81 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

No one from any future is showing up.  Why???  Your science fiction predicts they should be all around us.

 

This question is not related with the topic.

 

Plus people from the future may not be comming to us for hundreds of reasons. One of them may be exactly not to change the order - not to mess with the deterministic software of the Universe.

[shadowhawk]

The positions of particles, for example, that have left the atmosphere is still finite. Even if you take all possible particles crossing the boundary into Earth they again are finite.

Everything that is finite in number and can make a finite effects while in contact with the system generates a finite number of possibilities.

You are right but this creates another problem.  The possibilities are limited. Some things can't happen.  You can't just claim lala as your evidence when there is none.  The physical world, what ever that is, is limited.

 

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 January 2017 - 08:44 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The possibilities are limited only for a limited timeframe.

[shadowhawk]

We have a limited time frame for the cosmos and way more limited when it comes to YOU.

[Danail Bulgaria]

No one from any future is showing up.  Why???  Your science fiction predicts they should be all around us.

 

Just to cheer you up

 

A funny video

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=75nBenOWul0

 

 

 

 

I think, that you guys simply don't believe that calculating backwards is possible and simply design in your minds numerous reasons why. You maybe are not be blamed for that. The life today may trained you to do so. We live in the preasent situation of a limited possibilities. All your life you have been trained from the surrounding environment to think in a box. You simply can't get out of the box.

[shadowhawk]

Yes but 4-3 takes time.    4,3,2,1,  4 seconds passed.  Don't blame me I was trained to do so.  Let me see you do it.    By the way, I love your YouTube evidence.  I am convinced. 

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 January 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[platypus]

 

Well... sorry. Then the people from the very distant future will have to do alot of calculations.

 

The Earth is an open system, correct. But it receives and dismisses mainly energy. The atoms as general are staying here, on the Earth. But again new atoms come with meteorites.

 

Or they may find a way to do the correct math with incomplete information.

 

How about cosmic rays from distant quasars causing point mutations in the DNA and therefore changing the course of evolution and therefore history. Better to model those too   

[Danail Bulgaria]

Yes but 4-3 takes time. 4,3,2,1, 4 seconds passed. Don't blame me I was trained to do so. Let me see you do it. By the way, I love your YouTube evidence. I am convinced.

 

Since you can calculate backwards, why dont you believe, that everything can be counted backwards? Which law stops you?

 

How about cosmic rays from distant quasars causing point mutations in the DNA and therefore changing the course of evolution and therefore history. Better to model those too   

 

 

 

 

Is it imposible to model those too? Which law stop you from suggesting them?

[shadowhawk]

Movement and change screws up everything.  You are here, then there.  If you are not in the box you can be there and before here!!!!  However we have beem conditioned to believe in space-time.  Now there are other dimensions beside these 4.  What about them?

[platypus]

The computation will be made impossible by lack of data. The sensors are not where they need to be (close to the edge of the universe, billions of light years away, in the past). 

 

Cosmic rays can be created by quantum effects so they can be truly random. The number of possible paths/histories will be vastly larger than the number of observations which makes the computation grossly underdetermined, so the unique result needed cannot be found. 

 

ps. did you find anything impossible yet? The people from the future will be subject to the same laws of physics as we are, so it will not be anything-goes-and-magic-fixes-all imaginable obstacles...

 

 

[shadowhawk]

I do believe things can be calculated backwards but it takes time which is going forward. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

That  is what I am talking about. You dont see deterministic calculations in your daily life, and you can't believe, that they are possible.

 

Even if you believe, that you can calculate, and you believe, that everything goes on the scientific laws, and even if you believe, that movement can be calculated backwards, and even if you believe, that the number of calculations is only a prolonging not a banning factor for calculating everything, you still can't believe in them all together, because you simply cant get out of the box. You will never stop thinking until you get the next obsticle, you will rise it in your mind to an absolute stopping factor and will say: you see - that is impossible.

 

How many dimensions are out there? In which it is impossible to calculate? Because of which law?

 

 

P.S.

What exactly you cant suggest if you dont have information for? The cosmic rays? I don't think so.. Everything can be suggested.

 

Edited by seivtcho, 13 January 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[shadowhawk]

That  is what I am talking about. You dont see deterministic calculations in your daily life, and you can't believe, that they are possible.

 

Even if you believe, that you can calculate, and you believe, that everything goes on the scientific laws, and even if you believe, that movement can be calculated backwards, and even if you believe, that the number of calculations is only a prolonging not a banning factor for calculating everything, you still can't believe in them all together, because you simply cant get out of the box. You will never stop thinking until you get the next obsticle, you will rise it in your mind to an absolute stopping factor and will say: you see - that is impossible.

 

How many dimensions are out there? In which it is impossible to calculate? Because of which law?

 

 

P.S.

What exactly you cant suggest if you dont have information for? The cosmic rays? I don't think so.. Everything can be suggested.

There are about 9 dimensions but being in the box 596oh0699$%^#.  Help me out here.  Suggest something.  How long did it take you to create this last post?  Lets go back.  Help me out of the box.  I can calculate backwards within the four dimensional space time box.  To do so requires me to do it in space time.  Get me out of here.

[N.T.M.]

The positions of particles, for example, that have left the atmosphere is still finite. 

 

Yes, since Earth's formation, a finite number of particles have crossed the boundary, but that's not what I said. I said that you don't have any information outside of the system, so you have to consider the effects of an infinite number of particles with an infinite number of positions, angular momentum, etc. There's just no way to predict what will pass through the boundary, so you have to account for all possibilities, of which there's an infinite number.

 

I do believe things can be calculated backwards but it takes time which is going forward.  

 

That shouldn't' matter, though. All you need is a "snapshot."

Edited by N.T.M., 14 January 2017 - 02:50 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I don't have what more to say you. You simply are not listening. 

 

Everything you all have pointed as obsticles I have answered in my previous posts. Read above. 

 

If you can't believe it, then simply be happy and live your life as you know it. 

[N.T.M.]

I don't have what more to say you. You simply are not listening. 

 

Everything you all have pointed as obsticles I have answered in my previous posts. Read above. 

 

If you can't believe it, then simply be happy and live your life as you know it. 

 

Maybe you're talking to Shadowhawk. You haven't responded to the problem I presented about infinity. The only thing you said is that it's actually finite, but that's incorrect. If you still don't believe me, I could present a simple 2-dimensional case as an argument. I was thinking about this simpler case yesterday actually. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

The number of atoms entering in the system for a limited period of time is finite. For example for one year or from the creation of the Earth up to now. Finite atoms are entering. Not infinite. This finite number of atoms are interracting with the finite number of atoms in the Earth. Not possible this to be an infinite number of events situation.

 

I dont know what is your example, that you didnt represent lol I will try to explain you with my own example.

 

Here is my example:

 

In a box with a finite number of items (10 balls) you throw a finite number of new balls (2 new balls). The first ball can first hit randomly 1 of the 10 other balls. So you have 10 possible scenarios. When falling in the box the second can hit 1 of the 10+1=11 other balls in the basket. So you have 10+11=21 possible scenarios. Where is your infinite number of scenarios?

[N.T.M.]

The number of atoms entering in the system for a limited period of time is finite. For example for one year or from the creation of the Earth up to now. Finite atoms are entering. Not infinite. This finite number of atoms are interracting with the finite number of atoms in the Earth. Not possible this to be an infinite number of events situation.

 

As I said earlier, this has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You're talking about something completely different and unrelated to my point. Please read (or reread, if necessary) my earlier response.

 

 

 

The positions of particles, for example, that have left the atmosphere is still finite. 

 

Yes, since Earth's formation, a finite number of particles have crossed the boundary, but that's not what I said. I said that you don't have any information outside of the system, so you have to consider the effects of an infinite number of particles with an infinite number of positions, angular momentum, etc. There's just no way to predict what will pass through the boundary, so you have to account for all possibilities, of which there's an infinite number.

 

 

Also, although your example is unrelated to my earlier posts, I have to point out that your logic is incorrect. Specifically, you're counting scenarios incorrectly. If a single ball is crossing the boundary into the system (the box), assuming the qualities of the ball don't change, at a single entry point each entry angle would correspond to--that is, be deterministically mapped to--a different outcome (a different scenario). And how many of these scenarios are there? Well in theory you can subdivide an angle ad infinitum, so this means that, considering the entry angle alone, for a single entry point there's an uncountably infinite set of scenarios.

[Danail Bulgaria]

If each entry angle would correspond to a different outcome, then it is not impossible watching the end state (the outciome) you to suggest the angle.

 

And as I wrote you before you are trying to pull out of me the technology that cant be pulled out of me, because noone living today cant even imagine it.

 

If you take my example with suggesting the airplane while arguing can people fly, 2000 years ago, now we are discussing how impossible it is to build a wookden hand driven wings, covered with feathers, that we to wave to the nearest cloud, then have a rest on the soft cotton cloud, and wave back to the ground. You may be right. Exactly what we are discussing now, the very very same vision, that we have may not happen. But it may happen something far more advanced that to do make this on a way that simply is closed for us.

 

By the way while I tried to answer yesterday at the night, I got an interesting argument in my head. But exactly at that moment the power supply of my laptop went out suddenly and without any warning, I didnt manage to turn it on for some time, it was very late, and I went to bed. I didnt manage to turn on my laptop until that morning. This is a sign from the fate, that I must not write my last argument and most probabbly I have to go away from this topic. So, I wont telly you my last argument and I wish you good luck As a goodbye from this topic I will only answer the main question in it - is information lost in the Universe? No. It isn't because the holder of the information can be matter or energy. Mtter is made of energy, so the holder of information can be only energy. And energy is never lost. It only transforms from one type to another.

 

Here are my arguments so far in brief:

 

-everything is governed by laws of the science.

-if everything is governed by laws, then for everything there is a formula.

-if for everything formulas exist, then everything can be calculated both forwards and backwards.

-information in the Universe is not being lost, because the energy is not being lost (it only transforms from one type to another).

-missing information in extreme cases can be suggested by watching the present state and calculated as a different scenario.

-how exactly this can happen is a question for the very distant future. We can't neither know it, nor even suggest it.

 

 

Wish you all the best

[platypus]

seivtcho it's a bit frustrating to read you parroting your misconceptions about "formulas" etc. You should really drop the subject until you've studied some physics & math so that you at least understand the ciritique you are receiving.  

[N.T.M.]

I know that you've left the thread, but I'll respond to these two last points.

 

-if for everything formulas exist, then everything can be calculated both forwards and backwards.

 

This is a non sequitur. If you read my opening post, in fact, I provide an example of a system governed by formulas where previous states can't be calculated.

 

If each entry angle would correspond to a different outcome, then it is not impossible watching the end state (the outcome) you to suggest the angle.

 

This is incorrect. The information collected from Earth is basically a snapshot in time. It would include all particles, their positions, momentum, etc. The problem is that there's an infinite number of antecedents originating outside the system that could account for any particular snapshot. Because an infinite number of antecedents converge to the same snapshot, working backwards becomes impossible. Note that this is only because you're narrowing your scope from the entire system, the universe, to just a tiny subregion, Earth. This argument wouldn't hold if you examined the universe as a whole. This concept could also be illustrated with a 2-dimensional case with completely elastic collisions between balls in a defined space, but I don't think it's worth the effort.

 

To be clear, I'm not mad at you and I don't mean to come across as demeaning, but I can see that even if you were to stay, continuing our conversation would be pointless. 

[shadowhawk]

Seivtcho at least had guts to put it out here for debate.  For that thanks and good wishes.  You are very bright.