95 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

 

 

 

Ok, this doesn't jive... Methylcobalamin, TMG, folate, and riboflavin were said to slow telomere attrition and people got longer telomeres with AIV and TA65/Cycloastragenol. So what's the rate of TA65 efficacy? How many base pairs are being added and how long would it take to replace lost telos? 16% is that in a year or over the lifetime of the patient? What is the starting age? Is transparent information available? I'd hate to see young people age unnecessarily and not make use of technologies so they could be sold more products when they are more aged and the age at which you start is likely to be very important to the efficacy of the product. Why shouldn't people under 25 use this product? Telomeres start shortening around 17 iirc. Wouldn't telomere maintenance be most productive in young people? Or young people just don't have that kind of money to spend?

Personally, I take 50mg/day of cycloastragenol. I don't take it continuously due to the expense, but eventually I may, and faster dosing would be expected to show results in a more timely manner.

Does anyone have more information on this? Is a diagram of the molecule available?

Its 16% of the amount of telomerase activation that it takes to immortalize an adult human cell line. Now cells that are senecent or close to have slower turnover rates, and thus slower telomere attrition rates, and that is probably the reason that some of them had their telomeres lenghtened by something as mild as TA65.

 

So in other words, it will cost $5,600 a month to take enough to escape telomere attrition ($800/bottle/month *7)?  I need to make at least $67k/yr just to fix my telomeres? I wonder if I can just drink stem cell culture media with meals... I guess I could take the whole bottle over the course of 4-5 days, once a month and take cycloastragenol the rest of the days ($9,600/yr)... How dose dependent is this stuff? What's the LD50?

 

How long until the next iteration comes out?

 

 

As far as stopping attrition or reversing it altogether by taking massive amounts of a  low level telomerase activator like TAM818 or TA65, I don't think it works like that. At some point there's gotta be diminished benefits and tolerance for any single molecule. I wouldn't try it. Unless you're really getting up there in age and have a lot of disposable cash, then maybe.

 

I understand that, but sometimes you have to think in terms of the impossible to find the possible. There are plenty of complexes that produce stunning results that exceed the potential of the individual components. If TA65 stops working at some point, it's because you run out of cofactors. So what pathways do we need to leverage and beef up in order to get TA65 to perform like the Yamanaka Factors in terms of telomere extension? Monotherapy thinking will never get us to immortality. We need to think in relational and hierarchical systems if we are to succeed. 

 

So TA65 extends telos on critically short chromosomes... Do we need to waste time on those? Or can we just kill them off with apigenin? Apigenin is a p53 activator (p53 shortens telos), but it also lengthens telomeres. So it would appear that senolytics (assuming it is one given it is similar to quercetin in function) remove the underperformers, then the telomere extenders can concentrate on improving the healthier cells. Is it important to extend critically short telomeres? Astragaloside IV can be equal in potency to TA65 and it's cheaper. Is TAM818 just a mashup of Astragaloside IV and apigenin? Perhaps acetylated?

 

Can we get more TA65 into more areas of cells by taking it with EDTA? Will it spontaneously acetylate if they are in the same capsule and we wash it down with dilute ethanol? In a broad sense, that should give it more access to our metabolism, but what's next? Can we take it with thymine, adenine, guanine, and cytosine? I know these have been used as drugs to inhibit viral transcription, but they are also the building blocks of telomeres, which are TTAGGG/AATCC repetitions, so perhaps we can simply overload our metabolisms with that ratio (balanced).

 

How do we down regulate Shelterin and TERRA? How do we up regulate nonsense mediated decay factor? Increase CST Complex Proteins? Increase Telomerase Reverse Transcriptase?

 

There are lots of pathways which we can enhance to delimit telomere growth potential. Assuming we get it right and complex it with enough other stuff to enhance DNA repair mechanisms, the sky is the limit. Nothing is impossible! Even if we make mistakes, if we've regenerated our thymus, removed senescent cells, repaired our DNA, replaced damaged mitos with good ones, our innate and active immune systems will more than readily be able to clean up after us! That's why I have such a problem with the worship of overpriced mono-actives. If it's going to cost $9,600/yr for the TAM818, how much is it going to cost for each of the rest? Will we ever get appreciable results? For my money, I'll strategically complex the cheap stuff and buy a few bottles of the expensive stuff periodically to see if it's worth waiting for a price drop.

[YOLF]

My results were so good, I'm retesting before I get excited.

 

Were you taking any senolytics? What else are you taking besides TA65? I suppose senolytics would give you a spike in average telo lengths. 

 

Is there anywhere you can send a skin sample? Perhaps a sample of some other tissue? I wouldn't mind a few scars to measure the effects of this stuff on tissue. If all we're measuring is blood cells, we may just be getting really healthy blood and prevent some cancers and other pathologies from metastasizing. And while that's good, what people are paying for when they buy this stuff, is systemic rejuvenation, particularly better skin.

 

Something that came to mind recently was that something like TAM818 and TA65 might only give some short term improvements in tissue by converting pathogenic cells into healthy cells (at least until we figure out how to take these technologies to the extent that we're immortalizing our cells). Do the improvements continue over time or do they improve for a short term and then continue to age slowly and more uniformly?

[Robert Seitz]

Hi, Yolf! The reason I turned to Life Length to measure my telomere lengths (median and shortest) was that Life Length was the testing service that my TA-65 supplier (and referring physician), Dr. Ed Park, was using to measure the telomere lengths of his TA-65 patients. Life Length was founded by Maria Blasco, and was considered the gold standard for telomere length testing at the time (May, 2012). (I had a blood sample drawn at our local hospital. It was put on ice in a foam container, and picked up almost immediately by FedEx. It was then rushed to the airport, where it was carried on the next flight to Florida. I don't know whether it was analyzed in Florida or whether it was transshipped to Dr. Blasco's lab in Spain.

I don't know who Life Length's other patients are then or now. Life Length is in the telomere length testing business and to my knowledge, serves the general public.

"What proportion of other patients see huge increases like this?"

To me, that's the $64,000,000,000 question. I didn't expect to see any increase in my median telomere length, and only a modest improvement in my percentage of critically short telomeres. I immediately contacted Dr. Park and asked, "What's going on here?" If he answered that question, it didn't register with me. I considered posting this on Longecity at the time, but thought that I would wait and see if my telomere distributions rose further after a couple of more years of TA-65. (I won't know the answer until I take my latest Life Length testing kit to the Huntsville Hospital Lab to get an up-to-date telomere length test, which I think I really need to do before I start a course of endoluten).

It's worth noting that I didn't feel any different after I took TA-65 than I did before I took TA-65, nor did I see any notable changes in my bloodwork or my exercise capacity (unlike some of Dr. Park's other patients).

Of course, Dr. Park was TA-65 supplier. It all began when I won a 30-capsule bottle of TA-65 in a drawing that he held in August, 1011.

The purpose of the Salk study was to modestly rejuvenate mice without turning them into tens of billions of embryonic stem cells. One link to a Salk Institute article is https://www.salk.edu...se-signs-aging/. A search on "Salk 2016 Yamanaka factors" will bring up other articles describing this... really... breakthrough. This is something I've eagerly wished to see, although I wasn't sure that it could be done. (I read a couple of years ago about a second set of four Yamanaka-like factors that also carried differentiated cells back to pluripotent stem cells. One concern was that both of these sets of factors contained an oncogene, which raised safety concerns.

The names of the Yamanaka factors are: Oct4, Sox2, Klf4, and c-Myc. I think these four factors were identified for study because they're prominent in zygotes. 

The reason that critically short telomeres are important is the cell either self-destructs or becomes senescent when the shortest telomere on any of its chromosomes becomes critically short, and TA-65 (and presumably, TAM-818) are selectively used by cells to lengthen their shortest telomere or telomeres. That's why weak telomerase activators like TA-65 can play a role out of all proportion to their telomerase induction properties in salvaging failing cells.

I should probably mention that I saw dose-response curves for TA-65 that showed a roughly proportional increase in TA-6 levels up to 20 capsules a day. Then the curve plateaued, falling off at still higher doses. It was also mentioned at the time that Bill Andrews was taking 20 TA-65 capsules a day back in 2011.

[marcobjj]

I should probably mention that I saw dose-response curves for TA-65 that showed a roughly proportional increase in TA-6 levels up to 20 capsules a day. Then the curve plateaued, falling off at still higher doses. It was also mentioned at the time that Bill Andrews was taking 20 TA-65 capsules a day back in 2011.

 

did it work? he does look a few years younger than his twin brother in the doc below, maybe 10 years younger Its what the ultra marathon ultra healthy lifestyle taking Product B and TA65 and now TAM818 can get you at this point, at the most.

 

 

[marcobjj]

The reason that critically short telomeres are important is the cell either self-destructs or becomes senescent when the shortest telomere on any of its chromosomes becomes critically short, and TA-65 (and presumably, TAM-818) are selectively used by cells to lengthen their shortest telomere or telomeres. That's why weak telomerase activators like TA-65 can play a role out of all proportion to their telomerase induction properties in salvaging failing cells.

 

 

what if TAM or perhaps a slightly stronger telomerase activator could keep your median telomere length just slightly above senescence, like say 6kb pairs. Someone could potentially live decades beyond the maximum human lifespan with the phenotype of a 60 or 70 year old? Whereas full reversal of telomere attrition would mean full reversal of phenotype to that of a young adult.

[Robert Seitz]

I'm thinking that it would take a telomerase activator, or telomerase activator combination or protocol, exactly 6.25 times as potent as TAM 818 to bring telomerase activation up to the level necessary (16 X 6.25 = 100 on Bill Andrews' Hela scale) for perpetual telomere length maintenance st 60 or 70 or at any other age. If we could only make it to 96 on Dr. Andrews' Hela (Helen Lacks) scale, then your telomere lengths would continue to shorten as you grew older at the snail's pace of (100 - 96)/100 = 0.04 (1/25th) times as fast as they do now. If telomere technology could reach 104 on Dr. Andrew's Hela scale, then we our telomeres would grow longer as we grew older by 1/25th of a year per year.

Dr. Andrews, I think, believes that his hTert gene therapy program, which is presumably currently getting underway in Bioviva's Fiji Islands clinic, will reverse telomere shortening by a factor of 3000 on his Hela scale, or by 30 years of telomere age for every year of chronological age. Assuming a 33-base-pair per year loss in median telomere length per year in untreated middle age adults (as in "us"), his program should add about 1,000 base pairs a year not just in leukocyte median telomere lengths but in every cell in our bodies.

There are now other ways to lengthen telomeres, I think.

[YOLF]

1. Of course, Dr. Park was TA-65 supplier. It all began when I won a 30-capsule bottle of TA-65 in a drawing that he held in August, 1011.

2. The reason that critically short telomeres are important is the cell either self-destructs or becomes senescent when the shortest telomere on any of its chromosomes becomes critically short, and TA-65 (and presumably, TAM-818) are selectively used by cells to lengthen their shortest telomere or telomeres. That's why weak telomerase activators like TA-65 can play a role out of all proportion to their telomerase induction properties in salvaging failing cells.

3. I should probably mention that I saw dose-response curves for TA-65 that showed a roughly proportional increase in TA-6 levels up to 20 capsules a day. Then the curve plateaued, falling off at still higher doses. It was also mentioned at the time that Bill Andrews was taking 20 TA-65 capsules a day back in 2011.

1. Wow

 

2.I'm thinking that Astragaloside IV and TA65 are both different in their mechanisms and both should be taken. Have you seen any studies testing this? My rationale is that shorter telomeres are going to whip around more because there is less resistance holding them back, this leads to faster activity, so a drug that lengthens critically short telomeres is likely to increase the activity of Telo Reverse Transcriptase, CST-complex proteins, or nonsense mediated decay factors. If Astragaloside IV does not have preference, then it's action is more likely one of activating Shelterin or Terra as doing so would lengthen all telomeres. This may have been the initial reasoning behind deciding to go with TA65 as opposed to using Astragaloside IV (AIV). Perhaps TAM is just a micronized version of Astragaloside IV? Do we know that it is a different molecule than AIV or TA65? Perhaps it is micronized AIV combined with Apigenin or some such thing to kill off cells that might become pathogenic due to broad spectrum activity? TA65 hasn't dropped in price since the release of this, it would make sense that they are intended to be taken together, or I'm assuming such a discovery will eventually be published... $16,800/yr/client, that's some bank! It's starting to make Nicotinamide Riboside look inexpensive at ~$480/yr.

 

3. Is that the 5mg capsules? Or a larger dose? I suppose if one isn't using a highly micronized cycloastragenol that they could still achieve those results with even higher dosing?

[YOLF]

 

The reason that critically short telomeres are important is the cell either self-destructs or becomes senescent when the shortest telomere on any of its chromosomes becomes critically short, and TA-65 (and presumably, TAM-818) are selectively used by cells to lengthen their shortest telomere or telomeres. That's why weak telomerase activators like TA-65 can play a role out of all proportion to their telomerase induction properties in salvaging failing cells.

 

 

what if TAM or perhaps a slightly stronger telomerase activator could keep your median telomere length just slightly above senescence, like say 6kb pairs. Someone could potentially live decades beyond the maximum human lifespan with the phenotype of a 60 or 70 year old? Whereas full reversal of telomere attrition would mean full reversal of phenotype to that of a young adult.

 

For my money, I'd wait it out with cryonics. I don't think at this point that I could come to terms with being 60-70 for decades... It'll be terrible enough if I have to go through that torture even once...

[Robert Seitz]

To start with your last question first, I didn't notice any particular degradation going from 40 to 60 or to 40 to 70. And the great thing about it was that I could retire! Hurrah! For me, life began at 63. I probably couldn't have jumped as high at 63 as I could at 40, but I don't remember any other differences. But I don't think you have the chance of a snowball in July of hovering at 60 or 70 for decades. It looks to me as though three approaches to the amelioration of aging stand out: halting aging in our early twenties at the end of our growth and development phase, slowing the rate of aging, a la calorie restriction, by steadily increasing degrees, or reversing aging per the SENS approach. Right now, it looks to me as though the money and the motivation favor the SENS approach: the reversal of aging. At 88, I guess I'd prefer to be physiologically 28, although on a daily basis, it isn't a big deal.

I hope that incremental healthspan-deterioration may be upon us now with senolytics, telomerase activation, thymic regeneration, improving calorie restriction mimetics, and other interventions within reach. If we can reverse our physiological age by more than one year per year... exceed escape velocity,,, then we're on our way toward rejuvenation.

I was taking the 5 mg. capsules of TA-65, so the dose-response plateau at  20 capsules would have been 100 mg. of TA-65.

I haven't seen any studies regarding Astrogaloside IV.

Based upon

[Robert Seitz]

I've located my three Life Length reports. They're in PDF format. The summary of the results in first report, based upon my May, 2012, telomere length assay, was:
Chronological age (years):  82.8
Estimated biological age (years):  66.1
Percentage of short telomeres (<3Kb):  23.03
Median telomere length:  5.363

In November, 2014, after taking four 5-mg. capsules of TA-65 a day for 2.5 years, Life Length tested my telomere length distribution again. By this time, Life Length had completely reworked their telomere measurement report format, and maybe, their method of measuring telomere lengths. Dr. Park got Life Length to rerun my May, 2012, test results, and this time, my 2012 median telomere length, at 7.0 Kb pairs, is so low, it falls below the bottom axis of the chart. My estimated biological age was now 86.2 years. (The test would have been taken when I was 82.8 years old.)  My percentage of short telomeres, taken now as the 20th percentile of telomere lengths, was now 4 Kb pairs, and my percentage of short telomeres was 13.2%. My telomere length distribution faded out at 25,000 base pairs.

The results for my November, 2014, telomere length test show my median telomere length having leaped by 2,500 base pairs to 9,500 base pairs. That's still so low that it's down at around the 8th percentile for 85-year-olds. My estimated biological age was still 86.2, but now I was 85.3. In other words, my biological age remained frozen while my chronological age increased 2.5 years. My 20th-percentile level for short telomeres had risen to 5 Kb, and my percentage of short telomeres was, as I remember it, 8.5% My telomere length distribution now faded out at 36,000 base pairs.

Overall, there was about a 40% improvement in my median telomere length, my maximum telomere length, and my percentage of short telomeres.

Was I doing anything else that might have accounted for this quantum leap in telomere lengths between May, 2012, and November, 2014? Maybe. I was taking Life Extension tocotrienols, carbon 60 in olive oil, intemittently, and milkthistle sometimes. Other than that, I can't think of anything.

A new FedEx mailing envelope is on its way to our house. As soon as it arrives, I'll have my telomere lengths tested again by Life Length. (I have't taken TA-65 since I ran out in December, 2016.)

To be continued.

 

[Moondancer]

This means you took perhaps $10,000 worth of TA65 over the course of 2,5 years (depending on how many mg you took)? Well God almighty it better should work for such amounts of money spent. Where is the research to back up those miraculous TA-65 claims? I haven't seen it yet but perhaps I missed out on something?

Edited by Moondancer, 29 November 2017 - 05:28 PM.

[Telo]

This means you took perhaps $10,000 worth of TA65 over the course of 2,5 years (depending on how many mg you took)? Well God almighty it better should work for such amounts of money spent. Where is the research to back up those miraculous TA-65 claims? I haven't seen it yet but perhaps I missed out on something?

 

There are these two clinical trials

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5178008/

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3045570/

[marcobjj]

I'm thinking that it would take a telomerase activator, or telomerase activator combination or protocol, exactly 6.25 times as potent as TAM 818 to bring telomerase activation up to the level necessary (16 X 6.25 = 100 on Bill Andrews' Hela scale) for perpetual telomere length maintenance st 60 or 70 or at any other age. If we could only make it to 96 on Dr. Andrews' Hela (Helen Lacks) scale, then your telomere lengths would continue to shorten as you grew older at the snail's pace of (100 - 96)/100 = 0.04 (1/25th) times as fast as they do now. If telomere technology could reach 104 on Dr. Andrew's Hela scale, then we our telomeres would grow longer as we grew older by 1/25th of a year per year.


There are now other ways to lengthen telomeres, I think.

 

why is he measuring against the HeLa scale? aren't those cells supposed to have turnover rate faster than regular human cells by over 10 fold? And therefore their attrition rates also be over 10 faster, thus they'd need over 10 times the amount of telomerase a regular cell does to reverse telomere attrition.

 

 

 

Dr. Andrews, I think, believes that his hTert gene therapy program, which is presumably currently getting underway in Bioviva's Fiji Islands clinic, will reverse telomere shortening by a factor of 3000 on his Hela scale, or by 30 years of telomere age for every year of chronological age. Assuming a 33-base-pair per year loss in median telomere length per year in untreated middle age adults (as in "us"), his program should add about 1,000 base pairs a year not just in leukocyte median telomere lengths but in every cell in our bodies.

 

 

that's pretty cool, do you have a source for his claim of factor 3000 on the HeLa scale?

Edited by marcobjj, 30 November 2017 - 02:51 AM.

[YOLF]

I've located my three Life Length reports. They're in PDF format. The summary of the results in first report, based upon my May, 2012, telomere length assay, was:
Chronological age (years):  82.8
Estimated biological age (years):  66.1
Percentage of short telomeres (<3Kb):  23.03
Median telomere length:  5.363

In November, 2014, after taking four 5-mg. capsules of TA-65 a day for 2.5 years, Life Length tested my telomere length distribution again. By this time, Life Length had completely reworked their telomere measurement report format, and maybe, their method of measuring telomere lengths. Dr. Park got Life Length to rerun my May, 2012, test results, and this time, my 2012 median telomere length, at 7.0 Kb pairs, is so low, it falls below the bottom axis of the chart. My estimated biological age was now 86.2 years. (The test would have been taken when I was 82.8 years old.)  My percentage of short telomeres, taken now as the 20th percentile of telomere lengths, was now 4 Kb pairs, and my percentage of short telomeres was 13.2%. My telomere length distribution faded out at 25,000 base pairs.

The results for my November, 2014, telomere length test show my median telomere length having leaped by 2,500 base pairs to 9,500 base pairs. That's still so low that it's down at around the 8th percentile for 85-year-olds. My estimated biological age was still 86.2, but now I was 85.3. In other words, my biological age remained frozen while my chronological age increased 2.5 years. My 20th-percentile level for short telomeres had risen to 5 Kb, and my percentage of short telomeres was, as I remember it, 8.5% My telomere length distribution now faded out at 36,000 base pairs.

Overall, there was about a 40% improvement in my median telomere length, my maximum telomere length, and my percentage of short telomeres.

Was I doing anything else that might have accounted for this quantum leap in telomere lengths between May, 2012, and November, 2014? Maybe. I was taking Life Extension tocotrienols, carbon 60 in olive oil, intemittently, and milkthistle sometimes. Other than that, I can't think of anything.

A new FedEx mailing envelope is on its way to our house. As soon as it arrives, I'll have my telomere lengths tested again by Life Length. (I have't taken TA-65 since I ran out in December, 2016.)

To be continued.

 

Milk thistle has been shown to extend telomeres and it used to given to expand the window or procreation for women, which it is apparently very successful at. It could be that milk thistle, silymarin or siliphos (actives in order of apparent potency) is a better at extending telomeres than TA65 or you're getting some great synergy with it. 

 

I think you should do the following tests in 3-6 month intervals:

20mg TA65

100mg of Astragaloside IV and 100mg apigenin

Silymarin 80%

20mg TA65 + Silymarin 80%

20mg TA65 + Siliphos

 If doses aren't mentioned, the usual potency should suffice, though there are cases where doses of things that are too high can do the opposite, so negative results would be good in this case and just mean that we have to adjust doses appropriately.

We could do a fundraiser if the self testing funds aren't sufficient and I'll take part in the trial too along with other users of these molecules. We need to generate more quality data as a community imo.

 

As it stands, I'm pretty sure you already qualify. Bad Monkey Botanicals has some Astragaloside IV options in powder and you can get acid resistant capsules on amazon from PurecapsUSA or Capsuleline with no colorants. I don't trust the other capsule or chinese brands, I find they use all sorts of capsule coloring excipients in China that aren't on the label and can limit or eliminate your results. Only clear capsules, or some white capsules w/o other colors added (from US companies who are required by law to include excipients on the label) to soften the color should be used. Vitacost has the Milk thistle extracts

 

Good thing I went to great lengths to cure my ragweed/asterid allergy! I wonder what mechanism Milk Thistle uses to extend telomeres. It also raises Estrogens and I feel like it raises T when I take it, so it's MoA could have something to do with something in the GnRH cascade! Exciting!

Edited by YOLF, 30 November 2017 - 04:18 AM.

[YOLF]

 

I'm thinking that it would take a telomerase activator, or telomerase activator combination or protocol, exactly 6.25 times as potent as TAM 818 to bring telomerase activation up to the level necessary (16 X 6.25 = 100 on Bill Andrews' Hela scale) for perpetual telomere length maintenance st 60 or 70 or at any other age. If we could only make it to 96 on Dr. Andrews' Hela (Helen Lacks) scale, then your telomere lengths would continue to shorten as you grew older at the snail's pace of (100 - 96)/100 = 0.04 (1/25th) times as fast as they do now. If telomere technology could reach 104 on Dr. Andrew's Hela scale, then we our telomeres would grow longer as we grew older by 1/25th of a year per year.


There are now other ways to lengthen telomeres, I think.

 

why is he measuring against the HeLa scale? aren't those cells supposed to have turnover rate faster than regular human cells by over 10 fold? And therefore their attrition rates also be over 10 faster, thus they'd need over 10 times the amount of telomerase a regular cell does to reverse telomere attrition.

 

 

 

Dr. Andrews, I think, believes that his hTert gene therapy program, which is presumably currently getting underway in Bioviva's Fiji Islands clinic, will reverse telomere shortening by a factor of 3000 on his Hela scale, or by 30 years of telomere age for every year of chronological age. Assuming a 33-base-pair per year loss in median telomere length per year in untreated middle age adults (as in "us"), his program should add about 1,000 base pairs a year not just in leukocyte median telomere lengths but in every cell in our bodies.

 

 

that's pretty cool, do you have a source for his claim of factor 3000 on the HeLa scale?

 

HeLa is a standard used in science as they were the first immortal stem cell line. It's a cancer stem cell, but they can now immortalize other stem cell lines easily enough and haven't modified the standard tmk.

[marcobjj]

 

 

 

Good thing I went to great lengths to cure my ragweed/asterid allergy! I wonder what mechanism Milk Thistle uses to extend telomeres. It also raises Estrogens and I feel like it raises T when I take it, so it's MoA could have something to do with something in the GnRH cascade! Exciting!

 

 

Silymarin is a mild HTert / Telomerase activator.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20838231

[marcobjj]

 

 

I'm thinking that it would take a telomerase activator, or telomerase activator combination or protocol, exactly 6.25 times as potent as TAM 818 to bring telomerase activation up to the level necessary (16 X 6.25 = 100 on Bill Andrews' Hela scale) for perpetual telomere length maintenance st 60 or 70 or at any other age. If we could only make it to 96 on Dr. Andrews' Hela (Helen Lacks) scale, then your telomere lengths would continue to shorten as you grew older at the snail's pace of (100 - 96)/100 = 0.04 (1/25th) times as fast as they do now. If telomere technology could reach 104 on Dr. Andrew's Hela scale, then we our telomeres would grow longer as we grew older by 1/25th of a year per year.


There are now other ways to lengthen telomeres, I think.

 

why is he measuring against the HeLa scale? aren't those cells supposed to have turnover rate faster than regular human cells by over 10 fold? And therefore their attrition rates also be over 10 faster, thus they'd need over 10 times the amount of telomerase a regular cell does to reverse telomere attrition.

 

 

 

Dr. Andrews, I think, believes that his hTert gene therapy program, which is presumably currently getting underway in Bioviva's Fiji Islands clinic, will reverse telomere shortening by a factor of 3000 on his Hela scale, or by 30 years of telomere age for every year of chronological age. Assuming a 33-base-pair per year loss in median telomere length per year in untreated middle age adults (as in "us"), his program should add about 1,000 base pairs a year not just in leukocyte median telomere lengths but in every cell in our bodies.

 

 

that's pretty cool, do you have a source for his claim of factor 3000 on the HeLa scale?

 

HeLa is a standard used in science as they were the first immortal stem cell line. It's a cancer stem cell, but they can now immortalize other stem cell lines easily enough and haven't modified the standard tmk.

 

 

I understand that. It's just that the mandatory 100 on the HeLa scale is kind of misleading due to their higher turnover and attrition rates. You'd think a 10 on the HeLa scale be enough to at least halt attrition on normal human cells

[YOLF]

 

 

 

 

Good thing I went to great lengths to cure my ragweed/asterid allergy! I wonder what mechanism Milk Thistle uses to extend telomeres. It also raises Estrogens and I feel like it raises T when I take it, so it's MoA could have something to do with something in the GnRH cascade! Exciting!

 

 

Silymarin is a mild HTert / Telomerase activator.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20838231

 

 

 

...Silymarin increased telomerase activity 3-fold...

Perhaps not that mild? Did they give more information in the full paper? 

 

Found a patent that discusses tests comparing milk thistle to C0057684, which I'm thinking is either TA65 or AIV. It was the first discovery of a telomerase activator. But the 78% spray dried and 75% crude extracts of milk thistle had been found to extend telomeres 2.5 times less than C0057684. Product B was describes as increasing average telo length by .14kb in 4 months, though it contained a cocktail of activators and shorteners and shows positive growth. I imagine these formulations could be further improved. The telo lab was spectracell in 2012. What's their history like? Does anyone know what percent of HeLa TA65 or cycloastragenol can achieve?

[YOLF]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. Andrews, I think, believes that his hTert gene therapy program, which is presumably currently getting underway in Bioviva's Fiji Islands clinic, will reverse telomere shortening by a factor of 3000 on his Hela scale, or by 30 years of telomere age for every year of chronological age. Assuming a 33-base-pair per year loss in median telomere length per year in untreated middle age adults (as in "us"), his program should add about 1,000 base pairs a year not just in leukocyte median telomere lengths but in every cell in our bodies.

 

 

that's pretty cool, do you have a source for his claim of factor 3000 on the HeLa scale?

 

HeLa is a standard used in science as they were the first immortal stem cell line. It's a cancer stem cell, but they can now immortalize other stem cell lines easily enough and haven't modified the standard tmk.

 

 

I understand that. It's just that the mandatory 100 on the HeLa scale is kind of misleading due to their higher turnover and attrition rates. You'd think a 10 on the HeLa scale be enough to at least halt attrition on normal human cells

 

Well, Robert's median telo lengths stayed the same, and it is very likely that the average was raised over a 2.5 year span as well. If only we could compare Product B to others. However, product B's success shows that more could potentially be done with complexes of stronger extracts if their methodology is useful. It looks as though it could be improved quite a bit.

[YOLF]

...

The names of the Yamanaka factors are: Oct4, Sox2, Klf4, and c-Myc. I think these four factors were identified for study because they're prominent in zygotes. 

...

Interesting how these work. It looks pretty straight forward. I'm starting to see how all of these actives work. Excitement continues!

[Robert Seitz]

Actually, Moondancer, I paid closer to $20,000 over the 2.5-year period(:-)) starting in 2011, At that time, TA-65 had strong support from several M. D.'s who were part of the first early trial in 2007. It seemed to me then, and still seems to me now that TA-65 patients were deriving tested benefits, in the form of monotonically declining percetages of short telomeres, out of proportion to the scanty telomerase activation powers ot TA-65. The only alternative was what I had tried earlier in the summer: taking large doses of astragalus powder, together with CrackAging's cycloastrogenol. TA-65 was't the only game in town but it was the best documented game in town. In August, 2011, unlike TA-65, dosing with cycloastrogenol was just beginning, with no before and after telomere length testing, TA-65's Patton Protocol had several years of administration and testing experience behind it. Winning Dr. Park's lottery was enough to convince me to go with the gold standard.

Tommie and I are living on retirement checks from our jobs. We're a long way from rich, but we could afford TA-65 then, if only just.

 

As I mentioned above, when I got my unexpected median telomere length reports from Life Length in early 2015, I contacted Dr. Park to ask how it could be possible that 2.5 years of taking TA-65 could lead to such a dramatic increase in telomere length. Below is his response, published in February, 2015:

"Bob Seitz is 85-years young and getting younger".

This contains my 2012 and 2014 telomere histograms.

I think the two photos of me shown above differ only in lighting. The second picture was taken in more flattering lighting conditions than the first picture.

When I got my Life Length results, shown in Dr. Park's hyperlinked announcement above, I considered posting them on Longecity, but since my results were so over the top, I decided to wait and see if they would be confirmed by taking TA-65 for another year or two and seeing whether my median telomere length would continue to dramatically increase. I didn't expect it to rise as much over the next 2.5 years as it did in the first 2.5 years. My first reading, in 2012, had nowhere to go but up. The 50th-%tile median telomere length for 85-year-olds on the May, 2012, chart is about 11,000 base-pairs. The 1st-%tile median telomere length for 85-year-olds on the May, 2012, chart is about 8,500 base-pairs. My reading of 7,000 base-pairs must have been a world's record for the shortest median telomere length in my age bracket.

Sitting here tonight thinking about Life Length's retesting or re-evaluating in 2014 my 2012 test results, I'm wondering if something went wrong in this re-evaluation process, leading to an absurdly low reading for my 2012 median telomere length.

Another mystery is the very length of these telomeres. Usually, median leukocyte telomere lengths in middle age are in the 5,000 to 6,000 base'pair range. (In my original 2012 telomere length report, issued in 2012, my median telomere length was 5,363 base pairs.)

I had hoped that my next median telomere reading, scheduled for May, 2017, would put me at 11,000 to 12,000 base pairs, in the 50th to 60th %tile. But we'll see. Yesterday, I got a copy of an email addressed to Dr. Park from Life Length, checking to make sure that my kit hasn't expired. (It hasn't.) Life Length is sending me a UPS Airway Bill. It should arrive within a day or two. I'll try to get my blood draw done as soon as I can, and airmailed to Life Length early next week. Then within a few weeks, we ought to know what's going on with my telomeres. (Of course, it doesn't help that there's been a year's hiatus between the time I ran out of TA-65 last December and the date next week when I get my blood drawn.)

So what was happening to me aging-wise during the 2.5 years from 2012 to 2014, and during the two years from 2014 to 2016?

I'm going to try to avoid jumping to wishful conclusions. In 2011, a few weeks after starting TA-65, I discovered that I could read without glasses. I was elated. Here was an immediate benefit from taking TA-65. I mentioned it to Dr. Park, who published it on his website. Then I discovered that I could have read without glasses all along. I hadn't tried to read without reading glasses in years, and I didn't know that I could do it. It had nothing to do with TA-65. I was embarrassed. I'm a physicist.  The last thing I or we want is to hype what's happening.

That being said, it seems as though I aged very little from the summer of 2011 to the spring of 2017, and it seems as though I've aged much faster since that time... i. e., since a few months after I quit taking TA-65.

With regard to the 3,000% increase in telomerase activity, in one of his presentations (I believe it was in an interview with Dr. Park) about his and Liz Parrish' upcoming Fiji Island clinic, Dr. Andrews stated about a year ago that there are no ways to lengthen telomeres today (or at least a year ago), and that his new hTert gene therapy would exceed the level of telomerase required to maintain telomere lengths (100 on his 0 to 100 scale) by a factor of 30. I took the liberty of expressing that as a 3,000% level of telomerase activity.

This may be the interview in question: Bill Andrews on isolating new telomerase activators and ... - YouTube

To be continued.

[Robert Seitz]

Here's a working link to "Bob Seitz is 85-years young and getting younger". http://www.rechargeb...unger/#comments

[YOLF]

 

 

 

 

that's pretty cool, do you have a source for his claim of factor 3000 on the HeLa scale?

 

HeLa is a standard used in science as they were the first immortal stem cell line. It's a cancer stem cell, but they can now immortalize other stem cell lines easily enough and haven't modified the standard tmk.

 

 

I understand that. It's just that the mandatory 100 on the HeLa scale is kind of misleading due to their higher turnover and attrition rates. You'd think a 10 on the HeLa scale be enough to at least halt attrition on normal human cells

 

Well, Robert's median telo lengths stayed the same, and it is very likely that the average was raised over a 2.5 year span as well. If only we could compare Product B to others. However, product B's success shows that more could potentially be done with complexes of stronger extracts if their methodology is useful. It looks as though it could be improved quite a bit.

 

On second thought, perhaps HeLa isn't enough. How long are HeLA telomeres compared to embryo telomeres? If HeLA are only immortalized at a shorter length, then it would be insufficient to reach the length that we need to achieve more optimal youth. Telos that are too long could also be problematic as rodents have very long telomeres but get cancers very quickly, presumably due to not being able arrest replication by means of telomere shortening quickly enough, which is why antioxidants such as resveratrol IGF1 insufficiency, and calorie restriction seem to help them so much, but not us. I imagine that if we do manage to accelerate telomere building beyond sustainability that calorie restriction, and such will be very important to maintaining short enough, but not too short telomeres to maintain the efficacy of our innate immune system. So it's looking easy, but dangerous and possibly best for those on social security as their income is always consistent. Unfortunately, all of these major effector supplements are very expensive and likely exceed the average retirement income resulting in a damned if you do (but at least you'll stay young longer), damned if you don't scenario...So it better be strong enough to take in bursts and you better store enough antiproliferative agents to normalize telomere lengths...

[YOLF]

Here's a working link to "Bob Seitz is 85-years young and getting younger". http://www.rechargeb...unger/#comments

What did you look like when you were younger? It's hard to look at old people and know what they looked like.

[YOLF]

How can order a telo test w/o paying a doctor? I imagine the appointment isn't covered by any kind of insurance, so I'd rather cut out all the middlemen and buy more supplements...

[marcobjj]

 

 

On second thought, perhaps HeLa isn't enough. How long are HeLA telomeres compared to embryo telomeres? If HeLA are only immortalized at a shorter length, then it would be insufficient to reach the length that we need to achieve more optimal youth. Telos that are too long could also be problematic as rodents have very long telomeres but get cancers very quickly, presumably due to not being able arrest replication by means of telomere shortening quickly enough, which is why antioxidants such as resveratrol IGF1 insufficiency, and calorie restriction seem to help them so much, but not us. I imagine that if we do manage to accelerate telomere building beyond sustainability that calorie restriction, and such will be very important to maintaining short enough, but not too short telomeres to maintain the efficacy of our innate immune system. So it's looking easy, but dangerous and possibly best for those on social security as their income is always consistent. Unfortunately, all of these major effector supplements are very expensive and likely exceed the average retirement income resulting in a damned if you do (but at least you'll stay young longer), damned if you don't scenario...So it better be strong enough to take in bursts and you better store enough antiproliferative agents to normalize telomere lengths...

 

there has got to be some sort of self limiting process, otherwise telomerase activation would eventually be a suicide mechanism given enough time. HeLa has been alive since 1951 and has reportedly produced over 20 tons of cultured tissue.

[marcobjj]

 

 

 Does anyone know what percent of HeLa TA65 or cycloastragenol can achieve?

 

 

I can't source it, but years ago I read 6% HeLa for Cycloastragenol.

[Robert Seitz]

An update: I'm still waiting for the UPS Airway Bill to arrive from Life Length. It seems as though it ought to be here by now.

[recon]

An update: I'm still waiting for the UPS Airway Bill to arrive from Life Length. It seems as though it ought to be here by now.

Have you taken NR as a supplement? I thought I saw someone with Bob in his name early in the NR threads but he disappeared soon after and I’m wondering about his progress.

[marcobjj]

They've now released Defytimer in capsule form:

 

bhttp://defytimer.com...ement-defytime/