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Need supplement advice for Cyclothymic Disorder / Cyclothymia / Bipolar

bipolar cyclothymic disorder cyclothymia mood swings lithium supplements mania depression

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#1 offtoukraine

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 10:19 PM


Hi longecity, new here.

 

I have had symptoms of mood swings, described most accurately by the description of Cyclothymia, since early adulthood. The cause of this likely has a genetic component because my father seems to share the same basic symptoms as far as I can tell. It's almost uncanny to see such a mirror reflection of my symptoms in him albeit his symptoms seem to not veer as far into mania or depression as mine do.

 

In any case, I have experienced mood alterations consisting of mild 'depressive' symptoms and milder 'manic' symptoms with the depressive symptoms usually persisting anywhere from 1-2 weeks and the manic symptoms persisting only an average of 3 days to a week at best. Although, with the intervention of the uridine stack I have experienced a week-long up twice!

 

Lows:

During the depressive periods I have a pervasive uncertainty about everything I do and there is a sense of foreboding and melancholia in the air. My self-esteem is low and often I will avoid people to avoid perceived judgement. Motivation and energy deficit make simple tasks such as getting up and walking down the stairs to get a glass of water discouraging. I am extremely favorable to short dopamine spikes, getting small frequent bursts of motivation towards binging poppy music, wacky internet videos and sugary snacks, which give me a brief sense of euphoria. I also experience a deterioration in motor function because I am often clumsy, sometimes even losing my balance standing and underestimating my body's own inertia.

 

Focus and attention take a big hit too. I can't focus on a single task without engaging a million distracting toughs in the process. Irritability is clearly present here with even the anticipation of a possible distraction sets off a distraction internal rage. I am a little embarrassed of how this irritability makes me act sometimes; arguing with inanimate object and blaming others for essentially existing. The irritability flares up from the slightest inconvenience and persistent for far longer than it should.

 

My biggest pet peeve however is the handicap it gives to my working memory. Long-term planning is effectively non-existent and unappreciated. Listening comprehension is impaired and delayed. Speech and word retrieval is impaired and delayed. Sentences with double negatives make me feel like a bad AI calculating a paradox. Combined with the effect it has on my attention it definitely feels like 'brain fog'. Other symptoms like obsessive thought patterns and hyper-sexuality are also present and needless to say my sleep quality isn't as good. Anxiety sometimes too.

 

Highs:

Prior to my early 20s I did not experience any semblance of a high mood. In fact my symptoms back then where more like MDD, a dark age in my life where I was lucky to bathe more than once a week. Intervening with a ketogenic diet seems to be when triggered the symptoms to go from being typical of MDD to the more "swingy" state that they are now with actual highs and milder lows. That, and a little help from Rhodiola in managing the crippling anxiety I developed prior which I am glad to say I have mostly dealt with.

 

During the high mood I simply feel the inverse of the symptoms described above. Not exactly opposite. If depressive is a -6, then the up would be a 3 or a 4. But I am much more functional and rarely ever feel anything close to manic or euphoric. I especially love my appreciation for long-term planning and execution during this phase even if it is nothing fancy to a normal person.

 

But what I really want to talk about is some more recent interventions that have helped me and ask for your advice on what to do going forward to improve my functioning. I have had very good results with the Uridine stack in both lengthening and strengthening the up period and weakening the down period. I got the biggest hit immediately after starting the stack which eventually leveled at a slightly higher baseline. Not bad. Introducing Choline to the stack seems to have given me mixed to no result, though I have only trailed CDP-c. And like I said Rhodiola Rosea has been instrumental at managing the anxiety symptoms. I have tried a number of common nootropics as well but in all honesty these have been misguided attempts at addressing my cognitive deficits directly without treating the underlying problem. There is a place for them especially with things like NGF which is low in bipolar patients but not for now I think?

 

For the record I take:

200mg Uridine Monophosfate, sublingual, twice: evening and before bed

Over 700mg total DHA from Fish Oil

400UI Vitamin E

Good Multi-Vitamin

2 Zinc, Magnesium, Calcium Tablets, split

 

Started Trailing CILTEP 3 days ago but not noticeable effects yet. This is mainly for my working memory.

 

I have a few substances arriving next week which I am eager to try.

70% DHA fish oil to replace my current local brand which favours  EPA.
Bacopa
EGCG

Cacoa Extract

Choline L-Bitartrate

 

and also

Aniracetam
Noopept

Phenibut

 

I'll let you guys know of any positive results.


Edited by offtoukraine, 17 September 2017 - 10:35 PM.


#2 offtoukraine

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 08:05 AM

PS. The reason I opted for DHA instead of EPA is because I can't for the life of me find one that to my southern European country.


Edited by offtoukraine, 18 September 2017 - 08:12 AM.


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#3 offtoukraine

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:04 AM

An update:

 

Right, so for the last few weeks I have effectively removed all major sources of Choline from my diet or supplements. I was testing what effect Choline has on me since like I said supplementary Choline of 200-300mg gave me "mixed results".

 

A couple of days ago I introduced some boiled eggs back into my diet which coincided with the slow start of what seemed to be another depressive swing. Could be coincidence. Yesterday I turned it up a notch and downed 200g of rabbit liver and 2 eggs throughout the day: over 1000mg of choline from 2 ingredients alone. I was feeling particularly agitated and irritable in the afternoon, my thoughts were racing uncontrollably, songs were playing in my head on loop. At the Gym I noticed some irregular heartbeats, mild vertigo and the feeling that my breathing wasn't doing much. The trainer walked up to me twice to ask me if I was doing ok. I was also more self-conscious than usual.

 

While eating soup and looking directly into the reflection in the bowl I saw parallel lines forming across the diameter of the bowl. I looked up to see if it was a reflection but there was nothing but a clear sky. I looked back down and the lines slowly faded out.

 

At night I took a half-hour walk around the neighborhood and saw things in the corner of my eye 4-5 times, one giving me a short panic because I became afraid a rabid dog was about to jump me. The feeling of being watched (by the people in the houses) was persistent and I was also startled and sensitive to bright lights and loud noises from passing cars.

 

Sleeping was more difficult than normal as it was impossible to stop thinking about something. The sleep itself was not restful, filled with odd fever dreams waking me up constantly.

 

This morning I had some odd bowel movements, loose stools and appalling flatulence but also experienced a symptom I haven't had in a while. Urinary retention. A difficulty squeezing out everything from the bladder. This is what prompted me to hit "choline" and "urinary retention" into google and found the wikipedia page on 'Anticholinergic' which states "Anticholinergics inhibit parasympathetic nerve impulses by selectively blocking the binding of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine to its receptor in nerve cells. The nerve fibers of the parasympathetic system are responsible for the involuntary movement of smooth muscles present in the gastrointestinal tract, urinary tract, lungs, and many other parts of the body".

 

It also lists a number of associated symptoms, many of which I experience frequently. I have color-coded the list based on my experience and the <<< indicates reemerging of symptom since reintroducing dietary Choline.

 

  • Poor coordination <<<
  • Dementia
  • Decreased mucus production in the nose and throat; consequent dry, sore throat <<<
  • Dry-mouth with possible acceleration of dental caries
  • Stopping of sweating; consequent decreased epidermal thermal dissipation leading to warm, blotchy, or red skin
  • Increased body temperature
  • Pupil dilation (no clue); consequent sensitivity to bright light (photophobia) <<<
  • Loss of accommodation (loss of focusing ability, blurred vision – cycloplegia) <<<
  • Double-vision
  • Increased heart rate <<<
  • Tendency to be easily startled <<<
  • Urinary retention <<<
  • Diminished bowel movement, sometimes ileus (decreases motility via the vagus nerve) [<<<mild]
  • Increased intraocular pressure; dangerous for people with narrow-angle glaucoma. (left eye has long-time astigmatism, not sure if related)

Possible effects in the central nervous system resemble those associated with delirium, and may include:

  • Confusion <<<
  • Disorientation <<<
  • Agitation <<<
  • Euphoria or (dysphoria <<<)
  • Respiratory depression <<<
  • Memory problems <<<
  • Inability to concentrate <<<
  • Wandering thoughts; inability to sustain a train of thought <<<
  • Incoherent speech <<<
  • Irritability <<<
  • Mental confusion (brain fog) <<<
  • Wakeful myoclonic jerking
  • Unusual sensitivity to sudden sounds <<<
  • Illogical thinking <<<
  • Photophobia <<<
  • Visual disturbances <<<
    • Periodic flashes of light <<<
    • Periodic changes in visual field <<<
    • Visual snow
    • Restricted or "tunnel vision"
  • Visual, auditory, or other sensory hallucinations
    • Warping or waving of surfaces and edges <<<
    • Textured surfaces <<<
    • "Dancing" lines; "spiders", insects; form constants
    • Lifelike objects indistinguishable from reality
    • Phantom smoking
    • Hallucinated presence of people not actually there
  • Rarely: seizures, coma, and death
  • Orthostatic hypotension (severe drop in systolic blood pressure when standing up suddenly) and significantly increased risk of falls in the elderly population.

In particular, Visual Snow, Dancing Lines and Orthostatic hypotension have always troubled me. They have not resurfaced yet but I am half-expecting them to.

 

 

This is strange considering Choline is by definition the opposite of Anticholinergic, yet it seems that high intake, or even continuous moderate intake, of dietary and supplementary choline gives me clear Anticholinergic symptoms. All but the rarest in fact. Could my body be reacting paradoxically to Choline by downregulating acetylcholine or its receptors? Does that even make sense?

 

I am going to phase out all major sources of choline from my diet once more for a week and see if my symptoms improve. If so, I will consider ALCAR as an alternative to Choline supplementation.


Edited by offtoukraine, 19 September 2017 - 10:13 AM.


#4 Stinkorninjor

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 02:30 PM

Hypercholinergic symptoms are actually frighteningly similar to anticholinergic symptoms - check out some of the threads on here dealing with what I would call "Acetacholine Syndrome" - it's when people have overused cholinergic supplementation, along with Omega-3 supplementation, and get stuck in a state which appears to be the equivalent of Serotonin Syndrome, but for choline and acetacholine.

 

A choline-elimination-diet then helped these people, and the symptoms went away. So don't assume that it's DOWN-regulation of choline giving you the problems... some people have naturally high choline-production and sensitive acetacholine-receptors, and when these people start using choline-supplements... watch out.

 

Now, with that said, you should look into the ONLY logical supplement for Cyclothymia: Lithium Orotate.

 

LiO has effects on mood even from the very low dosages given in supplement form and could be enough for someone with this type of "Bipolar Type 3" kind of symptoms.

 

 

BTW... I don't know if you've seen the thread, but there's another semi-affective disease, called BORDERLINE, wherein we have an entire thread about how they have hyperproduction of acetacholine, which then causes emotional instability - most likely related to the fact that acetacholine controls most of the activity out of the AMYGDALA - reason I mention it, is because maybe you could have that? Well, if choline makes you more emotional that is - my SCT blocked me from reading properly, so I didn't get if choline-supplements made you more emotionally unstable.

 

If they do, there might be something to that...



#5 jack black

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 06:38 PM

Hypercholinergic symptoms are actually frighteningly similar to anticholinergic symptoms - check out some of the threads on here dealing with what I would call "Acetacholine Syndrome" - it's when people have overused cholinergic supplementation, along with Omega-3 supplementation, and get stuck in a state which appears to be the equivalent of Serotonin Syndrome, but for choline and acetacholine.

 

A choline-elimination-diet then helped these people, and the symptoms went away. So don't assume that it's DOWN-regulation of choline giving you the problems... some people have naturally high choline-production and sensitive acetacholine-receptors, and when these people start using choline-supplements... watch out.

 

Now, with that said, you should look into the ONLY logical supplement for Cyclothymia: Lithium Orotate.

 

LiO has effects on mood even from the very low dosages given in supplement form and could be enough for someone with this type of "Bipolar Type 3" kind of symptoms.

 

 

BTW... I don't know if you've seen the thread, but there's another semi-affective disease, called BORDERLINE, wherein we have an entire thread about how they have hyperproduction of acetacholine, which then causes emotional instability - most likely related to the fact that acetacholine controls most of the activity out of the AMYGDALA - reason I mention it, is because maybe you could have that? Well, if choline makes you more emotional that is - my SCT blocked me from reading properly, so I didn't get if choline-supplements made you more emotionally unstable.

 

If they do, there might be something to that...

 

+1.

 

Actually there is some literature that indicates that sensitivity to choline is present in borderline personality disorder.

My own personal experience is similar to the OP (but not identical). I actually considered that I had a mild form of cyclothymia or borderline or bipolar before more recently deciding on Asperger's syndrome. I reality, I may have an overlap syndrome that is not currently classifiable yet. For the record, I had beneficial response to both Lamictal and Lithium trials (not at the same time). I've been on low dose Li for almost a year now with positive effects.

 



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#6 offtoukraine

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 09:04 PM

Thank you for your replies. I wasn't aware of the hypocholinergic effect at all. After restricting dietary choline for about I week I noticed the symptoms mentioned the previous post cleared up but I also noticed a change in my mood. The peaks were less pronounced but I was more irritable and anxious than usual. Starting from yesterday I took 300mg of Choline Bitartrate and one whole egg with dinner. During the morning piss i had mild urinary retention again but my mood was a little more agreeable and I got more done than I usually do. Maybe I'm reading to deeply into this but my mood doesn't usually fluctuate this rapidly so I figure the choline has something to do with it. In other words, you're right, moderation is key lol.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: bipolar, cyclothymic disorder, cyclothymia, mood swings, lithium, supplements, mania, depression

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