35 replies to this topic

[Anomie]

Thanks ahead of time I really need help here and am pretty desperate. If anyone has knowledge in this area and can share some advice I would really appreciate it.

 

So long story short I've been suffering from pretty severe depression, anhedonia for about a year now. I'm bipolar II, in mid 30's, and have had symptoms on and off since I was a teenager. This past year has been especially brutal and seemingly unusually bad, long, won't go away, etc.

 

I've had low libido among other low T symptoms so I got my hormones checked and found that my levels are on the borderline low side. These are the results:

 

T: 317 ng/dL

T Free: 54 pg/mL 

T Free: 1.7%

SHBG: 37 nmol/L

Estradiol by TMS: 23.1 pg/mL

FSH: 7 IU/L

LH: 9.6 IU/L

 

The local doctors refuse TRT because they say it's not low enough. It has to be under 300 I guess? I have the option to go through a remote clinic but it is quite costly. It's about $500 to get completely started and then maybe a few hundred bucks a year. I don't have a lot of income right now so this is a really big expense for me.

 

My question is, do you think TRT getting my levels up in to the medium / upper range would have a significantly positive impact on my depression / anhedonia? This is about the worst case of it I've ever had and I feel like there is something else wrong with me than the usual bipolar II symptoms I've been accustomed to.

 

 

[Deaden]

Why do you want to go to a remote clinic? What do they do there? Most likely is a waste of money anyway...

So you have anhedonia in the sense that all your emotions are numbed or do you have depression in the way that you feel very down and less pleasure from previous enjoyable activities but still able to feel emotions just more rarely if the stimulus is intense enough? If you have anhedonia you can join this discord: http://www.longecity...edonia-discord/ and I will help you

[Anomie]

Why do you want to go to a remote clinic? What do they do there? Most likely is a waste of money anyway...

So you have anhedonia in the sense that all your emotions are numbed or do you have depression in the way that you feel very down and less pleasure from previous enjoyable activities but still able to feel emotions just more rarely if the stimulus is intense enough? If you have anhedonia you can join this discord: http://www.longecity...edonia-discord/ and I will help you

 

For some reason there is a reluctance to treat low testosterone unless it is below 300. Many believe anything under 400-500 is low, others think its 280. The two local doctors I've gone to refuse to treat mine at 317 for some unknown reason, they are not forthright about it and it is a very common problem all over the U.S.

 

The remote clinic specializes in TRT and they will treat people who are in the 300-400 range as they believe that is too low. Yeah it's a money making operation and that is why I am looking for opinions outside of the pro TRT community. If you ask them they all swear up and down you definitely need it so I was looking for something unbiased.

 

The anhedonia seems more tied to depression than anything. In the past I've been very depressed but could still enjoy things like playing video games or watching a good movie, it provided a lot of relief. Now the problem is I have a very, very hard time enjoying anything and have almost zero interest in anything. This is fairly unusual for me as even at my worst I had a deep down drive or motivation to overcome my problems or do something positive. That has been mostly gone this last year and so is part of why I thought it may have something to do with hormones as well.

 

So I'm debating whether $500 is worth the gamble on TRT or whether I should put it towards other treatment options. It's very hard to find information on what levels are too low, at what level somebody might experience symptoms, everyone is different. It's really a hard thing to estimate but I have all the symptoms to a T.

 

I might check out the anhedonia discord too, thanks.

[jaybird10 2]

 

Why do you want to go to a remote clinic? What do they do there? Most likely is a waste of money anyway...

So you have anhedonia in the sense that all your emotions are numbed or do you have depression in the way that you feel very down and less pleasure from previous enjoyable activities but still able to feel emotions just more rarely if the stimulus is intense enough? If you have anhedonia you can join this discord: http://www.longecity...edonia-discord/ and I will help you

 

For some reason there is a reluctance to treat low testosterone unless it is below 300. Many believe anything under 400-500 is low, others think its 280. The two local doctors I've gone to refuse to treat mine at 317 for some unknown reason, they are not forthright about it and it is a very common problem all over the U.S.

 

The remote clinic specializes in TRT and they will treat people who are in the 300-400 range as they believe that is too low. Yeah it's a money making operation and that is why I am looking for opinions outside of the pro TRT community. If you ask them they all swear up and down you definitely need it so I was looking for something unbiased.

 

The anhedonia seems more tied to depression than anything. In the past I've been very depressed but could still enjoy things like playing video games or watching a good movie, it provided a lot of relief. Now the problem is I have a very, very hard time enjoying anything and have almost zero interest in anything. This is fairly unusual for me as even at my worst I had a deep down drive or motivation to overcome my problems or do something positive. That has been mostly gone this last year and so is part of why I thought it may have something to do with hormones as well.

 

So I'm debating whether $500 is worth the gamble on TRT or whether I should put it towards other treatment options. It's very hard to find information on what levels are too low, at what level somebody might experience symptoms, everyone is different. It's really a hard thing to estimate but I have all the symptoms to a T.

 

I might check out the anhedonia discord too, thanks.

 

 

I think getting your testosterone optimized along with other hormones will contribute to your wellbeing for sure. You have to get with a knowledgeable doctor tho. Defy medical, doctor mariano etc . Check out the peak testosterone forum theres guys there that will help you for sure. Post your blood test along with reference ranges and they ll guide you the right way.
 

[Junk Master]

I AM NOT SUGGESTING IT, but it's very well known in MMA circles if you are looking for a medical exemption to use TRT then just do a cycle, which will suppress your natural production....

 

At the level you are at, I'd bet a short cycle of the SARM LG-4033 would be suppressive enough, require no needles, and be far easier to obtain.

 

 

[Anomie]

 

I think getting your testosterone optimized along with other hormones will contribute to your wellbeing for sure. You have to get with a knowledgeable doctor tho. Defy medical, doctor mariano etc . Check out the peak testosterone forum theres guys there that will help you for sure. Post your blood test along with reference ranges and they ll guide you the right way.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm leaning towards in the long run this is something I would want to do anyway just to make sure I'm not losing out on something that could be helping me feel better and also improve my physical health. Defy is actually who I have been in contact with and have been considering. I've been to the T forums and they were really helpful, they're just all T evangelicals though so it's unclear whether they're truly objective in their assessments.

[Anomie]

I AM NOT SUGGESTING IT, but it's very well known in MMA circles if you are looking for a medical exemption to use TRT then just do a cycle, which will suppress your natural production....

 

At the level you are at, I'd bet a short cycle of the SARM LG-4033 would be suppressive enough, require no needles, and be far easier to obtain.

 

Interesting, would I take a cycle, wait 2-3 weeks, then get blood drawn? If you have a link to some concrete info on exactly how to dose and time this that would be awesome.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm... don't be too quick to jump on TRT - as you're probably aware, if you do this, then it's generally FOR LIFE - there's no going back, and then you'll have smashed your natural production permanently.

 

Instead, let's have a look at what actually causes a young man like you to have low T - unless one has hypogonadism, which is generally a birth-defect, then it might actually be reversible.

 

 

What do you do for a living? What kinds of things are you exposed to, that might lower your T? Can you change something there, which might bring your T up? There's all sorts of info about various things which supposedly lowers T, perhaps you can apply ALL of those small things, and eventually get your T up, in say, a months time?

 

You guys who know about exercise and muscle-building, what sorts of things are needed to get your natural T up?

 

 

BTW... in the meantime, since you're Bipolar, I recommend going on Aripiprazole, since it's known to increase libido as well as LOWER PROLACTIN, which should make your T a bit more dominant.

 

 

EDIT:

Let's go through some info on the causes of Low Test btw, and see if any of them apply to you:

 

http://www.healthlin...nder-30#causes3

 

• high cholesterol levels
• high blood pressure
• being overweight or obese

The above can of course be corrected via STRICT dietary changes.

 

 

• drinking excessive amounts of alcohol
• using illegal drugs
• using anabolic steroids
• taking certain prescription medications such as steroids and opiates, especially in excess

I take it you have done none of the above?

 

 

Some cases of low T may be linked to other medical conditions, such as:

• hypothalamic or pituitary disease or tumors
• injuries, tumors, or other conditions affecting your testicles including inflammation related to childhood mumps
• inherited diseases, such as Kallman’s syndrome, Prader-Willi syndrome, Klinefelter syndrome, or Down syndrome
• diabetes, liver disease, or AIDS
• cancer treatments such as radiation and chemotherapy

Have you considered getting scans of your hypothalamus and your testicles? If I were you, I'd make sure I don't have anything like a tumour, dude...

 

 

EDIT2:

There's some more info here:
 

http://www.healthlin...-causes#causes3

 

Hmm... says something about how TOO MUCH IRON in the blood can cause this... have you checked your iron-levels? If, for some reason, you have insane amounts of iron in your blood, then it should be possible to simply supplement with metals which compete with iron, and solve the problem!

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 14 September 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Junk Master]

Again, I agree with much of what Stinkorninjor is saying, TRT is for life.

 

But he's one example from elitefitness of how suppressive LGD-4033 can be.

 

Two weeks:

 

Weeks 1 - 8: 3mg LGD ED

Blood work on day 0 of cycle:
Total Test: 15.0 nmol/L (8.6 - 29.0)
SHBG: 34.5 nmol/L (17 - 66)
LH: 3.7 mIU/ml (1.7 -8.6)
FSH: 2.9 mIU/ml (1.5 - 12.4)

Blood work on day 14 of cycle:
Total test: 5.3 nmol/L (8.6 - 29.0)
SHBG: results due 8 September 
LH / FSH: not done 

 

 

There are numerous places to get your own bloodwork done for reasonable prices, if you had any doubt, before going to be tested by a Doc again.

 

 

[Anomie]

Hmm... don't be too quick to jump on TRT - as you're probably aware, if you do this, then it's generally FOR LIFE - there's no going back, and then you'll have smashed your natural production permanently.

 

Instead, let's have a look at what actually causes a young man like you to have low T - unless one has hypogonadism, which is generally a birth-defect, then it might actually be reversible.

 

 

What do you do for a living? What kinds of things are you exposed to, that might lower your T? Can you change something there, which might bring your T up? There's all sorts of info about various things which supposedly lowers T, perhaps you can apply ALL of those small things, and eventually get your T up, in say, a months time?

 

You guys who know about exercise and muscle-building, what sorts of things are needed to get your natural T up?

 

 

BTW... in the meantime, since you're Bipolar, I recommend going on Aripiprazole, since it's known to increase libido as well as LOWER PROLACTIN, which should make your T a bit more dominant.

 

 

EDIT:

Let's go through some info on the causes of Low Test btw, and see if any of them apply to you:

 

http://www.healthlin...nder-30#causes3

 

• high cholesterol levels
• high blood pressure
• being overweight or obese

The above can of course be corrected via STRICT dietary changes.

 

 

• drinking excessive amounts of alcohol
• using illegal drugs
• using anabolic steroids
• taking certain prescription medications such as steroids and opiates, especially in excess

I take it you have done none of the above?

 

 

Some cases of low T may be linked to other medical conditions, such as:

• hypothalamic or pituitary disease or tumors
• injuries, tumors, or other conditions affecting your testicles including inflammation related to childhood mumps
• inherited diseases, such as Kallman’s syndrome, Prader-Willi syndrome, Klinefelter syndrome, or Down syndrome
• diabetes, liver disease, or AIDS
• cancer treatments such as radiation and chemotherapy

Have you considered getting scans of your hypothalamus and your testicles? If I were you, I'd make sure I don't have anything like a tumour, dude...

 

 

EDIT2:

There's some more info here:
 

http://www.healthlin...-causes#causes3

 

Hmm... says something about how TOO MUCH IRON in the blood can cause this... have you checked your iron-levels? If, for some reason, you have insane amounts of iron in your blood, then it should be possible to simply supplement with metals which compete with iron, and solve the problem!

 

Thanks for all the ideas...

 

Yeah I'm on the fence where I don't really want to commit to this unless I have to, it's definitely a gamble. I went to a urologist, they did an ultrasound, all good. One of my problems is my left testicle is somewhat retractile so it spends time up almost in my abdomen and some time hanging normally. That along with being behind a computer all day for work is definitely cooking my balls which I know is terrible but I haven't thought of what I can do to fix this except maybe getting a more "breathable" chair. There's a surgery to pin the retractile testicle down but it's not covered by insurance and is thousands so I passed. I think I have "secondary hypogonadism" they said. My LH is quite high as my body is signally it wants more T but my balls aren't properly producing it or its getting destroyed by heat, not sure. They didn't really have an answer for me other than lose weight.

 

I'm obese and my diet is poor. It is something I have struggled with and tried to change for many years but continuously fail. I'm going to try again here to turn things around for a few months and then get another test to see where my T is at. I lifted weights last night and it seemed to make me feel better almost immediately. I'll probably spend some money on supplements and a few things to get a small home gym / exercise thing going on and see if I can work my way out of this. I know fruit and veggies, unprocessed foods, exercise, is the ticket to success, I just haven't been able to stick with it these last few years and was hoping TRT could help push me in the right direction, but I think it's worth another shot at this point to do it "right".

 

Being Bipolar II it's hard to pragmatically work towards goals because as my mood goes up and down it often derails me from whatever routine I'm working on and then I have to get back into it once I start feeling better. I've never tried abilifiy, looking at Wikipedia it looks like its mostly for anti mania (I only get hypomanic and isn't a huge problem) but maybe doesn't help much with bipolar depression which is 70% of my issue along with ultradian rapid cycling, but it says it helps with major depression, hard to say but possibly worth a shot. Right now I'm taking low dose cymbalta, just 15mg because if I take 30 or 60 the side effects are too much, so I take just enough to keep my worst moods out of the gutter most days.

 

I don't drink or do drugs or smoke, I quit that years ago, which is kind of annoying because I "turned my life around" but not really, still have the same old problems that probably set me on the path of drugs and alcohol in the first place. I was thin back then too, hah. Did full bloodwork, thyroid, etc. nothing else going on that they could find other than slightly high cholesterol.

 

Thanks for the ideas, it really helps to think out loud and hear other points of view. I'm reconsidering TRT and may try to whip myself back into shape the hard way. 

[Anomie]

Again, I agree with much of what Stinkorninjor is saying, TRT is for life.

 

But he's one example from elitefitness of how suppressive LGD-4033 can be.

 

Two weeks:

 

Weeks 1 - 8: 3mg LGD ED

Blood work on day 0 of cycle:
Total Test: 15.0 nmol/L (8.6 - 29.0)
SHBG: 34.5 nmol/L (17 - 66)
LH: 3.7 mIU/ml (1.7 -8.6)
FSH: 2.9 mIU/ml (1.5 - 12.4)

Blood work on day 14 of cycle:
Total test: 5.3 nmol/L (8.6 - 29.0)
SHBG: results due 8 September 
LH / FSH: not done 

 

 

There are numerous places to get your own bloodwork done for reasonable prices, if you had any doubt, before going to be tested by a Doc again.

 

Wow yeah that is a 3x decrease. I will keep this as a backup plan if all else fails.

[jack black]

I agree with Stinkorninjor that 

 

• being overweight or obese

is probably #1 cause of 2ndary hypogonadism these days.

But it's not easy to lose weight while affected by low T (lack of energy and hence no willpower to do anything). In my case, I took HCG injections (low dose daily) first to jump start my low calorie diet. That gave me about 25 lbs weight loss. Later I followed by 2000 mg metformin and 150 mg Li2CO3 per day and lost additional 16 lbs. I had opportunity to pursue TRT with my doc, but decided not to and went my own way and I'm very happy about the outcome.

 

 

 

 

I'm obese and my diet is poor. It is something I have struggled with and tried to change for many years but continuously fail. I'm going to try again here to turn things around for a few months and then get another test to see where my T is at. I lifted weights last night and it seemed to make me feel better almost immediately. I'll probably spend some money on supplements and a few things to get a small home gym / exercise thing going on and see if I can work my way out of this. I know fruit and veggies, unprocessed foods, exercise, is the ticket to success, I just haven't been able to stick with it these last few years and was hoping TRT could help push me in the right direction, but I think it's worth another shot at this point to do it "right".

 

 

 

 

here you go, you have your culprit. 

you mentioned sitting behind PC a lot. you know, sitting is the new smoking as they say and I take it seriously. there are standing desks available if you want to do it.

 

additional comments: Cymbalta in BP2? Is that for real? If anything, you need Li. Not necessarily the full BP dose, even small doses could be beneficial. In my case (and I'm not dxed with BP)  Li in PM fixed my abnormal diurnal rhythm and lessened night eating that resulted in weight loss. Li also increases gray mater in BP and it's really a no-brainer IMHO. 

[xatu01]

At first i suggest checking your cortisol levels.

If its high it is most likely that you have some kind of inflamation or problems with stress/anxiety which would be good to adress.

[Anomie]

I agree with Stinkorninjor that 

 

• being overweight or obese

is probably #1 cause of 2ndary hypogonadism these days.

But it's not easy to lose weight while affected by low T (lack of energy and hence no willpower to do anything). In my case, I took HCG injections (low dose daily) first to jump start my low calorie diet. That gave me about 25 lbs weight loss. Later I followed by 2000 mg metformin and 150 mg Li2CO3 per day and lost additional 16 lbs. I had opportunity to pursue TRT with my doc, but decided not to and went my own way and I'm very happy about the outcome.

 

here you go, you have your culprit. 

 

you mentioned sitting behind PC a lot. you know, sitting is the new smoking as they say and I take it seriously. there are standing desks available if you want to do it.

 

additional comments: Cymbalta in BP2? Is that for real? If anything, you need Li. Not necessarily the full BP dose, even small doses could be beneficial. In my case (and I'm not dxed with BP)  Li in PM fixed my abnormal diurnal rhythm and lessened night eating that resulted in weight loss. Li also increases gray mater in BP and it's really a no-brainer IMHO. 

 

Yup its hardest to pick yourself up when you're on your back. I tried a standing desk before and it really hurt my joints to only stand (it didn't go up and down and I'm 6'5''), if I could get ahold of one that does both I would absolutely jump on it but they're quite expensive and I haven't figured out how to make one easily enough.

 

Over the years I always missed trying lithium for whatever reason, I'll probably try it next time I get a chance. I don't really like taking cymbalta as obviously it doesn't promote stabilization but it does help with reducing depression, most of the time. 

[Anomie]

At first i suggest checking your cortisol levels.

If its high it is most likely that you have some kind of inflamation or problems with stress/anxiety which would be good to adress.

 

I definitely have stress and anxiety problems. Been taking ashwaghanda the last few days and it really mellows me out a lot, feels good. When this latest bout of severe depression started, I was under a lot of stress and I sorted melted down, stress is so destructive. Never thought of trying to have cortisol actually checked though, would be interesting to see.

[Mind_Paralysis]

So tired... late as f*ck... head is splitting open from Guanfacine discontinuation-symptoms...

But check out the post I made about Atypical Depression, as I understand it, atypical depression is connected with Bipolar depression, as many whom get the diagnosis AD apparently have BP.

Both bipolar and atypical depression is more connected to inflammatory response in the brain - and since you have problems with obesity, it makes some sense to check out what works for atypical depression, since that is the type of depression which is connected to weight-gain.

 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=825952

 

Pramlintide and the combination of Bupropion and Naltrexone might be something for you. So, a stack like this:

 

Lamotrigine (since you're BP type 2)

Pramlintide

Omega-3

Bupropion

Naltrexone

 

 

Might just do the trick! Maybe add in some more novel neuro-antiinflammatories as well... some of the newer anti-allergy-pills which work via different mechanisms than anti-histamine action.

 

http://www.longecity...es/#entry797809

 

 

Not sure which drug has the most side-effect of weight-gain btw... Lithium or Lamotrigine? I say, go with whichever causes less.

[jack black]

Not sure which drug has the most side-effect of weight-gain btw... Lithium or Lamotrigine? I say, go with whichever causes less.

 

In theory, Li is prone to weight gain. However, this is probably with full, multigram dose. With low dose, I experienced weight loss. When you search more, it appears Li was approved for weight loss at some point.

The part that I wanted to stress is to figure out the proper timing of dosing. If I take it too early or too late, no effects. Best effects is when I take it 3-4PM.

 

BTW, why Guanfacine discontinuation? I thought you liked that combined with a stimulant?
 

Edited by jack black, 19 September 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[Eryximachus]

I say go for the testosterone.  No, you can recover from testosterone long term.  I've abused all kinds of steroids, and my fertility and test levels are fine. Admittedly, my test level is higher than you (500s, at 40).

 

Your weight is definitely a problem.  Most people don't have the willpower to lose it.  If you're bipolar, that's a worse problem as all bipolar drugs make it tough.  A few options, some more quackery than others

 

1) T3 along with mood stabilizers

2)  Trenbolone along with valium.  Trenbolone will build muscle and burn fat like nothing you have ever seen. Since you're bipolar, you'll need valium to enhance mood stability.

3) if you're fat, you should definitely be taking metformin

4) DNP. But move to Alaska in the winter first.  

 

[Anomie]

So tired... late as f*ck... head is splitting open from Guanfacine discontinuation-symptoms...

But check out the post I made about Atypical Depression, as I understand it, atypical depression is connected with Bipolar depression, as many whom get the diagnosis AD apparently have BP.

Both bipolar and atypical depression is more connected to inflammatory response in the brain - and since you have problems with obesity, it makes some sense to check out what works for atypical depression, since that is the type of depression which is connected to weight-gain.

 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=825952

 

Pramlintide and the combination of Bupropion and Naltrexone might be something for you. So, a stack like this:

 

Lamotrigine (since you're BP type 2)

Pramlintide

Omega-3

Bupropion

Naltrexone

 

 

Might just do the trick! Maybe add in some more novel neuro-antiinflammatories as well... some of the newer anti-allergy-pills which work via different mechanisms than anti-histamine action.

 

http://www.longecity...es/#entry797809

 

 

Not sure which drug has the most side-effect of weight-gain btw... Lithium or Lamotrigine? I say, go with whichever causes less.

 

Took bupropion earlier this year for a couple months and it actually made me slightly worse, made me angry, so I stopped that one of course. I decided on lamotrigine and have been taking it a couple days now. Already take fish oil and D3. I'm going to give the lamo some time to work and see how I feel over the next month. It takes 3 weeks before I get up to full dose of 100mg but so far I already feel slightly better, though it's way too early to tell, many times I've "felt better" and then I go off the deep end and realize nope, not working. If it helps smooth out my mood even halfway I would call that a major success as I have tried so, many, things, and nothing has helped.

 

Once I get to a baseline I'll consider some of the other stuff you recommended there, thx for the list. 

[Anomie]

I say go for the testosterone.  No, you can recover from testosterone long term.  I've abused all kinds of steroids, and my fertility and test levels are fine. Admittedly, my test level is higher than you (500s, at 40).

 

Your weight is definitely a problem.  Most people don't have the willpower to lose it.  If you're bipolar, that's a worse problem as all bipolar drugs make it tough.  A few options, some more quackery than others

 

1) T3 along with mood stabilizers

2)  Trenbolone along with valium.  Trenbolone will build muscle and burn fat like nothing you have ever seen. Since you're bipolar, you'll need valium to enhance mood stability.

3) if you're fat, you should definitely be taking metformin

4) DNP. But move to Alaska in the winter first.  

 

Once I have more income if my T levels are still in the 300's and I've done what I can otherwise to try and boost T levels and its not helping, I'll probably go with replacement. I think about when I was younger, I had a lot more drive and passion, a lot more bold. I really do wonder if it is from drastically different T levels. I used to have a very, very strong sex drive bordering on a problem, now I feel almost nothing which is pretty unusual so I'm pretty curious if replacement would help turn things around, but yeah I can't quite afford it right now.

 

I didn't know people take T3 for depression or weight loss, that's interesting and I'll have to ask my doctor about it. Just had it checked and thyroid is right in the middle of range but if augmentation therapy is helpful I would definitely look into it.

 

I don't mess with anything illegal, they'll probably hang me in Utah :P  Trenbolone looks interesting though.

 

Just had blood sugar checked and don't even have pre-diabetes yet, hopefully I'll trim up before I start moving in that direction. Is metformin useful regardless of blood sugar problems? I'll ask doctor about that too.

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

Not sure which drug has the most side-effect of weight-gain btw... Lithium or Lamotrigine? I say, go with whichever causes less.

 

In theory, Li is prone to weight gain. However, this is probably with full, multigram dose. With low dose, I experienced weight loss. When you search more, it appears Li was approved for weight loss at some point.

The part that I wanted to stress is to figure out the proper timing of dosing. If I take it too early or too late, no effects. Best effects is when I take it 3-4PM.

 

BTW, why Guanfacine discontinuation? I thought you liked that combined with a stimulant?
 

 

 

Yeah, but I ran out, since it wasn't prescribed, so I had to keep discontinue.

 

I've talked to my Doc though and he's open towards trying out the combo, first we're going to try and get a license for Evekeo though - Racemic Amphetamine - more NE than Dextro-AMP. LD-AMP + Guanfacine should be the bees-knees.

 

In the mean-time, we're trying out another combo - Modafinil + Reboxetine! : )

 

But more on that in another thread, this isn't the time and place.

[Rob Roy]

 

I say go for the testosterone.  No, you can recover from testosterone long term.  I've abused all kinds of steroids, and my fertility and test levels are fine. Admittedly, my test level is higher than you (500s, at 40).

 

Your weight is definitely a problem.  Most people don't have the willpower to lose it.  If you're bipolar, that's a worse problem as all bipolar drugs make it tough.  A few options, some more quackery than others

 

1) T3 along with mood stabilizers

2)  Trenbolone along with valium.  Trenbolone will build muscle and burn fat like nothing you have ever seen. Since you're bipolar, you'll need valium to enhance mood stability.

3) if you're fat, you should definitely be taking metformin

4) DNP. But move to Alaska in the winter first.  

 

Once I have more income if my T levels are still in the 300's and I've done what I can otherwise to try and boost T levels and its not helping, I'll probably go with replacement. I think about when I was younger, I had a lot more drive and passion, a lot more bold. I really do wonder if it is from drastically different T levels. I used to have a very, very strong sex drive bordering on a problem, now I feel almost nothing which is pretty unusual so I'm pretty curious if replacement would help turn things around, but yeah I can't quite afford it right now.

 

I didn't know people take T3 for depression or weight loss, that's interesting and I'll have to ask my doctor about it. Just had it checked and thyroid is right in the middle of range but if augmentation therapy is helpful I would definitely look into it.

 

I don't mess with anything illegal, they'll probably hang me in Utah :P  Trenbolone looks interesting though.

 

Just had blood sugar checked and don't even have pre-diabetes yet, hopefully I'll trim up before I start moving in that direction. Is metformin useful regardless of blood sugar problems? I'll ask doctor about that too.

 

 

Bipolar drugs can often cause dysregulation of thyroid hormones.  You don't take it for weight loss, but it can help.  The same is true for metformin, especially if you are taking antipsychotics.   

 

Trenbolone and DNP were a joke. Sort of.

 

I would look into getting Clomid.  It works very well. It causes some side effects in people, but if you're on a mood stabilizer you'll be fine.  It is very cheap.  If you can't find a doctor to write you a script, just order from Europe or India.  You don't need much.  

 

25mg per day of Clomid should increase your TT levels into the 600s, possibly higher.  

[jack black]

 

 

 

25mg per day of Clomid should increase your TT levels into the 600s, possibly higher.  

 

 

let's be more realistic here. 25mg clomid moved me from 275 to 390. incidentally, i'm switching back to HCG injections tomorrow.

Edited by jack black, 24 September 2017 - 05:29 AM.

[Anomie]

Bipolar drugs can often cause dysregulation of thyroid hormones.  You don't take it for weight loss, but it can help.  The same is true for metformin, especially if you are taking antipsychotics.   

 

 

Trenbolone and DNP were a joke. Sort of.

 

I would look into getting Clomid.  It works very well. It causes some side effects in people, but if you're on a mood stabilizer you'll be fine.  It is very cheap.  If you can't find a doctor to write you a script, just order from Europe or India.  You don't need much.  

 

25mg per day of Clomid should increase your TT levels into the 600s, possibly higher.  

 

 

On the T forum I was at they seemed to think clomid probably wouldn't do anything because my LH is already pegged at 9.6 out of a normal range of 1.7-8.6. If it would still help a little bit it could be worth it because I just checked prices and a 3 month cycle is about $50 which is nothing. I might try it and then get tested at the end of the 3 months to see where everything is at.

[Rob Roy]

 

 

 

 

25mg per day of Clomid should increase your TT levels into the 600s, possibly higher.  

 

 

let's be more realistic here. 25mg clomid moved me from 275 to 390. incidentally, i'm switching back to HCG injections tomorrow.

 

 

Honestly, if that's true, you are most likely primary.  

 

HCG is stupid for anything other than testing to see you are primary, or anecdotally, restarting after a long period of suppression.  

 

Bipolar drugs can often cause dysregulation of thyroid hormones.  You don't take it for weight loss, but it can help.  The same is true for metformin, especially if you are taking antipsychotics.   

 

 

Trenbolone and DNP were a joke. Sort of.

 

I would look into getting Clomid.  It works very well. It causes some side effects in people, but if you're on a mood stabilizer you'll be fine.  It is very cheap.  If you can't find a doctor to write you a script, just order from Europe or India.  You don't need much.  

 

25mg per day of Clomid should increase your TT levels into the 600s, possibly higher.  

 

 

On the T forum I was at they seemed to think clomid probably wouldn't do anything because my LH is already pegged at 9.6 out of a normal range of 1.7-8.6. If it would still help a little bit it could be worth it because I just checked prices and a 3 month cycle is about $50 which is nothing. I might try it and then get tested at the end of the 3 months to see where everything is at.

 

 

You are definitely primary.  It's time to just accept it and get on TRT.  

[jack black]

 

HCG is stupid

 

Right, what an intelligent argument!
 

[Rob Roy]

 

 

HCG is stupid

 

Right, what an intelligent argument!
 

 

 

That is not an argument. That is a declaration.  HCG is so stupid, I didn't feel an argument was even necessary. 

 

It is clear you have primary hypogonadism. The only medical use of HCG in males is to determine if you are primary or secondary.  Clomid, after a good period of time, yields the same result.  While I was suppose anything is possible, it is extremely unlikely that someone who responds poorly to clomid will magically respond to HCG.  

 

Finally, there are a whole host of issues with HCG that just make it not worth the hassle.  I won't even bother getting into it. 

 

Bottom line, if you're primary, life is never going to be great.  But, you've just got to deal with it. TRT sucks in a lot of ways, but at least you can stay active and have a life.  

 

No need to complicate it, and the more you tinker with ancillaries, the worse it is going to get.  I've read these boards for well over a decade. It never ends well.  

[Anomie]

 

Bipolar drugs can often cause dysregulation of thyroid hormones.  You don't take it for weight loss, but it can help.  The same is true for metformin, especially if you are taking antipsychotics.   

 

 

Trenbolone and DNP were a joke. Sort of.

 

I would look into getting Clomid.  It works very well. It causes some side effects in people, but if you're on a mood stabilizer you'll be fine.  It is very cheap.  If you can't find a doctor to write you a script, just order from Europe or India.  You don't need much.  

 

25mg per day of Clomid should increase your TT levels into the 600s, possibly higher.  

 

 

On the T forum I was at they seemed to think clomid probably wouldn't do anything because my LH is already pegged at 9.6 out of a normal range of 1.7-8.6. If it would still help a little bit it could be worth it because I just checked prices and a 3 month cycle is about $50 which is nothing. I might try it and then get tested at the end of the 3 months to see where everything is at.

 

 

 

You are definitely primary.  It's time to just accept it and get on TRT.  

 

 

I just realized I had primary and secondary backwards, doh. Yeah my balls are definitely not working like they used to and I'm probably going to have to get on TRT sooner or later anyway. Guess I'll focus on making more money.

[Rob Roy]

I typically think it's a bad idea for most guys - it always feels great for 6 months but not so great after that.  But in your case, you have to bite the bullet. Life will not be great, but it will be better. 

[Junk Master]

Here's a whole study on testosterone levels in suicide attempters with bipolar disorder...

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3810946/

 

Might make you rethink the idea of TRT.

 

Needless to say, a compound like Trenbolone, notorious for mood disturbances, is probably a bad idea...lol...