5 replies to this topic

[ukw]

Flavonoids are a confusing subject. They are a "health fad" and people write about the benefits of flavonoids fruits and vegetables but their opinions are wildly at odds with each other.

 

Consider this: the below article is about how flavonoids can help block prostate disease/cancer because they are "estrogenic":

 

http://onlinelibrary...99.00270.x/full

 

 

Recently, several commonly occurring plant flavonoids have been shown to possess weak oestrogenic activity [ 12]. In particular, apigenin and kaempferol, both of which are oestrogenic, are regarded as two of the major flavonoids

 

Then you look up these flavanols and find out they're actually aromatase-inhibitors that boost testosterone which would be bad for prostate cancer. So which side claims that propaganda? The "breast-cancer" side, the bodybuilders, and those who want to increase their testosterone:

 

http://appliedergoge...e-you-star.html

 

"Bodybuilders would find apigenin useful because it's a natural aromatase inhibitor."

 

http://www.ironmagaz...sterone-levels/

 

"Apigenin – Everyday vegetables such as celery, onions and parsley contain testosterone-enhancing substances that, as we age, prevent our testosterone production from declining. Researchers at Texas Tech University discovered this. In the Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry they describe the experiments they did with apigenin, a promising testosterone booster, that’s found in high quantities in parsley"
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2939222/

 

the present study demonstrates that apigenin is able to enhance StAR gene expression and steroid hormone production in mouse Leydig cells

 

Had enough? Now just for kicks, let's go back to the Prostate-Cancer side that loves flavonoids for slashing testosterone, reducing AR activity, and improving estrogen.

 

https://www.research...prostate_cancer

 

Four main flavonols - quercetin, myricetin, kaempferol, and fisetin - have been demonstrated in laboratory studies to have chemopreventive action in both castrate-resistant and castrate-sensitive PCa models. Mechanisms of flavonol action on the AR axis in PCa have been proposed to be inhibition of the 5α-reductase enzymes, direct androgen competition, suppression of the AR complex
Anti-androgenic effects of flavonols in prostate cancer (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.research...prostate_cancer [accessed Sep 7, 2017].

 

It's really quite amazing. When it comes to both life and science, there are competing factions and each will claim a health fad as its own, never mind the obvious absurdity of opposing claims.

It's like phytoestrogens. 50% of studies, articles and opinions will claim "phytoestrogens are estrogenic" and "contribute to estrogen dominance," the other 50%will claim "no no they are anti-estrogenic, because they actually COMPETE with estrogen, so they boost testosterone."

I've come to the conclusion that there are limits to science, or at least in how we use science.

Edited by ukw, 07 September 2017 - 11:21 PM.

[joelcairo]

Genistein is another so-called estrogenic compound. There is scads of evidence demonstrating that these flavonols (among others) do indeed have anticancer properties, but they each have a myriad of measurable effects and there's probably no way to reduce it down to one principal effect.

 

I'm not a chemist, but from my reading it's not obvious that such phytonutrients have a significant biological effect on human sex hormone function. Their anticancer effect seems to come more from reducing inflammation and blocking the action of growth hormones such as VEGF.

[ukw]

Yup. But nevertheless these substances (flavonoids, etc.) are often discussed directly in terms of sex-hormone impact, and multiple studies do make those claims -- again, absurdly at odds with each other, and no one raises an eyebrow!

 

Flaxseed is a good example of the ridiculousness I'm talking about:

 

1) Flaxseed is usually touted on hair-loss forums as an anti-androgen, a DHT blocker, etc. -- millions of links, I won't even bother listing them here, you can find them in a millisecond

2) At the same time, flaxseed is praised on breast-cancer forums as a pro-androgen, meaning an anti-estrogen:

 

https://elynjacobs.c...s-to-tamoxifen/

 

Flaxseed–The lignans in flax are phytoestrogens, but they actually bind to estrogen receptors in the body and work a bit like Tamoxifen, as they hop on the estrogen and bind up these hormones and carcinogens and remove them from the body

 

If you believe both of these, the net effect of Flaxseed is 0. It slashes both T and E and leaves you exactly where you were.

 

One side claims lignans/phytoestrogens/etc. mimic estrogen, the other side claims they block estrogens. It's like a game with a political agenda, with science always ready to back up either claim. Truthfully, you can find supporting evidence for any claim you wish to make, just type a phrase into Google and all sorts of studies/articles will pop up.

 

My firm belief is that scientists are in no way smarter than we are. We ourselves should know and listen to our bodies.

Edited by ukw, 08 September 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[sativa]

My firm belief is that scientists are in no way smarter than we are. We ourselves should know and listen to our bodies.

I totally agree with you, I have learned that its best to learn about and thus become aware of & discover all aspects of my bio-physiology and make fully informed decisions - whilst not relying on external interpretation. These external perspectives provide contrast, which makes them valuable to me.

I have balanced countless aspects of my biology, all of which I wouldn't have considered possible/feasible if I hadn't been open minded to expand my perspective and world view.

For example hay fever, food allergies, vision (no more glasses!), overall cognition (thanks piracetam & psychedelics), general stamina and fitness (suma root, cissus, adaptogens, NAC, CoQ10, magnesium)

I quite enjoy the substances that have a 'refreshing' and 'rejuvenating' bio-physiological effects. Many of these substances (or in combination) also have tolerance lowering properties!
Notably:

Magnesium
Black seed (seeds or oil)
NAC
Rhodiola
Milk thistle
Palmitoylethanolamide
Lobelia

Edited by sativa, 23 September 2017 - 07:55 PM.

[mateusbrasil]

"studies conclude it isn't so conclusive" lmao

[Heisok]

sativa,

 

I am curious how you use Palmitoylethanolamide (PEA)?

 

One of us did not notice an effect on pain at doses from 400, 700, 800, up to 1050 mg We had both 400 and 350 mg versions. I tried it only because I do not want to suggest something without trying myself. I would like to use up what I have left, so if I have something to watch for from taking it, it would be worth tracking.

 

Thanks.