28 replies to this topic

[Galaxyshock]

Escitalopram has been pretty much completely useless med for me. I don't experience any side effects either, but when I tried to stop it cold turkey I started feeling bad and had some wierd crying spells. Probably should taper off if I want to get off it.

 

Anyway, since adding 1/4 teaspoon of Panax Ginseng standardized to 28% ginsenosides I feel something really happening. A real eye-opener, colors become more vivid, mood is great, anhedonia lifts and emotions are accessed in healthy manner. Among a broad range of other effects, Ginseng is 5-HT2A agonist and I'm assuming that's where the magic happens. Ginseng alone is anti-depressive but not to such a great extent as with SSRI. So I'm going to continue with this.

 

There's one case report of a woman with treatment-resistant depression who was treated with a combination of an SSRI with Ginseng. Unfortunately the abstract doesn't reveal what the results were.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27405914

 

I've also read some bipolar patients going hypomanic when combining Ginseng and other herbs with their antidepressants so proceed with caution.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 09 April 2017 - 04:21 PM.

[Finn]

Copy that DOI shown on that Pubmed page to to http://sci-hub.cc/ . Whole article is available there.

Edited by Finn, 09 April 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[william7]

Do you have access to medical marijuana in Finland? Lot of people in the US are experimenting with cannabidiol (CBD) for depression and other medical conditions. Here's an article that discusses CBD over antidepressants. https://www.solcbd.c...antidepressants

 

 

 

[gamesguru]

when combined with an ssri ginseng can, according to the MayoClinic, result in some pretty serious conditions.  surely death is nothing to joke about.   combining it with an ssri can only really be recommended under the guidance of a professional..

 

and if you have non-unipolar depression, not to be recommended at all mate.  ginseng on its own is often enough to facilitate those speedy thoughts if you catch my drift.  I've been moreso enjoying the sencha and ginkgo lately, so cheers to that

[Galaxyshock]

Whenthe patient began fluvoxamine, she had a minimum of nausea, and slept weil, and experienced a moderate improvement in her depressive symptoms, at a dose of lOO mg b.i.d. On her own, the patient then took 200 mg of Ginsana (a brand of ginseng extract), and within 24 hours reported that she felt symptom-free. After using the ginseng, she appeared to be elated, with a euphoric affect, decreased sleep, decreased appetite, but no symptoms of racing thoughts. There was no evidence of delusions or hallucinations. The diagnosis of hypomania was considered. The patient was instructed to reduce her dose of ginseng to 100mg/day, and was observed closely. Her previous level of euphoria, decreased sleep and appetite, decreased moderately, with the patient stating that she still felt 'better then ever'. The patient remained significantly improved for approximately two weeks, until she experienced a significant loss, then became moderately depressed.

→ source (external link)

 

Yeah, I think it induces hypomania to some extent. An atypical antipsychotic prevents/cancels out the effect, I'm pretty sure it's the 5-HT2A action. I indeed felt pretty euphoric yesterday.

 

Will have to reconsider this.

 

Thanks Finn for the link.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 10 April 2017 - 05:17 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

1/8 teaspoon of Ginseng extract with 20mg Escitalopram and 3 grams of Gotu Kola for mood stabilization seems to work beautifully. The best mood I've felt, my mind is sharp with no racing thoughts or other problems. This combination is great, and I'm currently tapering off Phenibut which should make me feel pretty bad but this overruns those withdrawal symptoms. I mean I notice the usual Phenibut withdrawal symptoms trying to occur there but it's like I'm simply above them.

 

I might consider lowering the dosage of SSRI.

 

I have anti-psychotics and benzos in hand if troubles occur.

 

From the study:

 

During this entire time, the patient continued to take the ginseng on her own. At this time, the patient continues her low-dose venlafaxine and 100 mg Ginsana per day with excellent effects.

 

 

So this could work long-term.

[airplanepeanuts]

Nice, please keep us updated if this continues to work for you.

 

I wonder if the SSRI could be replaced by something, to avoid possible side effects.

[gamesguru]

if bipolars want a similar stack, i could maybe recommend tryptophan, turmeric, and metal supps (Li, Mg, Ca, Zn, Cr)... omega 3s and icariin also might help

[Galaxyshock]

Nice, please keep us updated if this continues to work for you.

 

I wonder if the SSRI could be replaced by something, to avoid possible side effects.

 

I'll keep tracking my results. Only thing that can interfere with this is my Phenibut taper.

 

The patient in the study switched to low-dose SNRI so that's a possibility. If you don't want a pharmaceutical intervention, then Perika brand St. John's Wort should be pretty good because hyperforin works as an SNDRI. I actually took SJW and Ginseng back in 2013 and it worked very well until the effects eventually slowly faded.

 

if bipolars want a similar stack, i could maybe recommend tryptophan, turmeric, and metal supps (Li, Mg, Ca, Zn, Cr)... omega 3s and icariin also might help

 

 

I'd throw in Gotu Kola there, it's great mood stablizer. I mean it's almost impossible to not feel positive when taking it yet you're calm and collected.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 12 April 2017 - 06:01 AM.

[airplanepeanuts]

By the way, is this your first try with Escitalopram? The full effect may take some time, I read, so maybe it's not the ginseng?

 

[Galaxyshock]

I've been taking Escitalopram for well over a year. First 15mg then it was raised to 20mg. Never noticed any effects. Don't know why I kept taking it - hence the cold-turkey attempt to stop. But since I started to feel bad I started using it again and quickly stabilized. Augmenting with Ashwagandha showed some effect, which according to Examine has some evidence. But when I took that 1/4 teaspoon, approximately 250mg, of the Ginseng extract I knew this is the bomb.

 

Unfortunately my Phenibut withdrawal is taking it's toll so I'm not feeling very well at the moment. Ginseng + SSRI is still highly effective, without it I would be probably bedridden according to my previous experiences. The antidepressant effect is strong but starts fading towards evening, may be due to this withdrawal. I'm thinking of taking a second dose of Ginseng late afternoon or so. But yeah, I need to get rid of this Phenibut habit with help of benzos and herbals.

 

Anyone else on SSRI without satisfying results and willing to carefully try Ginseng? I would start with a small dose of something like 15mg ginsenosides and increase from there until you hit the sweet spot.

 

What I can tell though is that this combination is not emotionally dulling - quite the opposite. I had bit of a crying spell when I stumbled upon something and had to deal with painful memories. But yeah, that's how thing should be, so it feels healthy in that regard.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 15 April 2017 - 08:15 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

I'm throwing in a strong extract of Cordyceps - a MAOB-inhibitor, dopamine biosynthesis catalyst, steroidogenesis increaser, prefrontal ampakine and adenosinergic compound. Mushroom of the gods.

[Galaxyshock]

I re-dosed Ginseng at afternoon and it seemed to not only prolong but amplify the effects. I decided to take a third dose at evening just to see what happens - well actually, I wanted to get high - and high I got. Euphoriant and empathogenic qualities were strong, Colors become more vivid and music sounds fantastic, the world is orgasmic. And my mood gets so damn good I've never felt better. No problems with sleep or appetite. Could this end badly? It's possible, but I'm prepared. I have antipsychotics and tranquilizers in hand. I consume superfoods to keep my system running and exercise.

 

I'm not your doctor but Ginseng augmentation to your antidepressant might just be a life-changer. Forget california rocket fuel and other interventions, this is the shit.

[Diamondz]

I'm throwing in a strong extract of Cordyceps - a MAOB-inhibitor, dopamine biosynthesis catalyst, steroidogenesis increaser, prefrontal ampakine and adenosinergic compound. Mushroom of the gods.

 

Yeah, nice post. I bought Reishi mushrooms on the recommendation of my friend that they would make perception more psychedelic. I've had the contained several days now, and took 1 capsule. I'll continue them. I didn't have a negative effect from single dose, so thought about using them for the remainder of supply. NootropicDepot has like 5+ different kinds. I wanted to buy them all. In the meantime, it's research related magic mushroom transactions. :p

[gamesguru]

the only mushroom of the god is at the grocery store, the lowly white button mushroom.  prevents test from degrading to E, improves the immune and auto-immune response independent of its vitamin D, more cholesterol-lowering beta-glucans than oatmeal, and (at 0.5% of your diet) they improve, balance, co-ordination and especially working memory in elderly rats.  they're also widely available, dirt cheap, and unlike cordecyps, they aren't another another damn supplement that tastes like buried fish, no its a tasty food you can work with.  like turmeric, too much of them can make  you sweaty or restless.  i barely get 3 servings a week

 

and you bought reishi to get high with? lmfao sorry chump

[Galaxyshock]

Yeah mushrooms are our friends. Pretty sure I'm getting more bang for the buck with cordyceps than white button though. I don't like cooking and prefer things raw and don't mind supplementing or bad taste. It's alright for me taking 30 capsules of valerian root as night time remedy. Sometimes I even chew herbal capsules to get the taste of the herb even if it's awful. Next fall I wanna eat raw amanita muscaria. Dual extracted Reishi is great and is linked to dramatically increased slow-wave sleep long-term. Doesn't get you high in recreational way, but there's awesome spiritual component to it definitely, not only does it induce vivid teaching lucid dreams but also sort of makes you wake up in the dream of life. I bought half a kilo of the stuff to become immortal but I'm not convinced yet.

 

But let's not get derailed here about the fact that Ginseng augmentation to your pharmaceutical antidepressant is more antidepressive than speedball without side-effects.

[gamesguru]

who mentioned cooking?  i typically eat portabellas raw after a day without water.  however 30 capsules is quite obscene, last time i tried that i lost my stomach and had to tell my boss i fell asleep on the toilet.  about the ginseng, yeah thats like good for you and stuff man, but let me know when you workaround the persecutory/social anxiety.  depression is one of the easier things to treat, in the short term at least.. might want to see how long it works

[Galaxyshock]

Alright I might buy some next time I go to grocery store.

 

The thing is, this seems to treat anhedonic depression, one of the hardest conditions to treat. And also a treatment-resistant case was cured within 24 hours of Ginseng augmentation. This intervention could benefit schizophrenics with dominant negative symptoms. Ginseng also augments antipsychotics and can lead to lowering of the dosage. I think there was some reports that the antidepressive effect of Ginseng lasts something like 6-8 weeks and then slowly fades away. Let's hope that in combination with SSRI the effect remains. Even then, couple months of massively effective treatment can lead to positive changes.

[gamesguru]

i was joking about eating portabellas dry.  the internet is just too easy a place to act tough.  but most supplements have cumulative effects that persist, yeah, about 8 weeks.

 

however you even hinted at it earlier that the ginseng isn't so hot for borderline/bipolar features, and some people have that alongside negative schizophrenia.  so unless they take the ginseng with, like, a potent sodium channel blocker (which i don't know of one) they're going apeshite beserk within 72ish hours, probably sooner.  therefore the hell with ginseng man....... i looked up at the Rennaisance center and it was doing the funky giraffe, i put on the radio and it was spitting game.  everybody was kung fu fighting, somebody went under a duck, a deputy stopped me for driving on the wrong side of the road and remarked that he hadn't seen anything too concerning that morning.  so i plopped my sawed off AK in his pansy ass mouth and asked if he'd ever taken it in the pooper

 

there's a lot of other supps that were (*cough* more thoroughly) studied against anhedonia, tribulus and resveratrol to name a few, and on the grounds of your placebo effect, i see no reason for supposing their inferiority to ginseng

Edited by gamesguru, 24 April 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

Had to look up the finnish name for white button mushroom and yeah I've been consuming them before in salads and pizza lol. Anyways, I bought some from grocery store, ate some raw and some with salmon. Taste alright without any preparing.

 

Usually schizos are on some maintenance dose of anti-psychotics so Ginseng augmentation should be alright. Tribulus and resveratrol thoroughly studied huh, let me guess, some anti-depressant-like effect on mice in forced swimming test. You don't understand anhedonia - placebo effect requires activation of nucleus accumbens and anticipation of positive effect - something anhedonics lack. Therefore anhedonics are somewhat immune to placebo. When I was severely anhedonic I tried everything including resveratrol and tribulus without any effect on hedonic tone. Perhaps a huge dose of tribulus whole herb could help a little bit because it contains harmala alkaloids if I remember correctly.

[gamesguru]

better than a huge dose of phenibut?

and i was joking aboUT eating them raw. but it doesn't matter. you should see if the ones at your store have vitamin d. I just like to kill two birds that way cause I rarely catch any rays

and interesting, I must not have real bad anhedonia because I can still trick myself into the placebo

[Junipersun]

Interesting stuff. Ginseng seems to have some NE/DA action, which makes it a good agumentation strategy for ssris (which we know downregulates dopamine downstream). Not surprisingly, Ginseng is shown to be effective in treating ADHD (https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3659525/). This could correct some of the issues with SSRIs (Apathy, emotional blunting, sexual dysfunction). If I were on SSRIs, I'd give it a try.

[gamesguru]

specifically it's a d2 agonist.  the thing with dopamine, well all neurotransmitters really, and the problem with going just by the mechanism as it appears on paper is that two agonists may in practice elicit very different internal cascades.  abilify, LSD, ketamine and PCP are all D2 agonists.  ginseng is as well, and believe it or not but the cascade which it elicits more closely resembles that of ketamine than of abilify (which is the one that's antipsychotic, anti-agitation, etc etc).  a lot of the response is determined by genetics, with mutations on co-localized receptors playing a major role

[Diamondz]

I don't want to think about any polymorphic mutations addressing receptors. Although, I find the science of knock-out mice and deducing mechanism in pharmacology interesting. It's a bit boring when researchers spend time on commercial drugs in the depressant and anti-psychotic field. It's logical to understand their mechanism, but they just try and support the drug, write about it's new mechanism, or some random poly-pharmacy use.

 

Really wouldn't recommend their use. If I was a psychiatrist with normal-psychotic patents, I'd just drug them with hypnotics for acute measures and maintain with environmental intervention.

 

I'm very concerned you have access to anti-psychotic agents if you're on the patient side. I used to carry around anzolytics and hypnotics for personal use if I had negative experience from drug use, but I never used them. I just wanted a hypnotic that would induce sleep within a few minutes if I were at home and in bed.

[Junipersun]

specifically it's a d2 agonist.  the thing with dopamine, well all neurotransmitters really, and the problem with going just by the mechanism as it appears on paper is that two agonists may in practice elicit very different internal cascades.  abilify, LSD, ketamine and PCP are all D2 agonists.  ginseng is as well, and believe it or not but the cascade which it elicits more closely resembles that of ketamine than of abilify (which is the one that's antipsychotic, anti-agitation, etc etc).  a lot of the response is determined by genetics, with mutations on co-localized receptors playing a major role

 

How do you know it's a d2 agonist? I didn't find any study supporting this claim.

[gamesguru]

super secret ninja club, unicorn dreams, scrolls from the Colombian sun goddess, etc etc

 

Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4213848/

Furthermore, the behavioral effect was blocked by a selective DA D2 receptor (D2R) antagonist (eticlopride) but not by a selective DA D1 receptor (D1R) antagonist (SCH23390).

Edited by gamesguru, 01 May 2017 - 11:21 PM.

[Junipersun]

super secret ninja club, unicorn dreams, scrolls from the Colombian sun goddess, etc etc

 

Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4213848/

Furthermore, the behavioral effect was blocked by a selective DA D2 receptor (D2R) antagonist (eticlopride) but not by a selective DA D1 receptor (D1R) antagonist (SCH23390).

 

Just because its effect is blocked by a DA-antagonist, doesn't mean its mechanism of action is DA-agonism. It could also be a straight reuptake inhibitor.

[airplanepeanuts]

 

 

I'd throw in Gotu Kola there, it's great mood stablizer. I mean it's almost impossible to not feel positive when taking it yet you're calm and collected.

Hi Galaxyshock,

 

do you notice the anti testosterone effect of Gotu Kola that the herb allegedly has? (Mentioned in the Examine article)

[noos]

Any update on this Galaxyshock?