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Alcohol induced insomnia - clue?

alcohol insomnia

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#1 TerryFirmer

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 12:12 PM


Maybe this is a slightly crazy notion, but I suffer from lifelong insomnia and it's made acutely worse by drinking alcohol, and I wonder if that's a clue about chemical imbalances in my brain and/or body?

 

A bit more background: I'm late 50s, male, caucasian. Slim, fit and healthy in most respects. I had quite severe depression for many years but I seem to have overcome that. I have slight anhedonia but it's a whole lot better than the crushing depressions I used to get.

 

I've read a lot of threads here and I'm hopelessly confused as to whether I'm an over/under-methylator, have too high or low acetylchoine, too low or high in serotonin/dopamine/norephinephrine etc etc.

 

Nowadays my sleep problem is mainly with staying asleep. I sleep ok for the first five hours, then wake up and can't get back to sleep for an hour or more, then the sleep is fragmented and full of dreams. I almost never wake up feeling well rested.

 

I've tried all the usual sleep hygiene tips over the last three decades. Not much helps. Supplement-wise, nothing much has a beneficial effect. Melatonin can help me get to sleep but it doesn't keep me asleep, even the time-release versions. Zopiclone worked nicely, but I suffered a rebound the next night after taking it before.

 

Naturally I avoid caffeine in any form.

 

As the title says, alcohol impairs or even stops my sleeping. If I get really drunk (which I do rarely) I have to sober up before I can get to sleep, otherwise my mind is racing. Any clues as to why?



#2 jack black

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 03:03 PM

Look up alcohol releasing dopamine. You have to remove all stimulants, not just caffeine.
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#3 Junk Master

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:54 PM

You've made it clear at the beginning you are not among the group but...

 

Pretty well  known among alcoholics that waking up at 3am "ish" is the result of alcohol metabolism dropping blood sugar.  The great crime writer Joseph Wambaugh has some great lines about the "vultures" coming.

 

I know that as a lifelong insomniac, who also has idiopathic narcolepsy, and at the very least traits of being on the Spectrum (I have on child clinically diagnosed on the Spectrum, who has terrible insomnia problems as well), alcohol played havoc with my sleep architecture.  The seductive part of alcohol is a glass or two of red wine can often help with sleep onset.

 

Paradoxically, I sleep much better while taking my prescribed dose of Modafinil during the day.  Plus, on the occasions I've quit coffee for extended periods of time I've noticed no difference in sleep quality.  Granted my brain might be a wee bit different than most.

 

In my son's case, it was only my worry that he might have sleep apnea that led to a sleep test which revealed he has night time epilepsy.  Once that was treated with medication his sleep improved immeasurably.  He became much more high functioning as a result.

 

It is my suspicion, given the high rate of Spectrum/epilepsy comorbidity that there are many people on the Spectrum who have undiagnosed nighttime seizures that effect their sleep.  Some seizures might not even be noticed by a partner, or sibling sleeping in the same room, yet still disrupt sleep patterns.

 

FYI in my case a 5-10 gram dose of the amino acid Leucine is quite helpful for preventing intermittent waking.

 

So far the absolute best treatment for my insomnia is aerobic exercise of over 45 minutes a day.  Not realistic for most people but it works for me.

 

Also, as per the example of Dr. Ray Cronise I've been working my melatonin intake up towards 20 mg a night.  Because I've done this over a period of weeks, I'm not groggy in the mornings.



#4 TerryFirmer

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 01:12 AM

Look up alcohol releasing dopamine. You have to remove all stimulants, not just caffeine.

 

Thanks, I'll do that. But alcohol is only a very occasional indulgence, maybe once a fortnight. I've gone months without a drop of alcohol and I've still had trouble staying asleep.
 

I was thinking I'm probably low in dopamine, reflected by lack of drive/motivation, anhedonia, slightly low libido.

 

Edit: The attached document says

 

"Alcohol does not lead to an increase of dopamine throughout the brain; it only causes an increase in dopamine in the area of the reward pathway (Boileau et al 2003)."

 

And:

 

"Moreover, the experimental evidence suggests that alcohol does not cause the increase in dopamine directly. Rather, it appears that alcohol directly affects the GABA system and the endorphin system. Neurons from the GABA system extend into the reward pathway and when alcohol affects the GABA system these neurons release dopamine into the reward pathway."

 

Seems to me that the sleep-disturbing features of alcohol are likely more due to adrenaline and noradrenaline release than dopamine.

Attached Files


Edited by TerryFirmer, 19 December 2016 - 01:58 AM.


#5 TerryFirmer

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 01:35 AM

You've made it clear at the beginning you are not among the group but...

 

Pretty well  known among alcoholics that waking up at 3am "ish" is the result of alcohol metabolism dropping blood sugar.  The great crime writer Joseph Wambaugh has some great lines about the "vultures" coming.

 

I know that as a lifelong insomniac, who also has idiopathic narcolepsy, and at the very least traits of being on the Spectrum (I have on child clinically diagnosed on the Spectrum, who has terrible insomnia problems as well), alcohol played havoc with my sleep architecture.  The seductive part of alcohol is a glass or two of red wine can often help with sleep onset.

 

Paradoxically, I sleep much better while taking my prescribed dose of Modafinil during the day.  Plus, on the occasions I've quit coffee for extended periods of time I've noticed no difference in sleep quality.  Granted my brain might be a wee bit different than most.

 

In my son's case, it was only my worry that he might have sleep apnea that led to a sleep test which revealed he has night time epilepsy.  Once that was treated with medication his sleep improved immeasurably.  He became much more high functioning as a result.

 

It is my suspicion, given the high rate of Spectrum/epilepsy comorbidity that there are many people on the Spectrum who have undiagnosed nighttime seizures that effect their sleep.  Some seizures might not even be noticed by a partner, or sibling sleeping in the same room, yet still disrupt sleep patterns.

 

FYI in my case a 5-10 gram dose of the amino acid Leucine is quite helpful for preventing intermittent waking.

 

So far the absolute best treatment for my insomnia is aerobic exercise of over 45 minutes a day.  Not realistic for most people but it works for me.

 

Also, as per the example of Dr. Ray Cronise I've been working my melatonin intake up towards 20 mg a night.  Because I've done this over a period of weeks, I'm not groggy in the mornings.

 

Thanks, that's very interesting. Dropping blood sugar at 3am? - hmm, not sure, I don't feel hungry when I wake up at that time, nor when I get up at 8am. Fasting blood sugar is normal.

 

I assume you mean the Autistic Spectrum. I was a bit Aspergery as a child - no close friends, very low empathy, insensitive. Something I've definitely overcome in adulthood, though I'm still somewhat self-sufficient and aloof, low in affect, strong focus, but no OCD at all. I'm an introvert, a thinker rather than doer, but in no way shy.

 

I had a partner who I slept with for over a decade and she never noticed anything like seizures or sleep apnea. I think at one point I had something like RLS, but it seemed to resolve itself.

 

As for aerobic exercise, in twelve years of being a serious runner, like 60 miles per week, every week, it never helped me.

 

I tried low dose Modafinil briefly a few years ago. Gave me great clarity during the day but messed with my sleep so I gave it up.

 

I'll give leucine a try. I read that glycine helps some people sleep so I'm taking about 3g at bedtime, but with no noticeable effect. I also tried Ecklonia Cava extract because I read a few reviews saying that people experienced great, restful sleep on it, but I've stopped taking it because if anything it made things worse.

 

20g Melatonin is a LOT! I'd be worried about shutting down my endogenous production if I took that much. What happens when you miss taking it for one or two nights?

 


 



#6 Junk Master

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 04:08 AM

Here's just one quick quote about alcohol and blood sugar--

 

"Alcohol also affects blood sugar levels each time it's consumed, which means occasional drinkers can also be negatively impacted. Alcohol consumption causes an increase in insulin secretion, which leads to low blood sugar (otherwise known as hypoglycaemia)."

 

Not putting you in the category, but it's common for alcoholics to wake up at night to drink more to stave off withdrawals too.

 

It is a lot of Melatonin, but Melatonin is dirt cheap.  I'll come off in a week or two just to see how it effects me.  I'm not too worried about shutting off my endogenous production for good.  

 

As for herbal sedatives, I've had decent luck with a lemon balm/magnolia bark combo from Swanson's.  

 

I also use a L.E.D light in the morning to help with my circadian rhythm.

 

I'm really surprised that 60 miles per week didn't do the trick!  All I can think of is if you ran during the evening that can cause insomnia in some people.

 

 

 
 

 



#7 TerryFirmer

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 12:52 PM

 

Here's just one quick quote about alcohol and blood sugar--

 

"Alcohol also affects blood sugar levels each time it's consumed, which means occasional drinkers can also be negatively impacted. Alcohol consumption causes an increase in insulin secretion, which leads to low blood sugar (otherwise known as hypoglycaemia)."

 

Not putting you in the category, but it's common for alcoholics to wake up at night to drink more to stave off withdrawals too.

 

It is a lot of Melatonin, but Melatonin is dirt cheap.  I'll come off in a week or two just to see how it effects me.  I'm not too worried about shutting off my endogenous production for good.  

 

As for herbal sedatives, I've had decent luck with a lemon balm/magnolia bark combo from Swanson's.  

 

I also use a L.E.D light in the morning to help with my circadian rhythm.

 

I'm really surprised that 60 miles per week didn't do the trick!  All I can think of is if you ran during the evening that can cause insomnia in some people.

 

 

 
 

 

 

I used a light box for a while - didn't have any effect on my sleep, but no harm in training the zeitgebers! Every morning the first thing I do is sit right next to my very large balcony window for at least an hour - I think that should be equivalent.

 

Running in the evening definitely worsened my sleep, so I tried to train at lunchtime or about 4pm most days of the week.

 



#8 Madman

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 11:09 AM

Quit alcohol for 3 months and if you sleep improves then the alcohol is responsible, alcohol interferes with dopamine levels and adrenaline as they are both connected to each other. It will take at least 2 months or more for the alcohol effects on your body to normalize.

 

I had the exact same issue with alcohol, quitting completely fixed it, after 3 months I was sleeping like a baby and my mood was much improved.


Edited by Madman, 30 December 2016 - 11:10 AM.


#9 TerryFirmer

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 11:16 AM

Quit alcohol for 3 months and if you sleep improves then the alcohol is responsible, alcohol interferes with dopamine levels and adrenaline as they are both connected to each other. It will take at least 2 months or more for the alcohol effects on your body to normalize.

 

I had the exact same issue with alcohol, quitting completely fixed it, after 3 months I was sleeping like a baby and my mood was much improved.

 

Thanks. A couple of years ago I stopped drinking (from a very low, irregular consumption pattern to absolute zero) for about six months. My sleep didn't improve, unfortunately.

 

I think I probably have an over-abundance of noradrenaline, and alcohol just boosts that further, leading to its acute effects on my sleep.
 



#10 Madman

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:18 PM

An over-abundance of Noradrenaline sounds very likely, there likely is a root cause to it, do you smoke ?, eat processed sugar ?, or consume anything else that may increase your levels of dopamine and or adrenaline ?



#11 TerryFirmer

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:39 PM

An over-abundance of Noradrenaline sounds very likely, there likely is a root cause to it, do you smoke ?, eat processed sugar ?, or consume anything else that may increase your levels of dopamine and or adrenaline ?

 

Not knowingly. I don't smoke, don't do drugs, eat a pescatarian diet fairly low in processed sugar. I've tried all sorts of dietary manipulations (eg gluten-free, novel foods etc) from time to time, but nothing helps me sleep deeply. My mum is the same.



#12 Madman

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 06:17 PM

Have you tried removing all sugar from your diet ?, personally I found any amount of processed sugar in my diet raised my adrenaline levels and caused sleep disturbances.

 

Have you experimented with 5-htp, calcium and magnesium before bed ?


Edited by Madman, 30 December 2016 - 06:24 PM.


#13 TerryFirmer

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 11:20 AM

Have you tried removing all sugar from your diet ?, personally I found any amount of processed sugar in my diet raised my adrenaline levels and caused sleep disturbances.

 

Have you experimented with 5-htp, calcium and magnesium before bed ?

 

I did once try a sugar free diet but couldn't stick to it for more than a couple of weeks - so hard. The thing that puzzles me about the anti sugar idea is that simple carbs such as white bread and pasta have a high glycemic index - just as high as sucrose or glucose in many instances - so to go really sugar free you should eliminate all simple/refined carbs. The component in table sugar that I think is dodgy is fructose, which does seem to be pretty bad for the liver IIRC. Anyway, that's tangential to this thread.

 

Yes, I've tried most of the usual suspects for assisting sleep. Magnesium, calcium, 5-htp, kava, melatonin, valerian, hops, bacopa, just loads and loads of stuff over the last thirty years. I have some lemon balm extract and magnolia bark on order.
 



#14 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 12:47 PM

Terry.... have you considered that you DON'T have just a sleeping-disorder, but it's a sign of a deeper, more pervasive arousal-disorder?
 

Every day, I see here, on Reddit and other places, people trying to figure out symptoms of anhedonia and bad sleep, and so many of them eventually end up being like me:

 

ADHD-PI with Idiopathic Hypersomnia or simply SCT - Sluggish Cognitive Tempo.

 

 

That light anhedonia of yours may NOT be anhedonia - it may be the simple signs of low NE-activity which is at the root of the symptoms.

 

Here, read the Wiki and have a look at if you fit the symptoms:

 

https://en.wikipedia...cognitive_tempo

 

 

It should be noted that one of the reasons why I mention it, is because ALL of us with SCT, have, or are intermittently struck by, Non-Restful Sleep - it's some form of RLS - Restless-Legs-Syndrome, but not quite the same - RLS is mostly associated with ADHD, and seems to be dopaminergic in nature - meanwhile, what we have, seems to be more subtle, but ALL-BODY-WIDE, leading to excessive dreaming and sensitivity to our sleep-structure and circadian rhytms.

 

Here, there's an entire bloody thread about this on ADDForums:

 

http://www.addforums...ead.php?t=68886

 

It should be noted that GABApentin, which is a drug used for both neuropathic pain and epilepsy helps me with this, and MODAFINIL seems to help me EVEN MORE, just like for another fellow in this thread.

 

This is consistent with SCT being an arousal-disorder, a form of mixture of both narcoleptic and ADHD -traits - this paradoxical effect is then perfectly in line with the paradoxical effects of stimulants on ADHD-ers.

 

 

Don't assume that your problem is dopaminergic in nature - anhedonia could just as easily be norepinephrinergic. I assumed that my anhedonia was DA-based, and was in for a RUDE awakening when trying out dopaminergics - they give me tons, and tons of anxiety and a lot of side-effects - reason for that, being that I DON'T have a problem with DA - it's just fine, in fact, my genetic testing showed that I have enhanced dopaminergic synthesis even!

 

Hence the bad reactions to DA - I'm already good there.

 

It's NE that's the kicker - for me.

 

So, don't assume its DA, it could just as easily be NE - if so, I suggest you try REBOXETINE. And for the arousal, try low-dose MODAFINIL.

 

Eh, I'll just spell it out:

 

 

Gabapentin 300 mg (night)

Modafinil 100 mg (morning)

Reboxetine 2 mg (morning)

 

 

Try and get a hold of these, prescribed or otherwise, and see what happens - if they work... then you're bloody SCT!


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 31 December 2016 - 12:47 PM.

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#15 Madman

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 03:50 PM

The sugar issue is a difficult one, personally I measure my HR and blood pressure regularly, when I consume table sugar my HR stays higher and my overall stress level is higher, this effects my sleep I assume from higher adrenaline levels, so Ive removed refined sugar, but I still eat fruit occasionally and have Blueberries daily with no effect on my HR or blood pressure and my sleep is not effected. I notice there is a direct connection between resting HR and sleep quality.

 

Taking a higher dose of Melatonin may help , 10mg or more.

 

Then there is a DISP, deep sleep inducing peptide, this I have not tried personally but I hear it improves sleep for some people.

 

Curcumin helps a lot with sleep, 1-2 tsp with ginger before bed

 

Ive pretty much gone though that list just like you Terry over a similar time frame, Magnolia Bark is interesting, I found it worked well for short periods then looses its effectiveness, so I cycle it. I don't know what else to suggest other than lots of exercise, this wipes me out nicely for sleep.


Edited by Madman, 31 December 2016 - 04:02 PM.


#16 TerryFirmer

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 11:23 AM

@Stinkorninjor: Thank you, I really appreciate your suggestions. I read the links you provided and some of the SCT symptoms fit me, but others definitely do not.

 

I see the wiki suggests SCT should be renamed Concentration Deficit Disorder. But my concentration is extremely good. Maybe I was a bit dreamy as a child, but in my adult life I have had no concentration problems at all. I have three degrees, including a PhD in a STEM subject which I completed in three years. No problem staying on task. I can concentrate on something for hours on end and rarely get distracted. Ageing has lessened my ability to assimilate large amounts of information, but I'm still fairly sharp, aside from the obvious effects of sleep deprivation.

 

Many posters on the ADDforum related problems with making themselves go to bed at a regular time. I have no desire to stay up late; I always go to bed between 10:30 and 10:45 pm and fall asleep fairly quickly, unless I'm under some kind of stress. The problem I have is with waking up at 3 or 4 am.

 

I have tried at least one dopaminergic - cabergoline. It didn't cause anxiety, but rather increased emotional lability, higher highs and deeper lows, rather quicker to anger (not like me at all - I'm very calm and controlled, normally).

 

Low dose modafinil gave me great clarity of thinking but screwed up my sleep onset.

 

 

@Madman: Thanks again. I hadn't heard of DSIP - I'll look into that. 1-2 tsp of curcumin sounds a lot - did you mean turmeric?



#17 platypus

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 12:47 PM

You could try taking time-release melatonin prior to going to bed and a sublingual booster-dose in the middle of the night if you are awake. Also adding things like magnesium and glycine into your sleep-stack should not hurt. If you think blood-sugar is an issue, take some coconut oil with protein prior to bed. 


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#18 Madman

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 01:35 PM

Hi Terry, Yes I meant Turmeric, not Curcumin, combining with ginger to prevent stomach upset, a small amount of black pepper with this will help with bio availability

 

Have you thought of using metformin to improve blood sugar control ?


Edited by Madman, 01 January 2017 - 01:37 PM.


#19 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 03:26 PM

FYI in my case a 5-10 gram dose of the amino acid Leucine is quite helpful for preventing intermittent waking.

At first I thought leucine was helping me fall asleep and I reasoned it was due to lowering catecholamines and serotonin. But now it does the exact opposite, it makes me unable to fall asleep and if I do fall asleep it's only a few hours. Although the amounts I am talking about are as little as 1mg-1g.



#20 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 03:38 PM

Don't assume that your problem is dopaminergic in nature - anhedonia could just as easily be norepinephrinergic.

I noticed that copper + vitamin C (both increase ne) brought my sense of smell and my emotions back (not full range).. for about 15 minutes. Then it was back to normal. Then 5 minutes later my sense of smell came back. Then it was normal again. Then I could smell only 1 smell out of many different smells, and same with emotions.  :dry:



#21 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 05:08 PM

 

Don't assume that your problem is dopaminergic in nature - anhedonia could just as easily be norepinephrinergic.

I noticed that copper + vitamin C (both increase ne) brought my sense of smell and my emotions back (not full range).. for about 15 minutes. Then it was back to normal. Then 5 minutes later my sense of smell came back. Then it was normal again. Then I could smell only 1 smell out of many different smells, and same with emotions.  :dry:

 

 

Ok, well that sounds like something good at least, even if intermittent.

Have you considered going for Reboxetine? As you recall, it's been shown helpful for negative symptoms of schizofrenia, and anhedonia in depression.

 

Give it a look, and consider trying it.
 



#22 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 05:58 PM

Ok, well that sounds like something good at least, even if intermittent.

Have you considered going for Reboxetine? As you recall, it's been shown helpful for negative symptoms of schizofrenia, and anhedonia in depression.

 

Give it a look, and consider trying it.
 

 

I was thinking about that but then I read about the side-effects of hallucinations and etc. It might be good for a schizophrenic on antipsychotics but for a guy like myself taking nothing to counteract ""positive symptoms"" it's probably not a good idea. 

I noticed that the vitamin c + copper combo made me a bit "uneasy" or "out of it"/overstimulated and perhaps anxious too. 

My heart won't be able to tolerate the potential side effects of a noradrenaline increasing drug because I already have somewhat reduced "heart function" due to my size and such.


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#23 Junk Master

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 03:31 AM

So, since it's absolutely free, why don't you try an intermittently hot/cold shower warm then 10 seconds cold then 10 warm then 20 cold then 20 warm, ending with 30-45 seconds of cold water focused on your face and upper shoulders.

 

While this technique has been popularized to raise norepinephrine levels in the mornings and to stimulate creation of "brown fat,"  I find it also does a remarkable job in resetting circadian rhythm.

 

If I'm really having trouble with insomnia, I find, since I'm decently cold adapted, a 2 minute cold shower does a remarkable job in putting me out like a light once I dry off and warm up.

 

Best of luck!



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#24 TerryFirmer

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 12:27 PM

You could try taking time-release melatonin prior to going to bed and a sublingual booster-dose in the middle of the night if you are awake. Also adding things like magnesium and glycine into your sleep-stack should not hurt. If you think blood-sugar is an issue, take some coconut oil with protein prior to bed. 

 

I use time-release melatonin some nights, but I haven't tried a second dose upon first awakening - will give it a shot.

 

Mg and glycine don't seem to do much for me, sleep wise. Have you tried gelatin at bedtime? I've heard it can help.

 

Coconut oil for the ketones?

 

Hi Terry, Yes I meant Turmeric, not Curcumin, combining with ginger to prevent stomach upset, a small amount of black pepper with this will help with bio availability

 

Have you thought of using metformin to improve blood sugar control ?

 

Yes I took 1-1.5g of metformin for a few weeks but it seemed to destroy my libido so I stopped. Now trying just 250mg per day.

 

 

So, since it's absolutely free, why don't you try an intermittently hot/cold shower warm then 10 seconds cold then 10 warm then 20 cold then 20 warm, ending with 30-45 seconds of cold water focused on your face and upper shoulders.

 

While this technique has been popularized to raise norepinephrine levels in the mornings and to stimulate creation of "brown fat,"  I find it also does a remarkable job in resetting circadian rhythm.

 

If I'm really having trouble with insomnia, I find, since I'm decently cold adapted, a 2 minute cold shower does a remarkable job in putting me out like a light once I dry off and warm up.

 

Best of luck!

 

Ok I'll give that a try, thanks. I live in a tropical climate so even the cold water is not that cold, but it may work.







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