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How to induce better sleep quality, keep waking up due to dreaming

dreaming sleep maintenance insomnia insomnia

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#1 YoungSchizo

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 06:37 PM


I had a psychosis a year ago, eversince I have been waking up frequently, 9-10 times a night due to realizing I am dreaming and/or that the dreams wake me up because they won't stop if I do not wake up. I never have nightmares luckiley and my dreams are quite pleasant but still, I wake up un-refreashed in the morning and that drowsy feeling keeps on for hours/even the whole day. I wake up with sort of a "hangover", unable to tolerate any stimuli. This, you may say, is due to the use of a high dose (30mg) Mirtazapine, but that's not the case.. I've been on Mirtazapine for 7 years and of those 7 years 6 of it it never caused drowsiness. Past years I've tried replacing Mirtazapine with Ambien, Clonazepam, Temazepam, Seroquel, Doxipin, Amitriptyline, Trazadone, Promathazine, Magnesium, milk with honey, Melantonin, higher dose of Zyprexa and what not.. They've all failed to PUT and KEEP me at sleep (with the exception of Mirtazapine inducing sleep and being able to get a full nights rest even though the struggle of waking up upon dreaming).

Right now (for a week) I'm on a trial of Prazosin (the solution sleep drug to turn to for PTSD patients with nightmares) and I notice a little improvement. I'm still playing with the dose and tbh I'm unsure if taking a higher dose (I'm on 5mg) will change anything.

All my hits on this subject on google turns up to unscientific stuff or to stuff that helps a (healthy) mind with insomnia but didn't help me and I'm unable to find anything that helps against sleep maintenance insomnia. The drugs (so far) I find are drugs that I've already tried and did not help.

Sorry for the rambling, my goal is to find a drug that disables dreaming at all (don't know if that's even possible but I know from researching this subject some people that do not dream at all or don't realize they've dreamt)

Any input which brain chemicals induce dreaming and how to "disable" it?

#2 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:30 PM

Yes.

 

I made an entire thread about this - GABAPENTIN.

 

It alters sleep-structure, and is used for the treatment of the disease I have: PLMD - Periodic Limb Movement Disorder - when your body twists, shakes, flails and convulses while you sleep.

 

It increases the time you spend in stage 4 sleep - by doing so, it also automatically DE-creases the time spent in the three other phases of sleep - Phase 3 is the period wherein you sleep.

 

 

Try it out - you won't need as large of a dose if you only take it for sleep-maintenance as you do when you would take it during the day for anxiety - 300 mg should do it.


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#3 YoungSchizo

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:43 PM

Yes.

I made an entire thread about this - GABAPENTIN.

It alters sleep-structure, and is used for the treatment of the disease I have: PLMD - Periodic Limb Movement Disorder - when your body twists, shakes, flails and convulses while you sleep.

It increases the time you spend in stage 4 sleep - by doing so, it also automatically DE-creases the time spent in the three other phases of sleep - Phase 3 is the period wherein you sleep.


Try it out - you won't need as large of a dose if you only take it for sleep-maintenance as you do when you would take it during the day for anxiety - 300 mg should do it.


I might not get my hands on Gabapentin, but on her sister Lyrica/Pregabalin, is that the same?

#4 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 10:54 PM

 

Yes.

I made an entire thread about this - GABAPENTIN.

It alters sleep-structure, and is used for the treatment of the disease I have: PLMD - Periodic Limb Movement Disorder - when your body twists, shakes, flails and convulses while you sleep.

It increases the time you spend in stage 4 sleep - by doing so, it also automatically DE-creases the time spent in the three other phases of sleep - Phase 3 is the period wherein you sleep.


Try it out - you won't need as large of a dose if you only take it for sleep-maintenance as you do when you would take it during the day for anxiety - 300 mg should do it.


I might not get my hands on Gabapentin, but on her sister Lyrica/Pregabalin, is that the same?

 

 

More or less... but it hasn't been studied to the same extent, for sleep-issues.

 

Remember that Pregabalin is waay stronger though, so you'll need to adjust dosage - start with a 100 mg instead, if you do try Pregabalin for sleep-structure.
 

 

Why wouldn't you get your hands on Gaba-p though? Prega-b is actually known to be more addictive, and in my jurisdiction, the Dr's are actually more weary of prescribing it, since it's more popular as a drug of abuse.

 

Logically, your Dr. should be HAPPY you want that instead of Pregabalin! : O



#5 YoungSchizo

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 12:59 AM

Yes.

I made an entire thread about this - GABAPENTIN.

It alters sleep-structure, and is used for the treatment of the disease I have: PLMD - Periodic Limb Movement Disorder - when your body twists, shakes, flails and convulses while you sleep.

It increases the time you spend in stage 4 sleep - by doing so, it also automatically DE-creases the time spent in the three other phases of sleep - Phase 3 is the period wherein you sleep.


Try it out - you won't need as large of a dose if you only take it for sleep-maintenance as you do when you would take it during the day for anxiety - 300 mg should do it.

I might not get my hands on Gabapentin, but on her sister Lyrica/Pregabalin, is that the same?
More or less... but it hasn't been studied to the same extent, for sleep-issues.

Remember that Pregabalin is waay stronger though, so you'll need to adjust dosage - start with a 100 mg instead, if you do try Pregabalin for sleep-structure.


Why wouldn't you get your hands on Gaba-p though? Prega-b is actually known to be more addictive, and in my jurisdiction, the Dr's are actually more weary of prescribing it, since it's more popular as a drug of abuse.

Logically, your Dr. should be HAPPY you want that instead of Pregabalin! : O
I can order even order as low as 25mg Lyrica from the pharma, (they make it specially) got it prescribed before. From what I know, Gaba-P and Pre-G are the same, Pre-G being the successor of Gaba-P and you need a much lower dosage for the same effect. I will research and ask for it. Other suggestions?

Edited by YoungSchizo, 07 August 2017 - 01:00 AM.


#6 YoungSchizo

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 05:58 PM

I have researched Memantine for schizophrenia and seems it really could help negative symptoms of schizophrenia (I'm on my phone so can't posts links). Anyway my question is not regarding Memantine and negative symptoms (although I'm gonna a give it a try soon). More importantly I was wondering if Memantine would be able to reverse tolerance (to the sleep inducing effects of) Mirtazapine (just like some people use it to reverse for amphetamine and other drugs tolerance)?

I also read Memantine can cause and may likely cause insomnia in lots of people, so was wondering if say Memantine would reverse Mirtazapine tolerance but at the same time can cause insomnia, it contradicts each other, what am I supposed to think of this..?

Thoughts?

#7 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 01:30 PM

I'm too tired to give any thoughts, alas.

 

But...

 

...I'm not convinced Memantine is a good option for Schizophrenia yet - it's mechanisms of actions both fly in the face of what we know of the mechanisms of Schiz: NMDA-antagonism and D2-agonism - these are, theoretically, the PERFECT actions to send a Schiz into complete psychosis.

 

I don't think you should use it - I think you should try something else.

 

And even though NMDA-antagonists are in theory useful for sleeping-disorders, not a single one has as of yet been developed and approved for this purpose - even though there are many such compounds known, some very selective.

 

 

You can read up on more info about Slow-Wave sleep, and drugs which affect it, in these links:

 

Enhancement of Slow Wave Sleep: Implications for Insomnia

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2824211/

 

 

Neuronal ensembles sufficient for recovery sleep and the sedative actions of α2 adrenergic agonists

https://www.research...nergic_agonists

 

(in theory, you could augment gabapentin with Clonidine or Guanfacine as well)

 

 


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 11 August 2017 - 01:33 PM.


#8 YoungSchizo

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 08:18 PM

I'm too tired to give any thoughts, alas.

 

But...

 

...I'm not convinced Memantine is a good option for Schizophrenia yet - it's mechanisms of actions both fly in the face of what we know of the mechanisms of Schiz: NMDA-antagonism and D2-agonism - these are, theoretically, the PERFECT actions to send a Schiz into complete psychosis.

 

I don't think you should use it - I think you should try something else.

 

And even though NMDA-antagonists are in theory useful for sleeping-disorders, not a single one has as of yet been developed and approved for this purpose - even though there are many such compounds known, some very selective.

 

 

You can read up on more info about Slow-Wave sleep, and drugs which affect it, in these links:

 

Enhancement of Slow Wave Sleep: Implications for Insomnia

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2824211/

 

 

Neuronal ensembles sufficient for recovery sleep and the sedative actions of α2 adrenergic agonists

https://www.research...nergic_agonists

 

(in theory, you could augment gabapentin with Clonidine or Guanfacine as well)

 

I disagree on your stance on schizophrenia and Memantine.

https://www.hindawi....a/2017/7021071/

 

 

3.2. Memantine and Negative Symptoms

Memantine effects on negative symptoms have been evaluated by numerous studies. Two case reports showed an effective improvement in negative symptoms when memantine 10 mg/day was added to conventional therapies [32]. In a retrospective study based on 26-patient case series a satisfactory therapeutic response was obtained with antipsychotic drugs and 20 mg/day of memantine [33]. Krivoy et al. observed a 16% reduction in total PANSS and a 21% reduction in PANSS negative subscale [30]. In 2015, a 26-week randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study conducted on 52 patients showed that PANSS negative symptoms scores significantly improved in subjects treated with clozapine and memantine 10 mg/day compared to those treated with placebo [34]. A 12-week randomized controlled trial conducted on 60 subjects showed higher scores of QLS (quality of life scale) and GAF (global assessment of functioning) in patients treated with memantine compared to the control group [35]. In 8-week double-center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel-group study conducted on 40 subjects, patients taking memantine and risperidone showed PANSS total and PANSS negative subscale scores lower than those treated with placebo [36]. Finally, a multicenter 8-week double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study, conducted on 138 patients did not achieve statistically significant results [37].

 

I would feel blessed with a 21% reduction in negative symptoms. Afaik, Memantine is a very weak D2 agonist which should not cause a problem while on antipsychotics. Memantine is also a potent 5HT3 antagonist. 

 

Anyway, it'll take probably a month before I start experimenting with Memantine.. What I'm also very curious about is if Memantine is able to counteract the sleep inducing tolerance I've (might have) developed against Mirtazapine?

 

Anyone?



#9 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:01 PM

 

I'm too tired to give any thoughts, alas.

 

But...

 

...I'm not convinced Memantine is a good option for Schizophrenia yet - it's mechanisms of actions both fly in the face of what we know of the mechanisms of Schiz: NMDA-antagonism and D2-agonism - these are, theoretically, the PERFECT actions to send a Schiz into complete psychosis.

 

I don't think you should use it - I think you should try something else.

 

And even though NMDA-antagonists are in theory useful for sleeping-disorders, not a single one has as of yet been developed and approved for this purpose - even though there are many such compounds known, some very selective.

 

 

You can read up on more info about Slow-Wave sleep, and drugs which affect it, in these links:

 

Enhancement of Slow Wave Sleep: Implications for Insomnia

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2824211/

 

 

Neuronal ensembles sufficient for recovery sleep and the sedative actions of α2 adrenergic agonists

https://www.research...nergic_agonists

 

(in theory, you could augment gabapentin with Clonidine or Guanfacine as well)

 

I disagree on your stance on schizophrenia and Memantine.

https://www.hindawi....a/2017/7021071/

 

 

3.2. Memantine and Negative Symptoms

Memantine effects on negative symptoms have been evaluated by numerous studies. Two case reports showed an effective improvement in negative symptoms when memantine 10 mg/day was added to conventional therapies [32]. In a retrospective study based on 26-patient case series a satisfactory therapeutic response was obtained with antipsychotic drugs and 20 mg/day of memantine [33]. Krivoy et al. observed a 16% reduction in total PANSS and a 21% reduction in PANSS negative subscale [30]. In 2015, a 26-week randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study conducted on 52 patients showed that PANSS negative symptoms scores significantly improved in subjects treated with clozapine and memantine 10 mg/day compared to those treated with placebo [34]. A 12-week randomized controlled trial conducted on 60 subjects showed higher scores of QLS (quality of life scale) and GAF (global assessment of functioning) in patients treated with memantine compared to the control group [35]. In 8-week double-center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel-group study conducted on 40 subjects, patients taking memantine and risperidone showed PANSS total and PANSS negative subscale scores lower than those treated with placebo [36]. Finally, a multicenter 8-week double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study, conducted on 138 patients did not achieve statistically significant results [37].

 

I would feel blessed with a 21% reduction in negative symptoms. Afaik, Memantine is a very weak D2 agonist which should not cause a problem while on antipsychotics. Memantine is also a potent 5HT3 antagonist. 

 

Anyway, it'll take probably a month before I start experimenting with Memantine.. What I'm also very curious about is if Memantine is able to counteract the sleep inducing tolerance I've (might have) developed against Mirtazapine?

 

Anyone?

 

 

It's possible that it could reverse it, since it does reverse tolerance for a number of other compounds... there have, to my knowledge, never been any trials for that purpose though - nor does it seem to have been used by anyone online either, as far as I can tell.

 

A small note about Memantine... I was unaware that it was a 5ht3-antagonist, at least not to any significant extent - IF SO... please take into account that perhaps the entirety of its action against negative symptoms could be caused by this property - as you're aware, there is ample proof that SELECTIVE 5ht3-antagonists, compounds used for the treatment of nausea and vomiting, have shown very good promise recently, for the treatment of Negative Schiz.

 

I implore you, try ONDANSETRON first, like I told you earlier, BEFORE you try Memantine. The NMDA-antagonist will still be available for you afterwards, but the 5ht3-antagonist is a safer bet to start with.

 

 

Now, as mentioned before... Something like this could work for negative schiz:

 

Ondansetron

Brexpiprazole (I guess, go with ARIpiprazole, if you can't get Brex)

Reboxetine

 

--------

 

But this is actually off-topic... what do you think about my ideas for combining Clonidine with Gabapentin, to make it so you sleep better? Does it seem reasonable?


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 11 August 2017 - 09:02 PM.


#10 YoungSchizo

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 09:46 PM

Ordering Ondansetron and Reboxetine would be very expensive, I'm unable to afford it in the long term. I also wouldn't be able to get it from my pdoc off-label, the pdocs in the Netherlands are very strict and they tend to follow the strict guidelines, so it's not possible to get a prescription off-label. I haven't looked into Clonodine yet, but the first thing I'm gonna ask is to get a prescription in order to try and fix my sleeping problems with Pregabalin/Lyrica.

 

I've also bought and trialed Prazosin the past 2 weeks, with a little bit of success. On Prazosin I've been able to bring back 10 awakenings to 4 so that's positive but due to side-effects and effectiveness I had to drop it. Right now I stole a strip of Atenolol (a beta blokker that doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier) from my dad yesterday and I'm trialing that right now.. I've woken up 3-4 times this night but don't recall dreaming and the adrenaline rush I sometimes get (a fast pounding of my heart) also didn't occur so that's also positive. That's another issue I have to fix, when my heart pumps so fast causing an adrenaline rush I'm unable to fall asleep. I'm thinking of asking for Propanolol next week to fix that.

 

Anyway, that leaves me with Memantine which I'm able to afford in the long-term. And if it works I might be able to pursue my pdoc to prescribe it off-label (together with the documentation of Memantine on negative symptoms).



#11 Dichotohmy

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 10:48 PM

I have a kind of similar problem in that virtually every night, I frequently wake up in the middle of a REM cycle or some other point where I realize that I was dreaming. At least once a night, I also experience hypnogogic dream-like hallucinations at sleep onset, and/or I wake up during quasi dreams consisting of 30-60 second looping images, thoughts, or ideas which are most likely benign, non-frightening hypnopompic hallucinations. Because of this, I might have some insight.

 

First, you need to verify, by some objective means, that you are in fact experiencing fragmented sleep as a result of REM cycles. You need a polysomnogram, or at the very least, some crude data such as via a Zeo or smart-phone sleep-cycle tracker app. The reason I say this is because dreams can occur in NREM stages of sleep as well and you could very well be waking up during the deeper stages of NREM sleep due to some abnormal brain activity or organic injury, or sleep disordered breathing, in those stages. Its possible you are falsely attributing REM sleep awakenings being the problem here. A polysomnogram is not a magic data source and you could very well have an uncharacteristic night of sleep that skews the data, but you can get some valuable reference.

 

Second, you do not want to significantly decrease your total time in REM unless you have a condition, like narcolepsy or depression, that is costing you deep NREM sleep at the expense of increased REM. Because of my problem, I have measured significantly less total time in REM and can tell you that medicine is dead wrong in the assumption that REM sleep is not very important. There is no sleep less refreshing than prolonged REM-deprivation sleep, and unrefreshing sleep can eat you alive. There has not been enough study on REM deprivation in humans and its effects to say that REM is anything but just as essential as stage 3-4 sleep. I would urge you to be careful about your goal to eliminate or significantly decrease REM.

 

Third, sleep-disordered breathing, such as obstructive sleep apnea or UARS is commonly much worse for patients during the REM stage and, because of the relative shallowness of this stage, leads to a conscious awakening during hypopnea or apnea episodes. Sleep disordered breathing can develop spontaneously for mysterious reasons, and the stereotypes about SDB patients are far from absolute. A polysomnogram will give you some insight into this. Moreover, certain medications such as GABA ligands or benzos, can actually make the sleep-disordered breathing worse by lengthening the duration of hypopnea or apnea episodes before you wake up from them.


Edited by Dichotohmy, 11 August 2017 - 10:57 PM.

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#12 YoungSchizo

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:32 PM

I have a kind of similar problem in that virtually every night, I frequently wake up in the middle of a REM cycle or some other point where I realize that I was dreaming. At least once a night, I also experience hypnogogic dream-like hallucinations at sleep onset, and/or I wake up during quasi dreams consisting of 30-60 second looping images, thoughts, or ideas which are most likely benign, non-frightening hypnopompic hallucinations. Because of this, I might have some insight.

 

First, you need to verify, by some objective means, that you are in fact experiencing fragmented sleep as a result of REM cycles. You need a polysomnogram, or at the very least, some crude data such as via a Zeo or smart-phone sleep-cycle tracker app. The reason I say this is because dreams can occur in NREM stages of sleep as well and you could very well be waking up during the deeper stages of NREM sleep due to some abnormal brain activity or organic injury, or sleep disordered breathing, in those stages. Its possible you are falsely attributing REM sleep awakenings being the problem here. A polysomnogram is not a magic data source and you could very well have an uncharacteristic night of sleep that skews the data, but you can get some valuable reference.

 

Second, you do not want to significantly decrease your total time in REM unless you have a condition, like narcolepsy or depression, that is costing you deep NREM sleep at the expense of increased REM. Because of my problem, I have measured significantly less total time in REM and can tell you that medicine is dead wrong in the assumption that REM sleep is not very important. There is no sleep less refreshing than prolonged REM-deprivation sleep, and unrefreshing sleep can eat you alive. There has not been enough study on REM deprivation in humans and its effects to say that REM is anything but just as essential as stage 3-4 sleep. I would urge you to be careful about your goal to eliminate or significantly decrease REM.

 

Third, sleep-disordered breathing, such as obstructive sleep apnea or UARS is commonly much worse for patients during the REM stage and, because of the relative shallowness of this stage, leads to a conscious awakening during hypopnea or apnea episodes. Sleep disordered breathing can develop spontaneously for mysterious reasons, and the stereotypes about SDB patients are far from absolute. A polysomnogram will give you some insight into this. Moreover, certain medications such as GABA ligands or benzos, can actually make the sleep-disordered breathing worse by lengthening the duration of hypopnea or apnea episodes before you wake up from them.

 

Is your condition resolved, if so, how?

 

I take benzos (Clonazepam) for 7 years and it's not an option for me to give that up, because it's like the "primary antipsychotic" I'm taking, in other words, it's effectiveness is to important for my mental health. That being said, I guess with all the (anti-insomnia) medication I tried I might be eligible for a polysomnogram though. Going to ask for that.



#13 YoungSchizo

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 06:29 PM

Well I had an appointment today with my pdoc, she was reluctant prescribing me Pregabalin (she first wanted it to discuss it with her colleagues before giving me that). Instead, she prescribed me Topamax, can't really find something about it being a sleep aid. Also, I read Topamax works on glutamate, I'm also taking Memantine (5mg for the past 3 days) will they interact?

Thoughts?

#14 YoungSchizo

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:26 PM

Hey guys,

 

With the list I gave earlier in the thread I've pretty much gone through almost all the sleep inducing / insomniac drugs and non has helped my condition. Except for 30mg Mirtazapine (which induces sleep but doesn't keep me at sleep anymore but eventually does get me enough sleep to tackle the next day. Half functioning but that's better than not to functioning at all!).

 

I had an appointment with my pdoc today and she's going to discuss with her colleagues if she's is able to prescribe me Pregabalin for (sleep maintenance) insomnia. If not, she's going to refer me to a sleep-clinic to get me tested (polysomnogram). Because I'm taking Parnate (and it's working well), I have not much other options left to try other medication (Antidepressants, Antihistmanines, Benzo's or regular sleep drug that doesn't help me long-term, their either contraindicated, addictive and/or cause tolerance or don't work at all on a low dosage). I was wondering if some forms of Magnesium is contraindicated with MAOI's? If not, which type of Magnesium supplements could I try? Or, any ideas what else I can mix with MAOI's? I wanted to up my 20mg dosage of Parnate to get to a dosage to benefit from it's full antidepressant effect but we figured it's best to leave it on 20mg, since higher dosages could make my insomnia worse and I'm already really agitated of waking up every 1-2 hours.

 

My last question, I've been trying to figure out which chemical(s) causes one to dream but couldn't find anything on this subject. All I could find was an explanation that the reason why someone fully wakes up due to a dream is because the body reacts to what happens in the dream because the mind sees what happens in a dream to be real, which in turn causes some parts of the brain to also get activated which in turn causes someone to get fully awake during a dream... Makes sense to me...

 

 



#15 Finn

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 03:58 AM

 

My last question, I've been trying to figure out which chemical(s) causes one to dream but couldn't find anything on this subject. All I could find was an explanation that the reason why someone fully wakes up due to a dream is because the body reacts to what happens in the dream because the mind sees what happens in a dream to be real, which in turn causes some parts of the brain to also get activated which in turn causes someone to get fully awake during a dream... Makes sense to me...

 

Everybody dreams every night. But unless you wake up during the dream, or immediately after it, you wont remember your nightly dreams, since the brain deletes them soon after it. This is the reason why nightmares are more often remembered, because nightmares are more likely to wake you up.

 

So if your dreams aren't nightmares, but pleasant ones, I would say that it is likely that the dreams are not the cause of your sleep problems, remembering them is more like a symptom. You remember the dreams because your sleep problem awakes you before your brain has thrown your dreams to Recycle Bin and emptied it. 


Edited by Finn, 15 September 2017 - 04:16 AM.


#16 YoungSchizo

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 07:32 PM

 

 

My last question, I've been trying to figure out which chemical(s) causes one to dream but couldn't find anything on this subject. All I could find was an explanation that the reason why someone fully wakes up due to a dream is because the body reacts to what happens in the dream because the mind sees what happens in a dream to be real, which in turn causes some parts of the brain to also get activated which in turn causes someone to get fully awake during a dream... Makes sense to me...

 

Everybody dreams every night. But unless you wake up during the dream, or immediately after it, you wont remember your nightly dreams, since the brain deletes them soon after it. This is the reason why nightmares are more often remembered, because nightmares are more likely to wake you up.

 

So if your dreams aren't nightmares, but pleasant ones, I would say that it is likely that the dreams are not the cause of your sleep problems, remembering them is more like a symptom. You remember the dreams because your sleep problem awakes you before your brain has thrown your dreams to Recycle Bin and emptied it. 

 

 

Symptom of what/which sleep disorder? I experience that if I do not wake-up from the dream, the dream will continue, this ongoing of a dream is what fully wakes me up. The normal recycling of dreams I also experience, I mainly remember who were in my dream rather than remembering the exact dream (the dreams that are too pleasant, like winning a jackpot I do recall but if it's a random one remembering it only takes a minute or few). I even sometimes have lucid dreams although I'm not trained to have them, sometimes I'm awake and dreaming at the same time, I hear/realize everything that happens in my environment and at the same time I go with the flow about the things I'm dreaming. This really only happens occasionally and those moments are the most pleasant/relaxing/refreshing sleep I can wish for (I guess it's sort of how meditation is supposed to feel like, don't know). Anyway, I rather have deep sleep like normal people where I do not wake-up or don't realize that I have woken up and fell back to sleep again. This light-sleeping/frequently waking up that has been going on for a year is agitating and non-refreshing.



#17 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:10 AM

You could have what I have - PERIODIC LIMB-MOVEMENT DISORDER. It's when you move your limbs while sleeping, which then prevents you from going into stage 4 sleep, as the movements actually cause feedback into your brain which then slightly, slightly wake up, preventing the true, refreshing stage 4 sleep from happening.

 

https://en.wikipedia...vement_disorder

 

It should be noted, that some antipsychotics worsen the symptoms of this disease, and ALCOHOL definitively worsens it - it's one of the first things they ask you about, when doing the examination. The disease is also worsened by significant stress - and a psychosis is certainly stressful! I didn't experience any truly bad symptoms of the disease until I had my burnout, which I suppose in some aspects are similar to psychosis, since it causes loss of white-matter and emotional distress as well.

 

 

A few months back I spoke to a schiz' whom wakes with his bed terribly untidy, and awfully tired, we came to the conclusion that it was PLMD worsened by his antipsychotics.

 

No matter what, anyone with such serious problems with sleep, as you have, NEEDS to do a sleep-study.

 

 

Gabapentin is one of the drugs which shortens stage 3 sleep (dreams) and increases stage 4 - I suggest you try it out.

 

 

On another note - I have also had several sleep-paralysis / lucid dreaming moments when I was younger - and I have, according to my parents, always made the bizarre jerky movements of PLMD when I sleep. Something to consider, perhaps...

 

 

EDIT:

 

One of the antipsychotics which improve stage 4 sleep is apparently OLANZAPINE  (zyprexa) - so that might be the Antipsychotic you should focus on. However, I actually think this might be one of the drugs you're actually using, isn't it??

Consider diving off a small dose for sleep though, it might help.


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 16 September 2017 - 08:18 AM.


#18 YoungSchizo

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:26 PM

I have no idea if I have PLMD but I guess I will find out with the sleep-study.

 

The thing with alcohol is that this issue started way before the use of alcohol. This started right after my last psychosis last year in September. And yes, (chronic) stress may be the biggest contributor for my sleep-disorder. I've been chronically stressed for 9 of the 12 years that I suffer from schizophrenia. 

Yes, I'm already on Zyprexa (2.5mg) but am not planning to raise it (yet). Because if I raise it one of my positive symptoms get worse (yes, it does the opposite than it's designed for) and second because I gain to much weight with a higher dosage. If I up my dosage of Parnate I might give it a shot though, maybe it'll compensate/level each other. But I'm reluctant and cautious with the use of antipsychotics (they're chemical crap) so it's too early to mix and match, I have put all of my hope into Pregabalin.

 

Sleep paralysis is scary shit ain't it... One time it happened to me I was dreaming that I was dreaming and I felt the urge to wake-up. Eventually, I managed to wake-up from that dream, only to realize that it was a dream within a dream and I still was dreaming and needed to wake-up for real..! I tried to scream/kick/move but with no avail. After a serious struggle I woke up from the limbo!  :cool:  Though, the thing with sleep paralysis is is after it happens a couple of times you get "used" to it luckily and recognize when it hits you, makes it much easier to deal with.

 

Anyway, I haven't found an answer to my question, since even adding Melatonin to MAOI's could be dangerous, can I mix forms of Magnesium to Parnate? If so, which form of Magnesium should I try?



#19 YoungSchizo

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:30 PM

Meanwhile while I'm still waiting for a sleep-study I'm still suffering from waking up frequently. Only in the weekend when I drink alcohol it interacts with Gabapentin and sometimes I sleep 8-10 hours straight or only wake-up 1-2 times.

I've noticed the past two weeks that I may have developed a slight tolerance to Gabapentin and that I'm getting irritable when I wake-up more than two times in 3-4 hours (due to dreams).

What I do when I'm unable to fall asleep quickly. I get out of bed, take my 20mg Parnate, drink a coffee and sit for 3-4 hours before going to bed again. I've noticed that in the second part (in the afternoon) of my sleep I almost have no dreams at all and my sleep is solid, most of the times my sleep is so deep/enjoyable I'm unable to get out of bed and sleep 4-6-8 hours.

How is this possible? Thoughts?

Edited by YoungSchizo, 05 January 2018 - 05:33 PM.


#20 YoungSchizo

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 10:27 PM

I've finally finished my sleep study (polysonogram) and the result is quite unsatisfactory. I do not suffer from apnea or something like that. I've been told I suffer from a severe sleep/wake cycle. I'm a "night owl" and sleep towards the morning because at night I'm able to finally relax and my schizophrenia/mood symptoms are at it's lowest at night. I enjoy this and therefore I don't want to give it up. The only thing they advised me is to talk with a sleep psychologist, I doubt this will change anything. I have no idea how to fix sleep maintenance insomnia. It's been more than 1.5 years, 10 different sleep meds and I still suffer.

Anyone suggestions on which step to take next?

-EDIT- according to the polysonogram my sleep-cycles turned out quite "normal" but the case is, it's NOT! Waking up 10 times a night due to dreaming is not normal!

Edited by YoungSchizo, 06 May 2018 - 10:40 PM.


#21 Caravaggio

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 12:06 PM

I found that L-Histidine fixes my reversed circadian rhythm.

 

I think it's because L-Histidine is a precursor for histamine which is responsible for wakefulness.

 

I take 1.5 g in the evening. Cofactors are zinc and B6.

 

I sleep like a stone since taking it, when not waking up due to urinay urgency. I also get extremely tired when it gets darker outside, just how it's supposed to be.

 

Medicines (Basel). 2018 Mar 24;5(2). pii: E27. doi: 10.3390/medicines5020027.

Genetic Variations Associated with Sleep Disorders in Patients with Schizophrenia: A Systematic Review.
Assimakopoulos K, Karaivazoglou K, Skokou M, Kalogeropoulou M, Kolios P, Gourzis P, Patrinos GP, Tsermpini EE

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29587340

 

"Conclusions: There are significant genetic associations between schizophrenia and co-morbid sleep disorders, implicating the circadian system, dopamine and histamine metabolism and signal transduction pathways."

 

Because antihistamines don't lower histamine, they just block the receptors, the Mirtazapine could actually raise your histamine because you force your body to produce more histamine as it notes there is no histamine on the receptors (blocked by Mirtazapine).


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#22 YoungSchizo

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:57 PM

I found that L-Histidine fixes my reversed circadian rhythm.

 

I think it's because L-Histidine is a precursor for histamine which is responsible for wakefulness.

 

I take 1.5 g in the evening. Cofactors are zinc and B6.

 

I sleep like a stone since taking it, when not waking up due to urinay urgency. I also get extremely tired when it gets darker outside, just how it's supposed to be.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29587340

 

"Conclusions: There are significant genetic associations between schizophrenia and co-morbid sleep disorders, implicating the circadian system, dopamine and histamine metabolism and signal transduction pathways."

 

Because antihistamines don't lower histamine, they just block the receptors, the Mirtazapine could actually raise your histamine because you force your body to produce more histamine as it notes there is no histamine on the receptors (blocked by Mirtazapine).

 

Thank you for your reply. I will definitely research L-Histidine!

 

That's actually why Mirtazapine, and no other drug works so great for me. But the down-side, I feel tired when waking up and wired (brain-foggish) for almost the rest of the day. Also the interaction between Mirtazapine and Latuda is severe. Once I get my hands on Cariprazine (antipsychotic) I will have a chance to throw my current med-regimen upside down. More than 3 years of suffering from sleeping disorder is enough! 



#23 Hyperflux

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:53 PM

How do Gabapentin, Baclofen, and Pregablin compare for the purposes of increasing sleep quality due to a sleep disorder? I know that GHB/Xyrem is king but it's very difficult to get prescribed whereas the other three as easy.



#24 YoungSchizo

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:16 PM

How do Gabapentin, Baclofen, and Pregablin compare for the purposes of increasing sleep quality due to a sleep disorder? I know that GHB/Xyrem is king but it's very difficult to get prescribed whereas the other three as easy.

 

I have Gabapentin, the one from Europe helped but I build a tolerance to it within 2 weeks, the one from Asia didn't help at all. If I push my pdoc to prescribe me Pregabalin, she will have no choice to eventually prescribe it to me (since I also suffer from anxiety [Pregabalin is indicated as an anxiolytic drug in Europe, not for sleep disorders]). Baclofen (I had a quick look on the Dutch wiki), it's indicated as an autism and drug/alcoholism withdrawal drug, which I don't qualify for. I think Xyrem (don't know the European name of the drug but I remember it was researched and maybe approved in the EU), there's no way (with Dutch guidelines in psychiatry) I can get my hands on it.



#25 Finn

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 04:47 AM

I've finally finished my sleep study (polysonogram) and the result is quite unsatisfactory. I do not suffer from apnea or something like that. I've been told I suffer from a severe sleep/wake cycle. I'm a "night owl" and sleep towards the morning because at night I'm able to finally relax and my schizophrenia/mood symptoms are at it's lowest at night. I enjoy this and therefore I don't want to give it up. The only thing they advised me is to talk with a sleep psychologist, I doubt this will change anything. I have no idea how to fix sleep maintenance insomnia. It's been more than 1.5 years, 10 different sleep meds and I still suffer.

Anyone suggestions on which step to take next?

-EDIT- according to the polysonogram my sleep-cycles turned out quite "normal" but the case is, it's NOT! Waking up 10 times a night due to dreaming is not normal!

 

Relaxation, and decrease in schizophrenia/mood symptoms could be connected to the same processes that are preparing your body to sleep. If this is so, giving up this habit of staying up could lead to huge gains schizophrenia/mood symptoms in few months. Going to sleep at the right time is huge boost to sleep quality and thus mental health in the long run. Maybe you are waking up a lot because your circadian clock is waking you up, if you go to sleep at right time this should stop. I don't think there is pharmaceutical substance that enables you to have a good quality sleep at a time that is wrong for your circadian clock. Certain military units use "no-go" and "go" pills to get some sleep when they can, even though the time is wrong for their circadian clock, and then to properly wake up especially if they have just been flown from other side of the world, but the quality of the sleep isn't that good, they certainly couldn't do it for long periods without paying a huge price.


Edited by Finn, 12 May 2018 - 05:00 AM.


#26 Dichotohmy

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 06:45 PM


-EDIT- according to the polysonogram my sleep-cycles turned out quite "normal" but the case is, it's NOT! Waking up 10 times a night due to dreaming is not normal!

 

Do you have access to the report that the grading neurologist or sleep specialist wrote up in regards to your polysomnogram? Do you have a break down of total time spent in each phase of sleep (N1, N2, N3, REM)? Is there any mention, or index of non-specific or "spontaneous" arousals in the report? Is there any mention of respiratory-effort-related arousals, hyponea, or limb movements - though obviously those things would fall below the threshold of diagnosis? There has to be something in the report. Don't just take the doctor's word for it that your results are normal, because "normal" here is doctor speak for "the results in and of themselves don't satisfy the diagnostic criteria for XY or Z." You could very well have some results that are sub-clinical for diagnosis XY or Z, and thus cause significant problems, but which results don't meet an arbitrary cutoff. 

 

Maybe you are waking up a lot because your circadian clock is waking you up, if you go to sleep at right time this should stop. I don't think there is pharmaceutical substance that enables you to have a good quality sleep at a time that is wrong for your circadian clock. Certain military units use "no-go" and "go" pills to get some sleep when they can, even though the time is wrong for their circadian clock, and then to properly wake up especially if they have just been flown from other side of the world, but the quality of the sleep isn't that good, they certainly couldn't do it for long periods without paying a huge price.

 

This is a good point, because YoungSchizo mentions being a night owl and usually going to bed at morning time. This would both no doubt skew the results of his polysomnogram, seeing as how the test would have been conducted at night, and indeed, poor quality sleep is inevitable if you are trying to sleep outside of your natural circadian rhythm. Now, in the case of suffering from DSPS, YoungSchizo's schedule would be a natural circadian rhythm. On the other hand, if he really is programmed for a normal diurnal sleep schedule, and is just following a delayed sleep schedule for whatever reason, that could certainly explain the poor quality sleep.



#27 YoungSchizo

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 11:44 PM

Relaxation, and decrease in schizophrenia/mood symptoms could be connected to the same processes that are preparing your body to sleep. If this is so, giving up this habit of staying up could lead to huge gains schizophrenia/mood symptoms in few months. Going to sleep at the right time is huge boost to sleep quality and thus mental health in the long run. Maybe you are waking up a lot because your circadian clock is waking you up, if you go to sleep at right time this should stop. I don't think there is pharmaceutical substance that enables you to have a good quality sleep at a time that is wrong for your circadian clock. Certain military units use "no-go" and "go" pills to get some sleep when they can, even though the time is wrong for their circadian clock, and then to properly wake up especially if they have just been flown from other side of the world, but the quality of the sleep isn't that good, they certainly couldn't do it for long periods without paying a huge price.

 

I doubt going to bed earlier will resolve my sleeping disorder. It's been 16 years that I'm a "nigh-owl", I guess by now my circadian clock has adjusted itself to this kind of sleeping behavior, no?

 

 

Do you have access to the report that the grading neurologist or sleep specialist wrote up in regards to your polysomnogram? Do you have a break down of total time spent in each phase of sleep (N1, N2, N3, REM)? Is there any mention, or index of non-specific or "spontaneous" arousals in the report? Is there any mention of respiratory-effort-related arousals, hyponea, or limb movements - though obviously those things would fall below the threshold of diagnosis? There has to be something in the report. Don't just take the doctor's word for it that your results are normal, because "normal" here is doctor speak for "the results in and of themselves don't satisfy the diagnostic criteria for XY or Z." You could very well have some results that are sub-clinical for diagnosis XY or Z, and thus cause significant problems, but which results don't meet an arbitrary cutoff. 

 

 

This is a good point, because YoungSchizo mentions being a night owl and usually going to bed at morning time. This would both no doubt skew the results of his polysomnogram, seeing as how the test would have been conducted at night, and indeed, poor quality sleep is inevitable if you are trying to sleep outside of your natural circadian rhythm. Now, in the case of suffering from DSPS, YoungSchizo's schedule would be a natural circadian rhythm. On the other hand, if he really is programmed for a normal diurnal sleep schedule, and is just following a delayed sleep schedule for whatever reason, that could certainly explain the poor quality sleep.

 

Now your asking me something, I have no idea about the detailed report (I don't even know if they have a detailed report). We've looked at the result of the polysomnogram together with the doc, however she didn't mention anything about the different sleep phases. The only thing she mentioned was that my deep-sleep phase was 1.5 hours, which she told me was normal. I asked her to look specifically and to tell me more about the phases where I was dreaming and waking up. From the polysomnogram graph this wasn't really clear and she had no clear answer to it..

 

Like Caravaggio mentions, my sleeping disorder is directly linked to schizophrenia. When I had my first psychosis (13 years ago) my sleep disorder started. I was able to suppress it with Zyprexa, after adding Mirtazapine (8 years ago) my sleep quality got even better. However, after a psychosis 1.5 years ago, all of a sudden my sleep became superficial and I started waking up frequently. I was only on 7.5mg of Mirtazapine at that time (that was the right dose on which the interaction with Latuda was minimal). I had to increase my dosage of Mirtazapine to 15/30mg which in one way benefited my sleep but it also caused it to interact with Latuda again. Meanwhile in the 1.5 years that I wake up frequently due to dreaming I tried 10 different other "sleep" meds in order to get rid of the combo Mirtazapine/Latuda, they all failed on me. Zyprexa is a drug that works for me on lower dosages, on larger dosages it gives me more positive symptoms rather than less. Mirtazapine was once a life-saver, tempering my racing thoughts and night-worries. Therefore I know for almost 100% this may have nothing to with my sleeping habits (being a night owl) but I think (since my polysomnogram turned out "normal") and suspect the combination of Latuda and Mirtazapine playing a big role in the problems I face right now. And one thing is almost for sure, if I go to bed earlier, it won't resolve anything because a natural sleep with my schizophrenia and without sleeping meds is a wish and a sweet dream.

 

I guess my next step is to get of the combo Mirtazapine/Latuda and try different combinations of antipsychotics and sleep meds.

 

btw what is DSPS?



#28 Galaxyshock

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 10:35 AM

Reishi and Cordyceps increase non-rem sleep and long term promote slow-wave sleep.



#29 prunk

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 02:54 PM

I'm pretty sure reishi gave me horrible insomnia for almost 2 weeks. Really strange.

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#30 Galaxyshock

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 01:30 PM

I'm pretty sure reishi gave me horrible insomnia for almost 2 weeks. Really strange.

 

I found that higher doses (2 or more teaspoons) of Reishi sometimes ruined sleep while normal dose ½ - 1 teaspoon improved it. Cordyceps I can take big amounts without issues.







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