32 replies to this topic

[mccoy]

Hi all,

my autistic son started displaying destructive and dangerous aggressive behaviour a few months ago, after a long remission due to behavioural therapy. At 13 years of age, almost 14, he's 5'10" and 240 lbs heavy, overwhelmingly strong.

 

I started  the specific protocol suggested by Dr Rimland: B6 megadoses +Mg + TMG (600 mg d-1 + Mg 450 mg d-1 + betaine/TMG 600 mg d-1). One concern of mine is the B6 dosage which is 2 or 3 times higher than the upper threshold advised by agencies.

 

The protocol seemed to improve his behaviour, but one month after an epylectic seizure occurred (first instance ever observed).

 

Now, autistic subjects have an higher risk of seizure, but I'm concerned about a possible causation between B6 megadoses and the seizure. 

 

Does anyone have specific experience/insight into that? My insight into supplementation is very limited but this is an extreme situation which calls for extreme remedies.

 

I've started back the protocol halving the B6 and TMG dosage. Drugs for epilepsy have not been administered yet, since opinions are contrasting and  I'm waiting to consult with a very experienced specialist. 

 

One possibility in this juncture could be to decrease B6 dosage to the maximum threshold of 100 or 200 mg d-1 and see if there is some effect on behaviour yet without the reoccurrance of seizures (again, it is not sure at all that there is causation between supplements and seizure occurrance, here I'm just evaluating mere possibilities).

 

Thanks for any feedback.

Edited by mccoy, 07 June 2017 - 10:13 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm! Puzzling... I'm reading up on this, and what I can find, is the fact that the LACK of Pyridoxine in diet actually lowers seizure threshold, so in theory, your son should be LESS susceptible to seizures with high doses of Pyridoxine in his body! : O

 

However, the dosages you're using is immensely high - halving the dosage seems like a good first measure, I would wait before I lower the dosage further, just to see what happens - 50% less than before is quite a difference in dosage. If you're still seeing improvements in behaviour, it might be worth it to remain at 300 mg per day.
 

CONVULSIONS IN YOUNG INFANTS AS A RESULT OF PYRIDOXINE (VITAMIN B6) DEFICIENCY

http://jamanetwork.c...abstract/291289

 

Treatment of Infantile Spasms with High-Dosage Vitamin B₆

http://onlinelibrary....tb00458.x/full

 

Postneonatal Vitamin B₆-Dependent Epilepsy

http://pediatrics.aa.../90/2/221.short

 

Granted, these studies are all on infants, or toddlers, so it's hard to say if this translates into adolescent individuals, but they all imply that Vitamin B6 is anticonvulsive. However, none of the studies use such high dosages... 300% of the recommended limit was not utilized, to my knowledge.

 

 

Have you considered another option? NAC - N-Actetylcysteine has some preliminary evidence showing efficacy at aggression in ASD, and it should be possible to combine it with, say, 200% of the daily intake of Vitamin B6, thereby tackling the problem from another angle, yet retaining a good side-effects-profile.

 

Granted, the evidence is thin, but considering you're using megadoses of Vit B6, you should be open to this as well, as the evidence is EVEN THINNER for Vit B6 and aggression.

 

Aggression in autism spectrum disorder: presentation and treatment options

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4922773/

 

 

Pharmacologic Treatment of Severe Irritability and Problem Behaviors in Autism: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis

http://pediatrics.aa...f?download=true

 

 

 

BTW - I recommend that you contact the user Jack_Black on these forums, because he has significant experience with family-members with similar difficulties such as your son, as well as a significant amount of knowledge regarding the various compounds used for the treatment of said symptoms, as well as an overall GOOD grasp the subject matter.

[mccoy]

Thanks very much St.
Ironically enough i've been reading your post and related links in the emergency room after I broke a couple of toes dealing with my son in an aggressive fit.
I wanted to avoid risperidone because of weight gain. Nac sounds promising but there
are few studies. I'm going and try and get In touch with Jack Black

[ta5]

That is a high dose of B6. I would guess he's taking Pyridoxine, since you didn't specify the form. You know what they say: the dose makes the poison. Everything is toxic at a high enough dose. Mayoclinic says, "Avoid in doses higher than 200 milligrams daily, due to the risk of nerve pain and seizures." I don't know which reference that came from.

 

It's not the same problem as your son, but... Less than that much B6 (as Pyridoxamine) gave me burning/tingling peripheral neuropathy in my feet. I cut back, it got better. A year later, I upped it again, and it came back again. So, I'm pretty sure it was the B6. Luckily, it was not permanent. I stay under 300mg/day now. There's speculation that Pyridoxamine cannot cause neuropathy, and that only Pyridoxine is toxic to nerves, but not in my experience. I never megadosed P-5-P, so I don't know about that.

 

The Mg and TMG doses look fine to me. I've been taking 6.4 grams (6400mg) of TMG per day since Aug 2015. No problems. No benefits either that I notice, sadly. It hasn't lowered my homocysteine much, if at all. Up to 20g/day have been studied and there's minimal benefit from exceeding 150 mg/kg, which your son is no where near. But, it's always possible your son could have a bad response to it.

[jack black]

BTW - I recommend that you contact the user Jack_Black on these forums, because he has significant experience with family-members with similar difficulties such as your son, as well as a significant amount of knowledge regarding the various compounds used for the treatment of said symptoms, as well as an overall GOOD grasp the subject matter.

 

I'm afraid my experience is not relevant here. The troubled person in my family did get better a lot mentally since she was put on progesterone-based contraceptive and her stress level decreased after she managed to graduate from school. In retrospect, estrogen, stress, and her COMT mutations (all 3 of them) was a bad combo. While I considered ASD in the past, now I don't know what she has/had and resolved to accept it was not diagnosable in the existing psych dogma.

 

BTW, I have no experience in megadosing anything, but megadosing B6 sounds like a bad idea, since it's known to be toxic in high doses.

 

 

[mccoy]

@ ta5: yes it is pyridoxine. The dose was huge but the source (Dr Bernard Rimland), although the method is empirical, appears credible. It appeared to work in limiting inappropriate behaviour,after the seizure the precautionary principle though suggests me to lower the dosage by an order of magnitude at least, your anecdotal observations also confirmed that high doses may have collateral effects. I'll be administering no more than 60 mg per day, keeping Mg and TMG, althoug I'm going to halve the latter. No megadoses, no higher-than-suggested dosages to play it safe. 

 

@ jack black: thanks for chiming anyway, hormones (surging testosterone) might well play a role in my son's behaviour but AFAIK there is no way to deal with it

 

I'm still at an impasse presently. Heard one of the best specialists, suggested me not to administer Depakine now (the epilepsy drug suggested by hospital doctors) and to administer risperidol only if the situation is very serious, since my son displays obesity and these drugs tend to increase weight. Fixed a spcialistic visit in one of the medical centers with greater experience.

 

Am thinking about adding some n-Acetyl Cisteine to the supplemental treatment since it sounds unoffensive and am in the process to review some other possible supplementation suggested to autistics, like zinc and vitamin D3, they might favour an overall better mental balance.

 

Also, like my wife suggests, I should learn to use appropriate strategies when aggressive moods erupt. The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

[jack black]

Also, like my wife suggests, I should learn to use appropriate strategies when aggressive moods erupt. The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

Also, like my wife suggests, I should learn to use appropriate strategies when aggressive moods erupt. The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

Also, like my wife suggests, I should learn to use appropriate strategies when aggressive moods erupt. The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

[jack black]

The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

[gamesguru]

i believe it's a negative allosteric modulator at the calcium channel site^[1].. see the attached study.  unlike sodium channel inhibitors, i think it has a undesired retroflexive effect on Comt, vmat, mao, methylation etc etc, but that can be balanced out with other supps

being widely distributed in common foods at modest doses... fish (53%), beef (44%), chicken (40%), potato (32%), sunflower seed (28%), banana (25%), bean (10%), onion (10%) etc etc... i wouldn't imagine deficiencies of this one are terribly common

doses above 25mg arrent recommended^[2]

Attached Files

•  Calcium channel antagonists for the treatment of bipolar disorder.pdf   191.65KB   7 downloads

[jack black]

sorry for the above, there was a software glitch and got error codes when i clicked submit (a few times too may).

 

BTW, I have been taking NAC for months and it's beneficial, but in a subtle way, and it took months to realize there was a difference. low dose lithium is great too, but it takes about a week to get full effects.

Edited by jack black, 09 June 2017 - 06:50 PM.

[mccoy]

 

The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

 

 

The one they typically prescribe here is risperidol, which turns out to cause significant weight gain. I don't know about other atypical anti-psychotics, the ones mentioned in the literature linked by stinkorninjor seem to be not so much experimented, or not so effective. NAC is a promising compound, although there haven't been many trails and the dosage reported in literature is pretty high.

Edited by mccoy, 12 June 2017 - 11:55 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

The other day I broke two toes and a previous day I nearly broke one finger. It is hard to deal with 240 pounds of fury when you cannot counteract with pure violence.

 

I'm not an expert, but don't they prescribe atypical anti-psychotics for anger in ASD?
 

 

 

The one they typically prescribe here is risperidol, which turns out to cause significant weight gain. I don't know about other atypical anti-psychotics, the ones mentioned in the literature linked by stinkorninjor seem to be not so much experimented, or not so effective. NAC is a promising compound, although there haven't been many trails and the dosage reported in literature is pretty high.

 

 

Considering the severity of the issues you and your son face - broken bones and all, then Risperidone might be the only valid option.

 

However, perhaps the weight gain can be circumvented, by applying another drug to cancel out those effects?

 

 

The combination of Naltrexone and Bupropion (Contave, MySimba) could perhaps be that effect. I believe there is also some potential evidence of Naltrexone being useful for Autism as well, isn't there?

 

The only problem I can see with this, is that alas, Bupropion is known to cause aggressive behaviour... I myself experienced this, to a fairly shocking degree. So, yeah... tricky! But, perhaps you could go with only Naltrexone?

 

https://en.wikipedia...pion/naltrexone

 

 

Here, check out some of the newer, atypical anti-obesity medications, meant for diabetes.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Pramlintide

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Metreleptin

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Liraglutide

 

Especially Liraglutide, it should solve the problem of weight-gain, if combined with something like Naltrexone as well. Your son would feel sated 24/7! = )

 

 

I understand if this doesn't sound promising or feasible though...

 

I believe I read a study btw, which showed that the reason why antipsychotics cause weight-gain is because they send the body into involuntary ketosis! : O Glucose-metabolism crawls to a halt - but the patient still eats as normally, meaning glucose-rich food - the body then sends it all into reserve.

 

Perhaps switch your son to Risperidone, HIGH dosage - and then start him on a strict ketogenic diet? I understand how difficult that may be, with someone who is autistic though - because they want to eat what they always eat, they don't want to change things.

 

I believe there is also some preliminary data implying that ketogenic diet has positive effects on Autism as well, though - so that's certainly another plus.

 

Well, I've given you a few ideas and options here, hopefully you can make sense of them and try them out as soon as possible! = )

[iseethelight]

High dose b6 makes me angry and nervous. B6 will overdrive the CBS pathway causing increase ammonia production and low methylation due to most the homocysteine becoming cysteine instead of methionine. This can have a domino effect of adverse reactions. Either stop the b6 megadoses or take high doses b12 and folate in addition to balance the pathways (MTR, MTRR, CBS)..

[mccoy]

@  Stinkorninjor: thanks for the additional input, I'm going to meditate on that. Luckily, after the latest spate of aggressiveness, the behaviour has returned normal, as normal goes for an autistic individual. In a drugless condition, there is no way I could make my son eat a ketogenic diet. With an high risperidone dosage, maybe I could try. I'm currently trying to have my son avoid sugars, increase vegetables and only whole grain cereals, adding nuts and beans. A pretty healthy, hi-fiber diet overall. I tried previously to have him eliminate gluten and casein, with no beneficial effects.

I was not aware of those antiobesity drugs, interesting stuff, even more so for obese adults who cannot loose weight by dietary intervention (some people asked me).

 

@ iseethelight: I aloready stopped B6 high dosage, to 1/10 or less its original amount. I'm below the 100-200 mg/d max tolerable dose and that sounds definitely safer. I left Betain chlorhydrate 300 mg/d and Mg 500 mg/d, added zinc, D3 and K2 in moderate doses. Currently searching for other potentially useful supplements. There are no reliable functional medicine practitioners here that I know, although I'm going to search that as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jiminy Glick]

B6 increases GABA, So maybe look for other things that increase GABA, he can still take B6 but also think about Taurine, Glycine, and Lemon Balm powder. Try Ashwagandha powder as well.

[iseethelight]

@  Stinkorninjor: thanks for the additional input, I'm going to meditate on that. Luckily, after the latest spate of aggressiveness, the behaviour has returned normal, as normal goes for an autistic individual. In a drugless condition, there is no way I could make my son eat a ketogenic diet. With an high risperidone dosage, maybe I could try. I'm currently trying to have my son avoid sugars, increase vegetables and only whole grain cereals, adding nuts and beans. A pretty healthy, hi-fiber diet overall. I tried previously to have him eliminate gluten and casein, with no beneficial effects.

I was not aware of those antiobesity drugs, interesting stuff, even more so for obese adults who cannot loose weight by dietary intervention (some people asked me).

 

@ iseethelight: I aloready stopped B6 high dosage, to 1/10 or less its original amount. I'm below the 100-200 mg/d max tolerable dose and that sounds definitely safer. I left Betain chlorhydrate 300 mg/d and Mg 500 mg/d, added zinc, D3 and K2 in moderate doses. Currently searching for other potentially useful supplements. There are no reliable functional medicine practitioners here that I know, although I'm going to search that as well.

 

100mg is still megadosing. Look up ammonia and autism on google. Too busy to do the research for you...

[mccoy]

 

 

 

 

100mg is still megadosing. Look up ammonia and autism on google. Too busy to do the research for you...

 

 

Thanks Issethelight, I started to search autism+ammonia but it's not easy to distillate useful practical info from the heterogenous material present. Mainly, it's the DAN-oriented school which acts in a very empirical way. 

 

B6: at last I was able to find some authoritative sources on UTL from the European community:

 

TOLERABLE UPPER INTAKE LEVELS FOR VITAMINS AND MINERALS

 

the conclusion on B6 is the following:

 

25 mg upper tolerable level for adults

15 mg for boys 11-14

 

Plus reccomendations:

 

Neurotoxicity has been reported only after prolonged periods of treatment at high doses. The vitamin itself is rapidly eliminated and there is no molecular mechanism to explain the delay between exposure and the development of adverse effects. Information on the mechanism may allow a better understanding of the inter-relationships of the dosage, the duration of intake and the severity of effect. Pyridoxine deficiency has a significant effect on neuronal development (Kirksey et al, 1990), but there are no data on the neuronal toxicity of excessive pyridoxine during development of the nervous system. A major deficit in the database for this vitamin is the absence of information from adequate developmental neurotoxicity studies. Such research would clarify if the dose-response relationship of the developing nervous system is comparable to that indicated by studies in adults. Information on the neurobehavioural development of the offspring of women who become pregnant while taking high-doses of vitamin B6 for pre-menstrual syndrome, or who were intentionally given high doses of B6 during pregnancy (see Ellis, 1987), may provide data relevant to this issue.

 

 

Bottom line, I've been administering too high doses of B6 to my son according to the guidelines of the European Food Safety Authority, 2006. The short timespan though makes unlikely any occurrance of (acute) neuropathy. The jury is still out on the seizure, IMO there is a low probability of cause-effect relationship, we cannot rule it out though.

Of course, the reccomendations are valid for healthy people, not for autistic ones (already affected by neuropathy), where the tolerable quantities might be different. All seems to be a shot in the dark.

Edited by mccoy, 21 June 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[mccoy]

Update: Yesterday I went to the epilepsy specialists, they succeded in having an EEG done and pronounced against the presence of typical epilepsy pattern in cerebral waves. Bottomline: presently no anti-seizure drugs were prescribed.

 

They also suggested  abilify  (aripiprazole) as a drug which shouldn't cause weight gain, but the recent literature previously posted underlines that the difference between risperidone and aripiprazole in causing weight gain is not significant. That is; clinical studies proved that aripiprazole as well can cause significant weight gain, contrary to common medical beliefs.

 

I'll open another thread on aggressive behaviour and supplementation strategies. I'm reluctant to start administering antipsychotics to a young boy.

Edited by mccoy, 04 July 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[jack black]

Have you looked into NAC or inositol? Both are known to be helpful in autism, even though probably not strong enough for your kid.

Edited by jack black, 04 July 2017 - 11:38 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

TL;DR all the irrelevant nonsense replies.

Listen to me because I know what I am talking about, I have the same issues with irritability as in autism (same disease models).

 

Glutamate tends to give the male-typical rage where you want to smash something or someone to pieces, whereas serotonin induced irritability is the feminine type where everyone is annoying to you but you rather want to claw at everyone with your bad attitude.

 

In autism they have BOTH high glutamate and high serotonin. (High serotonin may be due to high glutamate). And thus their irritability is due to both neurotransmitters.

 

What you need to do to treat your autistic son is use creatine. Creatine uses the same transporter (one of them) as glutamate. Creatine is extremely effective against glutamate induced rage.

For serotonin induced rage it's another issue and it's much more difficult to treat. Ginkgo Biloba does work for this because it's a 5ht2a antagonist, which is what causes the serotonin irritability. mglur5 causes the glutamate rage.

 

Stay the hell away from acetyl-cysteine because it activates the mglur5 receptor AND IT DOES NOT TREAT AUTISM WHATSOEVER. It's one of the dumbest proposed treatments I've ever heard. It's like trying to treat a forest fire by pouring huge loads of a flammable liquid on the fire (which firefighters do sometimes).

Stay the hell away from vitamin b6 because it increases serotonin significantly. Vitamin b6 is completely useless for autism. Dumbest suggestion to give to someone with autism, to take vitamin B6.

 

ALL you need is creatine and a 5ht2a antagonist. That's ALL you need. But most touted 5ht2a antagonists don't work because they're either too weak or have too strong side-effects associated with other binding profiles.

 

 

[jack black]

TL;DR all the irrelevant nonsense replies.

Listen to me because I know what I am talking about, I have the same issues with irritability

 

 

 

yeah, we noticed your rages, alright.
 

 

Stay the hell away from acetyl-cysteine because it activates the mglur5 receptor AND IT DOES NOT TREAT AUTISM WHATSOEVER. It's one of the dumbest proposed treatments I've ever heard. It's like trying to treat a forest fire by pouring huge loads of a flammable liquid on the fire (which firefighters do sometimes).

 

look, i'm not going to sit idly when you spread your misinformation.

 

evidence shows that NAC can be helpful in ASD: https://med.stanford...tudy-finds.html

it's not confirmed by all studies, but at least they didn't report ASD getting worse: https://molecularaut...3229-016-0088-6

 

please show us links proving "acetyl-cysteine [...] activates the mglur5 receptor." the fact that you found it in your head don't prove it's a real fact.

 

i think the OP is long gone, but in case he hangs around, those are additional solutions for aggressiveness that i saw in a book "bad boys, bad men" a while ago:

lithium, propranolol, all anti-convulsion drugs, buspar, and trazadone.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

TL;DR all the irrelevant nonsense replies.

Listen to me because I know what I am talking about, I have the same issues with irritability

 

 

 

yeah, we noticed your rages, alright.
 

 

Stay the hell away from acetyl-cysteine because it activates the mglur5 receptor AND IT DOES NOT TREAT AUTISM WHATSOEVER. It's one of the dumbest proposed treatments I've ever heard. It's like trying to treat a forest fire by pouring huge loads of a flammable liquid on the fire (which firefighters do sometimes).

 

look, i'm not going to sit idly when you spread your misinformation.

 

evidence shows that NAC can be helpful in ASD: https://med.stanford...tudy-finds.html

it's not confirmed by all studies, but at least they didn't report ASD getting worse: https://molecularaut...3229-016-0088-6

 

please show us links proving "acetyl-cysteine [...] activates the mglur5 receptor." the fact that you found it in your head don't prove it's a real fact.

 

i think the OP is long gone, but in case he hangs around, those are additional solutions for aggressiveness that i saw in a book "bad boys, bad men" a while ago:

lithium, propranolol, all anti-convulsion drugs, buspar, and trazadone.

 

 

Propanolol is actually highly dose-specific - I looked into it quite a bit when I was still looking for treatment for Borderline PD - it actually affects the CNS, and not just the PNS, when taken at a specific dosage - it then inhibits activity in the Amygdala, lowering emotional tone.

 

Precisely what some people need! ^^

 

Actually, make that a *lot* of people...

 

 

Google for Propanolol/amygdala and you will find the rat-studies on the subject, which establishes the model - then google on the formula for recalculating dosages from rats to humans.

 

If I recall correctly, the dosage was 20 mg for a 60 kilos human.

However, it changes depending on the weight of the human, so obviously, if you weigh more, you're going to need more... The OP's son probably weighs around 90 kilos, so he's going to need quite a bit more...
 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

TL;DR all the irrelevant nonsense replies.

Listen to me because I know what I am talking about, I have the same issues with irritability

 

 

 

yeah, we noticed your rages, alright.
 

 

Stay the hell away from acetyl-cysteine because it activates the mglur5 receptor AND IT DOES NOT TREAT AUTISM WHATSOEVER. It's one of the dumbest proposed treatments I've ever heard. It's like trying to treat a forest fire by pouring huge loads of a flammable liquid on the fire (which firefighters do sometimes).

 

look, i'm not going to sit idly when you spread your misinformation.

 

evidence shows that NAC can be helpful in ASD: https://med.stanford...tudy-finds.html

it's not confirmed by all studies, but at least they didn't report ASD getting worse: https://molecularaut...3229-016-0088-6

 

please show us links proving "acetyl-cysteine [...] activates the mglur5 receptor." the fact that you found it in your head don't prove it's a real fact.

 

i think the OP is long gone, but in case he hangs around, those are additional solutions for aggressiveness that i saw in a book "bad boys, bad men" a while ago:

lithium, propranolol, all anti-convulsion drugs, buspar, and trazadone.

 

Look it up yourself, maybe? It's on Wikipedia:

"L-cysteine also serves as a precursor to cystine which in turn serves as a substrate for the cystine-glutamate antiporter on astrocytes hence increasing glutamate release into the extracellular space. This glutamate in turn acts on mGluR_2/3 receptors, and at higher doses of acetylcysteine, mGluR₅.^[68][69]"

^{https://en.wikipedia...harmacodynamics}

 

What happened to your memory? We've already been through this before. This is old news.

 

Why would a GLUTAMATE RELEASE ENCHANCER and GLUTAMATE RECEPTOR AGONIST work in a disease characterized by HIGH LEVELS OF GLUTAMATE  and GLUTAMATE OVERACTIVITY? It makes literally no sense.

It's SUPPOSED to work by depleting glutamate and affecting sulfur levels, and potentially via a third spurious method, but the first mechanism of action takes MONTHS. It's literally like taking an SSRI to treat serotonin syndrome, the most retarded choice you could ever make. It's so incompetent and stupid a treatment choice that psychiatrists might even go with it!

 

Gaba agonists can also produce psychosis and associated irritability so one should be very careful with those drugs. As for lithium, no it doesn't work for irritability it just worsens it. I've taken it myself for a long period of time and it's an awful thing to take if you are sensitive to serotonin, in spite the many suggestions on this forum that it may be anti-serotonergic.
 

[jack black]

^{https://en.wikipedia...harmacodynamics}

 It's on Wikipedia "L-cysteine also serves as a precursor to cystine which in turn serves as a substrate for the cystine-glutamate antiporter on astrocytes hence increasing glutamate release into the extracellular space. This glutamate in turn acts on mGluR_2/3 receptors, and at higher doses of acetylcysteine, mGluR₅.^[68][69]"

 

What happened to your memory? We've already been through this before. This is old news.

 

Why would a GLUTAMATE RELEASE ENCHANCER and GLUTAMATE RECEPTOR AGONIST work in a disease characterized by HIGH LEVELS OF GLUTAMATE  and GLUTAMATE OVERACTIVITY? It makes literally no sense.

It's SUPPOSED to work by depleting glutamate and affecting sulfur levels, and potentially via a third spurious method, but the first mechanism of action takes MONTHS. It's literally like taking an SSRI to treat serotonin syndrome, the most retarded choice you could ever make. It's so incompetent and stupid a treatment choice that psychiatrists might even go with it!

 

Gaba agonists can also produce psychosis and associated irritability so one should be very careful with those drugs. As for lithium, no it doesn't work for irritability it just worsens it. I've taken it myself for a long period of time and it's an awful thing to take if you are sensitive to serotonin, in spite the many suggestions on this forum that it may be anti-serotonergic.
 

 

 

fine, in high doses NAC may activate mGluR5, but no one is advocating high doses of NAC here. i'm only aware of high doses of NAC used in tylenol liver toxicity. normally, one takes about 1g NAC/day that i consider a low dose. that dose should only activate mGluR2/3 that are inhibitory for NMDA and results in anti-excitotoxicity and neuroprotection.

basic facts, and you should remember that too. instead you prefer insults.
 

[PeaceAndProsperity]

fine, in high doses NAC may activate mGluR5, but no one is advocating high doses of NAC here. i'm only aware of high doses of NAC used in tylenol liver toxicity. normally, one takes about 1g NAC/day that i consider a low dose. that dose should only activate mGluR2/3 that are inhibitory for NMDA and results in anti-excitotoxicity and neuroprotection.

basic facts, and you should remember that too. instead you prefer insults.

According to the studies I've read it's 3g that's used for autism and 3g is the dose that activates the mglur5 receptors. Acetylcysteine is also an nmda agonist, indirectly or directly.

Even a tiny 100-500mg dosage of nac causes increased levels of serotonin in me.

 

[mccoy]

Latest update: after a particularly furious fit, where my son seemed possessed by a demon, at last I went to a specialist who prescribed risperidone. To my objections that it might increase bodyweight, with calm competence he explained that it constitutes a possible collateral effect but that in his young patients who are sufffering symptoms similar to my son there has not been any such effect. He's one of those clearly experienced, competent and unassuming specialists that at the end you cannot but surrender.

 

That drug is undisputably powerful. Aggressive behaviour totally dissipated with only 6 mg per day (a relatively low dose according to the specialist, considering that my son weighs 120 kg, that is over 250 pounds). The wounds on my son's arms and hands, where he frequently bit himself are healing. Appetite decreased by a factor of 2 or 3, rather than increase. Probably my son is sensitive to the compound, so I'm going to decrease the dosage to 4 mg, since some weird effects are present, like extreme impatience, some obsessive behaviour, sedation. There were also some positive effects, like good and prompt adherence to orders, higher verbality, docility and obedience. 

 

At the end of it, instead than trying alternative routes/drugs/supplements, I'm going to try and optimize the dosage (as low as possible while ensuring the anti-aggressive effects), calibrating it to my son's individual metabolism. It's still soon and I hope there are not going to be surprises and that it is a +1 to mainstream medical science.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mccoy, 24 July 2017 - 12:19 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

6mg of risperidone oral is the max prescribed oral dosage. That's not a low dosage. I have no idea why they would say it's low, maybe they are doing injections.

Risperidone is very slow acting and sits for weeks in fatty tissue, so what the doctors do is slowly increase the dosage over time. Risperidone can be deadly if overdosed on and deadly if you cease the usage too quickly.

There are also concerns that risperidone has permanent effects by permanently inhibiting the serotonin 5ht5 receptor, or whichever it was.

Risperidone lowers self-reliance, causing the patient to be easier to dictate and influence.

 

 

If you really wanted your son the best then you'd have listened to what I told you and not given this crappy drug.

Treating irritability in autism is extremely easy, just try to read, use your eyes and your brain if you can.

Creatine for high glutamate, 5ht2a antagonists for high serotonin. What supplements are 5ht2a antagonists? Ginkgo Biloba? There are many to try.

 

There exists no pharmaceutical drug capable of treating autism, to my knowledge. Some drugs are prescribed for autism but only treat 1 or 2 symptoms.

 

 

[mccoy]

 

 

6mg of risperidone oral is the max prescribed oral dosage. That's not a low dosage. I have no idea why they would say it's low, maybe they are doing injections.

 

The specialist said that, based on my son's bodymass, 16-20 mg is the maximum dosage

 

 

 

Risperidone is very slow acting and sits for weeks in fatty tissue, so what the doctors do is slowly increase the dosage over time. Risperidone can be deadly if overdosed on and deadly if you cease the usage too quickly.

 

The dosage wsas increased in a 3-days timespan. It acted very quickly, from the first 2 mg pill.

 

 

 

There exists no pharmaceutical drug capable of treating autism, to my knowledge. Some drugs are prescribed for autism but only treat 1 or 2 symptoms.

 

Unfortunately that's true. My purpose is to treat just one symptom: aggressivity.

Edited by mccoy, 24 July 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[mccoy]

Update on the Risperidone drug. As feared, it didn't come without collateral effects, which were maybe unforeesen: pronounced obsessive-compulsive behaviour, especially just after intake.

I'm going to decrease the dosage and try and find a balance. Maybe I'll have to change drug. Situation is only marginally better than before. Hunger, contrary to expectations, was decreased. bodyweight remained the same.

[jack black]

I just posted this on hunger, see if relevant: http://www.longecity...ss/#entry823891