49 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

 

As long as the involvement of a lot of people is an important requisit for something to work, it will be wandering in the utopic limbo rather than the pragmatic one. If getting the required people together to be in favor of something good was easy task we wouldn't have kids that starve to death, etc.

I don't think you are describing what "utopic" is just what an "idea" is. If I am an architect with all the resources I need, I can plan a building and that is not utopic is just a model of something I know can be accomplished.

 

 

Best regards.

Sebastian.

 

 

Involvement of people is important maybe for everything the mankind ever made. Many of the things you see arround you are an evolvement of people. I don't think for example, that you built the town where you live - all of the buildings, the schools, routes, etc. Nor you have made all of the models of the cars - from the first to the last for all of the car companies. The idea, that a frozen corpse can be revived in the distant future, even if it was not frozen properly is both utopic and pragmatic before you proove without any doubt one of the above. To suppas the threshold, you need to make something utopically new to work, you need many people working for it, but the labour may be spread along the years. E.g. you may need the constant work of 1 000 000 people to make it happen for an year, or the constant work of 100 people to make it happen in ten thousand years.

 

How about when you make something that does not exist at all? Like patentng something? For example people from the past wanted to fly quite a long time ago. Much long before the firs air baloon. The people before the air baloon thought this idea of flying man is an extreme form of utopia. Now we know we can fly. There are passenger airplanes. Everyone can fly. Was (before the hot air baloon) the dream of flying utopia, since it is possible?

Same is valid for the cryonics. Its not working today. But there are people, who dream about it, and work for it, so you never know when the treshold of work and mind needed will be passed and the cryonics will become a reality. Corpses frozen now even unapropriately may be able to be thawed and revived in the distant future, if they somehow are available when the threshold is passed.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Here is another issue (and probably an important one) for both the cost effective area as well as the social perspective: OVERPOPULATION.

 

.....

 

 

PS: It's funny that I came here to learn about nootropics and ask questions as a newbie and didn't get any replies on my threads but ended up discussing a topic in a thread I entered by chance.

 

Overpopulation is a mater of uncontrolled birth rates, e.g. a matter of uncontrolled multiplication. Not a matter of length of life. Imagine this: all people arround the world become immortal, right now, in this very second. And no new babies are born since that moment. There is a place for everyone.

 

See the current situation now - we live in a mortal society. The countries, that flow the world with people are those, where the length of life is the shortest. The countries which contribute to overpopulatio the least are exactly those with the higher average length of life.

 

Uncontrolled multiplication of biomass is always extremely dangerous. In your body it will be named a cancer. If you want to do something against the overpopulation of the planet, then make the blacks, the yellows and the gipsies to stop multiply uncontrollably.

 

 

Most probabbly you didn't get any replies, because you want a cheap nootropic, that will make you a superbrain without even one side effect.

The 3 are an utopia in your views lol

 

Edited by seivtcho, 19 December 2016 - 08:33 AM.

[saj87]

 

Here is another issue (and probably an important one) for both the cost effective area as well as the social perspective: OVERPOPULATION.

 

.....

 

 

PS: It's funny that I came here to learn about nootropics and ask questions as a newbie and didn't get any replies on my threads but ended up discussing a topic in a thread I entered by chance.

 

Overpopulation is a mater of uncontrolled birth rates, e.g. a matter of uncontrolled multiplication. Not a matter of length of life. Imagine this: all people arround the world become immortal, right now, in this very second. And no new babies are born since that moment. There is a place for everyone.

 

See the current situation now - we live in a mortal society. The countries, that flow the world with people are those, where the length of life is the shortest. The countries which contribute to overpopulatio the least are exactly those with the higher average length of life.

 

Uncontrolled multiplication of biomass is always extremely dangerous. In your body it will be named a cancer. If you want to do something against the overpopulation of the planet, then make the blacks, the yellows and the gipsies to stop multiply uncontrollably.

 

 

Most probabbly you didn't get any replies, because you want a cheap nootropic, that will make you a superbrain without even one side effect.

The 3 are an utopia in your views lol

 

 

Lol. Before reaching the end of the post (having read the beggining of this one -and the post above-) I asked myself "is he/she just trying to argue against everything I say or just make a geniune debate?". Reading the end, I am pretty sure is the former.

 

First, what I said was not "maybe/possibly this would be a problem", no, it will be clearly a problem. As you said, can you prove otherwise without saying anything like "In the future we will also have all the resources -read food, water, energy- issues solved" or recurring to any magical situation like "reproduction will cease", nor alluding to any xenophobic/antisemite train of thought like "well, maybe we will just kill all the blacks/yellows/gypsies and done" ?.

 

Lets say that I grant you the "overpopulation is the result of uncontrolled birth rate", well, ok ... it is ... NOW. You can't say the problem is cryonics because it does not work yet, right? When the time comes, if it does, it will. So if you already have that problem for the reason you stated, do the math and tell me what happens. Also, we are just talking here about "space" not so much about exhaustion of resources (that could be in a worse state by the time you come back to life)

 

As I see it, the only really viable argument you can do against this issue, without resorting to speculation or hocus-pocus, is "the cost of cryonics will be high enough to exclude the majority of the population -middle class down-" and you will be accepting one of the arguments against cryonics depicted in the diagram the OP posted.

 

As a "mental exercise", if you can give a good solution to the above, there is still the dilemma of asking yourself what is more important to fund right now, cryonics or research in areas that could solve problems of food, water, energy, and other resources?. Should we all unite for this, RIGHT NOW, or if we are going to get united for something is better to ask our goverments to invest on renewable energy and stop our dependance (at least to a great extent) in fossil fuel? This can already be done if they want. Look at Costa Rica, using 100% of renewable energy and at this amazing talk about how a country (Qatar) overcame water shortage https://www.ted.com/...ter?language=es, (including the guy's view on issues like what things they would have to consider when their population grows).

 

 

Finally, no ... I didn't ask for a "cheap nootropic that will turn me into Superman without any side effect", it would have been nice of to look for my threads without making any assumption and using it as sarcasm. Though, if you know of such a nootropic please tell me, who wouldn't want that?.

 

 

Best regards.

Sebastian.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Lol. Before reaching the end of the post (having read the beggining of this one -and the post above-) I asked myself "is he/she just trying to argue against everything I say or just make a geniune debate?". Reading the end, I am pretty sure is the former.

 

First, what I said was not "maybe/possibly this would be a problem", no, it will be clearly a problem. As you said, can you prove otherwise without saying anything like "In the future we will also have all the resources -read food, water, energy- issues solved" or recurring to any magical situation like "reproduction will cease", nor alluding to any xenophobic/antisemite train of thought like "well, maybe we will just kill all the blacks/yellows/gypsies and done" ?.

 

Lets say that I grant you the "overpopulation is the result of uncontrolled birth rate", well, ok ... it is ... NOW. You can't say the problem is cryonics because it does not work yet, right? When the time comes, if it does, it will. So if you already have that problem for the reason you stated, do the math and tell me what happens. Also, we are just talking here about "space" not so much about exhaustion of resources (that could be in a worse state by the time you come back to life)

 

As I see it, the only really viable argument you can do against this issue, without resorting to speculation or hocus-pocus, is "the cost of cryonics will be high enough to exclude the majority of the population -middle class down-" and you will be accepting one of the arguments against cryonics depicted in the diagram the OP posted.

 

As a "mental exercise", if you can give a good solution to the above, there is still the dilemma of asking yourself what is more important to fund right now, cryonics or research in areas that could solve problems of food, water, energy, and other resources?. Should we all unite for this, RIGHT NOW, or if we are going to get united for something is better to ask our goverments to invest on renewable energy and stop our dependance (at least to a great extent) in fossil fuel? This can already be done if they want. Look at Costa Rica, using 100% of renewable energy and at this amazing talk about how a country (Qatar) overcame water shortage https://www.ted.com/...ter?language=es, (including the guy's view on issues like what things they would have to consider when their population grows).

 

 

Finally, no ... I didn't ask for a "cheap nootropic that will turn me into Superman without any side effect", it would have been nice of to look for my threads without making any assumption and using it as sarcasm. Though, if you know of such a nootropic please tell me, who wouldn't want that?.

 

 

Best regards.

Sebastian.

 

 

Its "he" the one on the other side in our conversation lol. I very seldom say my real name, but nevertheless, nice to meet you!

 

I am not exactly arguing with everything you say. I am simply writting the things as they are, or at least as I think they are in the current reality. Arguing with everything you write is only a side effect from a small clash between two types of thinking.

 

Overpopulation really is the result of an uncontrolled birth rate, not a result of the length of life. Thats the true wish it or not. So being immortal will not result in an overpopulation. The only needed is requireing a choice that everyone should have - being mortal and allowed to have children, or being immortal and not allowed to have any more children. And this is only temporary before we learn to live in the cosmos. There si enough space for everyone ... in the space.

 

The problem for the food, water, energy, etc. for the overpopulating countries is a completely different topic and you will not like my oppinion on it. And it is not connected with the cryonics or with whatever else technology, that has to be developed. Nevertheless I will tell you my oppinion on this.

That problems for these countries are because these countries have allowed a scenario of a local overpopulation. Each cuntry must know how many people can support with its resources and not allow being overpopulated. If the food in some African republic is a severe problem, then this means, that this African country can't support that many people and shoul not have allowed that number of people residing there. They have overpopulated their lands and has depleted their resources. Its their problem, they to solve it themselves. If they have to starve out to death, because of that, let them starve to death. I don't care. You shouldn't either. Because if you give your food and resources to them, the only thing you will receive is that they will multiply even more and both them and you will be left without food. But as a side result they will want your food too. Thats why I don't care for overpopulating societies. I view them as you probabbly view the cancer cells.

The overpopulaion is the cancer of the modern society. How will you trat it? Well, I leave that to your imagination.

[Antonio2014]

 

I was away some months from the forum due to this, too many not-even-wrong level posts. I'll probably be away some months again. While there is a 1% of users that one can discuss with, the other 99% are too low level (even worse, they think it's you who is low level).

Don't go away, Antonio, I enjoy and learn loads from your posts. You have many great insights, and this site needs bright minds like yours. But having said that, I agree that there are quite a few dolts here, many who seem to enjoy picking pointless arguments and fights, and who say mean things here online that they'd probably not say in person. Stick around, man, be a shining light into this darkness of frustration we're all facing due to lack of speedy longevity progress.

 

========== OT ==========
Thanks, sthira. Indeed, there is that 1%. I returned a few days ago because I received an email notification from the forum. Then I logged in and changed my setup to not receive any notifications and blank out all my data from my profile but, before logging off, I took a last look at the forum. It was still as before: most posts were about supplements and nootropics, not immortality (or longevity if you prefer), and even in the sections devoted to rejuvenation and the like, most arguments were nonsense or missing already established facts. Then I saw the new interviews by Mind and, after some thought, I decided to return. That's why I posted again recently.

 

For quite some time now, I'm struggling about what to do about this whole thing, I mean, how to speed longevity progress, as you put it. Continue commenting in forums and blogs? Write my own blog or book instead of arguing with people? Forget completely about outreach and try to become an entrepreneur so I can donate much more money to research? I think it would be very inefficient to do more than one of those things. Better to stick to something and try to do it full-time or almost full-time.

========== OT ==========

 

Sorry for the off-topic.

 

A good post debunking many anti-cryonics myths is this: http://waitbutwhy.co...3/cryonics.html (it was already posted somewhere in LC).

[Antonio2014]

Lets say that I grant you the "overpopulation is the result of uncontrolled birth rate", well, ok ... it is ... NOW. You can't say the problem is cryonics because it does not work yet, right? When the time comes, if it does, it will. So if you already have that problem for the reason you stated, do the math and tell me what happens.

 

This is the kind of stupid nonsense I got tired of. No, we don't have that problem now nor we had it any time in the past and most probably we will not have it in the future either. And certainly cryonics will not affect it in any meaningful way. We are in more danger of underpopulation than of overpopulation. Guess what happens when this curve goes below 2?

 

 

 

See why it's decreasing and why it will probably never increase:

 

Edited by Antonio2014, 19 December 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[saj87]

No.

[Danail Bulgaria]

What are you not agreed with, @saj87  ?

[saj87]

What are you not agreed with, @saj87  ?

 

What you said and what the other user said. But I realized discussing with you two is impossible and its just going in circles. I think you don't actually read what I write (i.e: ask you for an argument not involving "hocus-pocus" and I get "And this is only temporary before we learn to live in the cosmos", which is just speculation). And the other guy is just acting cocky all the time, saying everyone else is "not-even-wrong" and I far as I saw its just smokescreen because he is "not-even-wrong".

 

So, if its impossible to do it, then just ... "No" is enough to stand on the other side avoiding future argumentation that's actually leading nowhere.

 

 

 

Thanks for asking.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Alright. Without hocus-pokus.

 

I am agree to live forever and not having children.

If I get that choice after I have a child, then I agree not having any more children as an in-status position. Calculate the overpopulation I will do with my immortality.

[Antonio2014]

His claims have been debunked by facts, so he can't argue anymore. It's that simple.

[saj87]

His claims have been debunked by facts, so he can't argue anymore. It's that simple.

 

Yes, the fact you are actually an idiot who thinks he's smart (the worst kind of idiot). Next time you want to give me a "fact" please don't google "ARGUMENT_I_GIVE is a myth" and throw me the first results you find without actually interpreting its content, like your revealing and enlightening talk given by an statician on this subject matter, which I stopped watching at 37mins (I believe), maybe I missed the best part? What would be really interesting and debunk my point is after the whole 37mins of contradictions? Haha.

 

 

I'll leave you discuss alone guys. You just keep talking to the 1%, maybe they too think a stupid story about a bangladesh woman, a speculation of the domino effect of her "convincing" other women about birth control and dubious/ambiguous statistical projection of a set of data is sound proof of this. LOL.

Edited by saj87, 27 December 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The main idea was, that overpopulation is not because of the length of life, but because of the uncontrolled multiplication.

 

This is what we try to proove you.

 

If you are listening, ofcourse.

 

P.S.

being offensive is not an argument. Everyone can call everyone idiot.

[saj87]

The main idea was, that overpopulation is not because of the length of life, but because of the uncontrolled multiplication.

 

This is what we try to proove you.

 

If you are listening, ofcourse.

 

P.S.

being offensive is not an argument. Everyone can call everyone idiot.

 

 

Your main idea is wrong, and that is what I already said (not trying to prove anything because its that way).

 

And I think I wrote it very clearly. I don't how to put it anymore, because it is as simple as looking for a definition:

 

 

 

 

 

Overpopulation occurs when a species' population exceeds the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. Overpopulation is a compared to the resources they need to survive, like water and essential nutrients. It can result from an increase in births (fertility rate), a decline in the mortality rate, an increase in immigration, or an unsustainable biome and depletion of resources.^[

 

 

Hence, cherry picking "increase in fertility rate" is not valid to disprove the argument I made about it not being what defines overpopulation because I said its more than that and its even proved by the definition itself of "overpopulation".

And regarding the other user, he didn't even disprove anything with the video talk he posted, not even the "increase in fertility rate" since the video is full of contradictions and doesn't give anything more substantial than a random story about a bangladesh woman and some "statistics".

 

And you are right being offensive is not an argument, which I tried to give politely more than once while all I got was a reaction of "everyone here is stupid except for a 1%" / "for stupid stuff like this I don't come here" / "He is wrong thats why he doesn't even try anymore" . The worst thing is that he is all that stuff he is accusing all the rest (well, not all the rest, just the 99%. lol).

 

All in all, I think I can't be more clear than that so I see no reason to continue writing the same in differentt ways.

 

 

PS: The coloring and big sizing its mine to illustrate the issue at hand, not that the site I copied it from assigns varying importance to those items by coloring or sizing them differently. I think it was obvious but I point it out anyway.

 

Best regards.

Edited by saj87, 27 December 2016 - 02:42 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The definition is correct, but for now, for the current state of the world, because immortality for people is not yet invented. That definition simply desribes a formula valid for the current society. it is:  number_of_people = current_number_of_people + births - deaths; Simply in the current world people multiply no matter if they will live longer or not. Thus they may overpopulate, because of decline of mortality rate. But I am talking about the solution in a fictional world with invented immortality. It is the very same formula - deaths =0 BUT ALSO births = 0

[Antonio2014]

Of course, to understand proofs and facts, some intelligence is needed. If you don't read other people's proofs, dismiss statistics in favour of opinions, or you are simply sleeping while seeing a vide, then nobody can convince you of anything.

 

Overpopulation occurs when a species' population exceeds the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. Overpopulation is a compared to the resources they need to survive, like water and essential nutrients. It can result from an increase in births (fertility rate), a decline in the mortality rate, an increase in immigration, or an unsustainable biome and depletion of resources.^[

 

 

One of the main points of the video is that the carrying capacity is not fixed for the human race, it depends on technology. And the video proves it with the statistics you dislike so much.

 

Other of the main points of the video (surely you were sleeping at that time) is that total fertility rate has been always declining, and that it is highly correlated to life expectancy and economic and technological development. And of course it proves it with the statistics you dislike so much.

 

Other of the main facts it shows and that you don't see is that the current increase in population is not due to any current change in fertility or mortality rates, but to changes that happened half a century ago (decrease in infant mortality) and that will not happen anymore. Guess what? Yeah, it proves it with statistics.

 

They video doesn't say it, but it was said elsewhere in this thread. It's stupid to think that cryonics can change any of this, for many reasons:

 

- Cryonics doesn't make you immortal, it only transports you to the future, pausing the flow of time for you.

 

- Even with real immortality now, changes to population would be minimal, because changes in birth rate make exponential changes to population, while changes in mortality rates only make linear changes to population.

 

- Cryonics patients can wait forever. If (against all predictions) overpopulation is coming, they can wait more centuries or millennia to be awaken, until the situation changes.

 

- Cryonics is really a very small community and it doesn't seem that it will become widespread before we have real rejuvenation anyway.

 

More of the statistics you so stupidily dismiss: https://rejuvenactio...-looks-so-grim/ (Yeah, I'm calling you stupid, but I also provide the data to support that your claims are stupid. You call me stupid but you don't provide anything to support that.)

Edited by Antonio2014, 28 December 2016 - 10:32 AM.

[Rib Jig]

 

His claims have been debunked by facts, so he can't argue anymore. It's that simple.

 

Yes, the fact you are actually an idiot who thinks he's smart

 

Condition describing this personality type has name:
 

"I'm OK, You're Not OK"

 

Fortunately, its one of the rarer types...

https://en.wikipedia..._OK_–_You're_OK

Otherwise we would have to fear these types physically destroying our cryonic crypts!!!

[saj87]

 

 

His claims have been debunked by facts, so he can't argue anymore. It's that simple.

 

Yes, the fact you are actually an idiot who thinks he's smart

 

Condition describing this personality type has name:
 

"I'm OK, You're Not OK"

 

Fortunately, its one of the rarer types...

https://en.wikipedia..._OK_–_You're_OK

Otherwise we would have to fear these types physically destroying our cryonic crypts!!!

 

 

I am not sure if you are refering to me or the other user. I'll be not discussing this topic anymore though.

 

 

Regards.

[elfanjo]

Good job guys !

 

This is how we fail as a community. He had legitimate questions and got flamed.

 

Now this is one a few online communities where we can ask questions about cryonics.

Some of you are very "high level" at googling, go find out how many there are.

 

I keep seeing people complaining that no interest, and eventually money, is being invested in life extension and cryonics.

But when someone shows interest he gets destroyed.

 

The golden rules of community management:

- Be nice to people, encourage readers to become posters

- If they make naive posts no biggy, help educate the people who actually have the balls to post

- Rince and repeat

 

You want to help? Have less ego, let's stop pretending for a minute that we are.

We all do the same, we read articles online, bookmark or repeat them. Longecity is just a collection of the literature that is out there, which is great.

None of us made or improved that literature, we are not scientists, we just copy / paste what we think we know. 

 

Still wana help? Be informative, be helpful. Let's do this !!!

 

- Cryonics is really a very small community and it doesn't seem that it will become widespread before we have real rejuvenation anyway.

 

You don't know that.

The community is small because cryonics is not part of our culture, this is a non-option for most people.

 

What do we do if rejuvenation is still 100 years off, or even 50 years...

What do we do for our parents ? What we do if we get sick ?

 

We can help the community, but we must stop being arseholes.

[Antonio2014]

- Cryonics is really a very small community and it doesn't seem that it will become widespread before we have real rejuvenation anyway.

 

You don't know that.

 

I do know that. It's not so difficult. It suffices to observe the trends of the last couple of decades. For cryonics, look at how many people are signed for cryonics every year. For rejuvenation, look at the evolution of SRF funding and the creation of SENS-related startups (and the money those startups have). Indeed, the results from the first Phase I trial of a SENS therapy have been announced this month: http://www.gensight-...nt01returnid=37 And the first trial for another SENS damage category will begin in 2018: https://youtu.be/5YQDd8whJAA?t=1121

 

- If they make naive posts no biggy, help educate the people who actually have the balls to post

 

It depends on how those naive posts are written. If someone simply has not enough knowledge about some topic, you can try to educate him/her. If, apart from that, he/she also can't argue rationally and thinks he/she is an expert and you an idiot, then there's no point in trying to educate him/her. See for example my posts here: http://www.longecity...re-an-infinity/ See the difference from the posts in this thread? Now compare seivtcho posts there and saj87 posts here.

 

Anyway, enough for the off-topic.

 

Edited by Antonio2014, 28 December 2016 - 10:01 PM.