13 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

So Mg Threonate is a wonderful addition to having all of the long term memory genes, but anytime I use it continuously it aggravates my joint problems. I produce what might be considered an overabundance of dopamine and oxytocin, so I tend waste calcium like nobody's business and this probably results in a mineral imbalance that deprives my bones and joints of Ca. So it turns out someone has already invented Ca l threonate for joint issues, and perhaps it has cognitive enhancement benefits. 

 

I have quite a stock of various calciums and magnesiums, that I have lots of experience with and we haven't paid much attention to this one, which could be a better cognitive enhancer than the magnesium form imo.  So I'll be sharing my experience with it. I'll also be taking it along with a variety of other joint supplements. which all work to some extent, but just not well enough. I'll also be taking PLE. 

 

Follow and see if I'm right.

[Heisok]

Hello Yolf, I hope you are well, thinking clearly and sharp as a tack!

 

Any conclusions yet with your trial?

 

Thanks!

[YOLF]

You know? I didn't experience a cognitive improvement from it. It certainly worked for joints/bone, and I haven't tried it with a lower dose of Mg Threonate yet to see if I could get the benefits at a lower dose. But I have been experimenting with some gluten free baking mixes with some rarish grains as a regular powdered foodstuff (not adding extra oils or eggs, they aren't good for me) and it's gotten rid of virtually all of the joint pain. Part of it is likely to do with the alkaline nature of baking mixes (soy lecithin and baking soda are very alkaline), and it's removing a need for alot of the supps I take... I'm in a bit of a limbo trying to adjust my regimen for this new "miracle" foodstuff I've discovered. But I'll try taking the MG Threo tonight and tell you if it causes joint pain again or not.

[Heisok]

Thanks YOLF.

[YOLF]

No joint pain as of right now. I wonder what the pH of Threonic Acid is...

[Ames]

Not to cut in on YOLF's thread, but I seem to get a significant mood stabilization (reduction in and resistance to anxiety) and even a slight mood lift when I combine calcium carbonate with the mag threonate that I take. It's much more significant than mag threonate on its own. On it's own, the mag threonate will reduce (nor)adrenaline a bit, and calm/sedate me, but it doesn't lift mood nor do I feel that my low anxiety state is much more stable. The anxiety is merely briefly reduced. The combination of the Cal and the Mag seems to lift mood a bit, and seems to make it more stable (the more significant effect).

 

Though, the first time that I combined the mag threonate and calcium carbonate I felt as if I had a dirty stimulant hangover (too much calcium in the brain). I likely took too much calcium that time, which may be combining with the threonate in the gut for increased transport across the BBB. This time, I only took a small dab of calcium along with my usual small dab of mag threonate. I can't tolerate more mag threonate than that without becoming excessively fatigued later in the day.

 

I'm going to keep testing, but I really like the mag threonate / calcium carbonate stack for now (at 3-10 mg dose each). I might later  again try a larger amount of calcium with the mag threonate to see if I can duplicate the effect of the first time (the dirty stim effect that came with a much more marked mood stabilization), and to see if I wasn't imagining any of the effects that seemed to occur. If I can duplicate the effect, then I'll begin experimenting with differing doses of calcium to find an optimal dose to add with the mag threonate. I'll also be observing whether or not the addition of calcium reduces the unwanted effect of the mag threonate causing me to tire to the point of needing a nap several hours after I take it for any amount other than a couple of milligrams at most.

 

Given my experience, I would warn anyone in taking too much calcium with mag threonate at first. Or possibly in taking too much store-bought calcium threonate. The possibly increased calcium absorption, and its neurological effects, may be something that you aren't expecting. In other words, my advice is that you won't lose anything by going slow and building toward a higher dose. Start with a pinch or less. Though others, who are less sensitive, may not perceive such effects.

 

It might be worth noting that after years of supplement experimentation, and boxes full of thousands of dollars of supplements / noots, the mag threonate, along with a methylfolate / B12 stack, are all that have stood the test of time in terms of regular or semi-regular use (unfortunately along with NSAIDs as necessary but also less and less frequently). Calcium may or may not end up becoming a semi-permanent member of that list.

Edited by golgi1, 08 April 2017 - 02:17 AM.

[gamesguru]

I can also suggest starting low and tapering up.  Or even just staying low.  I use mineral water, each 750mL bottle supplies 260mg of calcium and 80mg of magnesium.  I can confirm that drinking more than 1.5 bottles at work induces a sort of fatigue or cognitive dullness.  They are calming agents, GABA agents, with something in common with cough syrup.  Enough negatives though.. I've found magneisum has a chronic and acute component, so you have to take it like at least every other day for a few months to notice full effects.  For the joint pain I would also try ginger and moderate exercise

[Ames]

I noticed some neuro-inflammatory symptoms last night that I attribute to the calcium (again, I'm sensitive in that sense). Thus, I'm not going to press any further with it. I enjoy the stimulation, but I can't abide the cost. Again, I'd caution people to be careful with combining calcium and threonate, but especially if you have any (inflammatory) neurological or cardiac issues.

 

A last note on the magnesium threonate. I may have undersold it a bit for anxiety. As I before stated, it only mildly reduces anxiety but, as gamesguru points out, there is both a chronic and an acute effect. The chronic effect for me, with magnesium threonate, is pretty exciting. What I have found is that it does, indeed (see the below study), stop the over-generalization of fear (anxiety). Anxiety becoming progressively overly generalized with time, instead of dissipating, is my experience with it. Over time, anxiety began to invade my sleep and peak during my waking period. I have found that the mag threonate has seemed to reduce this effect to where clinical anxiety is not noticeable on many mornings when it otherwise would be (given my dreams, the general pattern, etc). I also suspect that it is making me a more calm communicator in general (others may not notice a large difference, but I do in how my brain reacts when I listen to others speak, and then in how I am able to consider my response to a greater extent), as part of the chronic effect that may be reducing a subconscious amount of anxiety in how I perceive the world in general. I will attempt to continue to monitor this perceived effect specifically.

 

I'm going to keep taking the mag threonate consistently, and I'll report back if its effect on generalized anxiety seems to improve further with time. Currently, I take it roughly every other day. This is the schedule that allows me to stay ahead of any cumulative sedating effect that the mag threonate has. 

 

 

http://journals.lww...._context.3.aspx

 

Magnesium supplement enhances spatial-context pattern separation and prevents fear overgeneralization

 

Enhancement of pattern separation could be helpful in improving the quality of normal daily learning and in treating individuals with cognitive impairment and certain psychiatric disorders. Previously, we have shown that elevating brain magnesium, by a novel magnesium compound (magnesium-L-threonate; MgT), enhances extinction of fear memory without enhancing amygdala-dependent fear memory. Here, we investigated the effects of MgT treatment on contextual-fear memory and subsequent pattern separation. Sprague–Dawley male rats were treated with MgT for 4 weeks and memory was evaluated using a spatial-context fear conditioning task. The pattern separation ability of MgT-treated rats was assessed using a spatial-context-discrimination task. MgT treatment did not enhance the retention of contextual-fear memory. Interestingly, the ability to discriminate between two, more or less distinct, contexts was enhanced in MgT-treated rats. Our results suggest that elevation of brain magnesium might be helpful in enhancing spatial-context discrimination and/or pattern separation besides preventing aversive-event-induced overgeneralization of fear.

 

 

 

 

http://www.sciencedi...091305713000658

 

Chronic dietary magnesium-L-threonate speeds extinction and reduces spontaneous recovery of a conditioned taste aversion 

 

Elevation of brain magnesium enhances synaptic plasticity and extinction of conditioned fear memories. This experiment examined the generalizability of this phenomenon by studying the effects of a novel magnesium compound, magnesium-L-threonate (MgT), on conditioned taste aversion (CTA) extinction and spontaneous recovery (SR). Adult male Sprague–Dawley rats were maintained on a 23-hour water deprivation cycle and acquired a CTA following the taste of a CS [0.3% saccharin + 16 mg/ml MgT (SAC + MgT)] paired with a US [81 mg/kg (i.p.) lithium chloride (LiCl)]. Following CTA acquisition, rats drank a water + MgT solution for up to 1 hour/day over the next 31 days. For 14 additional days, some animals continued water + MgT treatment, but others drank water only to allow MgT to be eliminated from the body. We then employed 2 different extinction paradigms: (1) CS-Only (CSO), in which SAC was presented, every-other day, or (2) Explicitly Unpaired (EU), in which both SAC and LiCl were presented, but on alternate days. EU extinction procedures have been shown to speed CTA extinction and reduce spontaneous recovery of the aversion. Throughout extinction, half of the rats in each group continued to drink MgT (now in SAC or supplemental water + MgT solution), whereas the other half drank SAC only/water only until SAC drinking reached ≥ 90% of baseline (asymptotic extinction). Rats receiving MgT just before/during extinction drank less SAC on the first day of extinction suggesting that they had retained a stronger CTA. MgT enhanced the rate of extinction. Furthermore, the MgT-treated rats showed a relatively modest SR of the CTA 30 days later — indicating that the extinction procedure was more effective for these animals. Our data suggest that long-term dietary MgT may enhance the consolidation/retention of a CTA, speed extinction, and inhibit SR of this learned aversion

 

Edited by golgi1, 08 April 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[gamesguru]

The last one is relevant to ginkgo and ptsd-like stuff.  Ginkgo can prime you to bad memories and generally make you a bitch.  Magnesium is poised against this due to tonifying effects on gaba, da, 5-ht

[YOLF]

Not to cut in on YOLF's thread, but I seem to get a significant mood stabilization (reduction in and resistance to anxiety) and even a slight mood lift when I combine calcium carbonate with the mag threonate that I take. It's much more significant than mag threonate on its own. On it's own, the mag threonate will reduce (nor)adrenaline a bit, and calm/sedate me, but it doesn't lift mood nor do I feel that my low anxiety state is much more stable. The anxiety is merely briefly reduced. The combination of the Cal and the Mag seems to lift mood a bit, and seems to make it more stable (the more significant effect).

 

Though, the first time that I combined the mag threonate and calcium carbonate I felt as if I had a dirty stimulant hangover (too much calcium in the brain). I likely took too much calcium that time, which may be combining with the threonate in the gut for increased transport across the BBB. This time, I only took a small dab of calcium along with my usual small dab of mag threonate. I can't tolerate more mag threonate than that without becoming excessively fatigued later in the day.

 

I'm going to keep testing, but I really like the mag threonate / calcium carbonate stack for now (at 3-10 mg dose each). I might later  again try a larger amount of calcium with the mag threonate to see if I can duplicate the effect of the first time (the dirty stim effect that came with a much more marked mood stabilization), and to see if I wasn't imagining any of the effects that seemed to occur. If I can duplicate the effect, then I'll begin experimenting with differing doses of calcium to find an optimal dose to add with the mag threonate. I'll also be observing whether or not the addition of calcium reduces the unwanted effect of the mag threonate causing me to tire to the point of needing a nap several hours after I take it for any amount other than a couple of milligrams at most.

 

Given my experience, I would warn anyone in taking too much calcium with mag threonate at first. Or possibly in taking too much store-bought calcium threonate. The possibly increased calcium absorption, and its neurological effects, may be something that you aren't expecting. In other words, my advice is that you won't lose anything by going slow and building toward a higher dose. Start with a pinch or less. Though others, who are less sensitive, may not perceive such effects.

 

It might be worth noting that after years of supplement experimentation, and boxes full of thousands of dollars of supplements / noots, the mag threonate, along with a methylfolate / B12 stack, are all that have stood the test of time in terms of regular or semi-regular use (unfortunately along with NSAIDs as necessary but also less and less frequently). Calcium may or may not end up becoming a semi-permanent member of that list.

Well, I think time of day and distance of dosing with calcium is generally important is it not? I've been eating some almonds at night and taking some slowly absorbed mg and ca foods. But I will admit the MgT is WOW in terms of effects. I think in general that anthocyanins are also very important and very effective long term. The effects of DMAE or centrophenoxine are also long lasting, even if you only take it periodically. 

 

B12 worked for me when I was wasn't absorbing much due to undiagnosed food allergies, many of which turned out to be underrepresented as food allergens and aren't generally well known. After that, I haven't seen any benefits at all from taking it or any other stuff, though perhaps as a substrate it can be useful for improving methylation if you take the unmethylated forms. I think that gives me more motivation over methylfolate if the doses are small enough. 

 

Mg Threonate still worries me. I'm going to encapsulate my supply and take it as pills spaced throughout the day and see if it works to alleviate the side effects I was experiencing.

[YOLF]

I can also suggest starting low and tapering up.  Or even just staying low.  I use mineral water, each 750mL bottle supplies 260mg of calcium and 80mg of magnesium.  I can confirm that drinking more than 1.5 bottles at work induces a sort of fatigue or cognitive dullness.  They are calming agents, GABA agents, with something in common with cough syrup.  Enough negatives though.. I've found magneisum has a chronic and acute component, so you have to take it like at least every other day for a few months to notice full effects.  For the joint pain I would also try ginger and moderate exercise

I was taking it with ginger and doing moderate exercise :(

[YOLF]

 

I noticed some neuro-inflammatory symptoms last night that I attribute to the calcium (again, I'm sensitive in that sense). Thus, I'm not going to press any further with it. I enjoy the stimulation, but I can't abide the cost. Again, I'd caution people to be careful with combining calcium and threonate, but especially if you have any (inflammatory) neurological or cardiac issues.

 

Why? I've had great experience with taking CaThreonate. It seems to work phenomenally for joint pain, but it doesn't go well with MgT and it will cancel the effects of it. Last I read it was able to be absorbed readily without D3, so this reduced the risks of developing sclerosis of the cardiovascular system and helped to rebuild bone density in arthritis patients. 

 

But maybe you meant Calcium and Mg Threonate?

[Ames]

 

 

 

B12 worked for me when I was wasn't absorbing much due to undiagnosed food allergies, many of which turned out to be underrepresented as food allergens and aren't generally well known. After that, I haven't seen any benefits at all from taking it or any other stuff, though perhaps as a substrate it can be useful for improving methylation if you take the unmethylated forms. I think that gives me more motivation over methylfolate if the doses are small enough. 

 

 

 

I take an un-methylated form of B12 (hydroxocobalamin) so as not to over-methylate while taking methylfolate, and the B12 is necessary to keep the folate working. The science of it is explained in another thread here. If you're interested, let me know and I'll dig it up.

 

Why? I've had great experience with taking CaThreonate. It seems to work phenomenally for joint pain, but it doesn't go well with MgT and it will cancel the effects of it. Last I read it was able to be absorbed readily without D3, so this reduced the risks of developing sclerosis of the cardiovascular system and helped to rebuild bone density in arthritis patients. 

 

But maybe you meant Calcium and Mg Threonate?

 

I did mean calcium and Mag Threonate, though I would expect Cal Threoante to do the same thing. As I stated above, I get felt symptoms of a stimulant hangover (which I can take) as well as neuroinflammatory (and a hint of cardiac) symptoms (which I can't take) from what I perceive to be Calcium attaching to threonate in the gut, from ingestion of Calcium and Mag threonate together, and thus becoming absorbed at a much higher rate. Again, these were my felt effects. I have a neuro-inflammatory issue for almost twenty years now, and so I may have a lesser tolerance for detecting such action as pathological than others might. If my symptoms did not exceed a certain threshold, I'd keep taking it for the benefits. Others may never perceive such symptoms to any threshold. 

 

Edited by golgi1, 09 April 2017 - 12:55 AM.

[gamesguru]

 

 For the joint pain I would also try ginger and moderate exercise

I was taking it with ginger and doing moderate exercise :(

 

 

in that case sir, i would like to know how good of shape you are in?  can you, for instance, jump a rope?  can you make love to the elliptical machine for at least 9 minutes, at 9.0 mph and resistance setting 9 (of 24)?  bonus points if you can do it for 18 without breaking a sweat

 

also consider upping the ginger. adding turmeric, avocado, fish/flax, AND magnesium

 

why the caps.  because it is one of the more important ones, not to be overlooked...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2265739/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3410963/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4586582/

 

cause shit man, if you take all of that you'll defniitely be cured. if you still have problems i would really have to start pulling tricks out of my hat heh