29 replies to this topic

[vere]

Posting this for my best friend who has emotional anhedonia:

 

I'm 25, my depression began around age 21 when I was finishing up my last year of college. I started living in an apartment near my college where I was still able to see my friends and continue to progress my post college work to the point that I could be proud of it. As I came to realize how screwed over I was by my terrible college "education" and the apartment I lived in had a horrible nightmare inducing bug infestation for months straight, I became increasingly depressed. 

 

At this point, I still had a full range of emotions. It wasn't til I took typical pharmaceutical antidepressants that I became emotionally numb and started feeling like a different person, one that I don't want to be. Before this point I felt like my depression was manageable because at least I could still feel. I'm trying to find my way back to even that point of my life, where I could look at my cat or my best friend and feel something, and find comfort in that despite everything feeling bleak at the time.

 

My life circumstances are good, best they have ever been. I now live in a great apartment with my best friend and my cat who is perfect. In this situation it sticks out more how numb I am because I have everything I would have ever wanted. When circumstances have been bad in the past, I could blame my condition on something. Now it's really apparent that it's just my brain.

 

All throughout my depression I've never stopped doing the things I've loved. The problem is that I can do these things all I want, but I have no feeling about it. I used to be a very emotional person and I see that as a positive thing. I want emotion back - good and bad. I see being able to cry as a positive thing. Now I have to force tears out and they don't feel real, they're just water from my eyes.

 

I really don't have issues with energy, motivation, and my capacity to have frequent good moods and enjoy myself is even still there. Pretty much no anxiety with my depression either. The scales that they have had me fill out at psychiatrists' offices don't fit my depression - it's like I'm on a totally different scale. A lot of the time I don't even feel like I have depression anymore, it's more like solely emotional anhedonia.

 

Things I've tried:

 

SSRI/SNRI/NDRI antidepressants

Zoloft, Prozac, Effexor, and Wellbutrin. Zoloft, Prozac and Effexor all numbed me and Wellbutrin did absolutely nothing other than suspend my hope for months. Psychiatrists told me to stay on the medicines despite them not working and describing feeling worse in a different way (numbness), overriding my personal experience with their "expertise." Retrospectively I feel like they changed me as a person and have emotionally numbed me since taking them.

 

TMS

2 full rounds of 30 some treatments. It had absolutely zero effect and it ate up a large part of my life trying it twice. They just kept telling me it could be the 15th treatment that would work, 16th, 17th, etc... The first place I had it done, I was convinced they weren't doing it properly, but the second time confirmed it was just a totally ineffective treatment for me.

 

Ketamine

Got this done at KTC partnership clinics on the east coast. Holy crap, this was the only thing that has ever let me see myself again prior to my emotional anhedonia. The anti-anhedonic effects kicked in directly post infusion. I became very emotional like I haven't been in so long and could cry for real and see things in the way that I used to. I was able to talk to my best friend during this time, which made it worth it.

 

I'd slowly return to normal as I left the clinic and the rest of the evening I'd be pretty tired and just have a slightly pleasant feeling, but nothing revolutionary in terms of feeling emotion like directly post treatment. I could enjoy myself though. It was hard being out of state and in a hotel during this time period where I just wanted to be home.

 

After my first full round of ketamine treatments, I was coming in at least once a week for maintenance treatments because the effects didn't last past that, which is obviously insanely expensive and time consuming. They told me if I kept getting repeated maintenance treatments that I would be able to extend lasting effects of ketamine. This was a complete lie and never happened. Maybe they didn't even know it was a lie and were hopeful it would actually do that, but it didn't change the fact that it was a waste of time, effort, and money. And the feeling of losing that good feeling and not being able to hold onto it was crushing, though ultimately I am glad I had the experience.

 

I had maybe one good week outside of the ketamine treatment, but even that was likely due to favorable circumstances rather than the ketamine itself. Everything after that was a letdown. Some infusions, not tolerance but off and on, for whatever reason I didn't get the same emotional effect. That was always disappointing because I think the real antidepressant effect for me was the thoughts and emotional perspective I was able to have that gave me a glimpse of myself again. If you're stuck in a place where you can't remember what it's like to feel again, I would recommend ketamine for one infusion just to remind you of what that's like, but don't go chasing long-lasting effects of multiple infusions. I was in a pretty low place before getting a ketamine infusion after the two failed rounds of TMS and temporarily moving to a horrible state just to get the TMS treatment. Ketamine, while it didn't last, at least brought me out of that.

 

Dextromethorphan (Nuedexta) 

Was told at ketamine clinics that Nuedexta (DXM + quinidine) could extend the life of ketamine's effectiveness between treatments. I soon found out that it really didn't "extend the life" of ketamine as they said, but it had a mechanism of its own. I'm not sure if this is something they told me just to make me believe I still needed to come in for ketamine infusions and couldn't rely solely on dextromethorphan.

 

I started taking dextromethorphan in the form of Robitussin cough syrup just to test how it would make me feel because it took so long to get Nuedexta prescribed. Overall, cough syrup was more helpful in a cathartic, emotional way then Nuedexta ever was. Nuedexta calmed me but felt kind of dulling. I took up to 4 pills a day for a bit, at which point I felt pretty dull and drugged and despite some overall pleasant feelings, it wasn't worth it. My sweet spot was at about 2 pills. My experience with dextromethorphan overall was about a 2-3 month endeavor, but at some point I decided the drug felt way too dirty and wasn't even giving me the desired effects anymore without redosing cough syrup, which I didn't by any means want to do too frequently. 

 

Trintellix

Can't believe I got conned into taking another pharmaceutical antidepressant with SSRI like mechanisms by another awful psychiatrist. I took it for one week and I already started to get that all too familiar SSRI feeling of numbness and increased detachment that lasted for at least another week after stopping it. My terrible "psychiatrist" tried to make some argument that it was the leading antidepressant in the world without even considering my medication history, symptoms, anything. Like with every crappy pharmaceutical, they tell you that you will reap benefits long term after persisting to take it past the point of when it has numbed you, maybe so that you can't remember the importance of the emotions you were trying to get back in the first place. I'd like to know if that's how they became so cold and emotionless in their profession.

 

Completely disgusted and fed up with the psychiatrist BS I have experienced, I turned to researching things that could actually help me. While I still haven't gotten too much relief, the past few months have been the most productive and least harmful months in the past 3 years of trying to get treatment, and I see a brighter future in this direction.

 

NSI-189

Been taking since the end of December, with just a one week break at the end of January so far. On average I take about 20mg a day. I have tried higher doses than this but it gave me a pretty impairing headache I couldn't deal with day to day. Didn't test staying at higher doses and seeing if this would pass.

 

Overall the most benefit I've noticably experienced from NSI-189 was within the first few weeks of taking it initially. I wouldn't say it brought back my emotions, but to some extent it made things more interesting and made me see the point in trying to work again. Around 2 weeks or so I had some increased negative thoughts that made me a bit more paranoid but it passed pretty quickly after that. Other than that, no negative effects I am aware of, but my experience with it has been just mildly helpful overall. I keep taking it in hopes of long term improvement. Success I've had with it also hasn't gone away upon stopping taking it for a week.

 

Tianeptine Sulfate

Took 25mg capsules 2x a day. I found Tianeptine Sulfate to be very subtle, I really didn't notice much acutely when taking it. Over time I started to notice a couple very small windows of feeling, but it would slip away so quickly it was almost frustrating. The most noticeable effect of Tianeptine was that I didn't ruminate on negative thoughts as much as usual. I could walk away from a situation that normally would have made me extremely upset and angry and send me down a spiral of negative thought that I couldn't escape. I started taking it as an adjunct to NSI-189 to help ease the added anxiety from it - I think it worked but it could have just been that those effects of NSI were transient and passed. I stopped taking it because I thought it might be clamping my emotions a bit overall, making me a bit too mellow.

 

Agomelatine

Started taking this because of the 5-HT2C antagonism which is supposed to disinhibit dopamine and norepinephrine and I also have always had a bit of insomnia my whole life, so I figured why not. I have taken max doses of 25mg at night for a couple weeks. It has had positive effects on my sleep cycle while taking it - I fall asleep almost immediately after taking it and I wake up feeling refreshed. I recently stopped taking it because of waking up with some of my limbs falling asleep, and increased falling asleep limbs during the day even. I also started to suspect it was waking me up in the middle of the night. Haven't noticed the 5-HT2C antagonism positively affecting my norepinephrine/dopamine system, unless it is affecting it and that's just not my problem. Might consider taking it again in the future.

 

Sarcosine

Took up to 3g daily for a couple weeks. While I'm still not clear on what this could do for me, I saw a study that sarcosine could relieve negative symptoms of schizophrenia, anhedonia being one of them. Also read some articles that despite being an NMDA agonist, it could have similar antidepressant effects to ketamine. I was hoping that restored NMDAR function due to glycine could be helpful for my anhedonia.

 

I don't know if I had much of a result on this at all. Trying larger doses, I did feel some minor irritability. Nothing was bad during this time, but nothing much better either.

 

Memantine

Following the thought of NMDA antagonism helping me, from Ketamine and dextromethorphan, I decided to try memantine despite a lot of people saying that it's not as effective as an antidepressant. I found it mildly helpful. I think it changed my way of thinking for a bit, I started to enjoy music a bit more again, things became a bit more interesting. It made me more focused and motivated with my work as well. No emotional revelations unfortunately. I've started to back down on it again to the point of stopping taking it, just because I don't feel like it's something I need or that will progress any more than it has. I took up to 15mg or so daily, but started out slow, though not as slow as I've seen people warn and I never really got any debilitating brain fog or anything, despite the long half life.

 

Rhodiola Rosea (3% salidrosides)

Have tried a 3:1 ratio Rhodiola and recently a 3% salidrosides rhodiola, which seemed to be the most helpful for my mood and way of thinking for about a week, up to about 500mg daily. Then I started to have this weird feeling like I had too much energy but didn't want to do anything with it. I stopped taking it for now but I wish I could reap those initial benefits again. Will try dosing it less frequently, like 2x a week or something. I don't feel that it will take me anywhere crazy in terms of recovery but I would like to keep it around as an adjunct supplement if it helps to change the way I think and elevates my mood.

 

Agmatine

Been trying to figure out why ketamine was so effective for me, and saw some studies that AMPA and mTOR pathway activation was more responsible for ketamine's antidepressant effects than NMDA antagonism alone. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27061850

This study made me want to give it a shot. I'm currently taking this alongside memantine and rhodiola. I can't tell if there is anything happening yet. I felt like I hit less of a brick wall when trying to cry, but I've also been having pretty bad dreams while on it the past couple of days.

 

 

The following are a couple other supplements I've tried with little effects in short term to test my reaction. Didn't expect anything profound to happen when taking these for such a short time, but I just wanted to get a sense of if anything happened acutely from any of them.

 

L-Tyrosine

Took for about a week, no effects, tried doses up to 2g a day. If anything it probably gave me a headache.

 

NAC

Not much effect if any. Took this one for a couple of weeks, up to 2g a day, mostly alongside Tianeptine Sulfate. If anything, it felt a bit like Tianeptine and I stopped taking it for the same reason.

 

NA Selank Amidate nasal spray

Took this for a couple of days to a week. Tried doses up to I think about 400mcg daily. Didn't feel anything, despite trying larger doses at once. 

 

Schisandra

Took it for about a week at 1g or so daily, in hopes of it being an empathogen and increasing estrogen levels, which I thought might help me feel more. No noticeable effects.

 

Cordyceps

No effects at 1g daily for a couple days.

 

Polygala Tenuifolia

I took this for just one day, since it supposedly has rapid acting effects. I just didn't like it. It could have been circumstance, but I got pretty frustrated at my work that night. It either did nothing or contributed to that, and I just didn't feel good about taking it again.

 

Magnesium

I've tried at varying points in my life, but found it mostly helpful for restless legs at night. Nothing mentally.

 

Other things I have looked into for my depression/emotional anhedonia: 

 

Bloodwork/gene testing

Blood work wise, I haven't really found anything wrong, except Vitamin D being low. Been on prescription grade Vitamin D supplements for as long as my depression and restored my levels to normal at various times with no apparent benefit.

 

I have the MTHFR gene mutation, I believe one copy. I don't really know how much this affects me. I haven't experimented with anything that affects methylation because my understanding is limited. I also took Deplin for a while, didn't notice any improvements with the addition of this.

 

Hormones

Been recently getting my hormones checked out at a urologist, and in the process of being referred to an endocrinologist. I am on the low end of testosterone levels, but still within the normal range just barely. I'm male and have been this way for as long as I can remember, though I've never had them formally checked prior to my depression. 

 

After getting my hormone levels checked out, my estradiol was at the very bottom of the range and my prolactin at the very top of the range. I feel that these have more to do with my current state. If anything, I figure I'd want to raise my estrogen levels a bit just to see if it helps my emotions because of estrogen's more emotional reputation.

 

I realize the way to do this in men is often as a byproduct of raising testosterone since it's made from testosterone, but I don't want to do this because of the undesirable effects of raising testosterone for me, personally. Never had excess body hair, I don't want some crazy sex drive or "quality" erections (whatever that means), or a newfound interest in watching sweaty men tackle each other on a field to fight over a ball. 

 

In every context of testosterone, it seems like it's a "mood/drive enhancer" but not an "emotion enhancer." I'm not lacking in mood or drive - I still have all the energy and motivation I need to do everything I used to, just with no feeling to back it.

Additionally, it's hard for me not to pair testosterone with the idea that nearly every man I have ever met is not emotional. I've always been emotional prior to this and related more to my female friends, and that's something I want back, not to forget about.

 

I've also come across one study that said estradiol increased the density of 5-HT2A receptors in the brain. (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12842309) This is something that I feel like has been impaired in me for whatever reason, most likely SSRI/SNRI use, knowing it is a receptor implicated in emotion/emotional deficit - so this was interesting.

 

If anyone has had any experience with hormone levels and their effect on emotions, I'd love to know more. 

 

Areas I'm currently interested in:

 

I've been trying to figure out why ketamine (and to a lesser extent DXM) helped me but not other NMDA antagonists. Likely it's because it was not solely due to their NMDA antagonism since ketamine and DXM have pretty broad effects. I've read a study about AMPA receptors and mTOR pathways being the reason for antidepressant effects in ketamine. (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24321772) I'm trying agmatine in addition to memantine now for this reason, but I don't really know how strong or helpful it would be on this front. Anyone found any truth to activating AMPA receptors being helpful for emotional depth via other supplements/medications? Also, I'm interested in knowing more about anything glutamatergic in nature that might be helpful since things acting on this pathway in some shape or form seems to have been the only thing that I've responded to.

 

5-HT2A receptors - after reading about 5-HT2A's role in emotion and how it may be downregulated by SSRI/SNRI use, I'm really interested in ways to restore the function of this receptor. I've heard of St. John's Wort, Bacopa, and Panax Ginseng for being helpful for this, but I've yet to try any of these. I'm hesitant to try them because I am skeptical of how anything serotonergic will affect me. But I have the sense that it's not necessarily serotonin that's inherently a problem, just what SSRIs/SNRIs did to my serotonin system. If anyone more informed in this area has any input, I'm really curious to know. I'm not looking for a quick fix here that might wind me up in a worse place (i.e. MDMA, psychedelics) but rather helping the overall restoration of a normal range of emotions, which I assume will happen gradually. I understand 5-HT2A is downregulated by both agonism and antagonism - so has anyone found success in supplements upregulating 5-HT2A and restoring emotional capacity?

 

So now, to summarize, I'm looking for suggestions of things to try next to bring back my emotions. I've searched and read tons of threads and anecdotes, but I feel like I'm running out of ideas of solid treatments to pursue and my knowledge on all this is still just a best guess paired with intuition. I hope at the least my experiences so far recorded here can be of some value to anyone who feels like they're struggling with something similar.

 

[Lia-chan]

After reading your post, I think that you have high prolactin if you don't trust me, you can try MRI and I think that you would have adenoma, I also have high prolactin AND pituitary gland adenoma, so to be sure, that everything is a-ok, I recommend to try bromocriptine and see what happens, I hope that it would bring your emotions backs thanks to decrease in prolactin levels

[vere]

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the suggestion. My prolactin levels are at the higher end of standard acceptable range for men but not outside of it. Forgot to mention also I got an MRI of the brain and everything appeared totally normal. But your comment made me realize that prolactin levels could at least be a factor in my own emotion loss, despite them not being extremely high. I have the sense that hormone imbalance across the board might be key in my lack of emotions.

[ThreeKings12341]

hi there , i found your story very interesting. and i feel exactly the same like u!,  i think..

 

heres my thread:

 

http://www.longecity...rgently-needed/

 

hows smoking nicotine for you? binge drinking and the day after drinking (hang over day) - i feel mostly emotional happy and sad which is great .(but i stopped now for longer than 10 months  - alc and nicotine)

 

really interesting that ketamine worked your u, ill put that one higher in my list..

 

have u tried Low dose naltrexone? thats my next step, i dont want to take antypsychiotca yet (abilify or godeon...)

 

 

.; i know how u feel, and i have this flat affect state now for 9 years or something (im 25), i so hope for us that we get out of this state. :-/, lets stay in touch!

[world33]

If part of your issue is high prolactin, not caused by pituary gland adenoma considering you had a clear MRI, I would try Cabergoline rather than bromocriptine. Cabergoline has longer half life (you take it once or twice a week depending on the dosage) and less side effects. I would not jump to the conclusion that prolactin is the root cause.

Have you has a genetic test with 23andme.com and plugged the raw data into selfdecode.com to see if there is any genetic mutation involved?

 

[Lia-chan]

If part of your issue is high prolactin, not caused by pituary gland adenoma considering you had a clear MRI, I would try Cabergoline rather than bromocriptine. Cabergoline has longer half life (you take it once or twice a week depending on the dosage) and less side effects. I would not jump to the conclusion that prolactin is the root cause.

Have you has a genetic test with 23andme.com and plugged the raw data into selfdecode.com to see if there is any genetic mutation involved?

I had several MRIs and TWO of 'em showed, that there is microadenoma, and thanks to Venlafaxine it goes up, I'm gonna try bromocrptine, thankks for recommendation, I hope it's gonna work.

[world33]

If part of your issue is high prolactin, not caused by pituary gland adenoma considering you had a clear MRI, I would try Cabergoline rather than bromocriptine. Cabergoline has longer half life (you take it once or twice a week depending on the dosage) and less side effects. I would not jump to the conclusion that prolactin is the root cause.
Have you has a genetic test with 23andme.com and plugged the raw data into selfdecode.com to see if there is any genetic mutation involved?

I had several MRIs and TWO of 'em showed, that there is microadenoma, and thanks to Venlafaxine it goes up, I'm gonna try bromocrptine, thankks for recommendation, I hope it's gonna work.

 

Here some feedback from people who have used both bromocriptine and cabergoline
http://www.mdjunctio...sus-cabergoline
And check also this source: https://pituitary.mg...edu/e-s-962.htm
Good luck

Edited by world33, 05 March 2017 - 01:47 PM.

[vere]

ThreeKings12341 -

 

I saw your thread before and read through it all because I definitely relate to the emotional blunting you experience as well. I'm sorry that has been going on so long for you! If we're anything alike I hope we can help each other figure this out.

 

I have never smoked nicotine (can't stand smoking personally) and as far as drinking I'll only have a little wine once and a while. It makes sense those could intensify emotions, though I understand why you gave them up as well.

 

If you have the means to, I would definitely recommend at least trying ketamine for some relief. It helped me a lot to believe I could get back to my old self again in a time when I needed it most. I don't feel like it's a good long term solution, given potential side effects and also especially if you are going the route of paying for infusions at a clinic and driving far to get them - it becomes unmanageable.

 

I would definitely recommend trying memantine as an alternative NMDA antagonist to ketamine. Although it's not nearly as awesome as the revelations you have on ketamine, it's helpful to take. I would recommend dextromethorphan because it provided some great immediate relief at first, but it also has an SSRI/SNRI-like component to it that felt like it worsened me over time (though this was mostly with taking Nuedexta, which stays in the system longer), so I would be wary of that if things like that seem to adversely affect you like they do me. It can also be a pain to take because it doesn't stay in your system long and gives you some ups and downs that can feel pretty bad.

 

Low dose naltrexone is interesting, I keep seeing it while searching around and it's something that I'll have to give some more thought to trying. I'll keep you posted how it goes if I end up trying it.

 

If you're considering it though I would definitely give LDN a shot before trying antipsychotics (if at all.) I had one of my psychiatrists try to push Abilify on me but I am glad I didn't end up taking it - after reading a bit about it recently I felt like it would have left me in a worse state because it seems like a lot of antipsychotics also tend to deaden emotion - with some exceptions like amisulpride (from what I've read.) 

 

 

Thanks for the info on cabergoline and bromocriptine, world33. I'm still awaiting an appointment with an endocrinologist to see if it will help me resolve my issue with hormone balance before I try anything on my own. I'm looking forward to testing all my hormone levels soon to see if they've changed with time or anything I've added in as well. I hope the bromocriptine helps you, Lia-chan! 

 

I think I will go ahead and get my 23andme done. Anything that helps me pinpoint something about myself that could help is definitely worth doing.

 

The past week or so, I've tried a couple things. I decided to give St. John's Wort a shot and I gave it a fair chance but it was a huge mistake and I ended up throwing out the whole bottle. I took it only for a couple of days and it brought on all of my worst symptoms that I am all too familiar with from past medications. It's a really broad generalization to make, but it holds true: every medicine that elevates my serotonin levels in a significant way gives me the same symptoms - anger, aggression, negative thoughts, (aside from negative feelings) complete emotional numbing, detachment.

 

I already knew this from past experience, but this really confirmed to me that there is definite truth to the existence of a high serotonin depression/anhedonia. Or at the very least, an anhedonia rooted in serotonin system dysfunction after SSRI/SNRI use. 

 

I was desperate to come down from this because it's such an inescapable feeling (symptoms were still lasting about 2 days after) and I started to look for some supplements that might bring down serotonin levels. 

 

I found Vitex and Shilajit and tried adding them in, and I felt a whole lot better. Vitex supposedly decreases serotonin, promotes progesterone, and decreases high prolactin, if there is truth to what I have read on it. I know it is typically a supplement for women, but I haven't experienced any adverse effects taking it so far. Shilajit is supposed to decrease serotonin and increase dopamine. Currently these are the only two things I am taking and I'm going to keep going with them to see how I feel.

 

I know high/low serotonin levels is an extremely vague thing in the brain which is very complex. I'm not sure of specifics, but anecdotally, I can tell you it worked wonders to take something that "decreased" serotonin levels when I was feeling the worst I had in a long time after taking SJW. I feel much better than normal after taking some supplements that decrease serotonin. My emotions haven't completely returned or anything, but I feel like I am able to experience things as they're happening rather than feel like I am just looking at a picture of something. I also feel like I don't bluntly hit a wall in my brain when I am starting to feel something.

Edited by vere, 06 March 2017 - 02:36 AM.

[Hip]

vere, just a note on terminology: anhedonia and emotional flatness (aka: blunted affect) are different things, although they often appear together.

 

Anhedonia is defined as a lack of sense of pleasure or reward from life's normal activities. The reward circuits of the brain are inactive in anhedonia, so the experience of pleasure and reward on completing tasks is absent.

 

Emotional flatness (blunted affect) is slightly different to anhedonia. In emotional flatness, the normal emotional responses (love, sadness, compassion, surprise, guilt, shame, anger, joy, etc) are weak or absent. So for example, if you watch an emotional drama on TV, you tend to experience the drama in a cold, often cynical way, as you don't really engage with the emotions in the story.

 

You don't appear to have anhedonia, because you still enjoy doing things. People with anhedonia find no pleasure, enjoyment or reward from activities.

 

 

Anyway, I have some suggestions for you that might help your emotional flatness, based on the supplements that I found work for my emotional flatness: see the list of emotion boosting supplements in this post (and also this post).

 

Out of these supplements, the only one that worked on a consistent, long term basis is allicin 1,000 mg daily (6 x 180 mg allicin capsules taken once daily). 

 

I think allicin works via its action on the hypothalamus, a part of the brain that plays an important role in emotional processing. 

 

The other supplements also work, but I found they stop working if you take them every day (but maybe you will have better luck with them). So I found you can only take them now and then, when they will trigger sometimes a strong return of the emotions, but only for 3 or 4 hours.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 06 March 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[vere]

Hip -

 

Thanks for explaining the differences between those two terms. Psychiatrists have told me my condition matches anhedonia in the past but I agree with you that I identify my biggest problem as emotional flatness. Although I have experienced anhedonia as well, it feels like some things have relieved this while my emotional flatness remains persistent. For example, NSI-189 seemed to help my anhedonia but not my lack of emotion. I think this has led to a lot of misunderstandings in the past, even in me understanding myself and what is being helped/hurt by any given treatment.

 

I think my biggest confusion between these two terms and describing myself accurately was because it's often my lack of emotion that poses a problem in me seeing the point in doing things (like my work) - because if I am not able to be emotionally invested in something, it can seem pointless. When anhedonia is lifted, I can feel the drive to do something and the pleasure from the rewards of achieving small steps in my work, but I am still sort of robotic in my approach and my emotional flatness towards the big picture renders it all worthless.

 

Thanks so much for your list of supplements, it's rare that I've found people talking about supplements that help to increase their emotional range. I think I will try out allicin soon and report back here after a while if it has helped me. I'll be going through your list of supplements and checking out which ones seem to resonate with me. For a lot of the supplements I have been trying, I've also found that I've also done best taking them more infrequently because repeat use seems to dull their effects or start to cause different effects than intended. 

Edited by vere, 06 March 2017 - 07:52 PM.

[Hip]

I think my biggest confusion between these two terms and describing myself accurately was because it's often my lack of emotion that poses a problem in me seeing the point in doing things (like my work) - because if I am not able to be emotionally invested in something, it can seem pointless. 

 

I took me some time as well to understand the difference between anhedonia and emotional flatness, but eventually I started to be able to recognize each of these two symptoms in myself. 

 

If you want to start splitting hairs, anhedonia can be further divided into two forms: anticipatory anhedonia and consummatory anhedonia. Consummatory anhedonia is where you don’t feel much reward or satisfaction on completing a normally enjoyable activity; and anticipatory anhedonia is where you don’t get any good feelings when you look forward to doing an activity that is normally enjoyable.

 

In my case, I have both anticipatory anhedonia and consummatory anhedonia, but the latter bothers me more than the former.

 

My anhedonia and emotional flatness were the result of a viral infection that affected the brain.

 

I have been getting some reasonable results in improving anhedonia a bit from drinking hydrogen rich water (which in turn stimulates the release of the hormone ghrelin, which has antidepressant effects).  You can make hydrogen rich water using a Dr Hayashi hydrogen rich water stick, or by the homemade method detailed in this post. 

 

 

 

 I've also found that I've also done best taking them more infrequently because repeat use seems to dull their effects or start to cause different effects than intended. 

 

Interesting that you experienced this same phenomenon of the rapid loss of effect of many emotion-boosting supplements. 

Edited by Hip, 06 March 2017 - 10:22 PM.

[Flyingball]

I'm in a similar boat as you. Have you heard of PSSD? You should check out the PSSD Colaborative Research forum for more information. My bet is also on desensitized serotonin receptors. And another thing to try is Inositol, it has helped a couple of people in anecdotic cases.

[Hip]

PSSD Colaborative Research forum

 

Looks like that forum is here: http://www.pssdforum.com

Edited by Hip, 07 March 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[ThreeKings12341]

 

ThreeKings12341 -

 

I saw your thread before and read through it all because I definitely relate to the emotional blunting you experience as well. I'm sorry that has been going on so long for you! If we're anything alike I hope we can help each other figure this out.

 

I have never smoked nicotine (can't stand smoking personally) and as far as drinking I'll only have a little wine once and a while. It makes sense those could intensify emotions, though I understand why you gave them up as well.

 

If you have the means to, I would definitely recommend at least trying ketamine for some relief. It helped me a lot to believe I could get back to my old self again in a time when I needed it most. I don't feel like it's a good long term solution, given potential side effects and also especially if you are going the route of paying for infusions at a clinic and driving far to get them - it becomes unmanageable.

 

I would definitely recommend trying memantine as an alternative NMDA antagonist to ketamine. Although it's not nearly as awesome as the revelations you have on ketamine, it's helpful to take. I would recommend dextromethorphan because it provided some great immediate relief at first, but it also has an SSRI/SNRI-like component to it that felt like it worsened me over time (though this was mostly with taking Nuedexta, which stays in the system longer), so I would be wary of that if things like that seem to adversely affect you like they do me. It can also be a pain to take because it doesn't stay in your system long and gives you some ups and downs that can feel pretty bad.

 

Low dose naltrexone is interesting, I keep seeing it while searching around and it's something that I'll have to give some more thought to trying. I'll keep you posted how it goes if I end up trying it.

 

If you're considering it though I would definitely give LDN a shot before trying antipsychotics (if at all.) I had one of my psychiatrists try to push Abilify on me but I am glad I didn't end up taking it - after reading a bit about it recently I felt like it would have left me in a worse state because it seems like a lot of antipsychotics also tend to deaden emotion - with some exceptions like amisulpride (from what I've read.) 

 

 

Thanks for the info on cabergoline and bromocriptine, world33. I'm still awaiting an appointment with an endocrinologist to see if it will help me resolve my issue with hormone balance before I try anything on my own. I'm looking forward to testing all my hormone levels soon to see if they've changed with time or anything I've added in as well. I hope the bromocriptine helps you, Lia-chan! 

 

I think I will go ahead and get my 23andme done. Anything that helps me pinpoint something about myself that could help is definitely worth doing.

 

The past week or so, I've tried a couple things. I decided to give St. John's Wort a shot and I gave it a fair chance but it was a huge mistake and I ended up throwing out the whole bottle. I took it only for a couple of days and it brought on all of my worst symptoms that I am all too familiar with from past medications. It's a really broad generalization to make, but it holds true: every medicine that elevates my serotonin levels in a significant way gives me the same symptoms - anger, aggression, negative thoughts, (aside from negative feelings) complete emotional numbing, detachment.

 

I already knew this from past experience, but this really confirmed to me that there is definite truth to the existence of a high serotonin depression/anhedonia. Or at the very least, an anhedonia rooted in serotonin system dysfunction after SSRI/SNRI use. 

 

I was desperate to come down from this because it's such an inescapable feeling (symptoms were still lasting about 2 days after) and I started to look for some supplements that might bring down serotonin levels. 

 

I found Vitex and Shilajit and tried adding them in, and I felt a whole lot better. Vitex supposedly decreases serotonin, promotes progesterone, and decreases high prolactin, if there is truth to what I have read on it. I know it is typically a supplement for women, but I haven't experienced any adverse effects taking it so far. Shilajit is supposed to decrease serotonin and increase dopamine. Currently these are the only two things I am taking and I'm going to keep going with them to see how I feel.

 

I know high/low serotonin levels is an extremely vague thing in the brain which is very complex. I'm not sure of specifics, but anecdotally, I can tell you it worked wonders to take something that "decreased" serotonin levels when I was feeling the worst I had in a long time after taking SJW. I feel much better than normal after taking some supplements that decrease serotonin. My emotions haven't completely returned or anything, but I feel like I am able to experience things as they're happening rather than feel like I am just looking at a picture of something. I also feel like I don't bluntly hit a wall in my brain when I am starting to feel something.

 

 

yes we should definitely help each others out !. motivates me throughout the day 2 know i know some other people who take this really serious and have the same issues. (and i dont know many yet - since i procrastinate so much searching in forums like these for answers because that always ends in late nights and i sink really into researches which isreally great, but i must study for a big qualifing examintion).

 

ketamine really sounds great, my prev doc said never he will give that to me... hmm does it have to be liquid ketamine? do i just say i want ketamine ? or ketamine.."abc", where do u think i would get this easier`? and what should i say to a doc  get it easier  ?

And the memantine(also on my list - but not sure about this)- did u get that one online or prescribed?

 

ive read also bad stuff about abilify ...:/ hmm ill wait on that one.. this allicin thing mentioned by HIP sounds really interesting.. will try that out 2day..

 

ill also do a 23andme test but havent found the time for that..

 

i dont know if u wrote it already vere: but do u also like feel inner posity empty but not emotional nearly constantly the whole day ? i call my state in english (because im half english and its not always that good ) emotionaly flat but positvly vibed or something like that.^^ - also does music affect u ? it boosts my motvation extremely most of the time when im kind of lethargic or not in the mood to study or something...

 

HIP: also thanks a lot for your information!, ive read all that years back but didnt really pay attention to all of that information since i forgot about it. but Allicin sounds great and i will try that one out today!, and sorry about this flu kinda thing :/ u do seem better dont u?, u think my eppsteinbar virus could have been the cause for flat affect? or just crying the whole time because of the bodydympophobic in combo with obsessive thinking disorder and shut myself down could lead to such state like now?- i mean it doesnt matter now but im still interested what u think   - it could be anything actually the combo of crying, weed, pfeiffisches drüsenfieber sometimes alc, and antidepressiva..... i  dont know. the whole mix gave it to me probably...

 

 

ps: i also hve the experience that if i take any kind of serotinmed. it bluntes me even more .. except tianeptine.. which actually makes me feel the same, but i have much more concentraton on tianeptine (stablon) and i think whihout the tianeptine i have brainfogs kinda states...   5htp, ssris all kinda makes my state worse...

 

also hip, which inositol would u recommend? uve listed that one on your site.. does it have to be a certain active component ( like Myo-Inositol  for instance)?

Edited by ThreeKings12341, 07 March 2017 - 09:08 AM.

[vere]

If you want to start splitting hairs, anhedonia can be further divided into two forms: anticipatory anhedonia and consummatory anhedonia. Consummatory anhedonia is where you don’t feel much reward or satisfaction on completing a normally enjoyable activity; and anticipatory anhedonia is where you don’t get any good feelings when you look forward to doing an activity that is normally enjoyable.

 

 

Right, these two distinctions make a lot of sense to me. While I have experienced both, a lot of the time it is the anticipatory anhedonia that lifts, but not the consummatory - as in I'll look forward to doing something and I'll pursue activities I normally would enjoy, I but much more rarely get the resulting pleasure from doing that activity. (For example, I will want to go for a walk, watch a movie, etc., but am always left unfulfilled from doing it.) 

 

I'm in a similar boat as you. Have you heard of PSSD? You should check out the PSSD Colaborative Research forum for more information. My bet is also on desensitized serotonin receptors. And another thing to try is Inositol, it has helped a couple of people in anecdotic cases.

 

Yeah, I have heard of PSSD - and while it's not something I'm particularly focused on, I feel like desensitized serotonin receptors are a shared origin for these problems (emotional flatness, sexual dysfunction.) So I feel like checking out those forums might yield something that would help me as well, thanks for the recommendation.

 

 

I need help understanding what might be wrong with my serotonin system, if anyone has a better grasp on this and can help explain. I know for a fact that my emotional flatness was caused and worsened by treatments that were SSRIs and SSRI-like. as it seems to happen with a lot of people, with both PSSD and emotional blunting. With my limited medical knowledge from my research and going off my personal experience, I am assuming that the flood of extracellular serotonin from reuptake inhibition led to serotonin receptors being desensitized over time. I am guessing with autoreceptors being desensitized, that serotonin isn't properly cleared from the synapse anymore - which would lead to persistently elevated serotonin levels and emotional blunting? 

 

I feel that I need to restore my serotonin system in some way. But, it seems like a lot of treatments that are said to be good for upregulating serotonin receptors are also serotonergic? For example, I am really interested in Inositol and Bacopa for supposedly being beneficial in this way, but I keep hearing they tend to be serotonergic/lead to a net increase in serotonin as well, which kind of scares me off because of the horrible reaction I have every time I try something that begins to raise serotonin.

 

 

yes we should definitely help each others out !. motivates me throughout the day 2 know i know some other people who take this really serious and have the same issues. (and i dont know many yet - since i procrastinate so much searching in forums like these for answers because that always ends in late nights and i sink really into researches which isreally great, but i must study for a big qualifing examintion).

 

 

ketamine really sounds great, my prev doc said never he will give that to me... hmm does it have to be liquid ketamine? do i just say i want ketamine ? or ketamine.."abc", where do u think i would get this easier`? and what should i say to a doc  get it easier  ?

And the memantine(also on my list - but not sure about this)- did u get that one online or prescribed?

 

ive read also bad stuff about abilify ...:/ hmm ill wait on that one.. this allicin thing mentioned by HIP sounds really interesting.. will try that out 2day..

 

ill also do a 23andme test but havent found the time for that..

 

i dont know if u wrote it already vere: but do u also like feel inner posity empty but not emotional nearly constantly the whole day ? i call my state in english (because im half english and its not always that good ) emotionaly flat but positvly vibed or something like that.^^ - also does music affect u ? it boosts my motvation extremely most of the time when im kind of lethargic or not in the mood to study or something...

 

HIP: also thanks a lot for your information!, ive read all that years back but didnt really pay attention to all of that information since i forgot about it. but Allicin sounds great and i will try that one out today!, and sorry about this flu kinda thing :/ u do seem better dont u?, u think my eppsteinbar virus could have been the cause for flat affect? or just crying the whole time because of the bodydympophobic in combo with obsessive thinking disorder and shut myself down could lead to such state like now?- i mean it doesnt matter now but im still interested what u think   - it could be anything actually the combo of crying, weed, pfeiffisches drüsenfieber sometimes alc, and antidepressiva..... i  dont know. the whole mix gave it to me probably...

 

 

ps: i also hve the experience that if i take any kind of serotinmed. it bluntes me even more .. except tianeptine.. which actually makes me feel the same, but i have much more concentraton on tianeptine (stablon) and i think whihout the tianeptine i have brainfogs kinda states...   5htp, ssris all kinda makes my state worse...

 

also hip, which inositol would u recommend? uve listed that one on your site.. does it have to be a certain active component ( like Myo-Inositol  for instance)?

 

 

I understand how you feel. My best friend does a lot of this research for me and helps me out a lot, but it is such a time consuming thing to be doing this on your own and you can get really lost in the sea of information. It is too bad that psychiatrists aren't reliable sources for any of this knowledge as they should be.

 

I got ketamine infusions done by IV at KTC Partnership clinics (which is the most effective route of administration, though I believe a nasal spray form of ketamine is also being developed, called esketamine). They have several different clinics in different locations. I traveled quite a lot along the east coast to get a bunch of infusions. It's quite the commitment to do it this way, unless you are conveniently located near one, which I hope you are!

 

I recommend them over other places if you are going to get infusions because the facilities are nice, not in a hospital-like setting, and they give you space to be on your own during the infusion, listen to music, whatever. I had gone somewhere else for an infusion but had a really bad experience. The doctor just sat there and stared at me the whole time and there was this beeping noise going off repeatedly in the room, it was in a very medical looking office that felt very sterile. I think whatever mood you start out in going into the ketamine infusion can be sort of amplified, so if it starts out bad it takes you in a negative direction during the infusion. I felt like I was going to die there during that infusion.

 

Again, I recommend ketamine (and KTC Partnerships) cautiously though, because it feels like this gimmick that they don't know how to follow up on (they are just medical consultants). They offer rapid antidepressant relief, which is true -- but they made me feel like I was some odd case where the effects didn't last for me, and that I was someone that would have to keep coming in for more consecutive infusions in order to get lasting results. Retrospectively, it seems like pretty much everyone who gets an infusion, the effects don't last for more than a week or so - it is not some miracle cure. So if you do them, just go into them for the experience of getting a short period of relief, and knowing that is what you are going to get out of it. Now I am just trying to figure the reasons why ketamine worked so I can think about how I can find other medications that might work for the long term on similar mechanisms.

 

If going to an infusion clinic isn't an option, they told me at the clinic that some doctors are open to administering ketamine by IV, since it is done for anesthetic purposes. But my primary doctor wouldn't offer this to me personally, and I don't expect that many will unfortunately... sorry I can't offer more advice there. 

 

Memantine is sold in a liquid form at Ceretropic, that's where I've bought mine from. My terrible former psychiatrist arrogantly told me it wouldn't do anything for me and he wouldn't prescribe it off-label (it is pharmaceutically known as Namenda to treat Alzheimer's)... but it has been one of the more helpful things I've taken so far since researching medications on my own. I have heard that you need to go up in dose on it very slowly. I didn't have this experience personally but I would still be wary of it if you start to take it, since people say they get pretty bad brain fog from it from going up in dose too quickly. It also stays in your system for quite a long time.

 

Our problems with serotonin must be pretty similar since we feel the same about serotonin increasing medications. I also feel the same about tianeptine. It doesn't blunt me, I feel about the same emotionally. It supposedly is an SSRE but I've seen time and time again that it might not be a very strong SSRE, otherwise it would seem like it would help our problem more. I only stopped taking it because I felt like the idea of normalizing glutamate levels wasn't helping me feel more emotion, though overall I didn't dislike it.

Edited by vere, 07 March 2017 - 11:14 PM.

[jaiho]

I had the exact experience you had with Ketamine.

No doubt this is a very deep depression you're in.

 

I suggest following this guide:

http://psychotropica...al-ad-algorithm

 

SSRI/SNRIs are rather useless, however when certain receptors are blocked (Such as 5HT2A & 5HT2C) and throwing in dopamine reuptake inhibition, you could get some great Anhedonia relief.

Then there is MAOIs if that fails.

[jaybird10 2]

Crazy how I believe I could have written that top thread myself. Okay so Im on trt (testosterone replacement therapy) and have a top of the range prolactin level. I had an mri and have a microadenoma. My doctor doesnt think I need to treat it unless I have symptoms of sexual dysfunction which I do but...............Im also on pristiq and remeron which are probably contributing to the dysfunction as well. My trt doc and my psychiatrist both don t think that lowering my prolactin will have any benefits on my mood. I may try cabergoline in a couple months to see if lowering my prolactin has any positive effects on my mood. As of now Im two weeks into finishing a 4 month benzo withdrawal so I want to finish that first. I also have ordered naltrexone and just recieved shipment in the mail yesterday so I will by trialing LDN soon as well. I was bottom of the range for testosterone when I started trt. I was 33 and my morning level was 10 or 300 depending which scale you use. I was hoping that trt was the holy grail of my mood issues but sadly it wasnt. It was beneficial enough to stay on and give me enough motivation to keep going. The biggest positive about trt for me was clearing the brain fog.

[ThreeKings12341]

 

yes we should definitely help each others out !. motivates me throughout the day 2 know i know some other people who take this really serious and have the same issues. (and i dont know many yet - since i procrastinate so much searching in forums like these for answers because that always ends in late nights and i sink really into researches which isreally great, but i must study for a big qualifing examintion).

 

 

ketamine really sounds great, my prev doc said never he will give that to me... hmm does it have to be liquid ketamine? do i just say i want ketamine ? or ketamine.."abc", where do u think i would get this easier`? and what should i say to a doc  get it easier  ?

And the memantine(also on my list - but not sure about this)- did u get that one online or prescribed?

 

ive read also bad stuff about abilify ...:/ hmm ill wait on that one.. this allicin thing mentioned by HIP sounds really interesting.. will try that out 2day..

 

ill also do a 23andme test but havent found the time for that..

 

i dont know if u wrote it already vere: but do u also like feel inner posity empty but not emotional nearly constantly the whole day ? i call my state in english (because im half english and its not always that good ) emotionaly flat but positvly vibed or something like that.^^ - also does music affect u ? it boosts my motvation extremely most of the time when im kind of lethargic or not in the mood to study or something...

 

HIP: also thanks a lot for your information!, ive read all that years back but didnt really pay attention to all of that information since i forgot about it. but Allicin sounds great and i will try that one out today!, and sorry about this flu kinda thing :/ u do seem better dont u?, u think my eppsteinbar virus could have been the cause for flat affect? or just crying the whole time because of the bodydympophobic in combo with obsessive thinking disorder and shut myself down could lead to such state like now?- i mean it doesnt matter now but im still interested what u think   - it could be anything actually the combo of crying, weed, pfeiffisches drüsenfieber sometimes alc, and antidepressiva..... i  dont know. the whole mix gave it to me probably...

 

 

ps: i also hve the experience that if i take any kind of serotinmed. it bluntes me even more .. except tianeptine.. which actually makes me feel the same, but i have much more concentraton on tianeptine (stablon) and i think whihout the tianeptine i have brainfogs kinda states...   5htp, ssris all kinda makes my state worse...

 

also hip, which inositol would u recommend? uve listed that one on your site.. does it have to be a certain active component ( like Myo-Inositol  for instance)?

 

 

I understand how you feel. My best friend does a lot of this research for me and helps me out a lot, but it is such a time consuming thing to be doing this on your own and you can get really lost in the sea of information. It is too bad that psychiatrists aren't reliable sources for any of this knowledge as they should be.

 

I got ketamine infusions done by IV at KTC Partnership clinics (which is the most effective route of administration, though I believe a nasal spray form of ketamine is also being developed, called esketamine). They have several different clinics in different locations. I traveled quite a lot along the east coast to get a bunch of infusions. It's quite the commitment to do it this way, unless you are conveniently located near one, which I hope you are!

 

I recommend them over other places if you are going to get infusions because the facilities are nice, not in a hospital-like setting, and they give you space to be on your own during the infusion, listen to music, whatever. I had gone somewhere else for an infusion but had a really bad experience. The doctor just sat there and stared at me the whole time and there was this beeping noise going off repeatedly in the room, it was in a very medical looking office that felt very sterile. I think whatever mood you start out in going into the ketamine infusion can be sort of amplified, so if it starts out bad it takes you in a negative direction during the infusion. I felt like I was going to die there during that infusion.

 

Again, I recommend ketamine (and KTC Partnerships) cautiously though, because it feels like this gimmick that they don't know how to follow up on (they are just medical consultants). They offer rapid antidepressant relief, which is true -- but they made me feel like I was some odd case where the effects didn't last for me, and that I was someone that would have to keep coming in for more consecutive infusions in order to get lasting results. Retrospectively, it seems like pretty much everyone who gets an infusion, the effects don't last for more than a week or so - it is not some miracle cure. So if you do them, just go into them for the experience of getting a short period of relief, and knowing that is what you are going to get out of it. Now I am just trying to figure the reasons why ketamine worked so I can think about how I can find other medications that might work for the long term on similar mechanisms.

 

If going to an infusion clinic isn't an option, they told me at the clinic that some doctors are open to administering ketamine by IV, since it is done for anesthetic purposes. But my primary doctor wouldn't offer this to me personally, and I don't expect that many will unfortunately... sorry I can't offer more advice there. 

 

Memantine is sold in a liquid form at Ceretropic, that's where I've bought mine from. My terrible former psychiatrist arrogantly told me it wouldn't do anything for me and he wouldn't prescribe it off-label (it is pharmaceutically known as Namenda to treat Alzheimer's)... but it has been one of the more helpful things I've taken so far since researching medications on my own. I have heard that you need to go up in dose on it very slowly. I didn't have this experience personally but I would still be wary of it if you start to take it, since people say they get pretty bad brain fog from it from going up in dose too quickly. It also stays in your system for quite a long time.

 

Our problems with serotonin must be pretty similar since we feel the same about serotonin increasing medications. I also feel the same about tianeptine. It doesn't blunt me, I feel about the same emotionally. It supposedly is an SSRE but I've seen time and time again that it might not be a very strong SSRE, otherwise it would seem like it would help our problem more. I only stopped taking it because I felt like the idea of normalizing glutamate levels wasn't helping me feel more emotion, though overall I didn't dislike it.

 

 

thats really kind of your friend , does he know a lot about these things? , yes its reallly ashame that psychiatrist dont know much of this :-/..

 

its really entertaining to read your stuff, well written and it gives me hopes for my future even more!!!

 

 

they dont have one of these ktc parntership in my country :-/ - ; what does "ketamine by IV" mean ? what dose were the infusions?`and how many exactly did u have?

 

- memantine - im quite afraid of that that it causes long term brain fog... - and if it didnt really help your emotions but just way of thinking. i might leave it out for now..

 

are u going to try allicin ? mines arriving in a few days. it might help me anyway since i have gut problems, epstein barr virus, and runny nose most of the time because of my nasal septum distortion.

 

what substances will u try all next ? im curious

 

thats interesting that tianeptine effects us the same also .. hmm

 

 

 

 

[vere]

I had the exact experience you had with Ketamine.

No doubt this is a very deep depression you're in.

 

I suggest following this guide:

http://psychotropica...al-ad-algorithm

 

SSRI/SNRIs are rather useless, however when certain receptors are blocked (Such as 5HT2A & 5HT2C) and throwing in dopamine reuptake inhibition, you could get some great Anhedonia relief.

Then there is MAOIs if that fails.

 

Interesting to hear you had the same experience with ketamine. It's both an amazing antidepressant/emotion reviver and yet sadly doesn't feel sustainable.

 

Thanks for the suggestion/link to the guide! I've started to read through his stuff, and a lot of the things he says resonate with me. But I still can't help but feel really afraid of the idea of SSRIs/SNRIs, even if they are paired with things that might make them more effective. I'm not sure if my suspicion is unfounded or if maybe you have some insight on this. My biggest question is - despite blocking receptors 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C and balancing them with dopamine reuptake inhibition, it seems like serotonin reuptake inhibition is something I still want to avoid given the experiences I've had with increased serotonin through a variety of medicines/supplements. It's hard for me to believe that anything that results in an increase in serotonin would be helpful for me at this point. I've looked into MAOIs before as well but I have a similar fear about increasing neurotransmitters like serotonin and norepinephrine that have had a terrible impact on me. Is there anything in your personal experience that can confirm or deny this? 

 

Crazy how I believe I could have written that top thread myself. Okay so Im on trt (testosterone replacement therapy) and have a top of the range prolactin level. I had an mri and have a microadenoma. My doctor doesnt think I need to treat it unless I have symptoms of sexual dysfunction which I do but...............Im also on pristiq and remeron which are probably contributing to the dysfunction as well. My trt doc and my psychiatrist both don t think that lowering my prolactin will have any benefits on my mood. I may try cabergoline in a couple months to see if lowering my prolactin has any positive effects on my mood. As of now Im two weeks into finishing a 4 month benzo withdrawal so I want to finish that first. I also have ordered naltrexone and just recieved shipment in the mail yesterday so I will by trialing LDN soon as well. I was bottom of the range for testosterone when I started trt. I was 33 and my morning level was 10 or 300 depending which scale you use. I was hoping that trt was the holy grail of my mood issues but sadly it wasnt. It was beneficial enough to stay on and give me enough motivation to keep going. The biggest positive about trt for me was clearing the brain fog.

 

It's pretty crazy that it seems like doctors don't know much about how hormones might impact depression-like symptoms. I would have to believe that prolactin is at least a factor in this emotional numbness from reading experiences here so far, especially since you have a microadenoma. My doctors were hyper-focused on testosterone because my levels were below 300. For a while I believed it could be a problem, but I ended up deciding not to do TRT because I feel I have always been this way before my depression and it doesn't seem to be something wrong. Interesting to hear it wasn't as revolutionary for you as expected either.

 

I'd love to know how you do on cabergoline and LDN. I don't know how much credibility there is to the prolactin reducing effects of the supplement Vitex, but I have been taking it daily and have been feeling better overall since starting it. Can't be sure how much can be attributed to the Vitex yet unfortunately, but it could be worth a shot as well. I haven't tested my prolactin levels recently since taking it, so I can't confirm if they have gone down for sure either.

 

I'm not too familiar with Pristiq or Remeron but if they have mechanisms similar to SSRIs I have taken, and if your experience is similar to mine, I could see them causing issues as well. Do you feel like your benzo withdrawal is also a factor in your emotional numbness? I have seen quite a few people say they experienced numbness after using benzos. I have never taken them personally, just curious.

 

 

thats really kind of your friend , does he know a lot about these things? , yes its reallly ashame that psychiatrist dont know much of this :-/..

 

 

 

 

its really entertaining to read your stuff, well written and it gives me hopes for my future even more!!!

 

 

they dont have one of these ktc parntership in my country :-/ - ; what does "ketamine by IV" mean ? what dose were the infusions?`and how many exactly did u have?

 

- memantine - im quite afraid of that that it causes long term brain fog... - and if it didnt really help your emotions but just way of thinking. i might leave it out for now..

 

are u going to try allicin ? mines arriving in a few days. it might help me anyway since i have gut problems, epstein barr virus, and runny nose most of the time because of my nasal septum distortion.

 

what substances will u try all next ? im curious

 

thats interesting that tianeptine effects us the same also .. hmm

 

 

My friend isn't an expert or anything, though I would say she knows more about my depression now than psychiatrists have been able to figure out just from researching online - probably like most of the people around these forums. She does a lot of research for me because I am not always able to, which is very helpful.

 

I'm sorry, I am not sure why I assumed you were in the United States! I see now your profile says you're in Berlin. I'm not sure if I can be of much help because I don't know about the availability of ketamine/ketamine clinics there. But I will try to see if I can find anything. 

 

Ketamine by IV is intravenously - sorry for the confusion. This way, it goes straight into your bloodstream. It is the best form to take ketamine for being able to feel its results - taking nasally and orally tend to not be as effective of an antidepressant, from what I have heard/read.

 

There is a specific dose per pound/kilogram of your weight that they start your dose at. I started somewhere between 25-30mg but I went up to somewhere between 40-45mg. I went up in dose either because of tolerance/getting used to the dose I was at, and out of curiosity if the higher doses would make the antidepressant effects last longer (they didn't.) I had up to about 15 infusions. This was too many to realize that the effects wouldn't ever last, but I was convinced into getting more and more.

 

That makes sense to avoid memantine if you typically have issues with brain fog or feel like it might cause it long term. I don't normally, it doesn't have much impact on me in that way. Best way to describe memantine for me is it just gives me a pleasant, content feeling. I enjoy music and other activities more. At higher doses it makes me feel out of it, which sometimes I kind of like. But yes, no change to my emotions, which makes it clear that emotions are still very separate from "enjoyment."

 

I forgot to reply to your question before about feeling emotionally flat but positively vibed. If I'm understanding how you feel, it seems like I am the same way in that I can often enjoy things (such as music) despite feeling emotionally flat. Like my mood can be content still even without being able to feel emotional. Sometimes this is worse or better for me - I have gone through times where I don't enjoy doing anything and nothing gives me a content feeling, and I am also emotionally dead. I think some medications I have been taking have made this better (memantine and dopamine boosting things help this, NSI-189 has also been helpful). Some medications also make this worse (serotonin usually.)

 

I started Allicin this past week, along with a couple other supplements that Hip had listed in his post - L-Glutamine, Royal Jelly, and Green Coffee Bean extract. I started to take L-Glutamine, Royal Jelly, and Green Coffee Bean extract for one day at a time - I had taken them for two days and then the next day I felt pretty poor, the best way I can describe it is that I felt burnt out, like I didn't want to do anything anymore. I guess a sort of rebound anhedonia. All of these supplements definitely improved my anhedonia while on them. Because I haven't taken them one at a time it is hard to say what is doing what. But altogether, I really enjoyed and looked forward to taking them, and they left me with a pleasant feeling. I also tried taking memantine with them, which was nice as well. 

 

I feel that allicin is doing something, albeit subtle, for my emotions. I don't believe I have felt a benefit to my emotions per se with the other supplements. While not taking them, I have persistently taken allicin each day, and it seems like on the off days from the other supplements, I have still felt some subtle emotion benefits that I believe to be coming from the allicin. It's not a radical change in my emotions but I feel like I can hold onto a feeling for longer and not have my brain stop the feeling short.  I'll keep going with it to see if it continues to improve.

 

Overall I have been feeling quite a bit better taking these things recently, in addition to Vitex on a daily basis for prolactin reducing and serotonin reducing (hopefully) effects. My ability to cry has improved, something that has been really hard for me to do since this emotional flatness started. There is still the feeling of truly caring behind the crying that is missing though. It is hard to describe. I am also much less frustrated lately - able to walk away from bad situations, not get angry/incurably negative. This is something that gets really bad when taking anything that increases serotonin (and norepinephrine?) I feel some of the supplements that reduce serotonin have helped to bring me out of this, or maybe it's just avoiding medicines that increase them that have helped.

 

I had also tried Shilajit and Feverfew but both gave me a sort of blank mind feeling (I think because of GABA activity?) and I felt burned out by shilajit - it gave me a bad headache as well. Rhodiola gave me this feeling too after a couple days. It seems like dopaminergic medicines/supplements tend to help my anhedonia at first but they give me this burned out rebound anhedonia and sometimes headaches. I think this is why I do best when these are cycled more infrequently.

 

I am still looking out for things that I will try next, but going to give these medicines a bit more time to see how it works out for me over the course of another week or two, provided nothing goes wrong. 

[jaybird10 2]

Yeah I feel my benzo withdrawal is definitely impacting my mood. I m almost 2 weeks off the benzo and improving. Ill update you on the ldn and cabergoline if and when I try it. The remeron is great for sleep. I definitely would not have been able to come off the benzos without it. The dreams are pretty wild too!

[ThreeKings12341]

 

My friend isn't an expert or anything, though I would say she knows more about my depression now than psychiatrists have been able to figure out just from researching online - probably like most of the people around these forums. She does a lot of research for me because I am not always able to, which is very helpful.

 

I'm sorry, I am not sure why I assumed you were in the United States! I see now your profile says you're in Berlin. I'm not sure if I can be of much help because I don't know about the availability of ketamine/ketamine clinics there. But I will try to see if I can find anything. 

 

Ketamine by IV is intravenously - sorry for the confusion. This way, it goes straight into your bloodstream. It is the best form to take ketamine for being able to feel its results - taking nasally and orally tend to not be as effective of an antidepressant, from what I have heard/read.

 

There is a specific dose per pound/kilogram of your weight that they start your dose at. I started somewhere between 25-30mg but I went up to somewhere between 40-45mg. I went up in dose either because of tolerance/getting used to the dose I was at, and out of curiosity if the higher doses would make the antidepressant effects last longer (they didn't.) I had up to about 15 infusions. This was too many to realize that the effects wouldn't ever last, but I was convinced into getting more and more.

 

That makes sense to avoid memantine if you typically have issues with brain fog or feel like it might cause it long term. I don't normally, it doesn't have much impact on me in that way. Best way to describe memantine for me is it just gives me a pleasant, content feeling. I enjoy music and other activities more. At higher doses it makes me feel out of it, which sometimes I kind of like. But yes, no change to my emotions, which makes it clear that emotions are still very separate from "enjoyment."

 

I forgot to reply to your question before about feeling emotionally flat but positively vibed. If I'm understanding how you feel, it seems like I am the same way in that I can often enjoy things (such as music) despite feeling emotionally flat. Like my mood can be content still even without being able to feel emotional. Sometimes this is worse or better for me - I have gone through times where I don't enjoy doing anything and nothing gives me a content feeling, and I am also emotionally dead. I think some medications I have been taking have made this better (memantine and dopamine boosting things help this, NSI-189 has also been helpful). Some medications also make this worse (serotonin usually.)

 

I started Allicin this past week, along with a couple other supplements that Hip had listed in his post - L-Glutamine, Royal Jelly, and Green Coffee Bean extract. I started to take L-Glutamine, Royal Jelly, and Green Coffee Bean extract for one day at a time - I had taken them for two days and then the next day I felt pretty poor, the best way I can describe it is that I felt burnt out, like I didn't want to do anything anymore. I guess a sort of rebound anhedonia. All of these supplements definitely improved my anhedonia while on them. Because I haven't taken them one at a time it is hard to say what is doing what. But altogether, I really enjoyed and looked forward to taking them, and they left me with a pleasant feeling. I also tried taking memantine with them, which was nice as well. 

 

I feel that allicin is doing something, albeit subtle, for my emotions. I don't believe I have felt a benefit to my emotions per se with the other supplements. While not taking them, I have persistently taken allicin each day, and it seems like on the off days from the other supplements, I have still felt some subtle emotion benefits that I believe to be coming from the allicin. It's not a radical change in my emotions but I feel like I can hold onto a feeling for longer and not have my brain stop the feeling short.  I'll keep going with it to see if it continues to improve.

 

Overall I have been feeling quite a bit better taking these things recently, in addition to Vitex on a daily basis for prolactin reducing and serotonin reducing (hopefully) effects. My ability to cry has improved, something that has been really hard for me to do since this emotional flatness started. There is still the feeling of truly caring behind the crying that is missing though. It is hard to describe. I am also much less frustrated lately - able to walk away from bad situations, not get angry/incurably negative. This is something that gets really bad when taking anything that increases serotonin (and norepinephrine?) I feel some of the supplements that reduce serotonin have helped to bring me out of this, or maybe it's just avoiding medicines that increase them that have helped.

 

I had also tried Shilajit and Feverfew but both gave me a sort of blank mind feeling (I think because of GABA activity?) and I felt burned out by shilajit - it gave me a bad headache as well. Rhodiola gave me this feeling too after a couple days. It seems like dopaminergic medicines/supplements tend to help my anhedonia at first but they give me this burned out rebound anhedonia and sometimes headaches. I think this is why I do best when these are cycled more infrequently.

 

I am still looking out for things that I will try next, but going to give these medicines a bit more time to see how it works out for me over the course of another week or two, provided nothing goes wrong. 

 

 

That is really nice of her J,  its really important for us to have people who kind of understand what we are going through.

Like always thank your for your great reply’s!!!

 

I hope I will get the chance to try out ketamine once im done with low dose naltrexone. Sounds so good and it would motivate me so much more if I know how I would feel when I feel normal..

 

Hmm but is the memantine the form u got from a doc or over the internet (sorry if I asked already).

But its on my list anyway and maybe ill try it out if nothing else worked with certain problems.

 

 

Yep we do seem to feel quite same actually. I also had times where I couldn’t fdo anything because of lethargic condition and feeling empty even more – especially on ssris.. but paroxat knocked me out even more :O.

You mentioned “memantine and dopamine boosting things help this”, what dopamine stuff exactly are u talking about so I know J?

 

 

That sounds great about allicin!! :D Im gona start allicin again next week , I want to go off tianeptin. But I need tianeptine for the big test on Saturday because I get concentration boots on it and it diminished the brain fog – still im not sure without meds if I have brain fog all the time but last time I wanted to quit tianeptin and study for the test , I couldn’t really concentrate but one hour after taking  tianeptine, concentration returned.

So when you say you can hold “onto a feeling for longer”, that means u don’t permantly feel kinda flat? What kind of emotions do u feel and are they then dulled or normal (but rare)?

 

 

Do I have to do a normal blood test to get my prolactine levels done? Ive done a mrt last year but that didn’t show anything of that…

Wow J that sounds great! So you can feel sadness often – I mean if theres a reason? – when serious sitiuations occurred, mostly I had only a few tears without feelings, and if I cried with emotions (like 5 timeds a year or something – and I argued a lot with my gf) then for 10 seconds or something and then like empty flat like there was no sadness.. – did u have similar experience ealier in your life (since developing flat affect)?

And what did help you feeling sadness again (only vitex) ? How was it before, in the first years after developing flat affect?

And which allicin do you use and where do you get your supplements from? I bought allimax (I think its from us anyway)

 

Hmm let me know if dopamine supplements help you long termed without any negative effects. -

Ive read somewhere that people with flat affect  (schizophrenia typed disorders) take pregnenolone to fight their negative symptoms. – have u tried out that already? – im going to try that out plus DHEA  since ive done a saliva test on cortisol and dhea, and It came out that I have adreneal fatique syndrome ..

And last question, do you get motivation boots and better mood from caffeine? Do you drink coffe black tea or green tea?

[vere]

Yeah I feel my benzo withdrawal is definitely impacting my mood. I m almost 2 weeks off the benzo and improving. Ill update you on the ldn and cabergoline if and when I try it. The remeron is great for sleep. I definitely would not have been able to come off the benzos without it. The dreams are pretty wild too!

 

Cool, I am interested in how it goes with LDN and cabergoline. I'm glad to hear your benzo withdrawal is improving. Also, I didn't recognize remeron at first because I have only heard of it under the name mirtazapine. Do you feel like it is improving your emotionality, or at least not hurting it?

 

 

 

That is really nice of her J,  its really important for us to have people who kind of understand what we are going through.

Like always thank your for your great reply’s!!!

 

I hope I will get the chance to try out ketamine once im done with low dose naltrexone. Sounds so good and it would motivate me so much more if I know how I would feel when I feel normal..

 

Hmm but is the memantine the form u got from a doc or over the internet (sorry if I asked already).

But its on my list anyway and maybe ill try it out if nothing else worked with certain problems.

 

 

Yep we do seem to feel quite same actually. I also had times where I couldn’t fdo anything because of lethargic condition and feeling empty even more – especially on ssris.. but paroxat knocked me out even more :O.

You mentioned “memantine and dopamine boosting things help this”, what dopamine stuff exactly are u talking about so I know J?

 

 

That sounds great about allicin!! :D Im gona start allicin again next week , I want to go off tianeptin. But I need tianeptine for the big test on Saturday because I get concentration boots on it and it diminished the brain fog – still im not sure without meds if I have brain fog all the time but last time I wanted to quit tianeptin and study for the test , I couldn’t really concentrate but one hour after taking  tianeptine, concentration returned.

So when you say you can hold “onto a feeling for longer”, that means u don’t permantly feel kinda flat? What kind of emotions do u feel and are they then dulled or normal (but rare)?

 

 

Do I have to do a normal blood test to get my prolactine levels done? Ive done a mrt last year but that didn’t show anything of that…

Wow J that sounds great! So you can feel sadness often – I mean if theres a reason? – when serious sitiuations occurred, mostly I had only a few tears without feelings, and if I cried with emotions (like 5 timeds a year or something – and I argued a lot with my gf) then for 10 seconds or something and then like empty flat like there was no sadness.. – did u have similar experience ealier in your life (since developing flat affect)?

And what did help you feeling sadness again (only vitex) ? How was it before, in the first years after developing flat affect?

And which allicin do you use and where do you get your supplements from? I bought allimax (I think its from us anyway)

 

Hmm let me know if dopamine supplements help you long termed without any negative effects. -

Ive read somewhere that people with flat affect  (schizophrenia typed disorders) take pregnenolone to fight their negative symptoms. – have u tried out that already? – im going to try that out plus DHEA  since ive done a saliva test on cortisol and dhea, and It came out that I have adreneal fatique syndrome ..

And last question, do you get motivation boots and better mood from caffeine? Do you drink coffe black tea or green tea?

 

 

Yeah, my friend is actually the owner of this account but she is letting me post on here. Without her encouragement I wouldn't be able to care enough to post for myself.

 

It definitely is a motivation boost to be able to feel your normal self again, to have a clear idea of what it is you are even trying to get better for. That's why I liked ketamine personally. I am definitely looking forward to hearing how your trial with LDN goes as well, it's something I'm interested in trying out and it'd be great to see it working for other people like me.

 

I've been on a few things that boost dopamine (to my knowledge.) A lot of things seem to boost dopamine indirectly, I'm not sure what all of those would be. Rhodiola, Royal Jelly, Green Coffee Bean Extract all seem to have a similar dopaminergic feeling to me, where they give me a little more energy, a little mood boost, and allow me to enjoy doing things a little more. Though I don't feel great results with dopamine supplements in general. They don't feel like they will ever lead to me feeling more, and they burn me out quickly - I get a sort of rebound anhedonia in a way after a couple days of taking any of these things, where I don't enjoy doing anything.

 

That's great that tianeptine helps with your brain fog. I don't have too much brain fog to begin with so I didn't notice this effect of it, but I wonder what it is about it that helps with that. My experience with Tianeptine Sulfate was that it felt pretty safe to keep taking even though I didn't personally get much benefit from it. Do you take the sulfate form?

 

I stopped allicin for now because I try to minimize drug interactions if I am changing my medications, but I may add it back in in the future. I feel like its effects on me were very subtle but I would like to see how it goes in the long term. I got my Allicin from a local food store

 

About being able to hold on to feelings for a little longer: if I start to feel something, get a glimpse of an emotion, sometimes as soon as I become aware of it, it goes away completely very quickly. With some of the things I have been taking recently, (and I feel like avoiding increasing serotonin levels in general), I don't immediately lose the feeling, but can feel it for a little more time than usual before it goes away. Feeling something is still kind of rare for me, but for example if I look at my cat (who is the best cat), I can sometimes get that feeling of deeper happiness inside I used to before becoming emotionally flat. It still goes away fairly quickly, like within 10 seconds, but at least there is a brief window. When I go for a walk when I am feeling better, I also feel that I can more easily see the whole picture of things instead of getting tunnel vision and only seeing one part of something, or staring at the sidewalk the whole time because everything is equally boring and emotionally uninspiring. This makes me feel a deeper appreciation for seeing things that I like. Most of the time, I would honestly prefer to be able to feel the sadness of the state I am in. Being able to emotionally realize this would help me see why it is that I want to get better. It bothers me that the majority of the time I can't even care that I don't care about my condition, and that I could go on in an emotionally dead, unfulfilling state like a robot for the rest of my life.

 

My psychiatrist and urologist both ordered blood tests that looked at hormones specifically. I don't think standard blood work indicates anything about hormones. You could probably ask a primary doctor for blood work that looks at hormones to see how your prolactin level is.

 

I can't feel sadness often enough, and it is also very dulled, like when I am able to cry it doesn't feel like it has that strong emotion behind it that makes it relieving and cathartic to cry, it feels more like empty tears and like I'd have to yawn to be able to keep forcing myself to cry. In the years before my flat affect I could definitely feel sadness, I used to be quite emotional. As I was starting to develop flat affect I felt this start to go away, my emotions became more dulled about things I used to care deeply about. This didn't get very bad until I took SSRIs though. I feel like I had this problem to begin with but taking these antidepressants replaced my flat affect with a different artificially created chemical imbalance that felt even less like myself. In my present state, I relate really strongly to what you've mentioned - feeling for about 10 seconds and having it go away abruptly leaving just flatness.

 

I think Vitex may be responsible to some degree for helping me not feel so blocked off when I am trying to feel something. I took a large mix of stuff recently - Shilajit, Feverfew, L-Glutamine, Royal Jelly, Green Coffee Been Extract, Allicin, Memantine. It is hard to say what helped what but Vitex has been one I wanted to take persistently despite still being sort of subtle. Every other one I have stopped because of a negative reason. Shilajit and Feverfew felt too strong on GABA and gave me a blank minded feeling. L-Glutamine may have brightened my mood but it felt too weak and its effects seemed to disappear if it had any to begin with. Royal Jelly and Green Coffee Bean extract I think all helped, and I took them with memantine. Altogether they seemed to be a good combo but I only wanted to take them infrequently because the effects started to go away or become less strong with repeat use. I feel that all of them have positively impacted me in some ways overall, but I don't really know that anything has done anything major to my emotions. But I do feel better than I did a month or so ago before taking these.

 

I get most of my supplements that you can buy over the counter from a local health food store, but for chemicals that wouldn't be at a health food store, I mostly buy online from Ceretropic, Nootropics Depot, and PowderCity. I think my allicin brand is the brand of the health food store I go to.

 

I actually did try out pregnenolone - I forgot to put that on here. I only tried it for a couple days because I think it was making me very irritable. I would bet this is different for everyone though. That is interesting about your adrenal fatigue, I hope those things help. Do you feel that the brain fog you mentioned might be related to adrenal fatigue as well?

 

I don't feel caffeine very much at all unfortunately, I actually never have even before my depression, and even though I used to drink coffee even more frequently than I do now. But I drink coffee and teas because I enjoy them, though mentally I don't get much effect from them.

 

Right now I went off everything I was taking because I want to try something new and different. Although what I was taking was helpful, I didn't see it going much further than it already did. I have still been thinking a lot about why ketamine was such an emotional experience for me. I had read an article about ketamine's metabolite, hydroxynorketamine, being responsible for its antidepressant effects. I experienced intense emotion only at the end of the ketamine infusion period and it would come on extremely suddenly - maybe this is when it was breaking down into its metabolite in my body. Hydroxynorketamine has AMPA activity, but no NMDA antagonism. While NMDA antagonism is nice in a way, in itself (from taking other NMDA antagonist medications) it doesn't really feel particularly good or bad emotionally for me - just a sort of nice feeling, maybe anti-anxiety. The NMDA antagonism is responsible for the dissociative state of ketamine, which is what you feel for the majority of the infusion, and it's an interesting experience. But, it feels like at least for me, the AMPA activity of its metabolite is what I believe caused the intense emotional feelings. This is something I'm still seeking out in a medicine that I can take.

 

Researching other things that affect AMPA, the majority of ones currently accessible are racetams. There's still a gap in my knowledge about why it doesn't seem that racetams increase emotionality, but actually often dull it for people despite affecting AMPA. Maybe it is the particular type of AMPA activity. I am looking towards the more AMPA-kine like medications - but a lot of them are very new and experimental. And even these are known for enhancing cognition more than increasing emotion or anything.

 

I recently bought Unifiram to see how it would affect me, for this reason. I am just starting it and I am taking very small doses, 5mg or less at a time, no more than 2 times per day. I can notice it affecting my emotions in a good way but it is still early to tell. I definitely feel that it is making me look at things differently, notice things I wouldn't normally, though it feels subtle (could be the dose I am taking is still low for me). I have heard it described as being smooth feeling and I'd agree with that - no really forceful impact on me but I do like what it is doing. Dreams have also been more vivid or memorable on it. I have had a pretty persistent headache which has been distracting me from the positives of unifiram so far, I think from taking it, so I unfortunately might have to stop taking it, if it is the cause. I have read some things that say it increases acetylcholine, but I thought racetams typically are taken with choline because they enhance the reuptake of acetylcholine - depleting it. So I am not sure which way a racerams go and if acetylcholine could be a factor in my headache. I'll have to do more research on this.

 

I have also heard about IDRA-21, another new experimental AMPAkine - amplifying emotion - both positive and negative emotion. I'm hesitant because of the potential negative emotional effects (I don't mind negative emotions but if they would be too strong or outweigh the positive I could see it being detrimental), but anything that could potentially intensify emotion at all is interesting to me. I'd also like to be really cautious trying out these newer AMPAkines, but I want to see their effects on me to see if this is in the right direction.

[ThreeKings12341]

 

 

Yeah, my friend is actually the owner of this account but she is letting me post on here. Without her encouragement I wouldn't be able to care enough to post for myself.

 

It definitely is a motivation boost to be able to feel your normal self again, to have a clear idea of what it is you are even trying to get better for. That's why I liked ketamine personally. I am definitely looking forward to hearing how your trial with LDN goes as well, it's something I'm interested in trying out and it'd be great to see it working for other people like me.

 

I've been on a few things that boost dopamine (to my knowledge.) A lot of things seem to boost dopamine indirectly, I'm not sure what all of those would be. Rhodiola, Royal Jelly, Green Coffee Bean Extract all seem to have a similar dopaminergic feeling to me, where they give me a little more energy, a little mood boost, and allow me to enjoy doing things a little more. Though I don't feel great results with dopamine supplements in general. They don't feel like they will ever lead to me feeling more, and they burn me out quickly - I get a sort of rebound anhedonia in a way after a couple days of taking any of these things, where I don't enjoy doing anything.

 

That's great that tianeptine helps with your brain fog. I don't have too much brain fog to begin with so I didn't notice this effect of it, but I wonder what it is about it that helps with that. My experience with Tianeptine Sulfate was that it felt pretty safe to keep taking even though I didn't personally get much benefit from it. Do you take the sulfate form?

 

I stopped allicin for now because I try to minimize drug interactions if I am changing my medications, but I may add it back in in the future. I feel like its effects on me were very subtle but I would like to see how it goes in the long term. I got my Allicin from a local food store

 

About being able to hold on to feelings for a little longer: if I start to feel something, get a glimpse of an emotion, sometimes as soon as I become aware of it, it goes away completely very quickly. With some of the things I have been taking recently, (and I feel like avoiding increasing serotonin levels in general), I don't immediately lose the feeling, but can feel it for a little more time than usual before it goes away. Feeling something is still kind of rare for me, but for example if I look at my cat (who is the best cat), I can sometimes get that feeling of deeper happiness inside I used to before becoming emotionally flat. It still goes away fairly quickly, like within 10 seconds, but at least there is a brief window. When I go for a walk when I am feeling better, I also feel that I can more easily see the whole picture of things instead of getting tunnel vision and only seeing one part of something, or staring at the sidewalk the whole time because everything is equally boring and emotionally uninspiring. This makes me feel a deeper appreciation for seeing things that I like. Most of the time, I would honestly prefer to be able to feel the sadness of the state I am in. Being able to emotionally realize this would help me see why it is that I want to get better. It bothers me that the majority of the time I can't even care that I don't care about my condition, and that I could go on in an emotionally dead, unfulfilling state like a robot for the rest of my life.

 

My psychiatrist and urologist both ordered blood tests that looked at hormones specifically. I don't think standard blood work indicates anything about hormones. You could probably ask a primary doctor for blood work that looks at hormones to see how your prolactin level is.

 

I can't feel sadness often enough, and it is also very dulled, like when I am able to cry it doesn't feel like it has that strong emotion behind it that makes it relieving and cathartic to cry, it feels more like empty tears and like I'd have to yawn to be able to keep forcing myself to cry. In the years before my flat affect I could definitely feel sadness, I used to be quite emotional. As I was starting to develop flat affect I felt this start to go away, my emotions became more dulled about things I used to care deeply about. This didn't get very bad until I took SSRIs though. I feel like I had this problem to begin with but taking these antidepressants replaced my flat affect with a different artificially created chemical imbalance that felt even less like myself. In my present state, I relate really strongly to what you've mentioned - feeling for about 10 seconds and having it go away abruptly leaving just flatness.

 

I think Vitex may be responsible to some degree for helping me not feel so blocked off when I am trying to feel something. I took a large mix of stuff recently - Shilajit, Feverfew, L-Glutamine, Royal Jelly, Green Coffee Been Extract, Allicin, Memantine. It is hard to say what helped what but Vitex has been one I wanted to take persistently despite still being sort of subtle. Every other one I have stopped because of a negative reason. Shilajit and Feverfew felt too strong on GABA and gave me a blank minded feeling. L-Glutamine may have brightened my mood but it felt too weak and its effects seemed to disappear if it had any to begin with. Royal Jelly and Green Coffee Bean extract I think all helped, and I took them with memantine. Altogether they seemed to be a good combo but I only wanted to take them infrequently because the effects started to go away or become less strong with repeat use. I feel that all of them have positively impacted me in some ways overall, but I don't really know that anything has done anything major to my emotions. But I do feel better than I did a month or so ago before taking these.

 

I get most of my supplements that you can buy over the counter from a local health food store, but for chemicals that wouldn't be at a health food store, I mostly buy online from Ceretropic, Nootropics Depot, and PowderCity. I think my allicin brand is the brand of the health food store I go to.

 

I actually did try out pregnenolone - I forgot to put that on here. I only tried it for a couple days because I think it was making me very irritable. I would bet this is different for everyone though. That is interesting about your adrenal fatigue, I hope those things help. Do you feel that the brain fog you mentioned might be related to adrenal fatigue as well?

 

I don't feel caffeine very much at all unfortunately, I actually never have even before my depression, and even though I used to drink coffee even more frequently than I do now. But I drink coffee and teas because I enjoy them, though mentally I don't get much effect from them.

 

Right now I went off everything I was taking because I want to try something new and different. Although what I was taking was helpful, I didn't see it going much further than it already did. I have still been thinking a lot about why ketamine was such an emotional experience for me. I had read an article about ketamine's metabolite, hydroxynorketamine, being responsible for its antidepressant effects. I experienced intense emotion only at the end of the ketamine infusion period and it would come on extremely suddenly - maybe this is when it was breaking down into its metabolite in my body. Hydroxynorketamine has AMPA activity, but no NMDA antagonism. While NMDA antagonism is nice in a way, in itself (from taking other NMDA antagonist medications) it doesn't really feel particularly good or bad emotionally for me - just a sort of nice feeling, maybe anti-anxiety. The NMDA antagonism is responsible for the dissociative state of ketamine, which is what you feel for the majority of the infusion, and it's an interesting experience. But, it feels like at least for me, the AMPA activity of its metabolite is what I believe caused the intense emotional feelings. This is something I'm still seeking out in a medicine that I can take.

 

Researching other things that affect AMPA, the majority of ones currently accessible are racetams. There's still a gap in my knowledge about why it doesn't seem that racetams increase emotionality, but actually often dull it for people despite affecting AMPA. Maybe it is the particular type of AMPA activity. I am looking towards the more AMPA-kine like medications - but a lot of them are very new and experimental. And even these are known for enhancing cognition more than increasing emotion or anything.

 

I recently bought Unifiram to see how it would affect me, for this reason. I am just starting it and I am taking very small doses, 5mg or less at a time, no more than 2 times per day. I can notice it affecting my emotions in a good way but it is still early to tell. I definitely feel that it is making me look at things differently, notice things I wouldn't normally, though it feels subtle (could be the dose I am taking is still low for me). I have heard it described as being smooth feeling and I'd agree with that - no really forceful impact on me but I do like what it is doing. Dreams have also been more vivid or memorable on it. I have had a pretty persistent headache which has been distracting me from the positives of unifiram so far, I think from taking it, so I unfortunately might have to stop taking it, if it is the cause. I have read some things that say it increases acetylcholine, but I thought racetams typically are taken with choline because they enhance the reuptake of acetylcholine - depleting it. So I am not sure which way a racerams go and if acetylcholine could be a factor in my headache. I'll have to do more research on this.

 

I have also heard about IDRA-21, another new experimental AMPAkine - amplifying emotion - both positive and negative emotion. I'm hesitant because of the potential negative emotional effects (I don't mind negative emotions but if they would be too strong or outweigh the positive I could see it being detrimental), but anything that could potentially intensify emotion at all is interesting to me. I'd also like to be really cautious trying out these newer AMPAkines, but I want to see their effects on me to see if this is in the right direction.

 

 

 hi thank you for replying.

 

That’s really nice of her!

 

yeah, Ketamine is on my radar. I need that boost.  I will tell u as soon as possible I take ldn, how it works for me

 

 

 No I took Stablon (prescribed from doc). But I stopped all tablets now since im seeing a new doc and I have to do blood tests.. but I feel much fetter without taking any supplements and medication at the moment. Not emotionaly wise. But im just more positive since we have sun again and I was on vacation also…

 

 

I have the same thing like you. I cant even care too that I don’t care, but at least we are trying to get better. Also emotions that stay only for a few seconds, but I have those situations really rare..

 

At least u know were your flat affect comes from, I don’t even know anymore L. Is it the chronic sadness I had, epsteinbar virus, weed, ssri? I don’t know . but at least we are not giving up on ourselfs .

 

 

Where you get your memantine from? That thing with prolactin sounds very interesting and I told my doc about this. Well see how the levels on prolactine will be.

 

 I don’t know if the brain fog comes from the adrenal fatique. I will know this year if pregnenolone and dhea and such things will help me.. but one step after the other…. Have u tried the saliva test for dhea and cortisol to check if you have adrenal fatique syndrome?

 

Very interesting reasearches. Keep me updated on those things!! Unfortunately I don’t have much clue about neurochemistry ndma, .. etc… . I wish I had.. but I hope u will find something what help u and maybe even me – if Ill find something interesting ill tell you for sure!!

[MJ82]

vere, just a note on terminology: anhedonia and emotional flatness (aka: blunted affect) are different things, although they often appear together.

Anhedonia is defined as a lack of sense of pleasure or reward from life's normal activities. The reward circuits of the brain are inactive in anhedonia, so the experience of pleasure and reward on completing tasks is absent.

Emotional flatness (blunted affect) is slightly different to anhedonia. In emotional flatness, the normal emotional responses (love, sadness, compassion, surprise, guilt, shame, anger, joy, etc) are weak or absent. So for example, if you watch an emotional drama on TV, you tend to experience the drama in a cold, often cynical way, as you don't really engage with the emotions in the story.

You don't appear to have anhedonia, because you still enjoy doing things. People with anhedonia find no pleasure, enjoyment or reward from activities.


Anyway, I have some suggestions for you that might help your emotional flatness, based on the supplements that I found work for my emotional flatness: see the list of emotion boosting supplements in this post (and also this post).

Out of these supplements, the only one that worked on a consistent, long term basis is allicin 1,000 mg daily (6 x 180 mg allicin capsules taken once daily).

I think allicin works via its action on the hypothalamus, a part of the brain that plays an important role in emotional processing.

The other supplements also work, but I found they stop working if you take them every day (but maybe you will have better luck with them). So I found you can only take them now and then, when they will trigger sometimes a strong return of the emotions, but only for 3 or 4 hours.

Can I ask how quickly after taking high dose Allicin supplements did you start to feel an effect on diminishing emotional blunting?

Also, is it safe to take at such high doses since it can have blood thinning properties?

And lastly did you notice any BO or garlic on your breath at such a high dose?

Thanks

Edited by MJ82, 09 April 2018 - 02:27 PM.

[Hip]

Can I ask how quickly after taking high dose Allicin supplements did you start to feel an effect on diminishing emotional blunting?

Also, is it safe to take at such high doses since it can have blood thinning properties?

And lastly did you notice any BO or garlic on your breath at such a high dose?

Thanks

 

After a few hours the effects kick in for me, I think; you'll have to check the max recommended dose (which I think is 9 capsules, but please check); I did not notice any odor, but long-term high dose use may reduce friendly bacteria in the gut, so a probiotic might be a good idea.

[ThreeKings12341]

allicin didnt help me at all...

[MJ82]

After a few hours the effects kick in for me, I think; you'll have to check the max recommended dose (which I think is 9 capsules, but please check); I did not notice any odor, but long-term high dose use may reduce friendly bacteria in the gut, so a probiotic might be a good idea.

Thanks, I will make sure to do that. Do the high doses needed mean there will be significant blood thinning?

Also did you notice any lasting improvement once you stopped Allicin?

[Hip]

Thanks, I will make sure to do that. Do the high doses needed mean there will be significant blood thinning?

Also did you notice any lasting improvement once you stopped Allicin?

 

I don't know how much it will thin the blood. The emotional benefits only occur while you take allicin.

[gintrux]

Is anyone interested in this stepholidine group synthesis? It could help with amotivation, anhedonia, apathy. In one study it increased D1, D2 receptors by 40% https://www.longecit...ia-amotivation/