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Manipulating mitochondrial dynamics

nad nad+ c60 mito fission fusion stearic acid mtdna methylene blue

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#361 Turnbuckle

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 09:41 PM

 

Trammell SA, Schmidt MS, Weidemann BJ, et al. Nicotinamide riboside is uniquely and orally bioavailable in mice and humans. Nat Commun. 2016;7:12948.

https://www.nature.c...les/ncomms12948

 

 

Before you buy into this oral availability bit, look down at the bottom of the paper your referenced--

 

 

Competing interests
F.J., R.W.D. and C.B. own stock in ChromaDex, the supplier of NR and sponsor of the clinical study. F.J. and R.W.D. are employees of ChromaDex. M.E.M. has received research grants and serves as a consultant for ChromaDex. C.B. has received a research grant and serves on the scientific advisory board of ChromaDex. S.A.J.T. and C.B. have an intellectual property interest in detecting NAAD as a biomarker of elevated NAD metabolism. C.B. is the chief scientific adviser of ProHealthspan, which sells NR supplements. The remaining authors declare no competing financial interests.

 

 
 
Then try to find a plot showing NR vs time.

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#362 zorba990

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:31 PM

Very interesting. Both nicotinamide and tryptophan are sleep inducers for me, so this would probably knock me for a loop. (That's not a bad thing.)

One question: How do you know of more ribose is needed? Didn't follow that bit.



Yes, they are sleep inducers, and that's why I am taking them before bed. The half life or ribose is several times less than nicotinamide or tryptophan. I know I need more when I get the same slightly odd feeling I get when taking nicotinamide without ribose--which is why I wasn't a fan of nicotinamide years back. But after taking more ribose, the feeling goes away.

Would you mind sharing what brand tryptophan? I have had a hard time finding one that did not cause weird cardiac side effects.

#363 Turnbuckle

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:07 PM

 

Would you mind sharing what brand tryptophan? I have had a hard time finding one that did not cause weird cardiac side effects.

 

 

Since I have never had that problem, the brand I used will be meaningless. You may have serotonin syndrome, in which case you will not want to use this supplement.


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#364 MikeDC

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:27 PM

This fusion and fusion thing is just nonsense. Same with N+R equal NR
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#365 aribadabar

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 12:19 AM

This fusion and fusion thing is just nonsense. Same with N+R equal NR

 

We already know that there is nothing better than NR in the whole universe.. your mission is complete, you can go away now!


Edited by aribadabar, 17 September 2017 - 12:32 AM.

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#366 MikeDC

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 12:42 AM

Prove me wrong.
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#367 zorba990

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:06 AM

This fusion and fusion thing is just nonsense. Same with N+R equal NR


Why do you care?
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#368 BigLabRat

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 06:14 PM

Prove me wrong.

 

My belief is that if people take enough Vitamin C that when they die they will go live with unicorns.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

:-D
 


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#369 BigLabRat

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 06:34 PM

 

 

Very interesting. Both nicotinamide and tryptophan are sleep inducers for me, so this would probably knock me for a loop. (That's not a bad thing.)

One question: How do you know of more ribose is needed? Didn't follow that bit.



Yes, they are sleep inducers, and that's why I am taking them before bed. The half life or ribose is several times less than nicotinamide or tryptophan. I know I need more when I get the same slightly odd feeling I get when taking nicotinamide without ribose--which is why I wasn't a fan of nicotinamide years back. But after taking more ribose, the feeling goes away.

Would you mind sharing what brand tryptophan? I have had a hard time finding one that did not cause weird cardiac side effects.

 

 

I'm afraid I can't help, as I've never had side effects (other than drowsiness).

 

As Turnbuckle suggests, it could be serotonin syndrome.

 

Also, one of the intermediaries between Tryptophan and NAD+ is Quinolinic Acid, which is a potent neurotoxin if it accumulates. Things that seem to lead to accumulation are deficiencies of B vitamins. Anti-inflammatories, such as curcumin, also sometimes help.

 

Look at some of the (largely anecdotal) research, and try a broad-spectrum B supplement or curcumin, etc. if you want to explore things to counteract the effect.

 

Or skip tryptophan entirely and use niacin (if you can stand the flush); niacin is several enzymes closer to NAD+. And tryptophan in high doses produces all kinds of odd byproducts...

 


 



#370 Turnbuckle

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 06:44 PM

 

 

 

Or skip tryptophan entirely and use niacin (if you can stand the flush); niacin is several enzymes closer to NAD+. And tryptophan in high doses produces all kinds of odd byproducts...

 

 

 

 

 

Given that tryptophan at 1-3g is recommended for sleep, 1g is not a large dose. But it can be deleted altogether, as N+R is acceptable (with no niacin). It's just a matter of the level of NAD+ boost you get from it. 


Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 September 2017 - 06:45 PM.

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#371 Rbauer@AxiosNutra

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 09:38 PM

What is C60 comprised of(active molecule, etc) is it a polyphenol, or what.


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#372 Turnbuckle

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:39 AM

A niacin/tryptophan trial with 1g of each and no nicotinamide. (Otherwise the same protocol as in post 353)

 

Results: Poor sleep and a fraction of the usual results. Not recommended.


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#373 hotbit

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 06:11 PM

Might be of interest:

 

Cell Biology: Mitochondria  4 weeks  course, by Harvard Uni, advertised as free.
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#374 BigLabRat

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:20 PM

A niacin/tryptophan trial with 1g of each and no nicotinamide. (Otherwise the same protocol as in post 353)

 

Results: Poor sleep and a fraction of the usual results. Not recommended.

 

Yeah, niacin isn't great for sleep!
 



#375 zorba990

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:43 AM




Or skip tryptophan entirely and use niacin (if you can stand the flush); niacin is several enzymes closer to NAD+. And tryptophan in high doses produces all kinds of odd byproducts...




Given that tryptophan at 1-3g is recommended for sleep, 1g is not a large dose. But it can be deleted altogether, as N+R is acceptable (with no niacin). It's just a matter of the level of NAD+ boost you get from it.

Trying 500mg niacin, 3g niacinamide, 5g ribose with 2g mag threonate tonight. Flush is immediate (gotta love bulk powders) we will see how sleep goes. Thanks for all the input, I will check on serotonin syndrome, although I thought that was only with ssri use which I never have.

#376 BigLabRat

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 06:14 AM

 

 Thanks for all the input, I will check on serotonin syndrome, although I thought that was only with ssri use which I never have.

 

 

Don't believe it. All kinds of drug/supplement interactions can cause serotonin syndrome. (This includes things you wouldn't expect, such as LSD, which operates in tiny amounts.)

 

We don't know anything like the full list of possibilities. It's worth reading up on if tryptophan gives you problems.

 



#377 BigLabRat

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:17 PM

 

Two-path NAD+ experimental protocol

....

Results: I’ve done this every day for a week with no adverse effects. I sleep better (due to the serotonin from the tryptophan) and wake up with amazing muscle tone, as if I’ve been to the gym in my sleep. I go to the gym in the morning and find that I have none of the “exercise like a girl” weakening, as it appears that the strong fissioning caused by NAD+ is already gone. Thus I see no need to use fusion promoters.

 

I've been on your experimental protocol for a few days, and I find the effects stronger than your original protocol. (I'm duplicating your bedtime dosages exactly. Before lunch I'm taking PQQ and a different set of anti-oxidants.)

 

I see what you mean about muscle tone in the morning. And its nice to be able to exercise normally.

 

So far, this is not only more bang for the buck than your first protocol, but is far easier for me to follow. NIcotinamide in the daytime always leaves me groggy; taking it at night is perfect.

 

Let us know how long you keep this up and what results you see.


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#378 sumguy90

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:31 PM

Turnbuckle, do you think the new protocol is so successful because of your success with the old protocol? Which do you think would be better to start with for someone who's done neither?

What's your exercise regimen like with the new protocol? How do you think the fission inducers, sleep, and exercise interact with respect to muscle growth?

Are you still taking lysine and/or TMG? How do you time those?

Thank you for sharing this fascinating experiment with us.

#379 Turnbuckle

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 05:18 PM

Turnbuckle, do you think the new protocol is so successful because of your success with the old protocol? Which do you think would be better to start with for someone who's done neither?

What's your exercise regimen like with the new protocol? How do you think the fission inducers, sleep, and exercise interact with respect to muscle growth?

Are you still taking lysine and/or TMG? How do you time those?

Thank you for sharing this fascinating experiment with us.

 

 

I'd start with the new one and see how it goes. Maybe every other day initially to allow time for lysosomes to digest their loads of defective mitochondria. As for your other questions, I'm presently working out every other day, and of course lifting far more weight in the gym as I'm out of high fission by the time I get there. I feel that doing this protocol and the resultant increase in muscle tone does give you some exercise credit at night, and it's logical to assume it would. TMG is one of those supplements that produces a massive effect when I need it, but otherwise produces nothing. I take lysine a couple of times a week and TMG more rarely. Both of these are known to have positive effects on mitochondrial, but they are not part of the protocol. I do plan on tweaking the protocol further, perhaps doubling the initial ribose dose and bringing back 50mg of apigenin (for fission). I'd deleted apigenin in post 353 to simplify things and because apigenin has a long half-life of 12 hours, but I hadn't compared it with and without.


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#380 zorba990

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 11:51 PM


Or skip tryptophan entirely and use niacin (if you can stand the flush); niacin is several enzymes closer to NAD+. And tryptophan in high doses produces all kinds of odd byproducts...


Given that tryptophan at 1-3g is recommended for sleep, 1g is not a large dose. But it can be deleted altogether, as N+R is acceptable (with no niacin). It's just a matter of the level of NAD+ boost you get from it.
Trying 500mg niacin, 3g niacinamide, 5g ribose with 2g mag threonate tonight. Flush is immediate (gotta love bulk powders) we will see how sleep goes. Thanks for all the input, I will check on serotonin syndrome, although I thought that was only with ssri use which I never have.
Sleep was fine and I rather enjoyed the flush. I'm tempted to add lysine as I did notice some really itchy spots that were previous chicken pox sites if I recall correctly. Not sure if niacin is as safe long term as niacinamide or if fissioning during sleep might have some negative effect on other body recovery processes -- so I may stick to workout days only.

Edited by zorba990, 19 September 2017 - 11:52 PM.


#381 sumguy90

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:39 AM

As for your other questions, I'm presently working out every other day, and of course lifting far more weight in the gym as I'm out of high fission by the time I get there. I feel that doing this protocol and the resultant increase in muscle tone does give you some exercise credit at night, and it's logical to assume it would.


Was I correct in understanding from this thread and Exercise Like A Girl that you felt you achieved greater muscle gains from working out in a state of greater fission? Or was I mistaken and you were only combining fission with exercise for the mitophagy benefits? Do you currently think working out in fission or fusion leads to greater muscle gains?

#382 Turnbuckle

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:50 AM

 

As for your other questions, I'm presently working out every other day, and of course lifting far more weight in the gym as I'm out of high fission by the time I get there. I feel that doing this protocol and the resultant increase in muscle tone does give you some exercise credit at night, and it's logical to assume it would.


Was I correct in understanding from this thread and Exercise Like A Girl that you felt you achieved greater muscle gains from working out in a state of greater fission? Or was I mistaken and you were only combining fission with exercise for the mitophagy benefits? Do you currently think working out in fission or fusion leads to greater muscle gains?

 

 

 

Exercise and mito QC via fission appeared to be synergistic.


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#383 BigLabRat

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 01:34 AM

 

 

 

Or skip tryptophan entirely and use niacin (if you can stand the flush); niacin is several enzymes closer to NAD+. And tryptophan in high doses produces all kinds of odd byproducts...

 

Given that tryptophan at 1-3g is recommended for sleep, 1g is not a large dose. But it can be deleted altogether, as N+R is acceptable (with no niacin). It's just a matter of the level of NAD+ boost you get from it.
Trying 500mg niacin, 3g niacinamide, 5g ribose with 2g mag threonate tonight. Flush is immediate (gotta love bulk powders) we will see how sleep goes. Thanks for all the input, I will check on serotonin syndrome, although I thought that was only with ssri use which I never have.
Sleep was fine and I rather enjoyed the flush. I'm tempted to add lysine as I did notice some really itchy spots that were previous chicken pox sites if I recall correctly. Not sure if niacin is as safe long term as niacinamide or if fissioning during sleep might have some negative effect on other body recovery processes -- so I may stick to workout days only.

 

 

Niacin is safe long-term, as long as it isn't sustained-release niacin. All the kerfuffle about the dangers of niacin was a publicity ploy on the part of statin manufacturers.

 

If you keep a high level of niacin in the body, it causes liver problems. And many of the benefits of niacin appear to come from what the body does in clearing niacin from the bloodstream. So sustained release is the last thing you want.

 

This could be true of many other bodily processes as well. For that reason, I'm suspicious of the idea of trying to keep blood levels of anything artificially high on an ongoing basis.

 

I think the 'high-blood-levels' goal grew out of the use of antibiotics. I also think that keeping constantly high levels of a supplement simply encourages the body to adapt so as to counteract it; homeostasis is a powerful force.

 

By way of analogy, Is exercise good for you? Sure. Is round-the-clock exercise good for you? No. Is the highest possible volume of exercise good for you? Again, no. The body works in cycles.

 


 


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#384 Nate-2004

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:57 PM

Turnbuckle what areas of the body do you think the fission is occurring in during and after N+R plus exercise? Is it just muscle or could it be in the brain as well? My aim with this is to hopefully rule out mitochondrial dysfunction in the case of essential tremor.

 

I'm only about 2 cycles into this experiment with a heavier fission day on Sunday. I ended up with 3 fusion days due to a timing issue with other events. 

 

Using the "Tremor Test" app for iPhone which I've been taking at different points of the day for the last month or so, I've noticed it has stayed below 80 in milliG force, when it is normally over 100 and peaking at around 200 in the morning and 300 after workouts (highest in norepinephrine at that point). I also can't rule out the effects of propranolol since I've been taking it to handle the job interviews the last couple weeks. However, the fact that it's stayed below 150 after a workout is significantly different than what I've been seeing before that. If it begins dropping below 30 at any point without propranolol or alcohol then I will know it is working. Note: I've never seen a measurement below 30 except when my friends without tremor do the test. Theirs measures 5 to 8, which is a baseline I'm trying to achieve.


Edited by Nate-2004, 20 September 2017 - 10:05 PM.

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#385 Richard McGee

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 02:37 AM

Turnbuckle what areas of the body do you think the fission is occurring in during and after N+R plus exercise? Is it just muscle or could it be in the brain as well? My aim with this is to hopefully rule out mitochondrial dysfunction in the case of essential tremor.

 

I'm only about 2 cycles into this experiment with a heavier fission day on Sunday. I ended up with 3 fusion days due to a timing issue with other events. 

 

Using the "Tremor Test" app for iPhone which I've been taking at different points of the day for the last month or so, I've noticed it has stayed below 80 in milliG force, when it is normally over 100 and peaking at around 200 in the morning and 300 after workouts (highest in norepinephrine at that point). I also can't rule out the effects of propranolol since I've been taking it to handle the job interviews the last couple weeks. However, the fact that it's stayed below 150 after a workout is significantly different than what I've been seeing before that. If it begins dropping below 30 at any point without propranolol or alcohol then I will know it is working. Note: I've never seen a measurement below 30 except when my friends without tremor do the test. Theirs measures 5 to 8, which is a baseline I'm trying to achieve.

 

Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but in post #272 of this thread Turnbuckle discusses a protocol for targeting the NMN pathway by adding inorganic phosphate to the fission half of the protocol. The idea is that NMN raises NAD+  in hippocampus. The specifics of that protocol are detailed in that post, if you are interested.


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#386 Turnbuckle

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 09:37 AM

 

Turnbuckle what areas of the body do you think the fission is occurring in during and after N+R plus exercise? Is it just muscle or could it be in the brain as well? My aim with this is to hopefully rule out mitochondrial dysfunction in the case of essential tremor.

 

I'm only about 2 cycles into this experiment with a heavier fission day on Sunday. I ended up with 3 fusion days due to a timing issue with other events. 

 

Using the "Tremor Test" app for iPhone which I've been taking at different points of the day for the last month or so, I've noticed it has stayed below 80 in milliG force, when it is normally over 100 and peaking at around 200 in the morning and 300 after workouts (highest in norepinephrine at that point). I also can't rule out the effects of propranolol since I've been taking it to handle the job interviews the last couple weeks. However, the fact that it's stayed below 150 after a workout is significantly different than what I've been seeing before that. If it begins dropping below 30 at any point without propranolol or alcohol then I will know it is working. Note: I've never seen a measurement below 30 except when my friends without tremor do the test. Theirs measures 5 to 8, which is a baseline I'm trying to achieve.

 

Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but in post #272 of this thread Turnbuckle discusses a protocol for targeting the NMN pathway by adding inorganic phosphate to the fission half of the protocol. The idea is that NMN raises NAD+  in hippocampus. The specifics of that protocol are detailed in that post, if you are interested.

 

 

 

Thank you for posting that, Richard. I ultimately didn't see any advantage to it, but then I didn't have any easy way of looking for any, as Nate does. However, if he's getting results from what he's doing, then I'd continue on that path.


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#387 Turnbuckle

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 10:50 AM

A cautionary note on ribose—
 
I have not found any research on it, but it may be that excess ribose supports fusion. Doubling the nighttime protocol amount from 5g to 10g produced worse results—less muscle tone in the morning, for instance. And a previous experiment with the “exercise like a girl” protocol where I took another 5g ribose before going to the gym erased the muscle weakening I normally got. At the time I put it down to increased ATP, but now it seems equally likely that it ended the state of fission. So I’m reducing the ribose in the protocol in post 353 from 5g to 2g. (The best dose will likely depend on the individual.)
 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 21 September 2017 - 11:10 AM.

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#388 Nate-2004

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 02:08 PM

Going beyond NR

A nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) trial

 

NMN is NR with an added phosphate group, and is one step closer to NAD. As oral NR and NMN appear to be broken down before absorption (at least in rats, see Ref-1 below), but are reassembled in cells, it would seem possible to increase cellular NMN production by adding a phosphate source to the N+R protocol (see Ref-2). This could be organic or inorganic. I’ve tried it separately with IP6 and disodium phosphate, which both seem to deliver more than N+R alone, in my (somewhat limited) experience.

 

NMN is known to raise NAD+ levels in the hippocampus (See Ref-3).

 

The Fission half of the protocol is thus—

 

N+R — 2g/5g

Rose hips (1g) — activating ampk for fission

Gypenosides (150mg) — activating ampk for fission

IP6 or inorganic phosphate (2-5g) — phosphate source to produce NMN from NR.

 

Gym after 1.5-2 hours.

 

I’m allowing more time before the gym as NMN requires another step for synthesis, and experimentally it seemed to take longer to reach its maximum, which is higher than N+R alone. Lysine and pyruvate, which I used before, are still optional. See also my comments about resveratrol at this end of this post.

 

Ref-1

 

[A study in rats] Perfused or intact intestine rapidly hydrolyzed NMN to nicotinamide riboside, which accumulated, but was not absorbed. It was slowly cleaved by an enzyme associated with the mucosal cells to nicotinamide, which was the major if not the only labeled compound absorbed.

 

http://nadh.wiki/wp-...-of-the-Rat.pdf

 

 

Ref-2

 

Conditions Necessary for NMN Synthesis-The failure of previous workers to obtain results comparable with those reported here may be attributed to two factors. In order to obtain maximum synthesis, the cells must be washed prior to incubation and must be incubated in a medium containing inorganic phosphate in excess of that found in plasma.

 

http://www.jbc.org/c.../2/889.full.pdf

 

 

Ref-3

 

Nampt converts nicotinamide, a major precursor in mammalian NAD+ biosynthesis, and 5′-phosphoribosyl-1-pyrophosphate to nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), a key NAD+ intermediate. NMN is then converted to NAD+ by nicotinamide/nicotinic acid mononucleotide adenylyltransferase (Nampt). We and others have previously reported that the expression of Nampt in the brain is extremely low compared to peripheral tissues. However, Nampt has uniquely strong expression in the hippocampus. Because recent studies show that the energetic demands of stem cell proliferation and lineage specification require distinct metabolic programs, we hypothesized that [neural stem/progenitor cells] would be particularly sensitive to changes in NAD+ levels and accordingly alter their proliferation, self-renewal, and differentiation.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4194122/

 

 

Given the low levels of Nampt in most of the brain as reported above, a supplement to upregulate it might be useful if this protocol is to be extended to all parts of the brain. Resveratrol upregulates Nampt, and so I tried 200mg (along with 25mg DHEA to avoid joint pain) 4 hours after beginning the protocol. I got a transient sense of wellbeing from it about a half hour later, something I’d never experienced before from resveratrol. The meaning of this I don’t know, but a felling of well-being is generally a good sign. More experiments are thus in order.

 

Given the above suggestion regarding my ET, and this post quoted here, I have more questions. What is an inorganic phosphate? How do I add this? Is IP6 something that's sold by that name?

 

I thought AMPK activators like rose hips or Berberine or Metformin or other listed AMPK activators were pro fusion, they're for the fission side? 

 

Would your "atomic protocol" suffice or reach the brain?



#389 sumguy90

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 05:48 PM


Two-path NAD+ experimental protocol

Results: I’ve done this every day for a week with no adverse effects. I sleep better (due to the serotonin from the tryptophan) and wake up with amazing muscle tone, as if I’ve been to the gym in my sleep. I go to the gym in the morning and find that I have none of the “exercise like a girl” weakening, as it appears that the strong fissioning caused by NAD+ is already gone. Thus I see no need to use fusion promoters.

I plan to continue this at least for another week.

Note: Diet presently high protein/low carb, and has been for some months


Have you tried fusion promoters to test for greater benefits in the gym, despite feeling satisfied with current results?

Sorry if it's been mentioned already, but do you know what the approximate time to effectiveness and elimination time is for oral stearic acid? I ordered 3 lbs(!) before you posted the new protocol and it'd be nice to find some way to benefit from it.

#390 APBT

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 06:54 PM

 

 Is IP6 something that's sold by that name?

 

IP6 is  inositol hexaphosphate.  It is sold as IP6 or  inositol hexaphosphate.


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