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Is antipsychotic induced dopamine supersensitivity permanent?

dopamine supersensitivity

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#1 simack

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 08:02 PM


Hey everyone, just asking if anyone knows if antipsychotic induced dopamine supersensitivity is reversible?. I've been on two antipsychotics for the past two years to treat my social anxiety, but I've been suffering badly from paranoia and akathisia lately. I've never had these symptoms previously and the only thing I can put it down to is that I'm now super sensitive to dopamine.. Caffeine, nicotine all make my symptoms much worse.
Slightly increasing my olanzapine helps, but ideally I would like to be off all antipsychotics. Once these meds are stopped will the Super sensitivity eventually reverse or am I doomed to be stuck on these meds permanently?

#2 YoungSchizo

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:56 PM

I've gone off Zyprexa after 8 years, before going off of it I was on the lowest dose (2.5mg) for a very long time so I think you have to taper yourself off of it. After quitting I've gone without it for a year or so without experiencing any problems. I had to get back on it because I had a psychosis (I have schizophrenia). I guess your sensitivity to caffeine and/or nicotine is anxiety related. For a very long time, even on higher dosages of Zyprexa I was also really sensitive to anything that raised dopamine like with you. After I started Clonazepam I never had problems with caffeine and nicotine ever again. So my advice would be to look into GABAergics to deal with your issue. The only supplement I know that raises GABA and treats anxiety effectively is L-Theanine. I guess others will chime in to give you other advises.



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#3 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:19 AM

It may not actually BE dopamine supersensitivity - it may well be your cholinergic system being allowed to go haywire - dopamine and acetacholine works in a sort of see-saw with each other, that's why ANTICHOLINERGIC DRUGS are sometimes used to treat the side-effects from Antipsychotics.

 

The fact that Nicotine, an ACETACHOLINE AGONIST worsens your symptoms, may be an indicator of this.

 

Just some food for thought... Check out some of the data on this, and the relationship between dopamine/acetacholine and the history of treating antipsychotic side-effects.

 

 

With that said, if increasing the dosage of Olanzapine helps, then it's more likely to be dopamine - HOWever... I just saw that Olanzapine as a matter of fact, is a dose-dependent powerful anticholinergic! So, choline isn't out of the realm of possibility either.

 

In order to test if it's choline, I recommend you get a hold of an acetacholine-increasing substance - if it gives you symptoms, then you know that might be a factor as well. I recommend Alpha-GPC (there are multiple brands, pick and chose from the trusted vendors).

 

 

In closing, what two antipsychotics have you been on? Apparently there are statistical differences in how the different Antipsychotics induce akathisia, wherein Quetiapine and Clozapine are cited as the least likely to cause it. Perhaps you can just switch to these two, and have the symptoms improve gradually?

 

 

References:

-----------------

Anticholinergics for neuroleptic-induced acute akathisia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14974032

 

(admittedly, the above review came to the conclusion that the effects are... inconclusive, more testing is necessary, for ACUTE akathisia that is - possibly it would help long-term)

 

 
Acute antipsychotic-induced akathisia revisited
 
(once again, this is acute, not gradual akathisia with prolonged use, so take that into consideration)

 



#4 simack

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 07:47 PM

Thanks mate, I should mention I'm currently in protracted withdrawal from being taken off saphris two years ago cold turkey. I was then put on olanzapine to help with the withdrawal then Quetiapine was added to treat my insomnia. I've been sensitive to must things since.
I've been trying unsuccessfully to slowly taper off them.
I have some CDP choline on hand I can test the choline with, I'll give that I try and post the results

Edited by simack, 13 November 2017 - 07:48 PM.


#5 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:08 PM

Thanks mate, I should mention I'm currently in protracted withdrawal from being taken off saphris two years ago cold turkey. I was then put on olanzapine to help with the withdrawal then Quetiapine was added to treat my insomnia. I've been sensitive to must things since.
I've been trying unsuccessfully to slowly taper off them.
I have some CDP choline on hand I can test the choline with, I'll give that I try and post the results

 

No problems, friend - I know the feeling of not knowing what path to take with medications!

 

Perhaps you should consider requesting a very, very low-dose depot injection of Olanzapine? The injection will last much longer, and then tapers itself out eventually - as long as you go with a low enough dosage, it shouldn't be too different from your current regimen - just more steadily decreasing.

 

Let us know what the results are from your choline-trial!



#6 CWF1986

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:58 AM

 

It may not actually BE dopamine supersensitivity - it may well be your cholinergic system being allowed to go haywire - dopamine and acetacholine works in a sort of see-saw with each other, that's why ANTICHOLINERGIC DRUGS are sometimes used to treat the side-effects from Antipsychotics.

 

The fact that Nicotine, an ACETACHOLINE AGONIST worsens your symptoms, may be an indicator of this.

 

Just some food for thought... Check out some of the data on this, and the relationship between dopamine/acetacholine and the history of treating antipsychotic side-effects.

 

 

With that said, if increasing the dosage of Olanzapine helps, then it's more likely to be dopamine - HOWever... I just saw that Olanzapine as a matter of fact, is a dose-dependent powerful anticholinergic! So, choline isn't out of the realm of possibility either.

 

In order to test if it's choline, I recommend you get a hold of an acetacholine-increasing substance - if it gives you symptoms, then you know that might be a factor as well. I recommend Alpha-GPC (there are multiple brands, pick and chose from the trusted vendors).

 

 

In closing, what two antipsychotics have you been on? Apparently there are statistical differences in how the different Antipsychotics induce akathisia, wherein Quetiapine and Clozapine are cited as the least likely to cause it. Perhaps you can just switch to these two, and have the symptoms improve gradually?

 

 

References:

-----------------

Anticholinergics for neuroleptic-induced acute akathisia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14974032

 

(admittedly, the above review came to the conclusion that the effects are... inconclusive, more testing is necessary, for ACUTE akathisia that is - possibly it would help long-term)

 

 
Acute antipsychotic-induced akathisia revisited
 
(once again, this is acute, not gradual akathisia with prolonged use, so take that into consideration)

 

 

For clarification, which cholinergic system is a seesaw with dopamine and which cholinergic system do antipsychotics affect?  The muscarinic and/or the nicotinic?



#7 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:39 PM

 

 

It may not actually BE dopamine supersensitivity - it may well be your cholinergic system being allowed to go haywire - dopamine and acetacholine works in a sort of see-saw with each other, that's why ANTICHOLINERGIC DRUGS are sometimes used to treat the side-effects from Antipsychotics.

 

The fact that Nicotine, an ACETACHOLINE AGONIST worsens your symptoms, may be an indicator of this.

 

Just some food for thought... Check out some of the data on this, and the relationship between dopamine/acetacholine and the history of treating antipsychotic side-effects.

 

 

With that said, if increasing the dosage of Olanzapine helps, then it's more likely to be dopamine - HOWever... I just saw that Olanzapine as a matter of fact, is a dose-dependent powerful anticholinergic! So, choline isn't out of the realm of possibility either.

 

In order to test if it's choline, I recommend you get a hold of an acetacholine-increasing substance - if it gives you symptoms, then you know that might be a factor as well. I recommend Alpha-GPC (there are multiple brands, pick and chose from the trusted vendors).

 

 

In closing, what two antipsychotics have you been on? Apparently there are statistical differences in how the different Antipsychotics induce akathisia, wherein Quetiapine and Clozapine are cited as the least likely to cause it. Perhaps you can just switch to these two, and have the symptoms improve gradually?

 

 

References:

-----------------

Anticholinergics for neuroleptic-induced acute akathisia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14974032

 

(admittedly, the above review came to the conclusion that the effects are... inconclusive, more testing is necessary, for ACUTE akathisia that is - possibly it would help long-term)

 

 
Acute antipsychotic-induced akathisia revisited
 
(once again, this is acute, not gradual akathisia with prolonged use, so take that into consideration)

 

 

For clarification, which cholinergic system is a seesaw with dopamine and which cholinergic system do antipsychotics affect?  The muscarinic and/or the nicotinic?

 

 

Not all antipsychotics are anticholinergic to an appreciable extent, only some - in general, from what I've seen, it appears to be the classic Muscarinic type antagonism.

 

Good question though! You made me read up closer on this, and actually give it some thought - made me realize how it's one of those things I've heard a million times, but never seen a big explanation of it.

It seems to depend on which part of the brain we're talking about here... as is often the case, it seems to be a bit of a simplification, to say they are in a "perfect see-saw".

 

 

There at least seems to be an interplay between D2 and D5 receptors, and M1 and M2 (muscarinic, obviously) receptors - in the case of Parkinsons disease, it seems to be as if Dopamine is necessary for a feedback-loop which inhibits Acetylcholine release - and when there's not enough Dopamine, because of depletion, ACH reaches such levels that the shaky motor behaviour starts appearing.
 

Acetylcholine-dopamine balance hypothesis in the striatum: an update.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20590830

 

In Parkinson's disease, dopamine depletion blocks autoinhibition of acetylcholine release through muscarinic autoreceptors, leading to excessive acetylcholine release which eventually prunes spines of the indirect-pathway projection neurons of the striatum and thus interrupts information transfer from motor command centers in the cerebral cortex.

 

 

 

It's not just a relationship based on these receptors though, but there seems to be an actual plasma-level relationship, since Choline-supplements causes decrease of dopaminergic signalling.

Effects of CDP-choline on striatal dopamine level and behavior in rats.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7253343

 

(the article is 35 years old though, and considers rats... so, don't give it too much credit)

 

 

A similar effect, except... sort of reversed? Is seen with suppression of dopaminergic signalling from the use of antipsychotics - Tardive Dyskinesia, as its called. I believe there used to be a use of anticholinergics in the past to treat it... but I'm also finding references that it appears as if use of anticholinergics may actually make it worse!

Anticholinergic medication for neuroleptic-induced tardive dyskinesia

http://onlinelibrary...000204/abstract

 

 

The Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors appear to be more diverse in their reactions here, sometimes enhancing the effects of dopamine. But there appears to be an impairing effect as well... It's a bit hard to grasp, I must admit!

 

Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors interact with dopamine in induction of striatal long-term depression.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11923419

 

Dopamine release is modulated by activation of nicotinic receptors in the dorsal striatum, and activation of nicotinic receptors during high-frequency synaptic activation appears to be capable of interacting with dopaminergic actions that lead to striatal LTD.

 

(long-term depression above refers not to the disease depression, but to the process in which LTP - Long-term Potentiation, ak a learning, is stopped at the right moment to allow for encoding of new memories and knowledge - without LTD, LTP is useless)

 

https://en.wikipedia...term_depression

 

 

So... a complicated question, which I apparently don't quite know the answer to... Sometimes, it really does seem to be a see-saw, while sometimes, it's more of a coexistence and high levels of both are necessary.


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#8 simack

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:41 AM

Ok so I took 250mg of CDP choline today to see if it would help. Maybe it's too early to tell but I haven't noticed all that much of a difference,on one hand I still have some paranoia/anxiety, but on the other it has seemed to alleviate some of the cognitive impairment that comes with antipsychotics. I feel a bit more alert than usual, not as sharp as I previously was, but definitely better.
On the downside I have one hell of a headache, not sure if its related or not, going to give it a few more days and will report back then

#9 CWF1986

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 12:39 PM

Cholinergics can cause headaches, but it's hard to say for sure just from one dose.

 

Keep in mind that is some people, myself included, cholinergics can cause depression.  For me, even lecithin will lead to depressed mood something strong like huperzine a will lead to suicidal thoughts (without plan to execute them).



#10 simack

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:12 AM

Ok so I've been trialing CDP choline for a week now and I'm pleased to report it is definitely helping with my symptoms. I'm still experiencing psychotic like issues but they are not as pronounced now. It's helping greatly to lift the mental fog from taking antipsychotics.
My only issue is that I left my bottle of tablets in my car while at work, it's summer here in Aus so it would have easily reached about 40°c. I think I may have damaged them as I don't seem to notice the effects as much these past days.
I've ordered another bottle and I'll try from there

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#11 Galaxyshock

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 11:38 AM

Consider Panax Ginseng, it binds to many of the same receptors that antipsychotics (5-HT2A, dopamine receptors, NMDA, GABA) and is considered to have adaptogenic, tranquilizer, stimulant, antipsychotic, virilizing, immunoboosting qualities. It augments antipsychotics in studies and people report increased calmness and sharper mind from it.


Edited by Galaxyshock, 27 November 2017 - 11:38 AM.





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