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Loving Death :: By Ronald Bailey


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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 27 February 2003 - 12:55 PM


Loving Death
"Early death, disease, disability: pro or con?"

By Ronald Bailey

How could someone seriously be in favor of early death, disease, and disability? Ask Francis Fukuyama, professor of international political economy at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies and author of Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the Biotechnology Revolution.

"Early death, disease, disability: pro or con?" is how Fukuyama characterized what was at stake in our recent debate on the ethics of dramatically extending human lifespans. (The debate was sponsored by the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the Alliance for Aging Research in Washington, D.C., as part of their Science of Aging Crossroads policy forum. The full debate is available as a webcast or transcript at the SAGE Crossroads Web site.)

He may not openly love death, disease, and disability, but Fukuyama is very, very worried about the effects that a biotech revolution leading to longer lifespans might have on human beings. And he does take seriously the arguments made by intellectuals strongly in favor of mortality. For example, Leon Kass, the chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, has asserted, "The finitude of human life is a blessing for every individual, whether he knows it or not." Or listen to out-of-the-closet thanatophile Daniel Callahan, co-founder of the bioethics think tank the Hastings Center, who has declared, "There is no known social good coming from the conquest of death."

What worries Fukuyama about longer human lifespans? Chiefly three things. First, he fears that our efforts to extend human life will create a nursing home world, filled with aging, miserable, debilitated people draining resources from the young to keep themselves alive. Second, he worries about the social consequences of longer lifespans and finally, he thinks that the "quest for immortality" will undermine our very humanity.

Let's tackle these worries. In defense of his fear of a nursing home planet, Fukuyama points out that as many as 50 percent of those who reach age 85 may have Alzheimer's disease. Of course, this disease is terrible, but keep in mind that the National Institutes of Health point out that Alzheimer's "is not a normal part of aging."


Complete Article: http://reason.com/ar...26/loving-death


Edited by caliban, 13 February 2015 - 09:59 PM.


#2 Mind

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:13 PM

An update from Ronald Bailey: http://reason.com/ar...-youth-for-all/

 

Now instead of talking in negative terms "Loving Death" and arguing against the deathist meme, Bailey is using the more positive terms "Eternal Youth" and arguing in favor of the immortalist meme.

 

BTW, during the intervening 11 years of posts in this thread, Bailey has consistently argued in favor of life extension.



#3 Russ Maughan

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 10:38 AM

I've died twice. Once when I was 2 years old from pneumonia and once in my early 20s when someone tried to poison me. Both times were wonderful but coming back was better. Total freedom is not what it is cracked up to be, or wasn't for me. I don't recall meeting anyone else that was dead. Just me. Unbound.



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#4 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 01:15 PM

Early death, disease, disability: pro or con hm... I wonder if those, who are pro would like they to die early in disease and disability?


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#5 A941

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 03:49 PM

Found this on youtube:

 

It doesnt make sense.



#6 N.T.M.

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 12:02 AM

"The finitude of human life is a blessing for every individual, whether he knows it or not." This sounds almost misanthropic. I don't understand how anybody could take a statement like this seriously.



#7 Mango

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 11:01 AM

I believe that people change their attitude dramatically once they become fully aware of their own mortality. Simply knowing that death is an inevitable end of a human life is not enough whilst actually being close to it changes the way we perceive it. There is not a single sane human being that would've opt for death on their death bed had someone offered immortality to them instead. Proximity to death brings panic, pain, fear, defecation and usually screams for mother, God, etc. There is nothing normal or natural about it. It is horrible and should be avoided if possible.

 

On a slightly different note, immortality assumes wisdom which in a case of today's scientists means a lot quicker (presumably better) way of solving problems, but also gives tools to those that have no respect of human life whatsoever to exploit it even more efficiently and radically. What would prevent global capitalists from puting a price tag on immortality and use it to control people to their own benefit? Who would decide who lives and who dies, and how to justify the decision itself, whatever the decision may be?

 

Personally I believe that aging is a disease that should be cured, but it would also allow greedy banksters and dictators to exploit those around them forever.

 

However, most people would be more mindful about their actions and words since they would have an eternity of time to regret them if not chosen carefully.

 

People would still breed and in a million years our offsprings would probably surpass our intellectual and physical abilities which would render us obsolete.

 

Still, who wouldn't want to live more than those 80 years (IF), 20 of which in sickness and erectile disfunction..?



#8 Antonio2014

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 07:59 AM

What would prevent global capitalists from puting a price tag on immortality and use it to control people to their own benefit? Who would decide who lives and who dies, and how to justify the decision itself, whatever the decision may be?

 

What would prevent non-capitalists from making the drugs and therapies themselves? The only thing that stops them now is patent law, but patent law, as any other law, needs people's support. Even in dictatorships there is a lot of people that support the dictator. With an overwhelming majority of the population against immortality patents and only a few billonaires supporting it, nobody will obey them and they will be quickly eliminated. Today, people respect medical patents because few people are mortally sick. When the majority of people realize that aging is a disease, and a curable one, nobody will be able to stop them from obtaining the cures, because it's the lives of all of them that are at risk. If government tries to stop them, revolution will ensue.


Edited by Antonio2014, 25 July 2015 - 08:02 AM.


#9 Mango

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:32 PM

 

What would prevent global capitalists from puting a price tag on immortality and use it to control people to their own benefit? Who would decide who lives and who dies, and how to justify the decision itself, whatever the decision may be?

 

 When the majority of people realize that aging is a disease, and a curable one, nobody will be able to stop them from obtaining the cures, because it's the lives of all of them that are at risk. If government tries to stop them, revolution will ensue.

 

 

Highly unrealistic..People can't produce their own anti-age/immortality medicine. Those are created and synthesized in laboratories which get funded by those billionaires, perhaps not always directly but through government programs and we all know that governments are there to control the mob and squeeze their juice through taxes and not to ensure peace and harmony, let alone immortality for the entire flock. If aging will ever be cured only few will have access to it, not all 7 bill people..You can't hang or impale someone for not giving you the cure for aging since you wouldn't know where to look for it afterwards.



#10 Antonio2014

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 08:23 PM

Producing medicines is cheap, what is expensive is the research and (above all) clinical trials.



#11 Mango

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 08:12 PM

Producing medicines is cheap, what is expensive is the research and (above all) clinical trials.

 

Producing iphones is cheap as well. Go ahead and produce one.



#12 Antonio2014

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 10:13 AM

Iphones aren't drugs.



#13 Mango

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 12:59 PM

Iphones aren't drugs.

 

Irrelevant. Production is dirt cheap, but the final price is humongous. Same with the drugs.



#14 Antonio2014

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 08:15 AM

Not irrelevant at all. To produce an iphone you need a big factory. For drugs, only a small lab is needed (of course, making drugs in a factory is cheaper). And for biological drugs (insuline, immunotherapies, ...) you only need to insert the correct genes into bacteria, yeast or plants and culture them. It's hugely cheap. Whatever the method you use (chemistry or bioengineering), even the most expensive cancer drug can be produced as cheaply as aspirin. It can be illegally produced in the same country (like meth) or (more probably) in more supportive countries and then illegally imported.

 

And, of course, if people produce drugs outside patent law, price and production cost wouldn't be much different, because (i) competition will be huge (a patent is a monopoly) and (ii) in the case of immortality drugs, unlike meth makers and big pharma, some people will not produce the drugs to become rich, but simply to help other people and themselves (anyway, meth is cheap if you know where to buy it).


Edited by Antonio2014, 28 July 2015 - 08:25 AM.


#15 Mango

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 09:21 AM

If no one has started to produce dirt cheap insuline, immunosuppressants, antihypertensives, etc. then no one ever will. In todays world life does not matter, only profit does. People kill for money, some directly with a gun, some indirectly by denying help to those that need it. Makes no difference..

 

It doesn't matter whether you need a huge factory to build iphones, since you pay workers a lot lot less than those that synthesise drugs. Factory price of an iphone is negligible.



#16 Antonio2014

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:26 AM

Insuline is dirt cheap to produce today. It's produced using transgenic E. coli or S. cerevisae. Years ago it must be extracted from pigs at very low amounts, huge costs and high risk of infection to the patient. In the last years there is an economic bubble on insuline price, due to the fact that patent law still applies, because pure insuline is not sold but insuline plus other substances (substances that delay absorption of insuline, adjust the pH, etc.) and also because, instead of insuline, (supposedly) better and newer substances (insuline analogues) are sold. Again, patent law doesn't matter to illegal producers, so prices will not be so inflated.

 

Factory price for an iphone is negligible because it's mass-produced. But factories are expensive. See Rock's law.

 

Anyway, there is a separate reason because antiaging medicines will be dirty cheap to buy. In a world with effective antiaging medicine, the state simply can't afford that a significant amount of the population still age and thus needs retirement, pensions, paliative care... Simply the alternative to an immortal population is too high a burden for any nation that antiaging medicine's price will be basically zero.


Edited by Antonio2014, 28 July 2015 - 10:31 AM.


#17 Duchykins

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 05:14 AM

What worries Fukuyama about longer human lifespans? Chiefly three things. First, he fears that our efforts to extend human life will create a nursing home world, filled with aging, miserable, debilitated people draining resources from the young to keep themselves alive. Second, he worries about the social consequences of longer lifespans and finally, he thinks that the "quest for immortality" will undermine our very humanity.
 

 

 

This entire notion flies in the face of evolution, his whole argument faintly reeks of Social Darwinism, which has never been a scientifically sound concept.  Thank goodness he is not a biologist, I would be quite surprised and disappointed to see such sentiments from a biologist.

 

Let's tackle these worries. In defense of his fear of a nursing home planet, Fukuyama points out that as many as 50 percent of those who reach age 85 may have Alzheimer's disease. Of course, this disease is terrible, but keep in mind that the National Institutes of Health point out that Alzheimer's "is not a normal part of aging."

 

This is a silly thing to say in this context and its only purpose to is to alarm people into suspecting some validity in his position; nearly every disease falls outside of "normal aging."

 

When it is said that Alzheimer's is not part of normal aging, that statement is intended to dispel common misconceptions about Alzheimer's (that it is a real disease and not something acquired due to age, and can strike younger people).  

 

It does not suggest that there is something morally wrong with people living long enough to develop it.


Edited by Duchykins, 02 August 2015 - 05:15 AM.


#18 Duchykins

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 05:21 AM

Not irrelevant at all. To produce an iphone you need a big factory. For drugs, only a small lab is needed (of course, making drugs in a factory is cheaper). And for biological drugs (insuline, immunotherapies, ...) you only need to insert the correct genes into bacteria, yeast or plants and culture them. It's hugely cheap. Whatever the method you use (chemistry or bioengineering), even the most expensive cancer drug can be produced as cheaply as aspirin. It can be illegally produced in the same country (like meth) or (more probably) in more supportive countries and then illegally imported.

 

And, of course, if people produce drugs outside patent law, price and production cost wouldn't be much different, because (i) competition will be huge (a patent is a monopoly) and (ii) in the case of immortality drugs, unlike meth makers and big pharma, some people will not produce the drugs to become rich, but simply to help other people and themselves (anyway, meth is cheap if you know where to buy it).

 

Wisest thing posted in this thread so far.  :happy:

 

There will always be idealists among us, that take up a cause and dedicate their lives to it, and we continuously benefit from them.



#19 Mango

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:00 AM

 

Not irrelevant at all. To produce an iphone you need a big factory. For drugs, only a small lab is needed (of course, making drugs in a factory is cheaper). And for biological drugs (insuline, immunotherapies, ...) you only need to insert the correct genes into bacteria, yeast or plants and culture them. It's hugely cheap. Whatever the method you use (chemistry or bioengineering), even the most expensive cancer drug can be produced as cheaply as aspirin. It can be illegally produced in the same country (like meth) or (more probably) in more supportive countries and then illegally imported.

 

And, of course, if people produce drugs outside patent law, price and production cost wouldn't be much different, because (i) competition will be huge (a patent is a monopoly) and (ii) in the case of immortality drugs, unlike meth makers and big pharma, some people will not produce the drugs to become rich, but simply to help other people and themselves (anyway, meth is cheap if you know where to buy it).

 

Wisest thing posted in this thread so far.  :happy:

 

There will always be idealists among us, that take up a cause and dedicate their lives to it, and we continuously benefit from them.

 

The reality is, if you find a medicine that would enable immortality and try to give it away for free, you will be killed. They will murder you without thinking twice. It doesn't have to be with a gun. They are comfortable with bringing down entire 747s for a single person to make it look like an accident. Wake up.

 


Edited by Mango, 03 August 2015 - 08:01 AM.


#20 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:32 AM

What? Who are they? And why will they kill you? Indeed, I found the opposite to be much more likely. If you try to prevent most of the people from obtaining it, that people will do whatever they need to obtain it, including killing you. I quote from a comment at FightAging! that better explains it:

 

Too many people are paranoid of the whole "rich people want to keep it for themselves" thing.

 

I think the arguments against that are of five separate types: the moral, the financial, the social, the practical, and the consequential.

 

The moral: This is probably the weakest argument, but restricting access to longevity therapies is against the morality and ideologies of everyone involved in the business. Seriously, pick a name you recognize at SENS, Calico, the Buck Institute, anywhere; I guarantee that person will be opposed to restricting longevity therapies to any subset of people. Now, it could be that a few of these people are secretly uneasy with the idea of the world's worst, most useless, people also getting it, but they aren't dumb enough to say that out loud, because the overall morality is one of global access to longevity. (Expect the same with future transhumanization, most notably intelligence improvements.)

 

The financial: This is probably the stickiest part. "You won't be able to afford it" is a lot more credible than "It will be kept from you". People seeking wealth want to charge a lot of money for their products, especially to effectively captive audiences, and so overpriced drugs are a real problem. However, insurance companies will be a lot more willing to either negotiate those prices down or simply pay them anyway, because fixing problems in one shot is a hell of a lot cheaper (and easier to sell!) than prolonged end-of-life (also known as slow death) care. That's for private insurance; countries with socialized medical care don't charge their citizens. Similarly, the U.S. government, facing eleven-figure debts to the elderly, will find it much, much cheaper to keep these people out of nursing homes if it can't just eliminate the "elderly" category altogether. A lot of organizations offer assistance for people who can't afford lifesaving medical care, which is what this is. And prices always, inevitably, drop at some point, just as they have for everything else.

 

The social: People live in monkeyspheres, which intersect with other monkeyspheres, ad infinitum. Does the security guard's crippled mom get regenerative therapy for her aged spine? (Probably yes, you don't want to piss off your security people.) Okay, now this woman has a lot of friends her age who just watched her toss aside her wheelchair. Perhaps they have wheelchairs of their own they'd like to discard. She'll be asking him when they can get it, too, and it'll filter to his boss, who likely has a lot of other people suggesting to him that their friends, or their friends' friends, should get it at an affordable price. It's difficult to quantify the weight of this pressure, the power of literally everyone you know going "Listen, my mom's gonna die if she doesn't get..." SENS already has a lot of people going "uh, so yeah, when can I get fixed?" even though there aren't even any human treatments yet. Imagine the cacophony when there are! And then there's the clinicians whose patients can't afford it but need it to keep breathing.

 

The practical: Competitors have a wonderful habit of popping out of the woodwork once it's proven that a thing can be done. If your prices are too high, someone else does it for cheaper. You can't keep it a secret, and it's a hell of a job to prevent everyone, everywhere, from copying your techniques. The battle between generic manufacturers and patent holders is well-known, and that's for stuff that barely even works, let alone makes fundamental parts of people younger! (And, of course, a lot of these drugs will be fake, causing news headlines and a lot more screaming.) What happens if some large country just goes "Screw your patents" and institutes a national longevity program?

 

The consequential: Okay. Let's say that longevity treatments were, against all odds, somehow bought out and controlled by a cabal hell-bent on keeping them from the masses, charging tremendous amounts of money, refusing to listen to social appeals, and instituting global draconian patent protection to keep anyone else, even Eurosocialist countries, China, and Russia, from copying their techniques and making them available to the general public. What happens when literally everyone in the world is dying of old age, except for a few people who aren't? What might everyone do? Riots in the street would be the go-to approach, although it probably wouldn't even get that far; any candidate who ran on a "These people are getting indefinitely rejuvenated right now, vote for me and you won't rot to death" platform would sail to victory. If the democratic process failed to the point where that wouldn't be effective (and now we are firmly in implausible nightmare world), people might do literally anything in response. It's their lives at stake! All-out corporate hacking, robbery, hostage-taking, assassinations, outright terrorism of the splodey and shooty variety, you name it. A hotel maid, whose father died of curable Parkinson's, hands a door keycard to a man whose older brother died of curable atherosclerosis, and in a few minutes that maid has a lot more to clean up. A jaundiced gasoline truck driver, who's just been told that his insurance won't cover the really effective stuff for his pancreatic cancer, spies a Ferrari driven by a 60-year-old teenager on the other side of a double yellow. All he has to do is turn the wheel a little bit to the left. If you're trying to live forever, it's not a good idea to live in a world where everyone has a reason to kill you.

 

https://www.fightagi...n-the-world.php


Edited by Antonio2014, 03 August 2015 - 08:45 AM.


#21 Mango

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 03:14 PM

The financial: This is probably the stickiest part. "You won't be able to afford it" is a lot more credible than "It will be kept from you". People seeking wealth want to charge a lot of money for their products, especially to effectively captive audiences, and so overpriced drugs are a real problem.



As I was saying before in my posts, drugs are overpriced and those don't even come close to "death" cure.

 

People die every day so the rich may live. For example, imagine that you have to submit yourself to appendix surgery, nothing fancy but, oops, a "complication" occurs and you die. Of course, there was no complication but tissue biopsy showed compatibility between you and some 80 yo demented old fart who needs a pair of new kidneys, heart and possibly a liver. Tough luck, because if you are not influental or rich, just a regular dude, they will kill you and take your organs out. If you are not aware of what I've just said or you find it to be a "conspiracy theory" (term which is regulary used to rediculize very touchy subjects) then you probably can't comprehend the depths of their psychopathology. The world is not what you think it is.

 

https://theremustbej...syrians-organs/

 

Why are wars started? For one, to pauperize the country, to give it an international loan in order to control it through interests. Why did the USA invade Iraq? In order to keep the american high standard and the cheapest gas in the world, someone had to die.

 

 

Why are Foxcon workers paid so little for so much work? Because Iphones are expensive in production?

 

foxconn.jpg

 

Most of humanity is treated like cattle or worse. Do you honestly believe that people from the image above will be presented with an immortality solution? They are payed so little so someone else can pay for expensive hookers, cocaine, yachts and cars. In order for someone to live his life in ecstasy others have to die slowly in agony. From sneakers produced in child factories onwards, people die (this way or another) for your very own personal comfort and pleasure.

 

Who are they you ask? Plutocratic elite that runs the world. Those that have so much money that it bears no relevance to them anymore, oh so they want to believe. They thrive to acquire power instead. The power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. From soldiers that get erections (sometimes ejaculations) when they kill another human being to politicians that draw maps of future borders, it all comes down to power. Ability to control people and tell them to do something, that's what all is about. People that have experienced it will do anything imaginable to sustain it. You can't reason with them or play on the sympathy card, because they have none. Not for you.

 

If people rebel they will get shot like dogs. Like they were shot in the USA, Turkey, etc. Either that or they will get sacked from work and kicked out of their homes for not paying bills. Death and starvation are tools which they use to control entire continents.

 

There are those that rule, those that force the will of the first group and those that provide wool (which is the most of us).

 

sheep_herd.jpg

 

Bon appetit.


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#22 Antonio2014

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 03:28 PM

What?? Do you pick a sentence out of context and ignore the rest of the arguments?

 

Au revoir.


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#23 Duchykins

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:48 PM

The reality is, if you find a medicine that would enable immortality and try to give it away for free, you will be killed. They will murder you without thinking twice. It doesn't have to be with a gun. They are comfortable with bringing down entire 747s for a single person to make it look like an accident. Wake up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, I need to get my tinfoil hat.


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#24 Duchykins

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:55 PM

What? Who are they? And why will they kill you? Indeed, I found the opposite to be much more likely. If you try to prevent most of the people from obtaining it, that people will do whatever they need to obtain it, including killing you. I quote from a comment at FightAging! that better explains it:

 

Too many people are paranoid of the whole "rich people want to keep it for themselves" thing.

 

I think the arguments against that are of five separate types: the moral, the financial, the social, the practical, and the consequential.

 

The moral: This is probably the weakest argument, but restricting access to longevity therapies is against the morality and ideologies of everyone involved in the business. Seriously, pick a name you recognize at SENS, Calico, the Buck Institute, anywhere; I guarantee that person will be opposed to restricting longevity therapies to any subset of people. Now, it could be that a few of these people are secretly uneasy with the idea of the world's worst, most useless, people also getting it, but they aren't dumb enough to say that out loud, because the overall morality is one of global access to longevity. (Expect the same with future transhumanization, most notably intelligence improvements.)

 

The financial: This is probably the stickiest part. "You won't be able to afford it" is a lot more credible than "It will be kept from you". People seeking wealth want to charge a lot of money for their products, especially to effectively captive audiences, and so overpriced drugs are a real problem. However, insurance companies will be a lot more willing to either negotiate those prices down or simply pay them anyway, because fixing problems in one shot is a hell of a lot cheaper (and easier to sell!) than prolonged end-of-life (also known as slow death) care. That's for private insurance; countries with socialized medical care don't charge their citizens. Similarly, the U.S. government, facing eleven-figure debts to the elderly, will find it much, much cheaper to keep these people out of nursing homes if it can't just eliminate the "elderly" category altogether. A lot of organizations offer assistance for people who can't afford lifesaving medical care, which is what this is. And prices always, inevitably, drop at some point, just as they have for everything else.

 

The social: People live in monkeyspheres, which intersect with other monkeyspheres, ad infinitum. Does the security guard's crippled mom get regenerative therapy for her aged spine? (Probably yes, you don't want to piss off your security people.) Okay, now this woman has a lot of friends her age who just watched her toss aside her wheelchair. Perhaps they have wheelchairs of their own they'd like to discard. She'll be asking him when they can get it, too, and it'll filter to his boss, who likely has a lot of other people suggesting to him that their friends, or their friends' friends, should get it at an affordable price. It's difficult to quantify the weight of this pressure, the power of literally everyone you know going "Listen, my mom's gonna die if she doesn't get..." SENS already has a lot of people going "uh, so yeah, when can I get fixed?" even though there aren't even any human treatments yet. Imagine the cacophony when there are! And then there's the clinicians whose patients can't afford it but need it to keep breathing.

 

The practical: Competitors have a wonderful habit of popping out of the woodwork once it's proven that a thing can be done. If your prices are too high, someone else does it for cheaper. You can't keep it a secret, and it's a hell of a job to prevent everyone, everywhere, from copying your techniques. The battle between generic manufacturers and patent holders is well-known, and that's for stuff that barely even works, let alone makes fundamental parts of people younger! (And, of course, a lot of these drugs will be fake, causing news headlines and a lot more screaming.) What happens if some large country just goes "Screw your patents" and institutes a national longevity program?

 

The consequential: Okay. Let's say that longevity treatments were, against all odds, somehow bought out and controlled by a cabal hell-bent on keeping them from the masses, charging tremendous amounts of money, refusing to listen to social appeals, and instituting global draconian patent protection to keep anyone else, even Eurosocialist countries, China, and Russia, from copying their techniques and making them available to the general public. What happens when literally everyone in the world is dying of old age, except for a few people who aren't? What might everyone do? Riots in the street would be the go-to approach, although it probably wouldn't even get that far; any candidate who ran on a "These people are getting indefinitely rejuvenated right now, vote for me and you won't rot to death" platform would sail to victory. If the democratic process failed to the point where that wouldn't be effective (and now we are firmly in implausible nightmare world), people might do literally anything in response. It's their lives at stake! All-out corporate hacking, robbery, hostage-taking, assassinations, outright terrorism of the splodey and shooty variety, you name it. A hotel maid, whose father died of curable Parkinson's, hands a door keycard to a man whose older brother died of curable atherosclerosis, and in a few minutes that maid has a lot more to clean up. A jaundiced gasoline truck driver, who's just been told that his insurance won't cover the really effective stuff for his pancreatic cancer, spies a Ferrari driven by a 60-year-old teenager on the other side of a double yellow. All he has to do is turn the wheel a little bit to the left. If you're trying to live forever, it's not a good idea to live in a world where everyone has a reason to kill you.

 

https://www.fightagi...n-the-world.php

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with you.  I would think that given the insane amount of power the extremely wealthy have, if such a drug were made they would keep it for themselves instead of trying to destroy it.  Or hoard the patent and make a killing selling the drug for billions to people who are wealthy enough to buy their own islands.

 

If a bunch of  fat cat bankers can defraud America and get away with it despite being caught with irrefutable and public evidence, because they're "too big to prosecute"  (my jaw literally dropped when I heard that on the news) then who knows what else the extremely rich can do ...


Edited by Duchykins, 03 August 2015 - 04:57 PM.

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#25 Mango

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:26 PM

 

What? Who are they? And why will they kill you? Indeed, I found the opposite to be much more likely. If you try to prevent most of the people from obtaining it, that people will do whatever they need to obtain it, including killing you. I quote from a comment at FightAging! that better explains it:

 

Too many people are paranoid of the whole "rich people want to keep it for themselves" thing.

 

I think the arguments against that are of five separate types: the moral, the financial, the social, the practical, and the consequential.

 

The moral: This is probably the weakest argument, but restricting access to longevity therapies is against the morality and ideologies of everyone involved in the business. Seriously, pick a name you recognize at SENS, Calico, the Buck Institute, anywhere; I guarantee that person will be opposed to restricting longevity therapies to any subset of people. Now, it could be that a few of these people are secretly uneasy with the idea of the world's worst, most useless, people also getting it, but they aren't dumb enough to say that out loud, because the overall morality is one of global access to longevity. (Expect the same with future transhumanization, most notably intelligence improvements.)

 

The financial: This is probably the stickiest part. "You won't be able to afford it" is a lot more credible than "It will be kept from you". People seeking wealth want to charge a lot of money for their products, especially to effectively captive audiences, and so overpriced drugs are a real problem. However, insurance companies will be a lot more willing to either negotiate those prices down or simply pay them anyway, because fixing problems in one shot is a hell of a lot cheaper (and easier to sell!) than prolonged end-of-life (also known as slow death) care. That's for private insurance; countries with socialized medical care don't charge their citizens. Similarly, the U.S. government, facing eleven-figure debts to the elderly, will find it much, much cheaper to keep these people out of nursing homes if it can't just eliminate the "elderly" category altogether. A lot of organizations offer assistance for people who can't afford lifesaving medical care, which is what this is. And prices always, inevitably, drop at some point, just as they have for everything else.

 

The social: People live in monkeyspheres, which intersect with other monkeyspheres, ad infinitum. Does the security guard's crippled mom get regenerative therapy for her aged spine? (Probably yes, you don't want to piss off your security people.) Okay, now this woman has a lot of friends her age who just watched her toss aside her wheelchair. Perhaps they have wheelchairs of their own they'd like to discard. She'll be asking him when they can get it, too, and it'll filter to his boss, who likely has a lot of other people suggesting to him that their friends, or their friends' friends, should get it at an affordable price. It's difficult to quantify the weight of this pressure, the power of literally everyone you know going "Listen, my mom's gonna die if she doesn't get..." SENS already has a lot of people going "uh, so yeah, when can I get fixed?" even though there aren't even any human treatments yet. Imagine the cacophony when there are! And then there's the clinicians whose patients can't afford it but need it to keep breathing.

 

The practical: Competitors have a wonderful habit of popping out of the woodwork once it's proven that a thing can be done. If your prices are too high, someone else does it for cheaper. You can't keep it a secret, and it's a hell of a job to prevent everyone, everywhere, from copying your techniques. The battle between generic manufacturers and patent holders is well-known, and that's for stuff that barely even works, let alone makes fundamental parts of people younger! (And, of course, a lot of these drugs will be fake, causing news headlines and a lot more screaming.) What happens if some large country just goes "Screw your patents" and institutes a national longevity program?

 

The consequential: Okay. Let's say that longevity treatments were, against all odds, somehow bought out and controlled by a cabal hell-bent on keeping them from the masses, charging tremendous amounts of money, refusing to listen to social appeals, and instituting global draconian patent protection to keep anyone else, even Eurosocialist countries, China, and Russia, from copying their techniques and making them available to the general public. What happens when literally everyone in the world is dying of old age, except for a few people who aren't? What might everyone do? Riots in the street would be the go-to approach, although it probably wouldn't even get that far; any candidate who ran on a "These people are getting indefinitely rejuvenated right now, vote for me and you won't rot to death" platform would sail to victory. If the democratic process failed to the point where that wouldn't be effective (and now we are firmly in implausible nightmare world), people might do literally anything in response. It's their lives at stake! All-out corporate hacking, robbery, hostage-taking, assassinations, outright terrorism of the splodey and shooty variety, you name it. A hotel maid, whose father died of curable Parkinson's, hands a door keycard to a man whose older brother died of curable atherosclerosis, and in a few minutes that maid has a lot more to clean up. A jaundiced gasoline truck driver, who's just been told that his insurance won't cover the really effective stuff for his pancreatic cancer, spies a Ferrari driven by a 60-year-old teenager on the other side of a double yellow. All he has to do is turn the wheel a little bit to the left. If you're trying to live forever, it's not a good idea to live in a world where everyone has a reason to kill you.

 

https://www.fightagi...n-the-world.php

 

 

I'm inclined to agree with you.  I would think that given the insane amount of power the extremely wealthy have, if such a drug were made they would keep it for themselves instead of trying to destroy it.  Or hoard the patent and make a killing selling the drug for billions to people who are wealthy enough to buy their own islands.

 

If a bunch of  fat cat bankers can defraud America and get away with it despite being caught with irrefutable and public evidence, because they're "too big to prosecute"  (my jaw literally dropped when I heard that on the news) then who knows what else the extremely rich can do ...

 

 

Perhaps you do not realise this, but you are basically saying what I tried to say in the first place. The drug will NOT be available for everyone and no petty revolution schemes will alter that, period. Rich are not subjected to laws, never have been and never will. Prison is for poor and uneducated people.
 


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#26 Duchykins

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:53 PM

 

 

Perhaps you do not realise this, but you are basically saying what I tried to say in the first place. The drug will NOT be available for everyone and no petty revolution schemes will alter that, period. Rich are not subjected to laws, never have been and never will. Prison is for poor and uneducated people.
 

 

 

No, what you said was this:

 

The reality is, if you find a medicine that would enable immortality and try to give it away for free, you will be killed. They will murder you without thinking twice. It doesn't have to be with a gun. They are comfortable with bringing down entire 747s for a single person to make it look like an accident. Wake up.

 

 

You said: 

 

1) the discoverer of the drug would be killed (I said the rich would take it for themselves - actually I think they would probably try to employ whomever made it since that is the smartest move.  In any case they wouldn't need to kill for it, there would be less interest and investigation into a suspicious death than a theft)

 

2) they would kill hundreds just to get at one person (you also implied they already have)  ... I wouldn't touch anything near that with a ten-foot pole.  

 

I almost expect you to say something about the Illuminati 

 

 

 

 

Revolutions can work.  It's always about the level of anger and resolve in the public. 

 

But I'm curious as to why you think "petty revolution schemes" are petty.


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#27 Mango

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 12:12 PM

Ah, where do I start from..

 

The rich will kill anyone trying to give the drug for free. Naturally the rich will want the power that comes with the possesion of such a drug..As you said, there is nothing rich people can't/won't do..

 

Revolutions..? Always financed from the outside. Never spontaneous. October revolution in Russia, directed by Germans who gave lots of gold to Lenin in order to get rid of Russia from the WWI, for example.

 

Everything is orchestrated for the benefit of the outside party.

 

USA didn't invade France in Normandy to attack Hitler, but to prevent Stalin from spreading too far on the west. The USA invaded France to stop the communism wave.

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

With time and some experience you will understand.

 

Most of the stuff they taught you is rubish. It's not your fault.


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#28 Duchykins

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 02:06 PM

We know the US invade to stop communism.

Are you on medication? Serious question?
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#29 Mango

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 04:15 PM

We know the US invade to stop communism.

 

It is not what is taught in schools.

 

What about revolutions? Do you believe that Romanovs were slain because people wanted it?

 

Seriously or not, but you are way too gullible and I don't mean it as an insult, but as a fact..



#30 Duchykins

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Posted 04 August 2015 - 04:38 PM

 

 

 

It is not what is taught in schools.

 

What about revolutions? Do you believe that Romanovs were slain because people wanted it?

 

Seriously or not, but you are way too gullible and I don't mean it as an insult, but as a fact..

 

 

That bit about the WWII was taught to me in school. You are a liar.

 

I have no interest in history, I spend my time on science and philosophy, so I don't know anything about the Russians and probably more than half of the nutty shit you believe.  I really couldn't care less.

 

Seriously or not, you're an idiot.  Or a nutter.  Take your pick.

 

Did you know that it's possible to be too gullible for anti-intellectual garbage just because you have a suspicious and conservative personality?

 

You embody it.

 

Bye.


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