12 replies to this topic

[normalizing]

i found this alarming study; https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27639119

 

im curious now, eventually ketogenic diet is not as good for neurological function as it was claimed. what is the take on this, questions and comments etc, ?

[ta5]

It's interesting. Thanks for posting it. But, they are genetically messed up mice, so I'm not sure what practical application this has. Lots of transgenic animal studies show unexpected results.

 

 

Instead of posting only a link, I think it's better to post the abstract so we can all read it right here, and it improves search.

 

Neurobiol Aging. 2016 Dec;48:34-47.
A ketogenic diet accelerates neurodegeneration in mice with induced mitochondrial DNA toxicity in the forebrain.

Mitochondrial genome maintenance plays a central role in preserving brain health. We previously demonstrated accumulation of mitochondrial DNA damage and severe neurodegeneration in transgenic mice inducibly expressing a mutated mitochondrial DNA repair enzyme (mutUNG1) selectively in forebrain neurons. Here, we examine whether severe neurodegeneration in mutUNG1-expressing mice could be rescued by feeding the mice a ketogenic diet, which is known to have beneficial effects in several neurological disorders. The diet increased the levels of superoxide dismutase 2, and mitochondrial mass, enzymes, and regulators such as SIRT1 and FIS1, and appeared to downregulate N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) receptor subunits NR2A/B and upregulate γ-aminobutyric acid A (GABAA) receptor subunits α1. However, unexpectedly, the ketogenic diet aggravated neurodegeneration and mitochondrial deterioration. Electron microscopy showed structurally impaired mitochondria accumulating in neuronal perikarya. We propose that aggravation is caused by increased mitochondrial biogenesis of generally dysfunctional mitochondria. This study thereby questions the dogma that a ketogenic diet is unambiguously beneficial in mitochondrial disorders.

KEYWORDS: Biogenesis; Ketogenic diet; MtDNA damage; Neurodegeneration
PMID: 27639119

[normalizing]

yeah i could not get access to full study, i always usually first find NCBI articles and then figure out i have to pay for full article so i give up.

 

and yes, they are mutant mice, but, wouldnt that be of even more importance when it comes to testing compounds that might have either negative or positive effect since there is not much defense mechanism to control, prevent and/or discourage quick results in either direction, good or bad?

like for example if ketogenic diet actually has any positive or negative effect on humans who are genetically "stable" we wont know or have good results for many many years of studies because their system is preventing direct quick results versus deteriorated system mechanism that can exhibit quick results because of lack of "homeostasis" for one thing that comes to mind out of many, that stable safe system mechanism does. in short, i would think allowing an opening for better understanding of things is actually interesting and worthwhile to review, like mutants in the case of these mice AND im confused as to how usually these show negative results for most things that are considered good for a healthy organism, though beyond the obvious lack of ability for "homeostasis" and safe defense system to exposure to foreign substances

[Kalliste]

Mice are natural carbohydrate consumers, aren't they? And genetically fucked mice at that. Look at the keto Groups on facebook, those ppl are losing dozens of kilos of inflammatory generating fat tissue.

[William Sterog]

The user ivres1 has posted this on reddit:
 

They tested a ketogenic diet in mice with a particular kind of neural degeneration and found that it aggravated the degeneration rather than helping it as previously hypothesised. This led them to the conclusion that ketogenic diets may not be helpful "unambiguously" in other words there may be certain situations where ketogenic diets are not recommended to help with neurodegeneration. Previously they believed that it helped ALL neurodegenerative diseases and it turns out that in mice that may not be the case.
Mice are OFTEN used as a first example of how something will behave in humans, though the information is not always transferable, it often is. So if ketogenic diets are not always helpful in mice then it stands to reason that there may be certain neurodegenerative disorders in humans which might likewise be exacerbated by a ketogenic diet rather than helped.
It doesn't say anything about keto affecting a healthy brain or otherwise being bad for you, simply that it may interact badly with certain other issues.
Edited to add: In this study, the neurodegeneration which is being looked at is mitochondrial DNA toxicity in the forebrain. Not a common issue.

 

 

[fairy]

>yeah i could not get access to full study, i always usually first find NCBI articles and then figure out i have to pay for full article so i give up.

Copy the DOI

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2016.08.005

in here:
http://sci-hub.cc/.

[normalizing]

im still not sure what to think of it. why would they test it on genetically screwed mice to begin with?

 

anyway, all the positive results i see from keto diet so far is relation to epilepsy, i guess its not really much help for other problems

[gamesguru]

 its not really much help for other problems

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2716748/

 

 

Quercetin and other flavonoids aren't "unhealthy", but in the same way as a ketogenic diet they also flush out zombie mitochdondria through the same mitophagy-dependent or mitochondria mediated apoptosis.  You insert the mutUNG1 and the mitochdondria for that cell (forebrain in this case) become weakened, anything that normally improves its metabolism is now the straw that broke the camel's back... zinc, molybdenum, apigenen and quercetin to name a few.  So in fact, read properly, all this study seems to suggest is that a ketogenic diet would flush out bad mitochondria and thereby reduce rates of rogue cancers.  This is actually a good thing.  You need to produce evidence of ketogenic diet causing harm to healthy, normal mitochondria.

Edited by gamesguru, 27 March 2017 - 12:13 PM.

[fiftyyy]

Tried going keto for several days, did not like it. Had the feeling of decreased brain power. Anyone else can relate?

[Gravy]

I've done it for fat loss purposes. It only starts to get better if you stick with it. The first 1-2weeks can leave you feeling weak or off. It's great for fat loss and inflammation though. It just gets very expensive if you have a decent appetite and want to feel full. Carbohydrates are a lot cheaper.

[normalizing]

Tried going keto for several days, did not like it. Had the feeling of decreased brain power. Anyone else can relate?

 

judging by the study, you might have dysfunctional mithochondria so ketogenic diet makes you worse than usual. isnt that right guys?

[fairy]

Tried going keto for several days, did not like it. Had the feeling of decreased brain power. Anyone else can relate?

 

You don't try it for "several days". It can take years to adapt (https://goo.gl/xLy9ZE).

I suggest you stick to it for at least a month and read carefully this: https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq.

Personally, I found myself smarter on keto.

[normalizing]

wow several years?? what about constipation issues? thats the biggest problem. the fact your good bacteria needs those starches, craves them to death in fact, is what worries me. how can they exist solely on fats? poor bastards