8 replies to this topic

[PeaceAndProsperity]

This thought struck me.

Say we reverse aging and we stay in our 20s physiologically. We don't ever age to become in any way like a 30 or older person.

If growth hormone grows the organs and there is only space for so much in the bone cage that contains them (speaking from experience), and young people in their 20s have the highest growth hormone levels post-development, how long can we stay in our 20s before we need to have our organs replaced with smaller ones?

What is the growth rate of organs? 

 

Albeit it's true that the bones can develop to accommodate the increased need for space, it's only to a certain extent as evident in people using growth hormone for too long and as evident in acromegaly.

And it's also true that at least some organs can shrink in size, but this is only partly and not fully.

[Antonio2014]

Since, as you correctly say, people in their 20's are in "post-development" stage, they don't grow (well, nails and hair do grow, but we already know how to handle that).

Edited by Antonio2014, 15 December 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Please flag posts correctly. Since I did not make a suggestion it can't be dangerous/irresponsible.

The statement that people in their 20s do not grow is enormously false, both with women and men. There does occur lifelong maturation of bones as well as cell division for organs. Obviously you produce growth hormone and igf-1 throughout your life. Please stick to the thread question.

[Rocket]

Please flag posts correctly. Since I did not make a suggestion it can't be dangerous/irresponsible.

The statement that people in their 20s do not grow is enormously false, both with women and men. There does occur lifelong maturation of bones as well as cell division for organs. Obviously you produce growth hormone and igf-1 throughout your life. Please stick to the thread question.

 

A 20yo may still be growing, but a 28yo not anymore, except getting bigger because their are putting on weight. There is a  difference between weight gain in your 20s versus growing in your early 20s.

 

People in there 30's, 40's, 50', etc., etc., do not have GH gut from a lifelong exposure to HGH/IGH1. Also organs like their thymus (as just 1 example) shrink from the 30s onward.  Obviously supra physiological doses that bodybuilders use does lead to issues with HGH gut. There is no evidence whatsoever that maintaining HGH levels of someone in the mid/later 20s does anything bad to the body. Many people are on a prescription HGH to maintain youthful levels of GH and they aren't exploding from the inside out because their organs are growing out of control. The only thing that should be of concern is insulin resistance after using exogenous HGH, but that can be kept away by using DHEA.

 

 

Edited by Rocket, 15 December 2016 - 02:55 PM.

[Antonio2014]

Please flag posts correctly. Since I did not make a suggestion it can't be dangerous/irresponsible.

The statement that people in their 20s do not grow is enormously false, both with women and men. There does occur lifelong maturation of bones as well as cell division for organs. Obviously you produce growth hormone and igf-1 throughout your life. Please stick to the thread question.

 

I didn't flag anything.

 

Cell division doesn't equal to organ growth.

 

As for maturation of bones, unless you mean osteoporosis or something like that by "maturation" (that clearly is degeneration instead), bone development in humans has these phases:

 

(1) Post-natal period: From birth to less than 1 month of age.

 

(2) Infancy: Development and eruption of deciduous teeth. Mother milk is the only nutrient source (usually). Very fast brain growth. From the end of the post-natal period to the eruption of the second deciduous molars (24-30 months of age).

 

(3) Chilhood (early chilhood for some authors): Use of the deciduous teeth. No more milk nutrition from mother. Food needs some preparation because the digestive system is not fully developed. Very fast growth of the brain to almost 100% of its final size. Very slow body growth. From the end of the infancy to when the first permanent molars fully erupt from inside the maxilar and the mandible to the mouth and fully reach the occlusion plane, becoming completely functional (around 7 years of age).

 

(4) Juvenile period: Change from deciduous teeth to permanent teeth. Maturation of the digestive system and the immune system. Very slow growth of the brain to its maximum size. From the end of chilhood to around the eruption of the first permanent molar (~10 years of age for girls and ~12 years of age for boys).

 

(5) Adolescence: Last development period. Fast body growth. Development of secondary sexual features (pubic hair, breasts, change of voice tune, etc.). In principle, until the eruption of the third permanent molars (around 16-17 years of age for girls and 18-19 years of age for boys), but in current populations the third molars sometimes get stuck inside the mandible and never erupt, or erupt in the horizontal direction, causing health problems, or even never develop.

 

(6) Adulthood: No development.

 

 

Source (in Spanish): book El chico de la Gran Dolina, by Jose Maria Bermudez de Castro (discoverer of Homo antecessor).

Edited by Antonio2014, 15 December 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Antonio2014]

Also organs like their thymus (as just 1 example) shrink from the 30s onward.

 

Actually, the thymus shrinks from the first year of life.

Edited by Antonio2014, 15 December 2016 - 03:44 PM.

[YOLF]

Please stop bickering and undo your negatives, there are better answers/education/explanations etc. and it's not productive to do anything but use this as a teaching opportunity.

 

Growth hormone increases cellular turnover, but has it's own aging side effects as one or another effect that it has can impair kidney function. TMK, using IGF1 is better for what you're probably looking for and growth hormone isn't everything. The metabolism also slows, so the increase in HGH that we see in the 20s might also be that we aren't metabolizing it as fast as we did in our teens. Ageless biometrics will be a mix of parameters from a variety of ages, not any one in particular.

 

SENS has a list of the most important things (as we know them presently) to aging. Indigestible cellular garbage, such as, but not limited to lipofuscin, glucosepane, and other such things build up over time and can't be removed, they impair the function of healthy metabolism and affect our biometrics as we age. So the most important thing is to remove these things, you can't just take hormones, they can make you feel younger, but depending on your predispositions, can be harmful long term, and redundant once you can removing aging's lynch pins. HGH or IGF1 can do a little to reduce this, but won't do enough on their own and may quicken aging which is not so readily recognizable such as EGFR figures (they are estimates until kidney function is reduced to 40-60%). So more appropriately, we need to look at what can be done to slow and reverse the aging process.

 

• Lipofuscin can be removed with DMAE or Centrophenoxine, though it will cause headaches
• Some AGEs (Advanced Glycation End products) can be removed with Sage extracts
• We can remove garbage in the ECM (extra cellular matrix) through our natural processes faster with AHAs (Alpha Hydroxy Acids) with acetate, pyruvate, etc.
• We can turn over the ECM faster with IGF1
• We can prevent and repair genetic damage with Blueberry anthocyanins (25-35%)
• We can quicken the demise and removal of old and damaged cells with p53 activators and senolytics with Resveratrol and Quercetin (respectively)
• We can restore telomere lengths in healthy cells with Astragaloside IV (epitalon might be another option).
• We can restore telomere lengths in critically short telomere cells with cycloastragenol (epitalon might be another option).
• Vinpocetine is similar to acetic acid (an acetate) and does something beneficial (buy it while you can, the FDA wants it off the market) for cognitive aging, maybe it's an age breaker? I'm not all that familiar with it...
• Tocotrienols preserve Klotho, which reduces incidence of age related diseases and pathologies, Klotho can also be increased with D3 and IGF1. This will slow aging and preserve healthy metabolism where their are holes in our ability to fight aging.
• We can prevent the formation of some AGEs with Thiamine HCl (a specific form of B1) or use Benfotiamine, P5P, or other versions of B6, though these reduce dopamine levels and make you lazy... Blood sugar maintenance is a much better method. Avoid B complexes altogether for this reason.
• We can preserve telomere length with riboflavin B2
• We can reduce aging from inflammation with the white willow extracts standardized to contain salicin, or by using small, age appropriate doses of liquid NSAIDs (aspirin can cause ulcers for example which will reduce your ability to absorb nutrients and make you age faster... so be careful and don't ignore side effects). There are also things such as tart cherry extracts and boswellia serrata extracts for this.

 

Then there are also some very strong aging band-aids such as nicotinamide riboside (may be more, but I haven't seen data showing it yet). This stuff might also make you tired and lazy from my experience.

 

So these are the things you aught to be concerned with. Though I'm not sure how complete this list is. In any case, your money is best spent on the things that permanently/sustainably restore youthful function, and prevent aging, and then on what manages aging better than your body as a healthier organism. That's the best way IMO to understand this argument and make something productive out of it.

 

As you restore more and more youthful function more productively, you'll also accelerate your intellectual development as aging has already been slowing this down in you from the time you were a small child. So hopefully you'll decide to help us with research and development so we can all get smarter and younger faster together!

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

• Lipofuscin can be removed with DMAE or Centrophenoxine, though it will cause headaches
• Some AGEs (Advanced Glycation End products) can be removed with Sage extracts
• We can remove garbage in the ECM (extra cellular matrix) through our natural processes faster with AHAs (Alpha Hydroxy Acids) with acetate, pyruvate, etc.
• We can turn over the ECM faster with IGF1
• We can prevent and repair genetic damage with Blueberry anthocyanins (25-35%)
• We can quicken the demise and removal of old and damaged cells with p53 activators and senolytics with Resveratrol and Quercetin (respectively)
• We can restore telomere lengths in healthy cells with Astragaloside IV (epitalon might be another option).
• We can restore telomere lengths in critically short telomere cells with cycloastragenol (epitalon might be another option).
• Vinpocetine is similar to acetic acid (an acetate) and does something beneficial (buy it while you can, the FDA wants it off the market) for cognitive aging, maybe it's an age breaker? I'm not all that familiar with it...
• Tocotrienols preserve Klotho, which reduces incidence of age related diseases and pathologies, Klotho can also be increased with D3 and IGF1. This will slow aging and preserve healthy metabolism where their are holes in our ability to fight aging.
• We can prevent the formation of some AGEs with Thiamine HCl (a specific form of B1) or use Benfotiamine, P5P, or other versions of B6, though these reduce dopamine levels and make you lazy... Blood sugar maintenance is a much better method. Avoid B complexes altogether for this reason.
• We can preserve telomere length with riboflavin B2
• We can reduce aging from inflammation with the white willow extracts standardized to contain salicin, or by using small, age appropriate doses of liquid NSAIDs (aspirin can cause ulcers for example which will reduce your ability to absorb nutrients and make you age faster... so be careful and don't ignore side effects). There are also things such as tart cherry extracts and boswellia serrata extracts for this.

I don't think anyone who commented understood the point of the topic. Maybe I didn't explain my point well. The point was that IF we manage to reverse aging and make ourselves permanently be in our early 20s (because you can't reverse anymore back) then what are the consequences of our continual youthful hormonal output. There undoubtedly is a problem with continuous growth hormone production, I don't think anyone would deny that. But, and that's the point, how long before it becomes a problem?

 

Anyway, thread ruined by the first reply. Forget about it.

Nice post though YOLF. Maybe I should have my relative try astragloside IV + high dose B2 and see how it works for telomere restoration? Already ordered the 50mg/cap astragloside IV.

[YOLF]

Well, the next thing is always going to get you, but we're going to get further and further. I don't know all of the pathologies that HGH or youthful hormones cause, but it shouldn't be any different than problems we're already facing, it will just be a different balance of the problems, with each slowing/reversing, slowing the formation of other pathologies. The net benefit will always be positive. The only thing one could argue is that youthful appetite for risk and reward seeking will remain... but even then, I the financial and relationship stability that one gets with being older will remove the need for risk appetite.

 

In the above mentioned example, HGH increases mineralization of the kidneys and reduces EGFR, but those are made, at least partially, of AGEs, which we are able to treat, so while we may restore HGH and T output, the problems they cause will be reversible, and the HGH level will also help remove the harder to access AGEs in the ECM, so given this, we should continually get healthier once we achieve the right conditions.