65 replies to this topic

[eighthman]

http://www.toukastre...015/GS15-11.pdf

 

I did a search and didn't see this posted.  Pomegranate extracts and collagen cleaving

[Never_Ending]

Very interesting. I wonder the difference between fresh vs extracts/juice made from extracts.

[eighthman]

Seems centered around the 'tannins'.   Can someone explain the negative figures for effectiveness of various extracts, I couldn't understand that.

[Harkijn]

I, too, wish I could understand these figures better. However, the study still motivates to keep on drinking our daily glass of pomegranate juice!

[joelcairo]

Note study shows that gallic acid is especially effective, and it's common in nuts and seeds, including grapeseed extract.

 

Edited by joelcairo, 28 June 2017 - 04:38 PM.

[YOLF]

What about ellagic acid? I see 40% Ellagic Acid extract. Is that it?

[eighthman]

Gallic acid?  In vitro or in vivo?

 

I'm taking ground raspberry seed for the ellagatannins .  No results yet.

[YOLF]

Oh, I thought you were trying to pinpoint gallic acid as the active and were quoting something from the study mentioned by the OP.

[joelcairo]

In terms of AGE crosslink cleaving, "The activity ratio was highest in gallic acid (26.02%) and lowest in ellagic acid (3.24%) among the 16 pomegranate-derived compounds."

 

Gallic acid wasn't the only active component, but it was clearly the strongest, with 8 compounds each having about half its activity.

 

There is also a table of collagen crosslink cleaving activity, and gallic acid oddly has a negative cleaving ratio. Does that mean it causes collagen crosslinking? Is that bad from a health/longevity perspective?

[eighthman]

Exactly!  Anybody got an explanation for the negative cleaving numbers?

[YOLF]

I'm guess that it it's not a typo that this is why they make an ellagic acid extract and not a gallic acid extract. 

[joelcairo]

There are gallic acid extracts, or at least herbal extracts that are standardized to a certain proportion of gallic acid. It seems to be a generally healthful supplement, but I did find another study that indicated that gallic acid binds to collagen in a certain manner and inhibits its breakdown by collagenase. Again, I don't know the potential health costs/benefits of this. For example it might aid in certain types of healing.

 

FWIW, here is the study

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25175201

Edited by joelcairo, 30 June 2017 - 05:50 AM.

[normalizing]

im just curious to ask this, why concentrate on pomegranate specifically when we talk about ellagic and gallic acid, since those two are present universally in all herbs, vegetables and fruits?

[YOLF]

im just curious to ask this, why concentrate on pomegranate specifically when we talk about ellagic and gallic acid, since those two are present universally in all herbs, vegetables and fruits?

There must be some synergy going on with other actives in the pomegranate. It has similar libido enhancing effects compared to Horney Goat Weed (a 30%/20% icarin content HGW is much stronger than Pom Ext.) which enhances stem cell proliferation. Perhaps that process allows more modification to the extracellular matrix or purging of dysfunctional cells? Proliferation of stem cells would enhance the health of the surround cells in the cardiovascular system and could lead to the enhanced elasticity of the CVS that results from the Pom Ext.

 

I've gone ahead and made alot of statements from memory, please just google them... you might just turn up related articles that add to the discussion.

[normalizing]

^ personally i have had both, grape seed extract, pomegranate extract, juices without alcohol, and ALSO alcoholic drinks containing them, pomegranate wine and grape wine. 

AND my conclusion is wine or grapes and grape seed in general is much more noticeable, potent, than pomegranate juice, wine or fruit. now its difficult to explain this "noticeable" feeling, but you can definitely feel something changing in you, usually better general health. NOW, i think from the juices, fruits, extracts and wines, pomegranate wine is the best of its variables but still very low compared to good quality grape based wine. thats my conclusion from years of drinking and trying these two fruits.

[YOLF]

Well, they all have a different spectrum of effects. You could use your reaction to them as part of a diagnosis strategy or a way to better understand your health in general.

[normalizing]

well, i guess so. i mean people might enjoy one or the other better but in my opinion people are just too stuck and obsessed with exotic fruits thinking they are much healthier, better than traditional ones and thats false. for example, acai was claimed to be a superfood until blueberries were found to be the same and even better. grapes are amazing and understated, but somehow pomegranate seems more exotic and interesting in the case, i can see how people can be submissive to its looks just like acai once upon a time, when it was the superfood everyone wanted.

[YOLF]

Marketing is different than truth. Marketers will parade around one advantage of something to the effect that people think it's the best, then they'll buy it or have to have it. So they advertise strengths and get distracted. Pomegranate isn't necessarily a lesser fruit, it's just got specific benefits. Likewise, the anthocyanins from different fruits yield different benefits, not all of which have been described on paper and people know them as part of family tradition. I don't think it's really productive to compare fruits... it's like comparing apples to oranges Each offers a different nutritional profile.

[normalizing]

uhm yeh sure. oranges and apples are both fruits which contain lots of water, sugar, fiber and one has more vitamin c than the other. kind of hard not to really compare them as being kind of the same except the taste and smell which is not caused by actual bioactive compounds, but lactones. anthocyanins in various fruits also dont have much bioactivity because the body sees them as foreign and are excreted quickly as to avoid much exposure. it seems that individual's bacteria is what causes various things to happen which is still understudied subject so i wont go and comment on that

Edited by hazy, 02 July 2017 - 04:38 AM.

[YOLF]

I think you've misunderstood my argument. Perhaps try to understand it more in an intuitive fashion.

[Mind]

Here is avery good older thread about pomegranate juice vs. extract: http://www.longecity...ice-vs-extract/

 

These are nice results when there is some small possible positive health correlation with plant materials and extracts, however, don't spend all your time and resources on it (like David Murdock). Plants have been around forever, if they (or their extracts) had significant rejuvenating affects, it would have been known a looooonnnngggg time ago. Eat reasonably, save money and donate to REAL rejuvenation research.

[normalizing]

good point mind. even though the thread you url me to is silly, i think you make a good point at the end

[YOLF]

I still think extracts are easier to take... I'm also sure that not all benefits were measured... it's likely to have been "pomegranate picked" data. 

[normalizing]

yeah, pomegranates just like any other fruit are packed with sugar. very very bad stuff if you ask me. im still confused as to why vegetables and fruits are usually grouped together as healthy foods, when in fact they are so different. fruits are just water and sugar and few vitamins if any

[Daniel Cooper]

Is this effect responsible for the supposed positive impact of Pomegranate juice on atherosclerosis?

 

 

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Japanese study says nothing about whether this was synthesized glucosepane and that's all that matters. I'm not sure if anyone outside of Spiegel labs at Yale has synthesized glucosepane or not. This was also in vitro. I wouldn't go looking for gallic acid just yet. That said I can only find it at sigma aldrich and they won't sell to the general public.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

It's urolithin A that has the capability of producing beneficial effects. Urolithin A is produced by a bacterium (gordonibacter urolithinfaciens, I'll call it GU), that's present in some people's gut. The suffix "faciens" is from Latin meaning to do or to make.

 

If you're lucky enough to have that particular bacterium as part of your enterotype then it will convert ellagic acid into urolithin A, and you might benefit from it. Ellagic acid alone doesn't have a benefit if you happen to be a roundworm. But, urolithim A does provide the benefit of increased lifespan in roundworms as well as increasing muscle function in rats (that's all we need is a world full of Ben's with herculean strength!) .

 

So, how to get GU into your gut, assuming you don't have it? I don't know, but there was an Israeli study which showed that ingestion of pomegranate juice reduced intima-media thickness in carotid arteries. So, as one angle of attack I'm looking into the possibility that certain fermented  foods, as well as the types foods consumed in the middle east, might (I'm guessing here) be sources of GU.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 03 August 2017 - 12:41 AM.

[William Sterog]

There is a proprietary extract called Pomella that claims:

"Pomella has been shown to increase plasma levels of urolithin A, urolithin B, hydroxyl-urolithin A, urolithin A-glucuronide, and dimethyl ellagic acid-glucuronide."

Does this means that you don't need to have the specific bacterium with this brand?

I think that the research after this claim is: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17090147

Thoughts?

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Apparently this article contradicts my assertion. in post #27. that gordonibacter urolithinfaciens produces urolithin A.

 

Here are some excerpts from the article. which I would recommend be read in full. I have emphasized in red some important parts:

 

"Numerous studies signify that diets rich in phytochemicals offer many beneficial functions specifically during pathologic conditions, yet their effects are often not uniform due to inter-individual variation. The host indigenous gut microbiota and their modifications of dietary phytochemicals have emerged as factors that greatly influence the efficacy of phytoceutical-based intervention."

"Collectively, our results demonstrate that microbiota-mediated conversion of EA to UA is advantageous to both host and microbiota i.e. UA-mediated inhibition of pro-oxidant enzymes reduce tissue inflammation, mitigate non-specific killing of gut bacteria, and abrogate iron-binding property of EA, thus providing a competitive edge to the microbiota in acquiring limiting nutrient iron and thrive in the gut."

"Gut microbiota is considered as hidden metabolic ‘organ within an organ’ because of its immense effect on health by influencing the host nutrient acquisition, metabolism, physiology, and immune functions [1–4]."

The health benefits rendered by consumption of several natural plant products (e.g., pomegranates, walnuts and berries) have been associated with their high levels of health promoting polyphenolic compounds, specifically ellagitannins and EA [22–24]. These compounds display protective effects against chronic metabolic disorders both in preclinical and clinical studies [24–30]. The beneficial effects of EA are associated with multi-target action that involve anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant and anti-carcinogenic effects [24, 31]. However, the intestinal absorption (bioavailability) of ellagitannins and EA is limited [32–34]. Recently, Gonzalez-Sarrias et al demonstrated the limits for EA bioavailability in healthy volunteers after consumption of pomegranate extracts [35]. These studies reported that EA bioavailability is not as low as previously described. However, pharmacokinetics suggested that there is high inter-individual variation of EA bioavailability Cmax ranging from 12 to 360 nm [35]."

"It has been suggested that potential health benefits rendered by these compounds in vivo are due to gut microbiota-mediated conversion into metabolites called urolithins [31, 36]. Urolithins [36] are microbial metabolites derived from EA or ellagitannins by commensal bacteria [37] and are dibenzopyran-6-one derivatives with different hydroxyl group substitutions."

"For instance, upon consumption of pomegranate juice by humans, peak plasma levels of UA could reach from 14 to 40 μM but with a large individual-variations [33, 41]. Such variation could be due to that the bacteria responsible for urolithins production may or may not be present in all individuals."

Recently, Selma et al identified the mono cultured bacteria (Gordonibacter urolithinfaciens and Gordonibacter pamelaeae DSM 19378T) that are responsible for metabolizing the EA to produce luteic acid, UroM-5, UroM-6 and UroC [37]. However, these cultured bacteria are incapable of producing the downstream products, UroA (UA) and UroB. Thus, several efforts are now underway to determine the bacterial phyla or group of bacteria responsible for production of UroA and UroB, which can potentially serve as probiotics.  

 

To address the question in post #28--It looks as if it's a crap shoot as to whether a particular individual will be able to produce urolithin A (UA). It might be that gordonibacter urolithinfaciens is needed in a role that might (a guess) be characterized as providing the raw materials for the as-yet-unidentified bacteria (see immediately above) that do the actual production of UA.

 

So, my guess is that Pomella, and similar products high in ellagic acid, will be effective only if one's enterotype includes the needed bacteria. Cheaper products high in ellagic acid can be found in bulk on Amazon.com. Those products might help and probably are benign so it's a dice toss to spend money not knowing if you have the correct bacteria to produce the UA.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 03 August 2017 - 04:39 PM.

[normalizing]

question still stands, how do you acquire such bacteria???