154 replies to this topic

[The Capybara]

"I had formulated a methylene blue skin cream which provides a continual release."

 

It's nearly impossible to maintain a constant release of any active while keeping the actives at an appropriate concentration at the site of activity.

A loaded skin patch may be the closest possible answer, except for the barrier that MB seemingly faces at the skin interface.

I'd really like to know how you approached this issue and especially how you measured, or estimated the MB concentration below the superficial layers of the skin.

 

You need to create a concentration gradient, with the supply of MB at a (much) higher concentration than you'd want in the area of activity. The concentration gradient drives the diffusion once you can facilitate and demonstrate that you can get the MB to passively diffuse.

So whether you want to apply the MB to the surface of your skin, or drive it into the skin by a mechanical means such as needling, you need a reservoir of the MB at a high concentration to hit your < 2.5 μM concentration at the target site, and this will only be a very transient concentration unless you've got a constant supply defusing in behind what is being cleared by the body, of a fairly stable concentration of the stuff continuously waiting to diffuse in.

 

And that's why I went with the needling and a high localized concentration. It's a compromise, but I know for a fact that the methylene blue is where it should be.

That's not so easy to say with any certainty utilizing a cream.

This whole thing is a very non-trivial problem.

It's not a trivial problem at all, and compromises will have to be made.

[vegacosmetics]

 

I did mention sometime ago in this thread that I had formulated a methylene blue skin cream which provides a continual release. I sell this at cost on eBay

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/322976577533

 

How was this done and what's the concentration?

 

 

 

I'm not revealing the specific 'how', but as I have commented here before the Nature study and the concentrations used/results observed should  not be seen as absolute upper limits given the very different situations (total immersion of a skin sample and application to skin)

[The Capybara]

I understand that you want to keep your method a secret, but it's more than reasonable to ask how you measured the MB concentration at the target site within the skin itself.

I was unable to get significant skin diffusion with a MB concentration that was insanely high, saturating the skin constantly for hours in a plastic reservoir with a detergent in the mix facilitating diffusion.

Edited by The Capybara, 14 February 2018 - 10:02 PM.

[vegacosmetics]

"I had formulated a methylene blue skin cream which provides a continual release."

 

It's nearly impossible to maintain a constant release of any active while keeping the actives at an appropriate concentration at the site of activity.

A loaded skin patch may be the closest possible answer, except for the barrier that MB seemingly faces at the skin interface.

I'd really like to know how you approached this issue and especially how you measured, or estimated the MB concentration below the superficial layers of the skin.

 

You need to create a concentration gradient, with the supply of MB at a (much) higher concentration than you'd want in the area of activity. The concentration gradient drives the diffusion once you can facilitate and demonstrate that you can get the MB to passively diffuse.

So whether you want to apply the MB to the surface of your skin, or drive it into the skin by a mechanical means such as needling, you need a reservoir of the MB at a high concentration to hit your < 2.5 μM concentration at the target site, and this will only be a very transient concentration unless you've got a constant supply defusing in behind what is being cleared by the body, of a fairly stable concentration of the stuff continuously waiting to diffuse in.

 

And that's why I went with the needling and a high localized concentration. It's a compromise, but I know for a fact that the methylene blue is where it should be.

That's not so easy to say with any certainty utilizing a cream.

This whole thing is a very non-trivial problem.

It's not a trivial problem at all, and compromises will have to be made.

 

 

It's fairly routine both for cosmetics and medicinal topicals. In the case of MB it was a case of finding something which would...

 

1. Absorb MB

 

2. Release it reasonably slowly when applied to skin

 

3. Is safe to use in a skin cream 

 

 

The scope of the measurements you are talking about are beyond the scope of the lab and equipment I have access to. The calculations I have are based of the known factors of concentration of MB solution, rate of release from carrier, ability of skin to absorb MB.

[The Capybara]

That's all well and good, but as someone that's selling a commercial product that is self designed I'd say that this money making venture smacks of smoke and mirrors rather than science.

You are speaking in such broad, nonspecific terms that your words are essentially empty and meaningless.

How about just specifically address this: "The calculations I have are based of the known factors..<snip>..ability of skin to absorb MB"

What are your specific known factors regarding the ability of skin to absorb MB, especially in light of this statement: "the measurements you are talking about are beyond the scope of the lab and equipment I have access to"

[vegacosmetics]

That's all well and good, but as someone that's selling a commercial product that is self designed I'd say that this money making venture smacks of smoke and mirrors rather than science.

You are speaking in such broad, nonspecific terms that your words are essentially empty and meaningless.

How about just specifically address this: "The calculations I have are based of the known factors..<snip>..ability of skin to absorb MB"

What are your specific known factors regarding the ability of skin to absorb MB, especially in light of this statement: "the measurements you are talking about are beyond the scope of the lab and equipment I have access to"

 

 

Firstly, I'm selling it at cost. You'll notice the already low price includes global shipping; after all costs are accounted for I may just about break even. This calculation doesn't even begin to account for the time and effort I've put into this.

 

Your adversarial tone does rather disincline me to engage with your interrogation, but, we aim to please

 

http://www.optics.ed...4_5486_315.pdf  - One of many papers detailing the rate at which MB in solution will diffuse into skin tissue

 

 

I am making rough calculations from existing studies

[The Capybara]

Here's my perspective on this.

If you come here to Longecity to sell a product or make claims on a product, then I think scientific scrutiny is absolutely valid and warranted.

It's really not a personal issue, but your being evasive on answers is objectively suspect.

 

"Firstly, I'm selling it at cost. You'll notice the already low price includes global shipping; after all costs are accounted for I may just about break even."

 

That you're selling your own product at a given cost has absolutely no bearing on your scientific or therapeutic claims. It's a sympathy argument that has no scientific or observational merit.

 

Your provided reference does have merit since it deals entirely with the diffusion of methylene blue through the skin.

This paper states as its conclusion that:

 

"The pathway of MB solution into the skin samples is through dermis. The epidermis has remained

non-stained practically during all time of the experiment. It is connected with hindered diffusion of aqueous solutions

through hydrophobic stratum corneum* barrier. Diffusion coefficient of MB within the skin in vitro has been estimated.

Low values of the dye diffusion coefficient are connected with the interaction of MB ions with molecules of proteins in

tissue."

 

Even after hours soaking in methylene blue, the paper you provided shows that there was no observable diffusion of methylene blue through the epidermis** at all.

All observed diffusion occurred through the sides of the methylene blue skin samples, the surgically exposed dermis.

 

You've provided evidence with this reference, and very clear evidence, that your product will not penetrate the skin with any significance at all.....unless you cut the skin to expose the dermis. This is also consistent with the evidence provided in the main body of the paper.

 

This is also consistent to my personal observations that I've been posting to this thread.

 

Selling something that does not appear to have any value attributable to your claimed active ingredient, even "at cost" is still selling snake oil.

 

You may indeed be a great guy, but I have to call B.S. on your claims for your product based only on the very paper you provided to justify your claims of efficacy. 

 

 

* The stratum corneum is the outermost layer of the epidermis, consisting of dead cells (corneocytes). This layer is composed of 15–20 layers of flattened cells with no nuclei and cell organelles.

 

**The epidermis is the outer layer of the three layers that make up the skin, the inner layers being the dermis and hypodermis

 

[vegacosmetics]

 

Here's my perspective on this.

If you come here to Longecity to sell a product or make claims on a product, then I think scientific scrutiny is absolutely valid and warranted.

It's really not a personal issue, but your being evasive on answers is objectively suspect.

 

"Firstly, I'm selling it at cost. You'll notice the already low price includes global shipping; after all costs are accounted for I may just about break even."

 

That you're selling your own product at a given cost has absolutely no bearing on your scientific or therapeutic claims. It's a sympathy argument that has no scientific or observational merit.

 

Your provided reference does have merit since it deals entirely with the diffusion of methylene blue through the skin.

This paper states as its conclusion that:

 

"The pathway of MB solution into the skin samples is through dermis. The epidermis has remained

non-stained practically during all time of the experiment. It is connected with hindered diffusion of aqueous solutions

through hydrophobic stratum corneum* barrier. Diffusion coefficient of MB within the skin in vitro has been estimated.

Low values of the dye diffusion coefficient are connected with the interaction of MB ions with molecules of proteins in

tissue."

 

Even after hours soaking in methylene blue, the paper you provided shows that there was no observable diffusion of methylene blue through the epidermis** at all.

All observed diffusion occurred through the sides of the methylene blue skin samples, the surgically exposed dermis.

 

You've provided evidence with this reference, and very clear evidence, that your product will not penetrate the skin with any significance at all.....unless you cut the skin to expose the dermis. This is also consistent with the evidence provided in the main body of the paper.

 

This is also consistent to my personal observations that I've been posting to this thread.

 

Selling something that does not appear to have any value attributable to your claimed active ingredient, even "at cost" is still selling snake oil.

 

You may indeed be a great guy, but I have to call B.S. on your claims for your product based only on the very paper you provided to justify your claims of efficacy. 

 

 

* The stratum corneum is the outermost layer of the epidermis, consisting of dead cells (corneocytes). This layer is composed of 15–20 layers of flattened cells with no nuclei and cell organelles.

 

**The epidermis is the outer layer of the three layers that make up the skin, the inner layers being the dermis and hypodermis

 

 

 

At this point I'm writing you off as a crackpot obsessive. You don't understand the paper you are quoting, as evidenced by you quoting something you think is a knockout argument, but is in fact no such thing (low diffusion rates are not a problem given the low threshold at which therapeutic effects are observed). You seem fixated on the notion that MB does not diffuse into skin via the epidermis at all, and as such are advocating that people effectively tattoo their skin with extremely high concentrations of MB; which as you aptly demonstrated may be something to consider for someone looking to get a part in an Avatar sequel.

 

Anyway, that's the last post I'll be making here on this or any other topic. 

[The Capybara]

I am indeed obsessive about trying to find a truth in all this.

 

"low diffusion rates are not a problem"

Maybe, but no observable diffusion through the epidermis was seen in the paper you provided.

That is a problem; a big problem. Just read and understand the paper(s) you provide.

 

The petty personal attack I'll ignore.

 

[Lady4T]

I did mention sometime ago in this thread that I had formulated a methylene blue skin cream which provides a continual release. I sell this at cost on eBay

 

https://www.ebay.co....tm/322976577533

 

Oh, I wasn't aware that you had already started to sell it.

Any special discount for willing Longecity guinea pigs? 

 

And as for the discussion regarding diffusion into skin... this is all so new... researchers seem to find new effects of MB in a wide variety of biological tissues. Dosages are all over the place, and the effects can be beneficial or detrimental depending on the dosage.  So, it's all very experimental.

[QuestforLife]

Are we really sure that MB does not penetrate the epidermis and all diffusion is really via the exposed sides of the dermis? That seems like a pretty big error for the other paper (the Nature one) to make. And in fact Figure 4b of that paper would suggest that you (Capybara) are incorrect - they clearly cover the sides of the sample.

 

Edited by QuestforLife, 15 February 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[The Capybara]

The two papers are investigating two different issues, but compliment one another.

 

The Nature paper is looking at the effects of methylene blue on actively growing skin cells in culture, fibroblasts (which generate collagen).

They use cells that exist in the deeper layers of the skin, but it lacked the real life barrier cells in the stratum corneum.

 

The Russian paper investigated MB diffusion in real skin in culture.

 

The first paper suggests that if you can get the MB to the living cells of the skin it is likely to have a positive effect.

The second paper found that in real skin, MB just doesn't make it past the outer protective layer of the skin; the stratum corneum, suggesting that a cream is likely totally ineffective unless you can compromise the stratum corneum.

 

You can possibly compromise the stratum corneum by adding something to the cream, but I haven't found anything so far that works.

You can also get past the stratum corneum by mechanically bypassing it, which I did by needling in MB.

The other possible option is to simply treat the skin my allowing the MB to reach the skin via the vascular system, by ingesting MB orally.

 

At this point, no cream is likely to be effective.

[QuestforLife]

The two papers are investigating two different issues, but compliment one another.

 

The Nature paper is looking at the effects of methylene blue on actively growing skin cells in culture, fibroblasts (which generate collagen).

They use cells that exist in the deeper layers of the skin, but it lacked the real life barrier cells in the stratum corneum.

 

Actually the EFT-412 3D skin model they used did include the stratum corneum. The main changes seen by treatment were in the thickness and hydration of the fibroplast layer, so it looks as if MB can penetrate the stratum corneum.

 

On the downside, they treated the skin model with MB for two whole weeks, so obviously the diffusion is very slow and this may not be practical with a cream.

[The Capybara]

I stand corrected.

The skin used in the Nature study was not actual skin.

It was a skin model made entirely through tissue culture techniques.

Most importantly: "These models though consistent in permeability and responsiveness, have a limitation of possessing weak barrier function."

This statement applied to cultured full skin models. 

[eugenetk]

Hey all, just made an account to reply to the thread. So I've been applying methylene blue for a month or two now, around 1.0uM concentration I think. I can't be sure it's made a difference since I'm also using tretinoin 0.05%. 

 

I'm curious about trying the microneedling with it though - I have an electronic microneedling (Derminator) tool I've used monthly to treat acne scars. I may go ahead and try microneedling w/ the methylene blue solution on my forearms to see how my skin reacts, w/ a split-test between the solution and my usual saline spray.

Edited by eugenetk, 15 February 2018 - 05:07 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Sounds like I wasted about $50 experimenting with this MB then. I thought anything below a molecular weight of 500 or so would pass through skin easily. Let us know what happens with the injections, I'm not sure what skin sites you're using but it looks like your leg from the picture. Not sure what kind of changes you'd expect to see in that location. Most people want to target their face and injecting something that turns your face blue or creates a big blue dot at the injection site is a bit.... well... problematic. At least for the period of time that it's there until it fades.

Edited by Nate-2004, 15 February 2018 - 07:20 PM.

[The Capybara]

I am testing the needling on my inner forearm.

It appears that the deep blue methylene blue color within the skin begins to noticeably fade by the second day.

It's the scab that traps some of the color that stays, making it really difficult to tell when the color inside the skin has totally faded.

The practical upside to this is that the majority of the cosmetic downtime to this needling thing may be waiting for the scab to drop off, and not the blueing of the skin.

It's likely not going to be any worse than ordinary needling from what I can tell so far.

This may make this a viable treatment if you don't really tear into the skin with excessive needling like I did.

I really pushed it so that any problems would likely show up in this preliminary test, and is within the norm of what is done in a dermatologist's office, but most certainly at the upper end of aggressive treatments.

 

eugenetk: You may want to wait until my scab falls off and I report any positive and negative changes, or not. I've done modest needling with MB prior to this test without any issue at all. In that case, I believe it took under two days for the blue to totally fade under the skin. It was far too sparse a treated area, and too shallow, to report any observable changes

[Nate-2004]

So basically it'd probably take a weekend of alone time if you do it on your face lol.

[dazed1]

Nothing beats CO2 oils for skin health, i have tried hundreds of high end cremes, they are laughable.

 

What you need is a carrying agent, like avocado (refined) oil, and CO2 extracts disolved in it.

 

The CO2 i recommend are,

 

Blue Chamomile

Turmeric

Boswellia

Callendula

 

Ratio, 1 to MAX 5% CO2, into avocado oil base, freshly exfoliated face, dubbed with tissue, when its dump after shower/shave, you apply around 5-6 drops from the mixture, done.

 

To make it simple, you put 2 matchstick size (size of a rice grain) of both Blue chamomile, and calendula, and 5 drops of turmeric, and 10 of boswellia into the base = 50ml avocado, shake vigorously for 30 sec, repeat until completely dissolved.

 

 

P.S. The base, MUST be avocado, since its one of the only oils who can penetrate deep into the layers, without pore clogging. It is also full of vitamin E, and its extremely stable.

 

P.P.S. You do not need or must to exfoliate, i only recommend the first time to do it.

Edited by dazed1, 16 February 2018 - 04:02 AM.

[happy lemon]

To me, no topical product can "rejuvenate" aging skin. 

 

All creams and serums can only at most brighten our skin, clear acne and reduce oxidative stress.

 

I have been using Retin-A (made by Johnson & Johnson, not generic ones) every night for 6-7 consecutive years.  I see no improvement of my sagging skin.  One thing I see is how dehydrated & dry my skin is.

 

If you guys want to thicken, plump up & tighten your skin, based on my experience, dermarolling / needling is one the effective and low cost method.

 

Four years ago, I started to do dermarolling (1 mm) every month and it lasted for 3 years, I could see my skin was plumped but not to the extent that I wanted.

 

Last year, I followed the protocol of Dr. Des Fernandes - (1 mm) needling at a weeks interval & it needs 6 sessions.  Take a rest of few weeks and start another course of treatment.

 

After a year of dermarolling, I was happy with the results - my skin was thickened and tightened.  Sagging was much improved.

 

You may wonder how I looked like before and after the needling.

 

I had a deep furrow like the lady in the link.

 

http://www.flexeffect.com/kay/

 

Now, almost all furrows were gone & my skin was much tightened. My cheeks were plumped up

 

Indeed, Dr. Des Fernandes encourages 2 needling treatment a week to achieve better results; if we cannot do it, he recommends 6 treatments in 5 weeks.

 

 

In addition, he suggests Vitamin A & Vitamin C

 

In his book "Vitamin A".

 

"Immediately after the needling session, patients should ideally use sonophoresis with selected peptides to enhance collagen production. After or instead of peptides, iontophoresis with Vit A and C is recommended LED with 633 and 830 nm immediately after is also helpful."

 

In view of his recommendation, I use the Quantum Warp 10 & Merbe (sonophoresis &, iontophoresis) right after needling.

 

Collagen needs 6 to 11 months to build up, so don't get despaired if you don't see any improvement.

 

You may get more info of needling from this clinic too (one of the staff is Dr. Des Fernandes).

 

http://www.rskinscie...l-skin-needling

[The Capybara]

This thread is really departing from the topic of methylene blue and the skin.

[happy lemon]

This thread is really departing from the topic of methylene blue and the skin.

 

I just wanted to let you all know that there was no Fountain of Youth in a bottle.  Don't harbor any high hope that MB can do miracles.

[QuestforLife]

I just wanted to let you all know that there was no Fountain of Youth in a bottle. Don't harbor any high hope that MB can do miracles.

I'd agree that creams currently cannot give you the solution that dermaneedling possibly can, but the point of this thread is to try and work out how to replicate the effects of the MB Nature study on a skin model, which would be quite revolutionary for aging skin, on actual skin where we can't bathe in MB all day long. I'm not ready to give up on that idea yet.

[Nate-2004]

Every time people show me before and after pics they're often like pictures of bigfoot or UFOs. The lighting is bad, it's in a different place, the angle is different, the pixel quality is lower or higher in one or the other. It's sketchy at best. They make no effort to replicate the same conditions of the original photo. Even the color of a shirt can make a difference in how skin appears.

 

When I see derma rolling before and after pictures I don't see a difference. I think it's subjective and likely a placebo. That woman "kay" linked earlier above is a prime example of this lack of difference. She still looks the same, no offense.

 

Take any actor or actress, Natalie Portman for example, take a good look at her back when episode 3 (Revenge of the Sith) came out (I know, there is no episode 3), but that was the beginning of her long career. What are the differences you see between then and now? They are there, but subtle.

 

I asked earlier in this thread I think, or perhaps the other one on MB, whether anyone thought methylene blue would restore the malar fat pad and nasolabial fold firmness and elasticity and collagen quality to any degree of decades? I've seen nothing so far. Even the recent advent of "vampire facelifts" are limited at best.

 

What are we expecting MB to do in vivo?

Edited by Nate-2004, 16 February 2018 - 02:09 PM.

[QuestforLife]

Well MB increases skin thickness in the Nature paper, so that should help a little with everything. From photos I've seen needling can help with nasolabial fold marks.


I've got a three month experiment running at the moment with the aim of increasing my subcutaneous fat layer back to what it was 5-10 years ago. This should go a long way to restoring youthful looks, as well as improving insulin sensitivity. 3 weeks in and results so far are encouraging. Once I've got further with it (and longecity lets me post more regularly), I'll give some more details.

[RIURAO]

Hi all again, I am ready to start  my self  experiment, but i am a little bit lost, as I am totally ignorant about molarity.

 

I have 25gr MB at 99,99%, and 25gr Hialuronic filling spheres.

 

What I understand is that i need to achive  0,5-1µmol/l then, if i want to achieve this concentration i understand that i should mix 1mg in one liter and them take 1ml and dissolve it again in 1 liter to achieve the needed concentration of 1µmol/liter ?

 

then: 

1. Prepare a cream for direct aplication with the 25gr. hialuronic filling spheres and 25ml of distilled water and MB at 1µmol/l

2. Prepare a Soy lecitin based cream for dermaroll ( 0,75mm deep) of distilled water and MB at 1µmol/l .

 

Is this calculation Ok?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by RIURAO, 22 February 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[The Capybara]

Here's a quick update on needling a USP grade methylene blue solution (60mg/ml) into the skin of my inner forearm using sterile 2mm needles. The unpigmented spot seen in the first image was the control, which was similarly needled with only saline solution. The healing time between these pictures was 11 days.

Attached Files

•  IMG_0834.jpg   68.39KB   2 downloads
•  IMG_0860.JPG   141.2KB   2 downloads

[QuestforLife]

I've been using Vegacosmetic's Methylene Blue skin cream for about a month and have been impressed with the results so far.

 

I am 39yo and have noticed a general drying out of my skin and a deepening of wrinkles from about the age 35. This has been exacerbated by me losing weight over that period, including subcutaneous fat.  

 

The cream has clearly increased the hydration of the skin on my face, despite not being a moisturizing cream. I have been applying it primarily to my forehead, which has some fairly deep horizontal 'surprise' lines, and to my crow's feet area and upper cheeks.

 

It has a mild detergent smell and sometimes causes a very slight stinging around the eyes, but causes no adverse reaction - and I often react to skin creams. The cream is blue but this colour dissipates as you rub it into the skin. I have been applying it after washing in the morning and also in the evening, but I avoid putting it on right before bed otherwise it can lightly mark the pillowcase.

 

With Mitolab's (very expensive) cream I noticed it coming back out of my skin if I went swimming or had a shower, even hours after application, but have not noticed that with this formulation. My interpretation of this is that it has been more fully and deeply absorbed.

 

I have also applied the cream to the back of my hands as they are challenging test case - the skin there is very dry and rather wrinkled for my age. To begin with I thought it might making the skin on the back of my hands even drier  (as I've said the cream is not moisturizing in itself) but after continued use my hands have improved in appearance: the skin still has a fine, broken up appearance close up, but seems plumper and more hydrated.

 

Vegacosmetic's cream is very inexpensive especially when you consider I expect it to last for at least another 2 months if I continue to use it twice a day. I would encourage other Longecity members to try it out and report back.

 

 

Edited by QuestforLife, 08 March 2018 - 03:39 PM.

[tuesday]

@questforlife  does the vega cosmetics cream say what the ingredients are? i want to make sure i won't break out from it

 

also i just ordered the 10 mg MB solution from IRC.BIO to make my own serum before reading this thread and finding out there was literally an entire cream already lol

 

also if anyone can tell me exactly what to do with a 10 mg/mL solution (in deionized water) that would be awesome because there is a lot of different calculations in these threads and i'm not sure what to go with! i was planning on diluting it somehow with distilled water and then just mixing that with a matrixyl 3000 / argireline peptide / vitamin c mix serum. 

 

also, if this is taken orally as well, would we factor in the amount absorbed through the skin when deciding on oral dosage? 

[QuestforLife]

Nope, sadly he's keeping quiet about how he's formulated his skin cream. I'm am nonetheless very impressed by it. I'm still only half way through the pot.

I am now relatively happy with the state of my skin, though I am attacking this problem on multiple fronts, so cannot give all the credit to this cream. I do intend to buy further pots when this one is finished.