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Aging, evolution and negentropy

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#1 Hip

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 06:26 PM


Aging, Evolution and Negentropy

 
I've never seen a good mathematical analysis of the whole process of creating life out of nothing, and explaining how evolution leads to ever more complex and sophisticated lifeforms. This relates to aging, because in a sense, the forward-marching pathways of evolution, which increase complexity and order, are the opposite of aging, as will be explained.
 
The first thing to appreciate about evolution is that on first glance it seemingly contradicts a basic law of physics, the second law of thermodynamics, a law which states that everything always moves from an ordered state into a less ordered state. The second law says that at best you can keep the level of order the same, but usually the level of order of the system decreases, and there is nothing you can do to increase order.
 
By order, we mean that every item within a system is precisely located in its right place; and disorder is the opposite, where the items are randomly scattered and misplaced. That's the thermodynamic definition of order and disorder; it relates to things being in their right place or not.
 
So for example, when you tidy up your home, you place all the items in their correct locations. This increases order. But if you have a wild party in your home, the following day you may find that disorder has increased, since many items in your home may have been randomly scattered all over your house. In thermodynamics, the level of disorder of a system (such as your home) is measured by a numerical value called entropy: the more entropy, the more disorder. So when you have a wild party, you are injecting more entropy into your home. Conversely, when you clean up the mess and reorder you house the following day, you are reducing the entropy and reducing the disorder. Thus in the cleanup, you are injecting negative entropy (negentropy) into you home. 
 
In summary: adding entropy to a system reduces order, and adding negentropy increases order. Negentropy is thus an ordering agency, whereas entropy is a disordering agency. 
 
Lifeforms are highly ordered systems, since every subpart of their body is very precisely located, and the body could not function otherwise. If you think of all the subparts of the body — the body organs, the cells within the organs, the organelles within the cells, proteins within the organelles, amino acids within the proteins, and atoms within the amino acids — these are all very precisely located, and need to be so that they can function and interoperate correctly.
 
Aging also relates to order and disorder, since when the body is working perfectly, everything is in its right place (highly ordered). But as we age, things are displaced from their correct position (increasing disorder). For example, as you age, you accumulate mutations in your DNA, which means that the correct bases in your DNA have been kicked out, and replaced with incorrect ones. But I'll come back to aging in a moment.
 
The question I want to address first is how did such highly ordered systems lifeforms come into being, if they are much more ordered that the scattered elements and molecules of the barren Earth before life came into being? Doesn't creating highly ordered lifeforms out of the scattered elements and molecules in the oceans contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics? It does, but there is a reason why we are able to get around the 2nd law on a planet like the Earth: it's because the Earth itself is constantly receiving a supply of negentropy by virtue of the sunlight that shines on the Earth, and the infrared light that the Earth radiates back into space. It is a little-known fact that on Earth, sunlight not only supplies energy, it also supplies negentropy, the ordering principle. (I won't explain why here, because it will take things of track, but it is to do with the fact that visible light from the Sun has higher negentropy that the infrared light that the Earth radiates back into space).
 
So because Earth is constantly receiving a supply of negentropy, this negentropy facilitates the flouting of the 2nd law, and the creation and evolution of ever more complex (and thus highly ordered) lifeforms.
 
 
 
And when you look at the everyday biological functioning of the body, this again requires negentropy, which is necessary to maintain the ordered state of the body. For example, if your DNA is damaged by something, that damage is an increase in disorder. To fix the DNA damage, you need to employ the agency of negentropy, the ordering principle. So to keep our body functioning in good condition, you need a constant supply of negentropy, which acts like a cleaner that comes in and tidies up your house after that wild party, and puts everything back in its right place. There is no shortage of negentropy, because as mentioned, Earth is literally bathed in abundant amounts of negentropy, delivered via sunlight, and which then enters the ecosystem (via photosynthesis) and is distributed to all lifeforms.
 
So if we have an abundant and constant supply of negentropy on Earth, which is an ordering principle that can turn disorder back into order, how then does aging occur? Surely if we have all this negentropy, any damage (disorder) that occurs in the body should be fixed (reordered) by this agency of negentropy.
 
Well negentropy does indeed fix much of the day to day damage that occurs in the body, via the body's built-in repair mechanisms. So in the example of DNA damage, we have built-in DNA repair mechanisms that run on negentropy, and will fix DNA damage.
 
However, negentropy itself cannot perform magic. It can fix and reorder damage in the body, but only where there are existing repair mechanisms in place in the machinery of the body. But if some damage occurs to the body for which no repair mechanism exists, then no amount of negentropy will fix that.
 
To explain this by analogy: if a wild party causes a mess, and you call in some cleaners to tidy up, these cleaners will do their job, picking up all the empty beer cans in your garden etc; but if they encounter something which is beyond their capabilities — for example, if during the party somebody fell into your garden fence and broke it, fixing the fence is not something the cleaners can do  — so that damage and disorder to you home will remain, until you find someone capable of fixing broken fences. 
 
The body is constantly being damaged and disordered, because being alive is like a wild party; much of that damage is repaired and reordered by the body's built-in repair mechanisms, which themselves run on negentropy. But for some of the damage, there is no existing repair mechanism within the body capable of fixing it. So that damage becomes permanent — it becomes damage and disorder that cannot be reordered by any of the body's repair mechanisms. Over time, the body accumulates more and more of this irreparable damage and disorder, and that really is the nature of aging. 
 
So the body has an abundant supply of negentropy, which the laws of physics stipulate is needed to reorder things; but the body does not have all the necessary mechanisms to address every form of damage that might occur.
 
However, in principle, there is no reason why this accumulating damage cannot be fixed by external machinery developed by science. Because in principle, provided you have a supply of negentropy, you can reorder anything. So in aging, the difficulty arises not from a lack of negentropy, but from a lack of the right machinery to perform the repair. Since the body itself only has a limited range of biological machinery capable of repairing damage, and since aging relates to the damage that occurs which cannot be fixed by the body's repair machinery, addressing aging relates to using science to extend the range of repair machinery available, by developing in the lab new repair machines, which can augment the body's own repair machinery.
 
 
 
One interesting consideration is this: if the body cannot prevent this build-up of of damage and disorder that we know as aging, how is it that in the birth–rebirth cycle of life is able to completely circumvent aging? 
 
Because even though human parents will have already aged a bit by the time they have a baby, that baby itself generally has no aging damage at all; it's in perfect condition. So how is it that the birth–rebirth cycle of life is able to fully regenerate all living creatures, and entirely escape aging, but individual creatures cannot?  
 
I guess this is explained by the fact that a new life starts from one single cell derived from its parents, in a process which purges out the cumulative cellular damage which a multicellular organism collects, and purges out the innumerable harmful microbes that infiltrate multicellular organisms over their lifetimes, recreating a new life afresh by rebuilding the organism from scratch using the genetic instructions found within that single cell.
 
But that purging process also removes the essence of who we are, our experiences, our memories and all we have learnt. The only essence of us that remains is our genes, although even with these, they are randomly mixed with the genes of our reproductive partner.
 
So its seems that in nature, immortality comes at a price: the price is the loss of almost all of our personal identity, a loss which occurs as the organism is purged of all its cumulative damage and is rebuilt from scratch. 

Edited by Hip, 25 November 2017 - 06:33 PM.

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#2 Hip

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 09:31 PM

Someone asked for references:

 

For the second law of thermodynamics, see here: Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia

 

For the fact that Earth constantly receives a supply of negative entropy (negentropy) which drives evolution and is essential for life, see here: Evolution and the Second Law.

 

Also, see the book Steps Towards an Evolutionary Physics, and the paragraph beginning with: "Living systems on the Earth need a continuous flow of negative entropy."

 


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#3 Hip

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:02 PM

Taciturn press-button responses such as "Ill informed" are not very helpful; it would be better to take a few moments to explain why you believe something is ill informed, as that is more conducive to productive discussion. 


Edited by Hip, 26 November 2017 - 02:23 PM.

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#4 Rocket

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:39 PM

Atoms and subatomic particles like protons and neutrons are highly ordered systems that also were created 'out of nothing.' They were created out of a *more greater* nothing than the nothing life was created out. The universe has been organizing itself since the instant of the big bang when it all began. Life is just the universe continuing the process of organizing itself that it started when it began organizing matter into elementary particles that organized into atoms, that organized in stars, that organized into molecules, that organized into life. Life was preprogrammed into the universe at the moment of creation when the physical laws of the universe began.

 

I am not an expert, but you may want to look into quantum statistical mechanics. . . . Newtonian mechanics can only explain just so very little.

 


Edited by Rocket, 26 November 2017 - 02:41 PM.

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#5 Hip

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:52 PM

Atoms and subatomic particles like protons and neutrons are highly ordered systems that also were created 'out of nothing.'

 

Even in the construction of atoms, the 2nd law of thermodynamics is obeyed. For example, the reason you can get energy out of nuclear fusion (joining two atoms together to create a new atom) is that the resultant new atom has higher entropy than the two atoms that you joined together. Thus entropy is increased in that reaction, which obeys the 2nd law. If that were not the case, the nuclear fusion reaction which yields energy would not take place.  


Edited by Hip, 26 November 2017 - 02:53 PM.

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#6 pamojja

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 03:38 PM

 

But that purging process also removes the essence of who we are, our experiences, our memories and all we have learnt. The only essence of us that remains is our genes, although even with these, they are randomly mixed with the genes of our reproductive partner.

 

Don't know about randomly, or if there is more to the genes than meets the eyes. However, it's implications are truly mind-boggling. Read this interesting blog post, where it's author comes to the following conclusions:

 

 

https://waitbutwhy.c...and-future.html

 

Conclusions

  • Now I feel special and important and also I feel irrelevant and meaningless.
  • Writing this post has really hammered home the point that humans are mainly a temporary container for their genes. In 150 years, all 7,100,000,000 people alive today will be dead, but all of our genes will be doing just fine, living in other people.
  • After the first conclusion point, I was teetering on whether to feel good or bad about all of this. Then, I depressed the shit out of myself with the second point. But to throw my moping ego a bone, I’ll consider an interesting idea, that my descendants might not need to ask their Nana questions to learn about my life and get to know me a bit—technology changes everything. In 100 years, my great-great-grandson might be able to easily pull up all kinds of info/photos/videos and learn whatever he wants to, which I’m sure will be nothing because the last thing he’ll be thinking about is what his great-great-grandfather was like. Dammit.
  • In any case, for now, there’s really only one good way to learn about where you came from—so start asking.

 

 

So its seems that in nature, immortality comes at a price: the price is the loss of almost all of our personal identity, a loss which occurs as the organism is purged of all its cumulative damage and is rebuilt from scratch.

 

From a totally different Buddhist perspective, personal identity is rebuilt from scratch in each and every moment, according to the laws of causality. So not more of a loss than from moment to moment. :)

 


Edited by pamojja, 26 November 2017 - 03:40 PM.

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#7 Hip

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:53 PM

Who is the taciturn individual(s) pressing the "Ill informed" button on posts that are perfectly correct? Post your point, don't be timid and shy.


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#8 Rocket

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 04:08 PM

So, assuming the creation of elementary particles obeys entropy, and those particles creating atoms obeys entropy, and those atoms forming stars obeys entropy, and those stars form even more atoms obeys entropy, and on and on. . . everything obeys entropy until it comes to life and then life as you say does not obey entropy, then. . .

 

If observation or experiment disagree with theory, then that theory is either incomplete or is wrong.

 

Therefore as you say, life doesn't obey entropy, then either the theory of entropy is wrong or it is incomplete. There are no alternatives, unless of course you are incorrect or incomplete in your statement about life not obeying entropy.

 

 


Edited by Rocket, 27 November 2017 - 04:08 PM.


#9 Hip

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 04:49 PM

everything obeys entropy until it comes to life and then life as you say does not obey entropy, 

 

The universe as a whole obeys the 2nd law of thermodynamics, as do any closed isolated physical systems. So the 2nd law remains intact.

 

But locally on Earth, there is a net increase in negentropy, even though in the whole system (the universe), total negentropy always decreases.

 

If you don't quite grasp how this can be the case, here is an analogy: let's say in some country, the economy is in decline, and average wages are always going down. However, in spite of this, there may be some lucky people in that country whose wages are going up, bucking the overall downward trend. When we take the sum total of everyone's wage in that country, the average wage is still going down, but there are a few people whose wages are increasing. 

 

So this is bit like the negentropy situation on Earth: although in the universe as a whole, negentropy is on average always going down, there are some localized places like the Earth which buck the trend, where negentropy goes up.

 

In fact any planet in orbit around a shining star will enjoy the same situation of having a constant supply of negentropy, the ordering principle which allows complex life to develop. So negentropy may well be kicking off life on other planets in the universe.


Edited by Hip, 27 November 2017 - 04:51 PM.

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#10 Rocket

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 12:10 AM

I am aware of other people bringing entropy and thermodynamics into 'aging'. . . So what is new about this line of thinking that hasn't already been postulated by others? Is there anything of value in spending time on this? Myself, while I enjoy physics and mathematics, I don't see any value in going down this road.  We transition from good health into poor health with time because of the chemistry of the 'stuff' we're made of and our cells cannot repair themselves. Through our own metabolism we accumulate AGEs and lipofuscin and our telomeres shorten and cells become senescent and the vascular system accumulates junk.... and on and on... How does discussing the entropy of this helps solve this problem?


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#11 Hip

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 01:09 AM

I am aware of other people bringing entropy and thermodynamics into 'aging'. . . So what is new about this line of thinking that hasn't already been postulated by others?  Is there anything of value in spending time on this?

 

There is nothing new or original here; it's an exposition of existing understanding; but since the role of negentropy in evolution, bodily functioning and bodily repair may not be generally appreciated, this thread provides an introduction to those who might be interested. 

 

 

Through our own metabolism we accumulate AGEs and lipofuscin and our telomeres shorten and cells become senescent and the vascular system accumulates junk.... and on and on... How does discussing the entropy of this helps solve this problem?

 

I don't think there would be any practical anti-aging spin-offs arising from this discussion as far as I can see. It's more an abstract analysis of the laws of physics that underlie life, evolution, and why we age. 

 


Edited by Hip, 28 November 2017 - 01:09 AM.

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#12 Never_Ending

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 02:57 AM

Hip, those were very good points and clarifications. But I'd like to mention that the lack of negentropy itself in relation to aging could actually be a problem as well (in addition to lack of repair mechanisms for certain things, like you mentioned). The reason is that although we might be getting an external wave of negentropy and this helps sustain life on earth,  but this amount can be less than required to sustain an individual person(especially someone with a typical diet and lifestyle). When people have offspring the damage and excess entropy gets shed so therefore  the NE needed to propel a bloodline is less than the NE needed to propel a specific person indefinitely. Certain healthful foods and activities could potentially be helpful due to them boosting NE (along with other effects), where as certain substances might help due to the impact on repair mechanisms that utilize NE. So both are important, to promote NE as well as advanced mechanisms to utilize it.


Edited by Never_Ending, 28 November 2017 - 03:09 AM.

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#13 Hip

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 12:42 PM

the lack of negentropy itself in relation to aging could actually be a problem as wel

 

Humans receive negentropy simply by our energy inputs, which are the oxygen we breath, and the carbohydrates, fats and proteins we eat. Negentropy rides on the back of energy.

 

 

In the ecosystem on Earth, energy and negentropy is first extracted from the sunlight by photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis is like an antenna that picks up this energy and negentropy from the Sun; photosynthesis is the point where energy and negentropy first gets input into the ecosystem. Then as we know, using energy from the Sun, plants create oxygen and carbohydrates, which animals like humans then utilize as a source of energy and negentropy.

 

So animals are further down on the food chain of energy and negentropy; it's the plants that are the top of this food chain, getting their energy and negentropy directly from the Sun; but this is eventually distributed down the entire food chain to all lifeforms in the ecosystem.


Edited by Hip, 28 November 2017 - 12:43 PM.

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#14 Hip

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 04:18 PM

The person who pressed the "Ill informed" button on the above post must have a poor grasp physics if he or she thinks that post is ill informed, as well being too shy and taciturn to express themselves in a post of their own (possibly they are avoiding posting because they don't know very much).


Edited by Hip, 28 November 2017 - 04:24 PM.

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#15 pamojja

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 04:41 PM

The person who pressed the "Ill informed" button on the above post must have a poor grasp physics if he or she thinks that post is ill informed, as well being too shy and taciturn to express themselves in a post of their own (possibly they are avoiding posting because they don't know very much).

 

I too think the person who pressed repeatedly 'ill informed' will never post her/his opinion. Otherwise she/he would expose their own ignorance in differentiating between 'ill informed' and 'disagree' or 'dislike'.
 


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#16 Never_Ending

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:17 PM

 

the lack of negentropy itself in relation to aging could actually be a problem as wel

 

Humans receive negentropy simply by our energy inputs, which are the oxygen we breath, and the carbohydrates, fats and proteins we eat. Negentropy rides on the back of energy.

 

 

In the ecosystem on Earth, energy and negentropy is first extracted from the sunlight by photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis is like an antenna that picks up this energy and negentropy from the Sun; photosynthesis is the point where energy and negentropy first gets input into the ecosystem. Then as we know, using energy from the Sun, plants create oxygen and carbohydrates, which animals like humans then utilize as a source of energy and negentropy.

 

So animals are further down on the food chain of energy and negentropy; it's the plants that are the top of this food chain, getting their energy and negentropy directly from the Sun; but this is eventually distributed down the entire food chain to all lifeforms in the ecosystem.

 

 

I don't mean lack of as in there is none,   I meant lack of as in we normally don't get enough. I actually think animals are higher up on the food chain of negentropy. The reason is that animals consume condensed NE. However the problem with animals is that they create massive amounts of entropy due to their complexity and activity, compared to plants. Due to this high entropy level animals can only survive by inputing high density packages of substance, energy and NE, from food. Negentropy is not a black and white thing , some units of substance and nutrients store more NE than others. 
 


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#17 Rocket

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 03:25 PM

 

 

the lack of negentropy itself in relation to aging could actually be a problem as wel

 

Humans receive negentropy simply by our energy inputs, which are the oxygen we breath, and the carbohydrates, fats and proteins we eat. Negentropy rides on the back of energy.

 

 

In the ecosystem on Earth, energy and negentropy is first extracted from the sunlight by photosynthesis in plants. Photosynthesis is like an antenna that picks up this energy and negentropy from the Sun; photosynthesis is the point where energy and negentropy first gets input into the ecosystem. Then as we know, using energy from the Sun, plants create oxygen and carbohydrates, which animals like humans then utilize as a source of energy and negentropy.

 

So animals are further down on the food chain of energy and negentropy; it's the plants that are the top of this food chain, getting their energy and negentropy directly from the Sun; but this is eventually distributed down the entire food chain to all lifeforms in the ecosystem.

 

 

I don't mean lack of as in there is none,   I meant lack of as in we normally don't get enough. I actually think animals are higher up on the food chain of negentropy. The reason is that animals consume condensed NE. However the problem with animals is that they create massive amounts of entropy due to their complexity and activity, compared to plants. Due to this high entropy level animals can only survive by inputing high density packages of substance, energy and NE, from food. Negentropy is not a black and white thing , some units of substance and nutrients store more NE than others. 
 

 

 

Again, this "pie in the sky" attempt at formulating biological life in PURE mathematics will never yield a single beneficial result in reversing or slowing down again. We're not mathematical - we are chemical. 

 

Maybe it's neat to talk about this, but it is not beneficial in terms of explaining any of the problems of aging in a way that will lead to therapies.
 


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#18 Never_Ending

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:15 PM

 


 

Again, this "pie in the sky" attempt at formulating biological life in PURE mathematics will never yield a single beneficial result in reversing or slowing down again. We're not mathematical - we are chemical. 

 

Maybe it's neat to talk about this, but it is not beneficial in terms of explaining any of the problems of aging in a way that will lead to therapies.
 

 

 

We are mathematical, chemical, biological, all of them. It would seem good to understand as best as possible the situation of aging. You mentioned that you don't find it beneficial and that you "don't see any value in going down this road", but I do see value in it. You're just as free to talk about how a new chemical XYZ put in the body will delay death for 20 more years, unless you're doing the actual lab research the benefit in that discussion doesn't seem any more evident than this one does it.


Edited by Never_Ending, 30 November 2017 - 10:56 PM.

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#19 Keizo

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:38 AM

I do find it interesting to consider what limits physics (and chemistry, etc) places on evolution, however monumental a task that is. It might require a lot of smaller knowledge of biological organisms before grand patterns could be found. If we can understand which types of lifeforms are viable or even possible in some sense, given our location on earth and so forth, then we might see broadly what alternatives we have to our own way of being. 

I suppose one positive thing to consider is that humans perhaps aren't very optimized for long life, so perhaps there is untapped potential to curb aging (by changing our genes) without changing anything that would affect other important considerations too badly. 

 

I have heard that it might not be possible to construct/evolve a (biological) human being that could live for thousands of years, and there are reasons people have given.... 

However it might just be that it isn't plausible to happen via the evolutionary process because what would be the gain? human egos being pleased hardly is highest on the agenda and I can't see nature changing that priority anytime soon.

(I personally would even question what the benefits would be subjectively to us humans, even if we could live rather decent lives for the entire period I'd still assume there would be massive costs associated that might be greater than those of raising a child.)

And as far as humans doing the work in place of other selective forces it might just be too complicated a problem for us to solve.







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