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Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics

nad nad+ c60 mito fission fusion stearic acid mtdna methylene blue

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#271 RWhigham

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 07:53 PM

Experiment #1  June 5, 2017

Day 1 promoting fission & autophagy, at 8 AM I took
  NAD+ promoter   Nicotinamide 2 g  & ribose 5 g
  NAD+ promoter   Niagen NR 200 mg
  NAD+ promoter   Pomegranate (1g  Ellagic acid)
  NAD+ promoter   Dynveo_GSC 200 mg (grape seed extract)

Re: Grape Seed Extract

Only the OPC Grape Seed Extract from Dynveo® is intended as a NAD+ promoter. Other grape seed extracts are referred to on the web as antioxidants.

 

Proanthocyanidins (PACS) in the OPC Grape Seed Extract from Dynveo  increased NAD+ metabolism and SIRT1 expression and activity in a dose-dependent manner in healthy rats : we report that PACs significantly increased the hepatic nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) content in a dose-dependent manner by specifically modulating the hepatic concentrations of the major NAD+ precursors as well as the mRNA levels of the genes that encode the enzymes involved in the cellular metabolism of NAD+. Notably, Sirtuin 1 (Sirt1) gene expression was also significantly up-regulated in a dose-response pattern.

 

LifeIsBall may have accidentally increased fission & autophagy with GSE: I took GSE for two days and it gave me anemia symptoms. I felt like entire crap during this time. GSE can reduce iron absorption from food. Grape Seed Extract and Green Tea can cause Anemia  This would not cause instantaneous anemia.

 

In the NR personal experience thread after increasing NR to 500 mg/day Oakman post #993  became concerned about soreness in his chest. He reduced the NR to 250 mg, and to maintain NAD+ he added Dynveo OPC Grape Seed Extract 200 mg, tryptophan 500 mg, and EnduraQ 200 mg. His chest soreness stopped.


Edited by RWhigham, 20 July 2017 - 08:51 PM.

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#272 Turnbuckle

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 02:34 PM

Going beyond NR

A nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) trial

 

NMN is NR with an added phosphate group, and is one step closer to NAD. As oral NR and NMN appear to be broken down before absorption (at least in rats, see Ref-1 below), but are reassembled in cells, it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic. I’ve tried it separately with IP6 and disodium phosphate, which both seem to deliver more than N+R alone, in my (somewhat limited) experience.

 

NMN is known to raise NAD+ levels in the hippocampus (See Ref-3).

 

The Fission half of the protocol is thus—

 

N+R — 2g/5g

Rose hips (1g) — activating ampk for fission

Gypenosides (150mg) — activating ampk for fission

IP6 or inorganic phosphate (2-5g) — phosphate source to produce NMN from NR.

 

Gym after 1.5-2 hours.

 

I’m allowing more time before the gym as NMN requires another step for synthesis, and experimentally it seemed to take longer to reach its maximum, which is higher than N+R alone. Lysine and pyruvate, which I used before, are still optional. See also my comments about resveratrol at this end of this post.

 

Ref-1

 

[A study in rats] Perfused or intact intestine rapidly hydrolyzed NMN to nicotinamide riboside, which accumulated, but was not absorbed. It was slowly cleaved by an enzyme associated with the mucosal cells to nicotinamide, which was the major if not the only labeled compound absorbed.

 

http://nadh.wiki/wp-...-of-the-Rat.pdf

 

 

Ref-2

 

Conditions Necessary for NMN Synthesis-The failure of previous workers to obtain results comparable with those reported here may be attributed to two factors. In order to obtain maximum synthesis, the cells must be washed prior to incubation and must be incubated in a medium containing inorganic phosphate in excess of that found in plasma.

 

http://www.jbc.org/c.../2/889.full.pdf

 

 

Ref-3

 

Nampt converts nicotinamide, a major precursor in mammalian NAD+ biosynthesis, and 5′-phosphoribosyl-1-pyrophosphate to nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), a key NAD+ intermediate. NMN is then converted to NAD+ by nicotinamide/nicotinic acid mononucleotide adenylyltransferase (Nampt). We and others have previously reported that the expression of Nampt in the brain is extremely low compared to peripheral tissues. However, Nampt has uniquely strong expression in the hippocampus. Because recent studies show that the energetic demands of stem cell proliferation and lineage specification require distinct metabolic programs, we hypothesized that [neural stem/progenitor cells] would be particularly sensitive to changes in NAD+ levels and accordingly alter their proliferation, self-renewal, and differentiation.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4194122/

 

 

Given the low levels of Nampt in most of the brain as reported above, a supplement to upregulate it might be useful if this protocol is to be extended to all parts of the brain. Resveratrol upregulates Nampt, and so I tried 200mg (along with 25mg DHEA to avoid joint pain) 4 hours after beginning the protocol. I got a transient sense of wellbeing from it about a half hour later, something I’d never experienced before from resveratrol. The meaning of this I don’t know, but a felling of well-being is generally a good sign. More experiments are thus in order.


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#273 Turnbuckle

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:34 PM

While it would be nice to add resveratrol to the fission protocol, unfortunately it promotes fusion. But there might be a way, given the stated biological half-life of 1-3 hours, while the estimated half-life of human NAMPT protein is 30 hours. The solution may be very simple: just  take resveratrol the evening before.

 

 

Trans-resveratrol half-life was 1-3 h following single-doses

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19194969

 

the estimated half-life of human NAMPT protein is 30 hours.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3227030/

 

 

 


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#274 RWhigham

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 10:39 PM

it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic.

I found eating cheese has a dramatic effect on urinary phosphorus excretion--unexpected because the listed phosphorus content of cheese doesn't seem that high.  I would propose that having a few ounces of Swiss would supply the phosphorus to go with N+R.

 

Details:

Urine test  :  "High amount of phosphate in the urine, for example, after drinking large amounts of milk, which is high in phosphorus and calcium, can result in formation of phosphate crystals in urine and cloudy urine [45]. A drop of acetic acid (vinegar) immediately clears urine that is cloudy due to phosphates."  Note: the cloudiness is not seen in acidic urine. Urine is normally slightly acidic and thus does not normally turn cloudy after phosphorus intake. The pH would have to be made slightly alkaline to see any cloudiness.

 

I alkalinize my urine by adding potassium citrate and magnesium acetate to drinking water (to increase bone density). I don't measure pH. I just add drops of General Hydroponics pH test indicator (easy) and watch the color as the drops land (red acidic, green alkaline).

 

My urine turns very cloudy after eating a chunk of cheese. The cloudiness is easily cleared by adding a few drops of vinegar. I seldom eat cheese because of the excess phosphorus I was seeing. I never see cloudy urine otherwise.


Edited by RWhigham, 22 July 2017 - 10:42 PM.

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#275 resting

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:27 AM

I have been partially following this so will give the adjusted one a go. I did the N + R   for two days and some shifting of earth (shovel)  and now have a very stiff/ache neck/shoulder  that has lasted somewhat.

Been out of the gym for 2 years after an injury (being too competitive) and failed to 'warm up'. 


Edited by resting, 24 July 2017 - 11:28 AM.


#276 Turnbuckle

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:47 PM

I have been partially following this so will give the adjusted one a go. I did the N + R   for two days and some shifting of earth (shovel)  and now have a very stiff/ache neck/shoulder  that has lasted somewhat.

Been out of the gym for 2 years after an injury (being too competitive) and failed to 'warm up'. 

 

 

It's Exercise Like a Girl. Not Exercise Like a Man.


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#277 Andey

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 02:13 PM

 

I don't take melatonin for sleep purposes. I take it to regenerate my thymus gland.

It just happens that it also stimulates fusion.

 

 

 

  Sorry for off topic, have you tried (or plan to) to assess whether it's working in some way?

Doctors measure thymus via ultrasound (I believe it's not a direct measurement because it's located behind bones but anyway), so it should be cheap and relatively accessible. 



#278 RWhigham

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 03:08 PM

 

 

I don't take melatonin for sleep purposes. I take it to regenerate my thymus gland.

It just happens that it also stimulates fusion.

 

 

 

  Sorry for off topic, have you tried (or plan to) to assess whether it's working in some way?

Doctors measure thymus via ultrasound (I believe it's not a direct measurement because it's located behind bones but anyway), so it should be cheap and relatively accessible. 

 

Andey, no plans to test for now. I would like to monitor progress with ultrasound, but for the expense.


Edited by RWhigham, 24 July 2017 - 03:09 PM.

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#279 StanG

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:20 PM

I've been following this blog for quite sometime and I don't see why you can't combine RES with fission products. After all, the cycle happens so fast they both could be effective. We really need to eventually learn the incredible complexities of the human body's systems (and this doesn't even take in to consideration individual variability). 



#280 zorba990

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 01:20 AM

Going beyond NR
A nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) trial

NMN is NR with an added phosphate group, and is one step closer to NAD. As oral NR and NMN appear to be broken down before absorption (at least in rats, see Ref-1 below), but are reassembled in cells, it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic. I’ve tried it separately with IP6 and disodium phosphate, which both seem to deliver more than N+R alone, in my (somewhat limited) experience.
.


What about using creatine phosphate (not monohydrate) as a phosphate source? I recently found it again in a couple different forms (creatine glycerol phosphate and plain creatine phosphate)
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#281 Turnbuckle

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 12:03 PM

 

Going beyond NR
A nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) trial

NMN is NR with an added phosphate group, and is one step closer to NAD. As oral NR and NMN appear to be broken down before absorption (at least in rats, see Ref-1 below), but are reassembled in cells, it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic. I’ve tried it separately with IP6 and disodium phosphate, which both seem to deliver more than N+R alone, in my (somewhat limited) experience.
.


What about using creatine phosphate (not monohydrate) as a phosphate source? I recently found it again in a couple different forms (creatine glycerol phosphate and plain creatine phosphate)

 

 

The point of fission/exercise is to decrease ATP production during exercise rather than increase it, thus getting more muscle credit for a lighter workout while also getting rid of marginal mitochondria. So creatine will likely work in the opposite direction.


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#282 Turnbuckle

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 03:44 PM

Latest NMN/fission trial (with ingredients impacting mtio function in the brain in bold). See also post 272 and post 273

 

T= -12 hours

Resveratrol (200 mg) — upregulates NAMPT (visfatin), timed to allow 4-12 half-lives of resveratrol (half-life = 1-3 hrs) as it promotes fusion and I want fission. The half-life of NAMPT is estimated at 30 hours. It is an enzyme that converts NR to NMN, which then converts to NAD+. NAMPT is particularly low in the brain while high in muscle. Thus its addition is more directed at improving mito quality in the brain. (See post 273 for half-life references)

 

T = 0 hours

N+R (2g/5g) — produces NR and promotes fission, sets mito QC in motion

Fisetin (100mg) — for Sirt1, promotor of mitophagy

Rose hips (1g) — activating ampk for fission

Gypenosides (150mg) — activating ampk for fission

Disodium phosphate (4g) — phosphate source to produce NMN from NR.

IP6 (2g) — phosphate source to produce NMN from NR.

 

T = 1 hour

Pyruvate (4g) — (lactate source to get the burn)

Potassium nitrate (150mg) — increases nitric oxide

 

T = 1.5 hour

Gym

 

Next day: Fusion/biogenesis

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Results: A good gym workout. Good weakening, much like when I first started with N+R. During the day I felt compelled to take a number of naps, probably 4-6 hours altogether, but no drugged feeling such as I experienced using TMG/lysine with N+R some time back--see post 107. By evening I noticed a definite uptick in verbal fluency, which continued through the next day. Will see how it goes, but I will definitely be using this protocol again, as thus far it appears to do what I anticipated, clearing defective mitochondria from the brain.


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#283 Advocatus Diaboli

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 04:45 PM

Turnbuckle, are you doing any objective measuring of things such as simple visual reaction time or tests of digit span (example of digit span and other tests can be found here)? The  subjective "uptick in verbal fluency" that you report can have a number of different meanings--do you sense, or have others noted to you, that you are more voluble or sesquipedalian?

 

I suspect that a more objective indication of possible verbal cognitive gains, rather than your own self-assessment, would be others mentioning to you what they might perceive, in your speech or writing, as a more precise expression of ideas, for example.

 

If someone had noted that you were, of late, "inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity" (as Disraeli said of Gladstone quote) then I think you're on to something!  ;)

 

formerly known as "hypnos" (also, added a gadget to my profile page)

 


Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 26 July 2017 - 04:47 PM.

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#284 Turnbuckle

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:20 PM

@Advocatus Diaboli

 

Mine are anecdotal and subjective reports from my personal experiments and I don't pretend they are anything else. I post them here for the benefit of others and for useful feedback, but I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything. And if I became "inebriated with the exuberance of my own verbosity," I would not consider that an uptick. I would consider it a negative side effect.


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#285 Advocatus Diaboli

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 05:54 PM

Thanks, Turnbuckle, I appreciate your reports. I'm a big fan of Lord Kelvin's injunction (paraphrased): "To measure is to know".

 

I'm currently tracking reaction time and digit span. I've also documented a drop in blood pressure in fission.


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#286 zorba990

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 02:41 AM

Going beyond NR
A nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) trial

NMN is NR with an added phosphate group, and is one step closer to NAD. As oral NR and NMN appear to be broken down before absorption (at least in rats, see Ref-1 below), but are reassembled in cells, it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic. I’ve tried it separately with IP6 and disodium phosphate, which both seem to deliver more than N+R alone, in my (somewhat limited) experience.
.

What about using creatine phosphate (not monohydrate) as a phosphate source? I recently found it again in a couple different forms (creatine glycerol phosphate and plain creatine phosphate)

The point of fission/exercise is to decrease ATP production during exercise rather than increase it, thus getting more muscle credit for a lighter workout while also getting rid of marginal mitochondria. So creatine will likely work in the opposite direction.

Ok thanks, I will try magnesium phosphate since I have some on hand.

I'm adding niacinamide and ribose topically on face and scalp. If it works I expect a slight reddening of skin and increased hair fallout followed by improvements, but it usually takes many months to gauge hair effects.

#287 ambivalent

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 03:02 AM

Has anyone noticed variable effects with alcohol consumpion on fission/fusion/neither days compared with pre-protocol?



#288 Shai Hulud

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 12:49 PM

I'm starting to wonder if activation of PDK (Pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase) wouldn't do the same, but easier and cheaper, especially since most brain cells are so low in NAMPT. A sublingual glucose tablet could be worth a try.


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#289 ambivalent

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 11:03 AM

Has anyone noticed variable effects with alcohol consumpion on fission/fusion/neither days compared with pre-protocol?

 

 

The effects I observed were comparable c60oo, albeit weaker. However these were only 1-off events.

 

On fission day I drank perhaps 1/3rd to half a bottle and felt a rather heavy-headed sensation. The following day I was mildly hung-over. With c60oo I generally found when I drank alcohol with c60oo in my blood the effects were unpleasant. - I believe Sensei reported experiencing an almighty hangover when downing c60oo while heavily inebriated.

 

A couple of days after a cycle ~ (varying amounts of NR (1-2g) was added to N+R). I drank an entire bottle of wine and felt absolutely fine the next day - ordinarily this wouldn't sit well with me - in addition I didn't feel as especially drunk as I'd expected. The high tolerance to alcohol effect wasn't as striking as some occasions with c60oo but it was certainly noticeable and the absence of a hangover was especially noteworthy.

 

A very weakly confident (and odd) result: I felt on a fusion day a while back that my skin felt very smooth after 1-2 glasses of wine.

 

These are all one off samples, I'm not a regular drinker.


Edited by ambivalent, 28 July 2017 - 11:47 AM.


#290 supernoober

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 03:49 AM

What is the updated protocol? I worked graveyard shifts for 2.5 years and feel like I need to upgrade my mitochondria. I have been on the day schedule for a few months but feel like I could upgrade my mitochondria.

What is the recommended form/brand of NAD? Are we using nicotinamide, or nicotinamide riboside? I'm looking for something that wouldn't cause downregulation or build up tolerance.

 



#291 hotbit

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 02:02 PM

What is the recommended form/brand of NAD? Are we using nicotinamide, or nicotinamide riboside?

 

 

Would you read this thread, you woould find answers to these questions and much more.


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#292 zorba990

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 01:02 AM

Is Quercetin another candidate for fission enhancement?
The last sentence below sounds scary until you consider all of The info in this thread.

https://www.hindawi....cl/2015/836301/

"The effect of quercetin on heart mitochondrial function was also studied at the level of mitochondrial biogenesis and mitochondrial dynamics. Protein expression for PGC-1α, MFN2, and VDAC was analyzed by immunoblots (Figure 5). PGC-1α, the master regulator of mitochondrial biogenesis is upregulated upon energy expenditure and demand [39]. Mitochondrial dynamics (MtDy), given by the balance between fusion and fission events, control not only mitochondrial morphology but rather mitochondrial function, mitochondrial turnover, and bioenergetics. MFN2, a mitochondrial fusion protein located on the outer mitochondrial membrane, has been shown to be upregulated upon stressful conditions [36, 37]. The Voltage-Dependent Anion Carrier (VDAC) also performs several key functions, including regulating the shape and structure of mitochondria, interaction with hexokinase, and apoptosis signaling [64]. The immunoblot results showed quercetin treatment did not affect the expression of PGC-1α. On the other hand, VDAC and MFN2 protein expression levels were significantly decreased in quercetin-treated mice (Figures 5(a) and 5©). Mitochondrial dysfunction is normally correlated with an increase in the reactive oxygen species (ROS). To evaluate redox status in heart mitochondria, protein oxidation was assessed by the OxyBlot methodology [65]. Treatment with quercetin showed a significant increase in mitochondrial protein oxidation as compared with control (Figures 5(b) and 5(d)).

Figure 5: Effect of quercetin treatment on the expression of PGC-1α, Mitofusin 2, VDAC, and protein oxidation. (a) Detection of carbonyl groups was performed with the OxyBlot Protein Oxidation Detection Kit. © Densitometry quantification of carbonyl groups was made with the ImageJ software. Carbonylation of proteins was normalized by Ponceau staining and Complex V (CV) expression. (b) Expression of mitochondrial proteins. Protein expression of MFN2, PGC-1α, and VDAC1 was analyzed in heart isolated mitochondria from control and quercetin-treated mice. β-actin was used as a loading control. (d) Densitometry analysis. MFN2, PGC-1α, and VDAC1 expressions were normalized by β-actin expression. Each bar represents the mean ± SD, analyzed by two-sample -test (). Control mice, ; quercetin-treated mice, . Each bar represents the mean ± SD, analyzed by two-sample -test (). Significant differences () were found between control and quercetin-treated mice. .
Altogether, our results suggest that in vivo quercetin treatment is associated with a severe mitochondrial dysfunction drastically affecting erythropoiesis and heart mitochondria."

Edited by zorba990, 31 July 2017 - 01:02 AM.

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#293 supernoober

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 02:56 AM

So I read the last few pages of this thread. I don't want to go too far back and confuse myself, especially since the later pages are more updated.

Questions:

 

There's a clear protocol for fission, but I didn't see one for fusion. What do you guys recommend for fusion? I already supplement with creatine and antioxidants like vitamin C and quercetin. Is there a set timing for the PQQ? How long do you have to space out your fission and fusion days?

 

Also on my work days, I normally do bulletproof coffee intermittent fasting (with MCT oil) with cacao 3 days a week + mitochondrial boosters like ubiquinol and shajalit, and lift weights or sprint on my days off without fasting. I drink coffee and supplement creatine every day. I plan on only doing fission when I am off work for a small stretch to avoid performance suffering at work. I guess I will stop the creatine, zinc, and magnesium and antioxidants on fission days as well.

 

Does the brand for nicotinamide matter? I was going to buy Thorne nicotinamide. https://www.amazon.c...ds=nicotinamide

Why do we need stearic acid (or do we even need it). Isn't it made from cottonseed oil and bad for the health?

 

By ribose do you mean D-ribose?

 

Doesn't rose hips contact Vitamin C and help with fusion instead of fission?

 

Should I avoid vitamin D3 altogether on fusion days?

 

Do I need the disodium phosphate, or will IP6 alone suffice? I can't find a supplement form for the disodium phosphate.

I understand the logic of the "exercise like a girl protocol", but how about on non-fission or fusion days? Do I need to time my workout in any way?

 


Edited by supernoober, 31 July 2017 - 03:00 AM.


#294 Turnbuckle

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 03:00 PM

My present 7-day protocol for mitochondrial rejuvenation and age regression:

 

Part I—

Day 1: Fission

Day 2: Fusion + biosynthesis

Day 3: Blank

 

Part II—

Day 1: Fission

Day 2: Fusion + biosynthesis

Day 3: Fusion + C60

Day 4: Blank

 

Repeat

 

---------------------------------

Details

---------------------------------

 

Fission—

 

T= -12 hours

Resveratrol (400 mg)

 

T = 0 hours

N+R (2g/5g)

Fisetin (200mg)

Rose hips (1g)

Gypenosides (150mg)

Disodium phosphate (4g)

IP6 (2g)

  

T = 1.5-2 hours

Gym (Exercise Like a Girl)

 

See post 282 for more details

 

---------------------------------

 

Fusion—

 

T = 0

Stearic acid (5-10 g)

 

See: Regulation of mitochondrial morphology and function by Stearoylation of TfR1 — “We find that animal cells are poised to respond to both increases and decreases in C18:0 levels, with increased C18:0 dietary intake boosting mitochondrial fusion in vivo.”

 

---------------------------------

 

Biogenesis—

 

T = 0 (with Fusion)

Resveratrol (200mg)

PQQ (10mg)

BCAA (10g)

Hydroxytyrosol (25mg)

Epicatechin (500mg)

 

T = 4 hours

PQQ (10mg)

Hydroxytyrosol (25mg)

Epicatechin (500mg)

 

See also post 191

 

---------------------------------

 

C-60 (with Fusion)

 

One teaspoon of an experimental mix of MCT oil with added hydroxytyrosol (HT). See my profile write up, Section 5.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Turnbuckle, 31 July 2017 - 03:06 PM.

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#295 supernoober

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:41 PM

Is cacao a sufficient source of epicatechin? And I thought cacao was good for fission?

Also, where do you get your C60? Is it necessary for the protocol?


Edited by supernoober, 31 July 2017 - 07:53 PM.


#296 Turnbuckle

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:00 AM

Is cacao a sufficient source of epicatechin? And I thought cacao was good for fission?

Also, where do you get your C60? Is it necessary for the protocol?

 

 

If you are new to this thread, I suggest you first try the very simple protocol of N+R, followed by exercise. See my previous thread, Exercise Like a Girl. The other bells and whistles I added to make it more efficient and to get more effect in neuronal mitochondria. C60 is not central to the goal of eliminating defective mitochondria, and you can leave that off as well. 


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#297 zorba990

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 11:44 PM

Is T-12 enough time for pterostilbene (as opposed to resveratrol) ?
Google lists the half life thusly:

"Pterostilbene has a longer half-life (105 minutes versus 14 minutes) and higher oral bioavailability (80% versus 20%) compared to resveratrol [4–7]. Pterostilbene also has low total body clearance and subsequent Vss which suggests extensive tissue distribution [4]."

I found loading butyrate immediately post workout to increase the hangover feeling that Seems to follow several hours after. The effect was too strong with 6g and I ended up feeling quite ill for about two hours with severe headache, sweats and alternating fever / chills feeling followed by mild euphoria. The second time I tried it I used 2g and the headache was mild and only a comfortable sweating increase. So my guess is doing this increases mitopahgy but it's purely subjective....I haven't ruled out other possibilities including too much sodium, since I take 2.5g sodium in my workout drink.


http://m.pnas.org/co...1/52/18030.full
"Autophagic cell death is another important physiological cell death process. This mode of cell death is characterized by massive degradation of cellular contents, including essential organelles such as mitochondria, by means of complicated intracellular membrane/vesicle reorganization and lysosomal activity (12–16). It is involved in development and stress responses and has been observed in multiple neurodegenerative diseases (12–16). Because the mechanism is not well defined, some autophagic cell death events might have been attributed to apoptosis. Moreover, these two modes of cell death frequently occur in parallel. For example, gene profiling of Drosophila cells undergoing steroid-induced developmental cell death identified clustered up-regulation of several apoptosis-related genes with autophagy-related genes (17, 18); deprivation of neural growth factor induced simultaneous autophagic and apoptotic cell death in primary sympathetic neurons (19). However, caspases are not required for autophagic cell death (12–16), and Bcl-2 and Bcl-XL do not inhibit autophagic cell death in a mammary epithelial morphogenesis model (20). Furthermore, like apoptosis, autophagic cell death is involved in tumorigenesis: autophagic activity was found to be suppressed in malignant tumors (16); some autophagic regulators, such as Beclin 1 (21–24) and death-associated protein kinase (25–28), are putative tumor suppressors. Currently, there is no cancer therapeutic approach that specifically targets the autophagic cell death machine.
It has been reported that histone deacetylase (HDAC) inhibitors preferentially kill transformed cells or cancer cells in both cell cultures and animal models (29). These compounds also induce cell growth arrest and differentiation. Such properties make them good candidates for targeted therapies. According to their chemical structures, HDAC inhibitors can be classified into several groups, including (i) short-chain fatty acids, such as sodium butyrate; (ii) hydroxamic acids, such as suberoylanilide hydroxamic acid (SAHA) (30); and (iii) cyclic tetrapeptides, such as trapoxin.
HDAC inhibitors can increase acetylation of histones and various other proteins. HDAC, along with their counterparts, histone acetyl transferases, regulate the status of histone acetylation and thus are involved in transcriptional regulation and cell differentiation (31, 32). Because HDAC are overexpressed in many cancers, and the death-inducing capability of different HDAC inhibitors correlates with their HDAC-inhibitory potency, it is widely accepted that the cell death-inducing function of HDAC inhibitors is due to their ability to inhibit HDAC activity (29, 33).
However, the mechanisms by which HDAC inhibitors induce cell death are not well understood. In this report, we used genetically engineered cell lines to dissect the molecular determinants of cell death induced by butyrate and SAHA, two HDAC inhibitors from different structural classes. We found that HDAC inhibitors induced both apoptosis via the cytochrome c-mediated caspase activation pathway and caspase-independent autophagic cell death. Induction of two modes of programmed cell death by HDAC inhibitors indicates that these drugs might be particularly valuable when treating cancers with apoptotic defects."

Edited by zorba990, 02 August 2017 - 11:56 PM.


#298 smithx

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 07:45 AM

This paper has an opposite result in humans:

https://brenner.lab....Trammell16c.pdf

See the section beginning on page 4 starting with: "NR is the superior hepatic NAD+ precursor vitamin"

 

 

 


 

Do you find taking niacinamide plus ribose as effective as commercial NR?

 

 

It's more effective. For NAD+, supplements appear to be effective in the following sequence: nicotinic acid < nicotinamide < NR < nicotinamide + ribose

 

Note that nicotinamide is the same as niacinamide, and nicotinic acid is the same as niacin.

 

Nicotinamide + a greater than stoichiometric  dose of ribose should be more effective than NR, as NR must be enzymatically broken down into nicotinamide + ribose to be absorbed. Since some ribose will be lost, not all will be recombined, and there is a several hour delay before it reaches its maximum effect for that same reason. Thus the 2 g nicotinamide + 5 g ribose dose I'm using should be equivalent to > 4 g NR.

 

See the following paper--

 

 

Perfused or intact intestine rapidly hydrolyzed NMN to nicotinamide riboside, which accumulated, but was not absorbed. It was slowly cleaved by an enzyme associated with the mucosal cells to nicotinamide, which was the major if not the only labeled compound absorbed.

 

http://nadh.wiki/wp-...-of-the-Rat.pdf

 

 

 



#299 Turnbuckle

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 09:20 AM

 

This paper has an opposite result in humans:

https://brenner.lab....Trammell16c.pdf

See the section beginning on page 4 starting with: "NR is the superior hepatic NAD+ precursor vitamin"

 

 

 

 

 

 

That paper does not compare NR to N+R.


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#300 Turnbuckle

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 11:10 AM

I accidentally posted the above before I was finished. The fact is, the paper does not compare NR to N+R, nor does it show how NR blood levels vary with time after oral NR ingestion. This is very strange given that they show how almost everything else varies with time. Also, they claim that NAM levels did not vary at any time, yet their Fig. 3A contradicts this. NAM levels do increase, and reach a max at 5 hours, which coincides with the max of NAD+ as seen in Fig. 2. 


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