.

 

 

 

The flatulence is caused by the fermentation of fiber and starch in the intestines. The bacteria there feed off of that and produce SCFA (short chain fatty acids) which are extremely healthy for you. Once you develop more good bacteria in your gut, the flatulence should subside somewhat.

 

Starch based diet for the win!

Edited by misterE, 13 November 2016 - 04:40 AM.

[misterE]

 

 

Also it's Interesting from your remarks to assume that research is showing that meat protein does not yield the best anabolic effect. I used to lift weight and became pretty muscular. Since I'm a vegetarian people believed I was on hormones. Actually, my natural anabolic hormones were thick smoothies with ricotta cheese, milk, egg yolks, honey. I understand now that they did not contain hormones by themselves (except the hormones fed to cows possibly, if it was not already forbidden at those times) but the concoction, in large quantities,  was a powerful upregulator of some metabolic growth-enhancing pathways , like mTOR and IIS (Insulin-IGF-1)

 

To return IT, the rationale of keeping good health in relation to protein consumption would be to avoid abundance or excess of all proteins, especially so animal proteins.

 

Pls note excess is an individual concept because of the known variability in minimum protein requirements. Usually (more precisely in 97.5% of people) excess starts beyond 0.8 g/kg/d of ideal body weight (different than lean body weight), that's the protein RDA. Plus a delta to consider exercise. Some people though, and this is a fact not much discussed, may ingest excess protein even by that 0.8 g/kg/d amount. 

 

Another known issue is the detrimental effects of an excess of animal protein on kidneys and joints.

 

 

Not only does protein rich in essential amino-acids stimulate anabolism, also calorie balance. Eating an excess of energy also stimulates the release of anabolic hormones as well. Eating a calorie deficit does the opposite obviously. 

 

I would agree that for the most part, protein should be about 10 to 15% of the calories consumed, most of which should be plant-protein. Perhaps more animal-protein (milk protein) if undergoing strenuous exercise or need to build/repair the body. Excess protein can be a very serious issue...

[vader]

The reduction of the stinch is caused by reduced intake of sulfur-containing amino-acids (methionine and cysteine): sulfur is stinky. Animal-protein contains much more sulphur-containing animo-acids than plant-protein. I noticed years back, that both my BO and breath smelled much better after reducing my meat intake, plus my farts and BMs are a lot less stinkier too! 

 

Agreed, but some plant foods like peanuts also cause stinky farts.

[TheFountain]

You must have also reduced your intake of Cruciferous vegetables too if your body odor smelled better. Since they are some of the highest foods in Sulfur! 

[Polyamine]

My opinion differs somewhat in regards to protein not being a villain.  I am far from anti-protein, IMO, it made humans what we are today.  I am against the over consumption of protein, primarily animal protein and other phenylalanine containing foods.  As we age in American, our Western Diet rich in animal protein sets an unfavorable stage for the bacteria and yeasts in our GI tract.  As protein consumption increases, so do gram negative anaerobe levels in our GI tract.  As their levels increase, beneficial gram positive bacteria like Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus have a decrease in numbers.  This is unfavorable for optimal health.  Our energy expenditure should dictate how much protein we eat and even how much nitrogen we eat.  It should not be eaten daily IMO and certainly not every meal like is common with the typical Western Diet.    

[TheFountain]

.  As we age in American, our Western Diet rich in animal protein sets an unfavorable stage for the bacteria and yeasts in our GI tract. 

 

Eat Kimchi and sauerkraut regularly. 

 

Edited by TheFountain, 07 June 2017 - 07:36 PM.

[misterE]

 

 

 

Eat Kimchi and sauerkraut regularly. 

 

 

 

 

Or foods high in fiber and resistant-starch... such as: beans, whole-grains, potatoes, fruits and vegetables.

[Darryl]

Relisten to the Sonnenburgs rather limited endorsement of prebiotics/fermented foods, primarily as temporary "placeholders" that can deter pathogens in immediate aftermath of a course of antibiotics.

 

The microbial species that predominate in kimchi, sauerkraut and other fermented foods are very minor constituents of the gut microbiome. Fermented food advocates don't have much support in the literature for lasting positive effects on the colonic microbiota. I found a couple studies where bacterial RNA from fermented foods could be detected in feces, but as with probiotics, they don't compete effectively with established populations and disappear after the interventions. 

 

The greatest effect of fermented foods may in fact be antimicrobial, as bacteria and yeast compete in a state of constant chemical warfare, producing bacteriocins and nisins, often targeting closely related strains. Eg Kimchi: 1, 2, 3, 4; kombucha: 5, 6; sauerkraut: 7; tempeh: 8

Little of the antimicrobial proteins from fermenters would make their way to the colon, so I'd mostly expect a benefit to dental health.

 

Among the species that both comprise a large fraction of healthy colon microbiota and are generally considered beneficial, only *Bifidobacterium longum* is available as a probiotic. Others, like Akkermansia mucinophila, Faecalbacterium prauznitzi, and Roseburia, are introduced with general exposure to a non-sterile environment, and avoidance of unnecessary antibiotics. One feeds them with microbiota available carbohydrates, mostly from beans, bulbs, and bran.

• galactans: beans, though little in green beans, tofu or tempeh.

• fructans: white parts of all Allium bulb vegetables (garlic, leeks, onion, shallot, scallion), particularly raw or lightly cooked, some crucifers (broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage), raddichio, snow peas, modest amounts in asparagus, peppers, beets, and okra

• inulin (a longer chain fructan): chicory, jerusalem and globe artichokes

• arabinoxylans: wheat, barley, and rye bran, and grain products made with these

• resistant starch: a high fraction of some raw starches (potato starch or green banana), moderate amounts in some unleavened flatbreads (eg, maize tortillas), as well as starches that have undergone retrogradation (eg, cooked then slowly cooled potatoes, pasta and porridges). 

 

Bringing the discussion back to the topic of dietary protein, here's a very intriguing study which found excess protein intake could shift the colonic microbiota towards a community with potentially pathogenic species that rely on exogenous dietary protein, and away from a more beneficial community that relies on host-provided mucin production (eg centered on Akkermansia). Unfortunately, the graphical abstract is a lot clearer than most of its verbiage.

 

Holmes et al., 2017. Diet-microbiome interactions in health are controlled by intestinal nitrogen source constraints. Cell metabolism, 25(1), pp.140-151.

 

[tunt01]

Interesting paper.  I wish there was a 45-60 min video presentation by the authors walking through the data and material.  When I go from reading papers on concepts like mitochondria or glycolysis to something like gut/microbiome it's like being transported to another world where I know almost nothing.

 

Does anyone know a good primer or overview for gut microbiome?  Maybe a MOOC course or youtube video?

Edited by prophets, 12 July 2017 - 06:33 PM.

[Oakman]

Interesting paper.  I wish there was a 45-60 min video presentation by the authors walking through the data and material.  When I go from reading papers on concepts like mitochondria or glycolysis to something like gut/microbiome it's like being transported to another world where I know almost nothing.

 

Does anyone know a good primer or overview for gut microbiome?  Maybe a MOOC course or youtube video?

 

Amazon (free w/Prime) has the best microbiome vids I've watched like "The Gut: Our Second Brain"  and there are others... also -

 

Lot's of text search results, but a couple for you...

 

http://www.sciencedi...009898115000170

 

http://www.thehealth...uman-Health.pdf

 

http://gut.bmj.com/c...jnl-2015-309990