Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:30 AM
First, just find out whether you have them. You can pay a lab to do it, or you can join the Biocollective and have them do it for free. It does take a long time to get the kit and get results though, but hey, free.
Posted 04 August 2017 - 05:48 AM
Sometimes our attention span is a bit short: about pomegranate juice there is an earlier thread with a lot of information and insights:
http://www.longecity...y-fight-ageing/
Regarding who can produce Urolithin A and who can't, this was uploaded as a central document:
Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:29 PM
Sometimes our attention span is a bit short: about pomegranate juice there is an earlier thread with a lot of information and insights:
http://www.longecity...y-fight-ageing/
Regarding who can produce Urolithin A and who can't, this was uploaded as a central document:
But the question is, are these three phenotypes the results of the genetic makeup of the subjects, or are the due to differences in the gut flora of the subjects. Alternatively, I suppose that their gut flora could be the result of their genetic makeup (that is almost certainly true to some extent).
What we'd like to know is can we turn a phenotype 0 into a phenotype A or B by introducing the right bacteria? If so, how would one practically go about doing that?
Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:33 PM
Well, some companies have patented Sulforaphane precursors that include the necessary enzyme (Myrosinase, if I recall right) to make them bioavailable. It is possible to do a similar thing with Pomegranate? Maybe there is a way to produce the Urolithin outside the body.
RESULTS:Urolithin B was the molecule able to resist to a greater extent the conditions of the gastrointestinal tract, while urolithin A and ellagic acid were drastically unstable during the colonic step. Conjugation with glucuronic acid, ideally occurring in the liver, conferred to urolithin B an increased stability, which may be interesting in the framework of entero-hepatic recirculation.
CONCLUSION:This set of experiments lets hypothesize that orally supplemented urolithins may come into contact with the colonic epithelium and become accessible for uptake or exert local anti-inflammatory activity, overcoming the limitations of enterotypes unable to convert ellagitannins into these putatively beneficial metabolites.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26439723
Maybe enteric coated capsules could be a solution? Or liposomal preparations, as with Curcumin.
Anyway, so Punicalagins are useless now? Damn it, I expended so much in that crap...
Edited by William Sterog, 04 August 2017 - 02:35 PM.
Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:38 PM
I don't know that the study indicates how the three groups were defined or what their groupings were based on. It doesn't say that genetic samples were provided or analyzed. What are the characteristics of Phenotype B and how do they differ from 0 or A?
Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:42 PM
I don't know that the study indicates how the three groups were defined or what their groupings were based on. It doesn't say that genetic samples were provided or analyzed. What are the characteristics of Phenotype B and how do they differ from 0 or A?
Edited by William Sterog, 04 August 2017 - 02:43 PM.
Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:57 PM
What we'd like to know is can we turn a phenotype 0 into a phenotype A or B by introducing the right bacteria? If so, how would one practically go about doing that?
It seems even more complicated. I wish the study I uploaded was not just about urine and feces but also about blood plasma. As it stands now the 0 excreters might be the lucky guys who put all the EA they ingest to good use. Urulithin B, however, is amply secreted by cancer patients, the study reports....
Pterostilbene might be of some use for preparing the gut for receiving EA:
http://www.timelessl...lin-production/
Then there is this supplement which may or may not approach our gut in a different manner. It is called Robuvit and on page 3 or 4 of their brochure they claim it helps producing Urolthins.
http://www.robuvit.c..._EN_161_WEB.pdf
I have been taking it haphazardly for at least a year.. It did not turn my brown eyes blue. 
So far I drink a glass of pure Pomegranate juice per day, I eat a handful of walnuts , raspberries when in season and take a Robuvit every few days and just hope for the best of it....
Posted 04 August 2017 - 09:03 PM
robuvit is suppose to be liver protective supplement. no real success using it for a month though. its kind of like milk thistle, it doesnt really do much for the liver but people take it in hope it can prevent and cleanse some of the toxins that might be accumulating in the liver.
and what do you mean hope for the best? what does that mean??
Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:15 AM
https://www.amazon.c...ASIN=B00USMXH9G
I take the above in hopes of some benefits. Guess I'll throw in some pterostilbene and hope someone comes up a sort of probiotic pearl that upgrades the ellagitannins.
Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:31 AM
It's urolithin A that has the capability of producing beneficial effects. Urolithin A is produced by a bacterium (gordonibacter urolithinfaciens, I'll call it GU), that's present in some people's gut. The suffix "faciens" is from Latin meaning to do or to make.
If you're lucky enough to have that particular bacterium as part of your enterotype then it will convert ellagic acid into urolithin A, and you might benefit from it. Ellagic acid alone doesn't have a benefit if you happen to be a roundworm. But, urolithim A does provide the benefit of increased lifespan in roundworms as well as increasing muscle function in rats (that's all we need is a world full of Ben's with herculean strength!) .
So, how to get GU into your gut, assuming you don't have it? I don't know, but there was an Israeli study which showed that ingestion of pomegranate juice reduced intima-media thickness in carotid arteries. So, as one angle of attack I'm looking into the possibility that certain fermented foods, as well as the types foods consumed in the middle east, might (I'm guessing here) be sources of GU.
Well, feeding them substrates such as ellagic acid would seem to work pretty well. Most people probably have some small amount of GU in their guts, and those who feed it or make something that feeds them will probably see a bloom of it. I don't really eat much if any fermented foods and practically live off supplements, and it definitely improves my flexibility to the point of getting lazy.
Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:38 AM
Well, some companies have patented Sulforaphane precursors that include the necessary enzyme (Myrosinase, if I recall right) to make them bioavailable. It is possible to do a similar thing with Pomegranate? Maybe there is a way to produce the Urolithin outside the body.
RESULTS:Urolithin B was the molecule able to resist to a greater extent the conditions of the gastrointestinal tract, while urolithin A and ellagic acid were drastically unstable during the colonic step. Conjugation with glucuronic acid, ideally occurring in the liver, conferred to urolithin B an increased stability, which may be interesting in the framework of entero-hepatic recirculation.
CONCLUSION:This set of experiments lets hypothesize that orally supplemented urolithins may come into contact with the colonic epithelium and become accessible for uptake or exert local anti-inflammatory activity, overcoming the limitations of enterotypes unable to convert ellagitannins into these putatively beneficial metabolites.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26439723
Maybe enteric coated capsules could be a solution? Or liposomal preparations, as with Curcumin.
Anyway, so Punicalagins are useless now? Damn it, I expended so much in that crap...
They may just provide different benefits, I wouldn't feel like you wasted money, you just got a different benefit. Nature works with a variety of synergies and doesn't know what a monotherapy is... we made that.
Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:50 AM
YOLF,
In post #29 I updated my assertion of post #28. Apparently GU (gordonibacter urolithinfaciens) isn't the primary actor for the production of urolithins (if it's actually true that GU isn't, as per the reference I provided in post #29, then it's baldly named--as "faciens" means "to make"). Perhaps GU works, in conjunction with additional bacteria, by supplying raw materials for urolithin production (pure speculation).
I've decided to supplement with inulin and resistant starches, both of which which stimulate growth of bacteria in the gut, in the hope that if I do happen to have a small colony of whatever the good gut-buddies are that produce the urolithins, then I intend to see to it that they're well-fed.
Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 05 August 2017 - 01:22 AM.
Posted 05 August 2017 - 06:59 AM
about resistant starch, potatoes seem to be a major source. even french fries would contain resistant starch. it might seem controversial to claim such junk food as french fries have it, but its still potatoes and i can feel the starch when i eat them, should normally contain it no? of course plus the fried oil and such which is bad...
Posted 05 August 2017 - 09:03 AM
about resistant starch, potatoes seem to be a major source. even french fries would contain resistant starch. it might seem controversial to claim such junk food as french fries have it, but its still potatoes and i can feel the starch when i eat them, should normally contain it no? of course plus the fried oil and such which is bad...
Resistant starch is in raw potatos and for example green bananas. As soon as the banana goes yellow and the potatoes is boiled it turns into regular starches which the human gut can digest and leaves nothing for the micro-biota. Therefore french fries don't contain resistant starch!
Posted 05 August 2017 - 03:58 PM
about resistant starch, potatoes seem to be a major source. even french fries would contain resistant starch. it might seem controversial to claim such junk food as french fries have it, but its still potatoes and i can feel the starch when i eat them, should normally contain it no? of course plus the fried oil and such which is bad...
Resistant starch is in raw potatos and for example green bananas. As soon as the banana goes yellow and the potatoes is boiled it turns into regular starches which the human gut can digest and leaves nothing for the micro-biota. Therefore french fries don't contain resistant starch!
Well that's good if you don't have ragweed/hay fever food allergies, both bananas and potatoes are asterids iirc. What has resistant starch that's not an asterid?
Posted 05 August 2017 - 04:36 PM
@pamojja
Actually, boiled or baked potatoes do contain resistant starch.
From the above link:
"More specifically, regardless of potato variety, the baked potatoes had significantly higher resistant starch at 3.6 grams of starch per 100 grams of food (3.6/100g on average) than boiled potatoes (2.4/100g). Also on average, chilled potatoes (whether originally baked or boiled) contained the most resistant starch (4.3/100g ) followed by chilled-and-reheated potatoes (3.5/100g) and potatoes served hot (3.1/100g)."
I've noticed that after baking a potato that when I cut it open it has a "grainy" texture. However if I refrigerate the potato and it cools and sets, then the texture becomes "fleshy", firmer, and more "integrated". I suspect that the change in texture represents a conversion to resistant starch.
Fried potatoes may be a different matter. In addition, frying potatoes can produce acrylamide, but there are ways to fry potatoes that minimize acrylamide production, relative to common preparation styles.
So, in an attempt to utilize pomegranate as an AGE cleaver, as well as avail oneself of the additional benefits ascribed to pomegranates, such as providing a source of ellagitannins that are use by certain gut bacteria to make urolithins. Feeding the gut bacteria such things as resistant starch can, I suspect, be useful to facilitate any potential AGE-cleaving properties of the pomegranate.
Posted 05 August 2017 - 05:15 PM
Resistant starch is in raw potatos and for example green bananas. As soon as the banana goes yellow and the potatoes is boiled it turns into regular starches which the human gut can digest and leaves nothing for the micro-biota. Therefore french fries don't contain resistant starch!
Well that's good if you don't have ragweed/hay fever food allergies, both bananas and potatoes are asterids iirc. What has resistant starch that's not an asterid?
Take a look here: https://www.curealit...s.aspx?ID=19247, a pretty extensive write-up about available prebiotics.
However if I refrigerate the potato and it cools and sets, then the texture becomes "fleshy", firmer, and more "integrated". I suspect that the change in texture represents a conversion to resistant starch.
Exactly, cooked potatoes, or even rice cooled down have a little increased RS again.
Raw Potato
Some estimates place the prebiotic fiber content as high as 45%, but these may be based on “dry matter”, which is only 20% of the potato mass.
Do not consume raw potato skin, or green potato flesh due to solanine. Do not cook raw potato, as this converts all but 3% or less of the prebiotic fiber to available carbohydrate.
Re-cooling cooked potato (e.g. potato salad) only repolymerizes 1-2% of the starch.
Posted 05 August 2017 - 05:59 PM
Re: post #48.
Quote found in that post:
"Raw Potato
Some estimates place the prebiotic fiber content as high as 45%, but these may be based on “dry matter”, which is only 20% of the potato mass."
For a 150gm potato there might be 30gm of dry matter (based on the 20% figure above). And 45% (assuming that's correct) of 30gm is 13.5gm of prebiotic fiber content. A similar-sized boiled or baked potato that is chilled will have 6.45gm (4.3gm/100gm from post #47) of resistant starch.
Since eating raw potato is unadvised, it seems that a 150gm chilled boiled-or-baked potato will provide a good portion of the recommendations for daily fiber intake (about 30-38gm for men, around 21-25gm for women). There are other considerations such as glycemic index one might want to take into account too as far as potatoes are concerned.
I suspect that, taking various caveats into account, eating some amount of chilled, cooked (boiled or baked), potato (or just plain potato starch) will be beneficial to pomegranate AGE-cleaving strategies.
Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 05 August 2017 - 06:36 PM.
Posted 24 August 2017 - 12:56 AM
Can pomegranate cleave glucosepane?
My understanding is that glucosepane is the most common AGE in the human body. In fact, glucosepane crosslinks compose 90% or more of all AGEs.
If a substance cannot cleave glucosepane, I don't see it as being amazingly anti-aging.
Posted 24 August 2017 - 12:50 PM
nothing cleaves glucosapane... yet. simple research will tell you this and pomegranate is just a damn fruit. so ado about nothing
Pomegranate has been shown to reverse atheroschlerosis and remove plaque from arteries. Pretty good for a fruit.
Posted 24 August 2017 - 08:41 PM
nothing cleaves glucosapane... yet. simple research will tell you this and pomegranate is just a damn fruit. so ado about nothing
Pomegranate has been shown to reverse atheroschlerosis and remove plaque from arteries. Pretty good for a fruit.
which rat study is that?
Posted 25 August 2017 - 03:14 AM
thanks. i wasnt unfriendly, i was just hoping for reference and he didnt give one and from what i have read, its mostly rat studies. so anyway, this one looks ok, but some minor flaws and im curious who sponsored it. i read few studies, mostly rats but also one human study relation to heart health but they were sponsored by POM and they were sued for this even
Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:53 PM
Rat studies are more accurate than you think...
...So it worked or didn't in rats, here's why:
1. It was cooked into rat chow and cooking modified it.
2. It was injected, or there was a difference in rat metabolism, sometimes even causing it to behave differently in humans
3. Other.
Here's what that means:
1. Use a different molecule, heat it up, or bake it into human kibble at about 200F.
2. There are lots of things that don't work when administered orally... so stick it in an enteric capsule, attach it to acetic acid, an oil, or something else that we know helps get it into the blood stream. Stuff like amidate seems popular. These were hopeful studies that just didn't get enough money.
3. I don't know yet.
If a study says it didn't work, then the researchers may have learned something and moved on, or they may have been moved to a different area or research, gotten a different job etc... that's why the government funds orphan drugs. It's not the end of research road, it's just that they didn't take it any further b/c something else was closer to generating a return and they would have had to start over. My suggestion is to get creative and try things, but watch out for symptoms that could be serious.
Posted 25 August 2017 - 11:18 PM
nothing cleaves glucosapane... yet. simple research will tell you this and pomegranate is just a damn fruit. so ado about nothing
Pomegranate has been shown to reverse atheroschlerosis and remove plaque from arteries. Pretty good for a fruit.
which rat study is that?
Here's the study Ornish participated in.
Effects of Pomegranate Juice Consumption on Myocardial.pdf 72.28KB
11 downloads
Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 August 2017 - 11:28 PM.
Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:40 AM
i see. well i have been drinking pomegranate juice in the past and all the sugar (naturally) being present made me actually sick. so whatever the benefit, there is the negative with that bunch of sugar the fruits in general contain and making juice out of fruits concentrates the sugars 10x and its just not healthy, in my opinion.
on the other hand, i also had pomegranate wine, and it was less sugary than the juice, perhaps because of the fermentation process and such. in all honestly, i think pomegranate wine is likely more healthy than the juice. it did make me feel better overall, and its not just the alcohol present, because i drink all kinds of alcoholic beverages and that one did feel different.
Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:23 AM
8 oz (240ml) of pomegranate juice with a meal is not likely to cause issue wrt the sugar unless you are actually diabetic. And some studies have show an effect with at little as 2 oz (60ml). This is all of course provided that you are otherwise watching your daily sugar intake. Taking it with a meal will greatly attenuate the sugar spike.
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