14 replies to this topic

[offtoukraine]

Spoiler

My gandfather was known for being extremely reserved and very moody. After getting married at ~30 he quickly cut all ties with both friends and non-immediate relatives and never strayed from his house and the fields he worked on. He wasn't an asshole by any account, infact, as a young child while I never spoke to him at length the few times I gathered the courage to say 'hi' to him he reacted with a startled but friendly stuttered response an awkward but genuine smile. He was extremely rigid. The last 50 years of his life were predictable to the second, literally, If lunch was not served by 10:30am (not 10:30:30am!) he'd explode in verbal obcenities. And by his decree turning the clock back by an hour was never to happen as this was too much of a deviation from the norm. He got a mild heart-attack while in the field later in his life, passed out for 3 hours, woke up, went home, and accused my grandmother of cooking bad food .

 

My father is similar but not the same. In his time it stopped being profitable to just work the fields so he had to learn a trade and start working. He is thus not at all reserved but still very moody and extremely rigid. But again, not in the same way. His mood is less predictable and more akin to some form of cyclothemia (hyperbolic). From week to week and day to day his internal measure of how stressed, anxious or excited he should be in responsed to anything changes dramatically. On days he takes critism with his head held down and on others he pre-emptively lashes back at perceived critism. He is very antiquated; the rigidity of his behaviour means that to this day he is unwilling to adapt to new business practices that would not only improve his profits but would take some stress off him, this could be something as simple as going from hand-written invoices to automated printed ones. Any attempts to entice him to change this behaviour is a major obstacle and without constant monitoring he will revert back to old habits. His mind is visibly oversaturated with 'noise' as he cannot concentrate long enough to read an email and becomes easily confused and frustrated upon doing so. He cannot think properly without speaking his thoughts. So how does he get any work done? I learned that if he needs to do something he will do it as long as the pressure of getting paid or a deadline are there. It will be very inefficient, filled with bizzare cursewords but he will do it. Good thing he is self-employed. His marriage lasted 15 years.

 

Spoilered backstory for tl;dr'ers.

 

I've inherited my grandfather's introversion. I do not have any friends, nor do I feel any incentive to make any. Even on MMOs I have zero "friends". I am very bothered by the presence of other people and see their proximity as an invasion of privacy. Often I will assume ill-intent or stupidity in people inconveniencing me with their presence. I am more open to new experiences, especially when it involves efficiency but actually making the effort to experience and implement them is another story. I am however less motivated to work. I have no concept or appreciation for delayed gradification, I cannot save money and in retrospect any changes I've made to my behaviour or routine were more like a long stream of short addictions. Good and bad. I think only in internal monologues, sometimes acted out physically. Although I see them as negative traits I am prone to envy (not jelousy). anger, frustration and anxiety, which formed into an anxiety disorder. My mind is very noisy and I can't hold a thought for too long and cannot concentrate on one thing at a time which delays progress further. Every action I take happens in the context of what people will think of my action, this forms part of my internal monologue, which is actually more of a dialogue. In daily life this reflects itself as either very high or very low self-esteem, both introverted.

 

My grandfather spent the last years of his life locked inside his neurosis as an angry shell of a man, unable to express himself to and experience the world. My father is at a point where he's slowly becoming just that and if that trend continues I am to become as rigid and neurotic as them later in my life. Frankly it scares me. After misdiagnosing my behavious as symptoms of something and trying many supplements and nootropics I've decided to take a different approach. I understand that chemical supplements cannot have any real effect on behaviour that's genetic and environmental, especially in my late 20s. But i'm willing to try anything to break me out of this shell so any suggestion is appreciated. Citations are always good ofcourse but at this point i'll take anecdotes.

 

So far i've only managed to impliment some lifestyle changes. I hit the gym 5 times a week; 20m of intense cardio and 1.5hrs or resistance training and muscle building. I am trying to follow a paleo-like diet with alot of asian and indian influences. Many fermented foods, no diary, no sugar. Didn't help but I feel better.

 

Supplements I'm taking: 1g pure DHA, Vitamin C, calcium, magnesium, zinc, immunity probiotic, spirulina, 5-10g fibre (really 5 types of seed husks), egcg, 1g cocamine. This is mainly to hopefully address my very mild anemia and immune system anomalies (chronic blocked nose, leg folliculitis and IBS for 10+years). Will be trailing reishi soon.

 

Treatments I'm considering/researching: Mindfulness meditation/philosophy, CBT, an anti-depressant such as paxil, neural feedback (saw some thread about it here but I'm not at all familiar with it).

 

Any suggestions I will greatly appreciate.

[offtoukraine]

Slightly updated due to edit limit.

 

Spoiler

My gandfather was known for being extremely reserved and very moody. After getting married at ~30 he quickly cut all ties with both friends and non-immediate relatives and never strayed from his house and the fields he worked on. He wasn't an asshole by any account, infact, as a young child while I never spoke to him at length the few times I gathered the courage to say 'hi' to him he reacted with a startled but friendly stuttered response an awkward but genuine smile. He was extremely rigid. The last 50 years of his life were predictable to the second, literally, If lunch was not served by 10:30am (not 10:30:30am!) he'd explode in verbal obcenities. And by his decree turning the clock back by an hour was never to happen as this was too much of a deviation from the norm. He got a mild heart-attack while in the field later in his life, passed out for 3 hours, woke up, went home, and accused my grandmother of cooking bad food .

 

My father is similar but not the same. In his time it stopped being profitable to just work the fields so he had to learn a trade and start working. He is thus not at all reserved but still very moody and extremely rigid. But again, not in the same way. His mood is less predictable and more akin to some form of cyclothemia (hyperbolic). From week to week and day to day his internal measure of how stressed, anxious or excited he should be in responsed to anything changes dramatically. On days he takes critism with his head held down and on others he pre-emptively lashes back at perceived critism. He is very antiquated; the rigidity of his behaviour means that to this day he is unwilling to adapt to new business practices that would not only improve his profits but would take some stress off him, this could be something as simple as going from hand-written invoices to automated printed ones. Any attempts to entice him to change this behaviour is a major obstacle and without constant monitoring he will revert back to old habits. His mind is visibly oversaturated with 'noise' as he cannot concentrate long enough to read an email and becomes easily confused and frustrated upon doing so. He cannot think properly without speaking his thoughts. So how does he get any work done? I learned that if he needs to do something he will do it as long as the pressure of getting paid or a deadline are there. It will be very inefficient, filled with bizzare cursewords but he will do it. Good thing he is self-employed. His marriage lasted 15 years.

 

 

Spoilered backstory for tl;dr'ers.

 

I've inherited my grandfather's introversion. I do not have any friends, nor do I feel any incentive to make any. Social situations scare me, even online ones like MMOs where I have zero "friends". I am very bothered by the presence of other people and see their proximity as an invasion of privacy. Often I will assume, or more accurately fantasize, persistent ill-intent or stupidity in people inconveniencing me with their presence. I am more open to new experiences, especially when it involves efficiency but actually making the effort to experience and implement them is another story. I'd like to do many new things but there's some kind of block discouraging me from taking the actions neccesary to achieve them; 'I can't go on that hike i've been itching to go on because it means I have to wake up very early and that means I have to sleep early'. It's very defeatist. I have no concept or appreciation for delayed gradification, I cannot save money and in retrospect any positive changes I've made to my behaviour or routine were more like a long stream of short addictions. I think only in internal monologues, sometimes acted out physically. Although I see them as negative traits I am prone to envy (not jelousy). anger, frustration and anxiety, which formed into an anxiety disorder. My mind is very noisy and I can't hold a thought for too long and cannot concentrate on one thing at a time which delays progress further. Every action I take happens in the context of what people will think of my action, this forms part of my internal monologue, which is actually more of a dialogue. In daily life this reflects itself as either very high or very low self-esteem, both introverted.

 

My grandfather spent the last years of his life locked inside his neurosis as an angry shell of a man, unable to express himself to and experience the world. My father is at a point where he's slowly becoming just that and if that trend continues I am to become as rigid and neurotic as them later in my life. Frankly it scares me. After misdiagnosing my behavious as symptoms of something and trying many supplements and nootropics I've decided to take a different approach. I understand that chemical supplements cannot have any real effect on behaviour that's genetic and environmental, especially in my late 20s. But i'm willing to try anything to break me out of this shell so any suggestion is appreciated. Citations are always good ofcourse but at this point i'll take anecdotes.

 

So far i've only managed to impliment some lifestyle changes. I hit the gym 5 times a week; 20m of intense cardio and 1.5hrs or resistance training and muscle building. I am trying to follow a paleo-like diet with alot of asian and indian influences. Many fermented foods, no diary, no gluten, no additives and no sugar. I feel better in general after this.

 

Supplements I'm taking: 1g pure DHA, Vitamin C, calcium, magnesium, zinc, immunity probiotic, spirulina, 5-10g fibre (really 5 types of seed husks), egcg, 1g cocamine. This is mainly for gym performance and to hopefully address my very mild anemia and immune system anomalies (chronic blocked nose, leg folliculitis and IBS for 10+years). Will be trailing reishi soon.

 

Treatments I'm considering/researching: Mindfulness meditation/philosophy, CBT, an anti-depressant such as paxil, neural feedback (saw some thread about it here but I'm not at all familiar with it).

 

Any suggestions I will greatly appreciate.

[hydrus]

This is mainly to hopefully address my very mild anemia and immune system anomalies (chronic blocked nose, leg folliculitis and IBS for 10+years).

 

 

These can be a sign of digestive problems/food allergies which are speculated to affect behaviour/mood as well.

 

EPA instead of  DHA is said to affect mental functioning in a more powerful way.

 

Amino acids (Tryptophan, DLPA, GABA, Tyrosine) can help with emotions as well.

 

B6 and Zinc is said to help with social anxiety in some cases.

 

Some people do well with SSRIs and reported life changing improvements from these. Some do poorly and report long-term worsening and dependency but I think they are worth considering if your problems are bad enough. Old school antidepressants work better sometimes.

 

Serotonin is believed to be linked to social functioning and self-esteem. Serotonin boosting supplements are 5-htp, Tryptophan, B6(possibly?)

 

You are doing the right things and your situation is far from hopeless evebn when you can not change your genes.

Edited by hydrus, 20 October 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[nickthird]

 

 

Every action I take happens in the context of what people will think of my action

I am not sure exactly how severe this is and if you mean how you will be judged. If you are constantly thinking about judgement by others, then could be something like social anxiety.

 

Some of the things you describe like not being able to hold a thought for a while, and always having the short term gratification in mind sound somewhat like some ADHD symptoms.

 

Not needing people theoretically should not lead to your other problems, if in fact you choose not to have any friends and don't feel lonely or never felt that way. Although most people tend to need peer support for their mental health.

 

 

 

I never spoke to him at length the few times I gathered the courage to say 'hi' to him he reacted with a startled but friendly stuttered response an awkward but genuine smile.

Sounds like your grandfather may have had severe social anxiety. But it is very hard to judge just based on one sentence...

 

 

 

In daily life this reflects itself as either very high or very low self-esteem, both introverted.

Most likely your conscious self esteem is very high to compensate, but your subconscious self esteem is always very low, because the brain fucks with you for the "benefit" of society.

 

Out of all of your writing I am not sure what your problems are even are that you are trying to solve. You feel lonely? I mean no supplement is going to magically make other people interesting to you. If you have indeed social anxiety and you treat it, then you may be able to talk with new people but it would take you a long to time to find someone to connect with, as you haven't found any so far. You are afraid to turn out like your parents? Some people like being angry and they live by it, some people love arguments. Where is the evidence your parents and grandparents did/do not enjoy life? I don't understand what your anxieties and frustrations are about anyway, what is all of this 'neurosis' you keep mentioning?

 

 

[tunt01]

Sounds like an overactive sympathetic nervous system.  High stress response is pro-inflammatory and disposes to alzheimer's later in life.  Often these traits are epigenetic and get passed on from generation to the next.  It may not simply be genetic, but epigenetic.  Lower expression of certain genes like oestrogen receptor a (ERa) can mediate higher HPA/CRH activity.

 

Endurance exercise is important.  Check your homocysteine levels, as high turnover of norepinephrine/epinephrine demands high methyl groups and appropriate b-vitamin intake.  Other stress alleviating activities like a hot sauna few times a week might be a good idea.  Low dose lithium might be a good idea.  In the pharmaceutical realm, guanfacine or an alpha-2 agonist would alleviate neuroticism and stress.  Beta blockers might be a thought also.

 

[offtoukraine]

 

This is mainly to hopefully address my very mild anemia and immune system anomalies (chronic blocked nose, leg folliculitis and IBS for 10+years).

 

 

These can be a sign of digestive problems/food allergies which are speculated to affect behaviour/mood as well.

 

EPA instead of  DHA is said to affect mental functioning in a more powerful way.

 

Amino acids (Tryptophan, DLPA, GABA, Tyrosine) can help with emotions as well.

 

B6 and Zinc is said to help with social anxiety in some cases.

 

Some people do well with SSRIs and reported life changing improvements from these. Some do poorly and report long-term worsening and dependency but I think they are worth considering if your problems are bad enough. Old school antidepressants work better sometimes.

 

Serotonin is believed to be linked to social functioning and self-esteem. Serotonin boosting supplements are 5-htp, Tryptophan, B6(possibly?)

 

You are doing the right things and your situation is far from hopeless evebn when you can not change your genes.

 

 

I've tried a number of dietary restrictions, none of which proved very helpful. I trailed the extreme lectin-avoidance for a week too and experienced a short-lived burst of mental clarity and motivation that eventually tapered off. The same happened when I started the Uridine stack. Maybe it's placebo, maybe certain lifestyle changes shock my body out of it before it relapses back.

 

I do know my body reacts quite badly to dietary choline (not so much with supplements cgp/bitartrate/ect.). Egg yolks make me feel ill before I even finish the meal and very high intake, like the one time I had a late dinner of eggs and liver give me some disturbing symptoms. Other than that I was tested for gluten and lactose intollerance and it all came out negative. Blood and stool markers for inflammation all looked normal.

 

But it can't be normal. I've never been able to breath through my nose effectively, ever. The walls lining my nasal passage are perpetually enlarged. There is a correlation between that and mood as  when I'm feeling springy and motivated and thus more active my sinuses are more open. They also open up a little during intense physical activity and shortly after. The only relief I get is from a combination of two types of nasal sprays, one ingredient is triamcinolone acetonide. I've been to a number of ENT specialists and all I ever got was an invitation to do surgery. I have a very mild deviated septum but clearly it's not the issue here.

 

The folliculitis is a similar story. My legs are covered in red spots with small white bulbs all the time for atleast 10 years. Some growing, some drying up. I was prescribed anti-biotics and antibacterial cream and soap which removed them but they reemerged after treatment.

 

I eat a lot of fish and meat, plus I take protein for muscle building so that's covered. The one territory I have not ventured into yet is the SSRI, but you suggested some serotonin boosters that I want to try first. I keep hearing good things about 5-htp and will try and source that, thanks.

 

 

Edited by offtoukraine, 20 October 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[offtoukraine]

 

 

 

Every action I take happens in the context of what people will think of my action

I am not sure exactly how severe this is and if you mean how you will be judged. If you are constantly thinking about judgement by others, then could be something like social anxiety.

 

Some of the things you describe like not being able to hold a thought for a while, and always having the short term gratification in mind sound somewhat like some ADHD symptoms.

 

Not needing people theoretically should not lead to your other problems, if in fact you choose not to have any friends and don't feel lonely or never felt that way. Although most people tend to need peer support for their mental health.

 

 

 

In daily life this reflects itself as either very high or very low self-esteem, both introverted.

Most likely your conscious self esteem is very high to compensate, but your subconscious self esteem is always very low, because the brain fucks with you for the "benefit" of society.

 

Out of all of your writing I am not sure what your problems are even are that you are trying to solve. You feel lonely? I mean no supplement is going to magically make other people interesting to you. If you have indeed social anxiety and you treat it, then you may be able to talk with new people but it would take you a long to time to find someone to connect with, as you haven't found any so far. You are afraid to turn out like your parents? Some people like being angry and they live by it, some people love arguments. Where is the evidence your parents and grandparents did/do not enjoy life? I don't understand what your anxieties and frustrations are about anyway, what is all of this 'neurosis' you keep mentioning?

 

 

'Neurosis' is, as I understand it, an outdated medical term for a number of psychological and behavioral disorders that may interfere with everyday functioning but are not psychosis. Nowadays it's mainly used as a hyperbolic term for people who show a number of these issues specifically in relation to social disorders, obsessive thinking, perfectionism, mood disorders, internal monologue, irritability and anxiety issues. In my experience with modern psychiatry I am convinced the isolation of very specific symptoms into arbitrary disorder groups is, while useful and descriptive, not ideal considering the aformentioned illnesses tend to all be present in varying degrees in the sufferrer. I have been to a good number of psychiatrists and each time I explain the same symptoms and everytime the diagnosis is different: OCD, ADHD, OCPD, Anxiety disorder, Bipolar, Tourettes (that was an amusing diagnosis) to name a few. With the exception of tourettes all are descriptive of my symptoms but fail to explore any common ground between them.

 

I would not describe my family memberes as depressed but on observing them it's clear that they are 'locked in' and subconsciously wishing to get out and I see parrallelles in their behaviour with my own. I don't feel lonely yet at the same time I find myself wanting of company. I am an extreme introvert and feel as if I have no desire to change that, but at the same time all my thinking is done via an internal monologue relayed to to an imaginary listener; usually the profile of an old friend of relative. I fantasize judgement from others even when I'm alone. I download language comminity apps (currently learning japanese) and plan to make contact but never do. I constantly run planned actions or conversations through my mind, feel gratification on doing so and any desire to actually implement them goes away. This has always been the case, even back when I had social contact. It never got better or worse it's just who I am. It's also not a form of psychosis, I don't believe any of it and I don't actually 'hear' anything. It's just how my thinking process works. I don't mind it per se but it's clearly holding me back from being both happier and more action-oriented.

[iseethelight]

I eat a lot of fish and meat, plus I take protein for muscle building so that's covered. The one territory I have not ventured into yet is the SSRI, but you suggested some serotonin boosters that I want to try first. I keep hearing good things about 5-htp and will try and source that, thanks.

 

 

 

 

 Have you tried a vegan low protein diet?

[nickthird]

 

'Neurosis' is, as I understand it, an outdated medical term for a number of psychological and behavioral disorders that may interfere with everyday functioning but are not psychosis. Nowadays it's mainly used as a hyperbolic term for people who show a number of these issues specifically in relation to social disorders, obsessive thinking, perfectionism, mood disorders, internal monologue, irritability and anxiety issues. In my experience with modern psychiatry I am convinced the isolation of very specific symptoms into arbitrary disorder groups is, while useful and descriptive, not ideal considering the aformentioned illnesses tend to all be present in varying degrees in the sufferrer. I have been to a good number of psychiatrists and each time I explain the same symptoms and everytime the diagnosis is different: OCD, ADHD, OCPD, Anxiety disorder, Bipolar, Tourettes (that was an amusing diagnosis) to name a few. With the exception of tourettes all are descriptive of my symptoms but fail to explore any common ground between them.

 

I would not describe my family memberes as depressed but on observing them it's clear that they are 'locked in' and subconsciously wishing to get out and I see parrallelles in their behaviour with my own. I don't feel lonely yet at the same time I find myself wanting of company. I am an extreme introvert and feel as if I have no desire to change that, but at the same time all my thinking is done via an internal monologue relayed to to an imaginary listener; usually the profile of an old friend of relative. I fantasize judgement from others even when I'm alone. I download language comminity apps (currently learning japanese) and plan to make contact but never do. I constantly run planned actions or conversations through my mind, feel gratification on doing so and any desire to actually implement them goes away. This has always been the case, even back when I had social contact. It never got better or worse it's just who I am. It's also not a form of psychosis, I don't believe any of it and I don't actually 'hear' anything. It's just how my thinking process works. I don't mind it per se but it's clearly holding me back from being both happier and more action-oriented.

 

 

All the problems you mentioned are there to some degree in most of the population. Only when OCD is a problem that interferes with daily life do you get diagnosed with OCD. There is some % of overlap between things like ADHD and OCD but I recall it is rather low.

 

Why do you look for a single cause? even a single diagnosis is likely not to have a single cause (look at cancer for example, it takes like 5+ random mutations). Maybe you have all of those separate diagnosis and should try treating them. If the drugs don't work you lost nothing.

 

Maybe you can look for a job where you will get feedback on your ideas, like writing.

[Boopy!]

then whatever would happen to my favorite artists,   writers,   and especially comedians?    They simply wouldn't exist.    Not that I don't get the gist of your post.....but this is genetic,    only to be tempered with life and our own minds mostly.    I am so sick of seeking a "cure"  for  my mind.   Screw it --   the world will benefit and I at least appreciate you.

[jack black]

Interesting story. are just males affected by this? this could be a newly discovered genetic disease. you should probably write a book about and you can get famous. at the minimum, you should travel to the best academic neurologist or psychiatrist in your country and have that studied for the benefit of humanity.

[hydrus]

 The last 50 years of his life were predictable to the second, literally, If lunch was not served by 10:30am (not 10:30:30am!) he'd explode in verbal obcenities. And by his decree turning the clock back by an hour was never to happen as this was too much of a deviation from the norm. 

 

 

https://www.autismsp...onin-production

 

Strong need to adhere to a certain routine sounds like what happens in Autism or Asperger's.

 

Rigidity and impaired social functioning could point to low serotonin

Edited by hydrus, 30 October 2017 - 10:03 AM.

[Junk Master]

I second the above, especially with the strong genetic link.  This seems like "textbook"  High Functioning Spectrum social anxiety, though as is often said, "Meet one person on the spectrum, and you're met one person on the Spectrum.

 

I have members of my family who have been clinically diagnosed as on the High Functioning Autistic Spectrum, and the "neuroticism" you are describing is much closer to high functioning autistic behavior that to say, the self-reflexive, neuroticism of Woody Allen (just an example).

[jack black]

I second the above, especially with the strong genetic link.  This seems like "textbook"  High Functioning Spectrum social anxiety, though as is often said, "Meet one person on the spectrum, and you're met one person on the Spectrum.

 

I have members of my family who have been clinically diagnosed as on the High Functioning Autistic Spectrum, and the "neuroticism" you are describing is much closer to high functioning autistic behavior that to say, the self-reflexive, neuroticism of Woody Allen (just an example).

 

good point, but didn't the OP say it gets worse with aging? High functioning autism (that i probably have myself, too) gets only better with time as we learn to work around it.

[Junk Master]

Jack,

 

I completely believe the social anxiety experienced by high functioning autistics gets better with age!  If...and only if, as you mention, "...we learn how to work around it."  I believe it can get worse if the HFA (I sort of wish the DVM 5 would have kept Asperger's for ease...) doesn't develop "work arounds" or a social toolkit.  I also believe it can get a lOT worse if the HFA withdraws, or isolates themselves.  I can think of a number of cases in my family, where family members moved to rural areas to mitigate comorbid sensory issues, and ended up noticeably losing social skills they had developed during times (years) when they lived in populated areas.