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Default Mode Network (DMN) Modulation using Transcranial Direct-Current Stimulation (tDCS) via Tongue

tdcs transcranial direct-current stimulation depression add adhd anxiety mediation alzheimers default mode network dmn

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#1 falconfocus

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 11:37 PM


Default Mode Network (DMN) Modulation using Transcranial Direct-Current Stimulation (tDCS) via Tongue

 

(I was having a hard time figuring out where to post this, but someone told me to post it here... sorry for multiple posts... this is the first new topic I have started, but I think it's really important to get the word out. I look forward to your feedback.)

 

Here is a video on YouTube.com discussing tDCS montage with cathode on tongue which may help modulate the default mode network (DMN).

 

 

Has anyone tried this? Any feedback on experience would be greatly appreciated!


Edited by falconfocus, 24 January 2017 - 11:38 PM.

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#2 TerryFirmer

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 12:07 PM

That's interesting. It kinda reminds me of the Symtonic LEET machine invented by Boris Pasche, intended to improve sleep. It used one electrode on the tongue. AFAIK it never reached production.

 

"Electroencephalographic Changes Following Low Energy Emission Therapy

by J. P. Lebet, A. Barbault, C. Rossel, Z. Tomic, M. Reite, L. Higgs, U. Dafani, D. Amato, and B. Pasche
Symtonic USA, Inc., New York, NY

Low Energy Emission Therapy (LEET) is a novel approach to deliver low levels of amplitude-modulated electromagnetic (EM) fields to the human brain. The sleep EEG effects of a 15-minute LEET treatment were investigated in a double-blind cross-over study i n order to assess sleep induction. Fifty two healthy volunteers were exposed to both active and inactive LEET treatment sessions, with a minimum interval of one week between the two sessions. Baseline EEGs were obtained and 15-minute post-treatment EEGs were recorded and analyzed according to the Loomis classification.

A significant increase in the duration of stage B1 sleep (mean 0.58 S.D. 2.42 min, p=0.046), decreased latency to sleep stage B1 (mean -1.23 S.D. 5.32 min, p = 0.051) and decreased latency to sleep stage B2 (mean -1.21 S.D. 5.25 min, p = 0.052) were ob served after active treatment. Additionally, establishment of slow waves with progression from stages B to C was significantly more pronounced after active LEET treatment (p = 0.040). A combined analysis of these results with those of an identical study performed in Denver showed that LEET had a significant effect on afternoon sleep induction and maintenance with shorter sleep latencies (decreased latency to sleep stage B1: mean -1.00 S.D. 5.51 min, p = 0.033; decreased latency to sleep stage B2: mean -1.49 S.D 5.40 min, p = 0.003), an increased duration of stage B2 (mean 0.67 S.D. 2.50 min, p = 0.003), an increase in the total duration of sleep (mean 0.69 S.D. 4.21 min, p = 0.049) and a more prominent establishment of slow waves with progression t o a deeper sleep stage (p = 0.006). It is concluded that the intermittent 42.7 Hz amplitude-modulation of 27.12 MHz electromagnetic fields results in EEG changes consistent with shorter sleep latencies, longer sleep duration, and deeper sleep in healthy subjects."

 

AND

 

"Electromagnetic field works better than sleeping pills without side effects
Effects of low energy emission therapy in chronic psychophysiological insomnia.
Boris Pasche et al.

Low energy emission therapy (LEET) is a technology based on the same radio frequency electromagnetic fields used in magnetic resonance imaging. The difference is that LEET is designed not to diagnose illness, but to cure it. The illness in question is insomnia, and LEET can aid insomniacs by promoting changes in the brain, itself an electrical organ. Electroencephalograms have shown how LEET can cause healthy subjects to wind down after just 15 minutes of therapy. Not only do test subjects tend to feel more relaxed, measurements of brain activity show that they really are more relaxed. It seems only logical that a device that causes such changes should help insomniacs to relax and sleep at night.

To test that hypothesis, researchers recruited 106 volunteers with insomnia through the Scripps Clinic in La Jolla, California, and the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver. Slightly over half of the subjects were women, and their average age was 40. Their sleeping patterns were assessed using polysomnography, a complete sleep evaluation that monitors breathing, heartbeat, eye movement, muscle movement and a range of other factors. Once exhaustive data had been compiled on how each patient slept, they were introduced to the somewhat bizarre-looking LEET.

What is the LEET?

The LEET could be said to resemble an electric spoon attached by a coaxial cable to a bedside alarm clock/radio. The aluminum spoon or mouthpiece is, in fact, a radio antenna, which receives a signal from the signal generator box beside the bed. The subjects lay down in bed in a quiet, dimly lit room three times a week in the afternoon, and placed the mouthpiece between the tongue and palate for 20 minutes. The mouthpiece, in contact with the patient's oral mucosa, generated an electromagnetic field within each individual's brain. Once the treatment was concluded, each patient would go on his or her way. They recorded their sleeping patterns each night for the entire four weeks of the trial. Exactly half of the subjects, however, were using inactive LEET devices that transmitted no signal at all, though they did not know that at the time. Comparisons of the two groups showed that the group receiving electromagnetic signals had slightly worse insomnia by standard measures going into the test period.

At the end of the four-week period, researchers compared the somnographic records of both groups, and found that while a placebo effect had increased total sleep time in the dummy-device patients by about 13 minutes, the group using the real LEET had gained an average of over an hour-and-a-quarter in extra sleep, a 26% gain. They were also far ahead in two other basic parameters of sleep: sleep latency (the number of minutes spent in bed before dropping off) and sleep efficiency (the total amount of time asleep as a proportion of the total amount of time spent in bed trying to sleep). Again a placebo effect had reduced latency in the dummy group by about six minutes to an average of about 28 minutes, but the LEET group's average latency had fallen by almost 22 minutes to just over 18 -- a reduction of over half to a level that's considered normal for human sleep. Sleep efficiency in the dummy group increased by 5.5% to 73.7%, while in the LEET group it climbed 16% to 78.6% (it had been worse to start with). In the volunteers with the worst insomnia, who fell in the bottom 50% on all sleep parameters, total sleep time with the LEET increased by an average one hour 42 minutes.

The patterns of sleep appeared to have changed, too. There was a three times greater increase in rapid-eye movement (REM) sleep in the LEET group than in the placebo group. That change has important implications in terms of sleep quality and restorative value. The LEET group was going through a more natural sleep progression, with 30% more cycles -- a different result from that normally obtained with sleeping pills, which tend to suppress certain natural sleep stages. There was also less time spent awake after first falling asleep -- 55 minutes less -- in the LEET group, as opposed to only about 31 minutes less in the dummy-device group.

Finally, unless one includes increased awareness of dreaming as a side effect, there were no negative changes associated with the use of the LEET. It appears to produce a more natural sleep than pharmacological remedies, but without memory loss, mood changes, daytime drowsiness or hangover. Most of those patients who did dream more considered it a positive change, and most sleep specialists would agree that it is likely to indicate physiologically more valuable sleep. LEET therapy also did not appear to be weakened by rebound insomnia, as are many drugs. Indeed, subjective data analysis from other studies suggests that while benzodiazepines give their best results in the first week of use and then become less effective, LEET doesn't really begin working until the seventh or eighth treatment (about 18 days). How does it work? That's still something of a mystery. Laboratory testing will hopefully reveal more about exactly what electromagnetic fields do within the human brain."

 

Sorry for the long post, but I would kill to get my hands on one of these LEET things! I have the circuit diagrams for it but neither the skills nor resources to get it built.



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#3 falconfocus

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 06:35 PM

Thanks for this comment TerryFirmer --- I'll look more into this, because i've been doing some of this tongue tDCS at night and I think I am finding it super helpful at getting to sleep easier -- both from a motivation point of view... like "hey, it's time to get in bed, damnit." and an "okay now close your eyes and fade off" perspective.

 

I have been testing the anode on different parts of the head and experienced some strong childhood memories with some deep honesty/exploration attached to them that was emotional, but at the same time I felt my emotions were restricted. like I wanted to cry... felt like crying,,, but couldn't really, or was able to control it (not sure). that's unusual for me. i'm normally emotional at the drop of a hat. that was with the anode directly on top of head. I also woke up early and felt refreshed after about 6 hours of sleep. maybe wish I could have slept for another hour... but overall, felt really good. also woke up easier. in some sense, it was like when I take an adderall before bed. I seem to wake up easier and get going in the morning.

 

this morning I was trying to induce some math skills using the anode on the rear left parietal lobe.... not sure what that did differently. i don't feel particularly math wizardy yet.

 

i think applying to left frontal cortex puts me closer to a zen type/mindfulness state that is really nice.

 

 



#4 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:08 PM

Question here... do you actually have any symptoms which would imply problems with engaging your default mode network, or an illness which have been found to be related to such issues?

 

This is still very untested stuff, and I don't think it can be recommended you try it on yourself and operate it yourself as well - I'm fairly sure none of the experiments have been done with the patients administering tDCS on themselves!

 

And wouldn't this work much better if you had a more direct line of neurofeedback to register how your electrical impulses are actually objectively altered? Perhaps it's a better idea if you look into getting yourself some sort of neuro-scanning device first, or at least find some sort of way of measuring your cognitive or emotional response via a test-battery of some kind.

 

 

For cognitive issues, there is of course always Cambridge Brain Sciences neuro-testing:

 

http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/

 

 

EDIT:

 

If you're interested in learning more about various neuroimaging techniques, and how to figure out what to look for, or just understanding that sort of stuff, then check out these resources:

 

 

https://www.openscie...rg/p/s/1838127/

 

http://openneu.ro/start/

 

Science AMA Series: We are the neuroscientists who started the Open Neuroimaging Lab, a winner of the Open Science Prize - AMA

https://www.reddit.c...scientists_who/


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 25 January 2017 - 10:21 PM.


#5 falconfocus

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 06:01 PM

I just listened to the tDCS podcast by Radiolab here:

 

http://www.radiolab....9-volt-nirvana/

 

I really wish I had listened to this in full when I first was learning about tDCS. Sally Adee, the journalist who really brought light on the DARPA tDCS project for sniper training -- and experienced it herself, pretty much described to a T, without using the words Default Mode Network (DMN), what it means to turn off or dial down the DMN. I didn't get her full experience when I used the DARPA montage -- though I got a bit of it the first few days, but then it changed a little. With the tongue montage, I get pretty much the exact same experience she describes.

 

As an interesting aside, if you have never done tDCS, I would recommend giving the stereograms a try by googling for them.... then doing some tongue tDCS and see how much faster and more detailed you can key in on the stereograms. On tDCS I can dial right in crazy fast in great detail... i didn't do a pre-test because I do tDCS all the time now, but I remember doing these in the past and I always had a hell of a time -- like 30 minutes sometimes and then it would still be hard to stay in the zone to view them... often going in and out and in and out... not anymore.


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#6 falconfocus

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 01:07 AM

I meant to include these links in my original posting of the video.

 

These are the videos referenced during the talk:

 

Dr Raichle on DMN: -- continues to a second video for those interested in finding that one....

 

Dr. Yvette Sheline on Depression and DMN:

 

I suggest watching these first if you are just learning about tDCS: PBS coverage of tDCS:

 

Air Force video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqqE3oRSkAw

 

and then I just watched this video of coverage by ABC News which is also good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhiWhyWyGiE

 

finally -- when I first learned about this,,,, it was from this video done by TechKnow by Al Jazeera America which was really a well done documentary style show with some humor. It was so good, I didn't search youtube for many more videos.... i just knew I needed to get started, so now I'm backtracking a little to fill in the research gaps from not fully researching in the beginning... but the more I learn the more I am assured this is a big deal. and each day using it assures me more and more....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnC6jX9PK0c


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#7 VastEmptiness

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 06:25 PM

Hey falconfocus,

you mentioned getting the device cheap in europe. could you link to the supplier? It's odd i've never been trying around with tCDS giving all the hacking ive been doing. actually i am waiting for the luciding device with includes a tCAS device. i know my brain acitvity quite well due to EEG readings and would like to target more specific. your montage is a very interesting attempt in that regard, since we can only passively train the lower regions with NFB (although some like opaque tried hitting the cerebellum with new montages and theres a setup targeting the amygdala through the eyeball).

happy to see the montage working for you. we've been heavily targeting the default network with neurofeedback over at the tagsync thread and getting astonishing results as well: http://www.longecity...and-discussion/

you might wanna look into tCAS and try around various frequencies (probably not in the 15-38hz range, but below or above) and see how your deeper brain regions repond
also did you look into LLLT for your issues? http://www.lostfalco...l-laser-therapy / https://selfhacked.c...review-of-lllt/

if you'd like some more recommendations let me know.

VE



#8 falconfocus

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:06 PM

Hi VE -- thanks for the comment. I haven't looked at TAG Sync but will definitely take the time to look into it... seems a little more complex in terms of understanding the general concept. I was just skimming the wikipedia article on Neural oscillation, which would be the overarching concept, correct?

 

https://en.wikipedia...ral_oscillation

 

The device I purchased was about $60 from Ebay. The first one I purchased had a short in it. I tried to fix it myself to no avail. I know you can build these yourself with parts from Radioshack and the like, but soldering seems to be my issue which needs some more training... anyway, the ebay vendor did send me a replacement. I sent the bad one back to him which was considerably expensive... I left it at that and pressed on.... 

 

here is a link to the one I got, but there are many others and even some different types offered by this same vendor:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...mA/302128212967

 

As for LLLT -- yes... I am recently on to that. Right now I have purchased four of the 96 LED lights recommended by Lostfalco and Joe Cohen at selfhacked.



#9 VastEmptiness

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:41 AM

general principles are outlined here: http://www.tagsync.com/ and here: http://www.tagsync.com/sbeh.htm

and yes, its a complex topic. application is somewhat simple though, since it only relies on a single neurofeedback protocol.

jeffrey martin points to the default mode network alot too in his research of persistent states of wellbeing:

(also:  )

I'd really like to try your montage.



#10 VastEmptiness

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 05:36 PM

Just trying your montage for the first time. Sensations are as described (metallic taste, flashes, tingling). How long do you run sessions?



#11 falconfocus

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:42 AM

i usually do at least 20 minutes and usually 30 minutes, sometimes more.



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#12 VastEmptiness

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 07:39 AM

i usually do at least 20 minutes and usually 30 minutes, sometimes more.

have you pursued this technique and if so, with what effects?







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: tdcs, transcranial direct-current stimulation, depression, add, adhd, anxiety, mediation, alzheimers, default mode network, dmn

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