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Please Help - Unknown Disorder

choline bitartrate cdp citicoline ashwagandha chamomile fatigue sensitivity

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#1 dk2011

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:00 PM


This is extremely difficult to type, because I'm extremely in massive fatigue and pain, and it seems that every time I try to reach out for help, being as desperate as I am, people either want to make fun or not believe me.  It's hard to explain without other people judging, saying I'm crazy, or looking for causes that I know are completely unrelated.  You've got to remember that I am speaking from 31 years of age, and I have some rare disorder that nobody has been able to accurately diagnose me with yet.  I have been to a general practitioner, neurologist, rheumatologist, have had extensive blood work done, as well as been to the E.R. over how severe this problem is.

 

Let's start from the beginning:  When I was as young as 13, I had a very unusual problem.  I was extremely sensitive to herbs (herbal medicines).  I first noticed it when washing my hair with a shampoo that happened to contain Ginseng in it without my knowledge.  All of a sudden, I was having symptoms that felt like what you would assume methamphetamines would feel like.  I was having racing heart beat, elevated breathing, racing thoughts, way too much energy, insomnia, etc.  The source of the problem was obvious as it happened immediately when I used that product.  I looked at the ingredient label and started looking up what was in the shampoo that possibly could have caused such a reaction.  The only ingredient that could possible cause symptoms like that:  Panax Ginseng Extract.  I did an internet search and looked up what Ginseng even was.  Boom!  Nailed it.  This type of thing kept happening over and over with all sorts of products, and it was very difficult to get people to understand me or take me seriously other than my parents.  The sensitivities were specific to whatever the actual herb does in the body.

 

After adversely reacting and being hypersensitive to countless extracts from age 13 to 19, a mix of good luck plus an internet user's advice led me to attempt to see if Ashwagandha would help in some way to give me relief.  It was like magic.  For the first time in my life (age 19), I could actually have contact with herbal medicines and not have a 1,000x's exaggerated reaction.  I began using Ashwagandha daily for over 4 years or so and it felt like an answered prayer.  The only caveat was that on days where I forgot to take it in the morning, all of my sensitivities started coming back.

 

During this four years, I discovered very quickly that Chamomile extract did the exact opposite.  If I took Chamomile (for relaxation, sleep, etc) it would directly negate the Ashwagandha and all of the sensitivities were come back just like before.

 

After reading that there is a possibility that the reason Ashwagandha is working is that it affects acetyl-cholinergic activity in the body, I decided to attempt to see if I could take Choline Bitartrate and/or CDP Choline to see if that would be a safer long-term option.  It seemed to work, although I remember pretty soon after starting Choline having intense muscular pain and massive unforgiving fatigue from the very beginning.  I could barely walk up a hill!!!  Which is unusual for a 24 year old male.  Then something even crazier happened:  The effects of either of those Choline supplements was permanent.  I didn't have to take anything at all and I was no longer sensitive to anything.  But not only that, herbal medicines didn't even work anymore.  As a matter of fact, no supplements at all seemed to work properly other than make me feel awful.  That was 2009.

 

The past 8 years have gone by living with extreme muscular fatigue and massive lack of energy, knowing it started immediately when I used CDP Choline & Choline Bitartrate and hasn't let up since, desperately trying every day to find out what went wrong and how to (partially) get the sensitivities rebalance, or get to a homeostasis.  After trying everything under the sun, I retried CDP Choline and Choline Bitartrate between March and July of this year, and they made me even WORSE.  I now have not been able to work in over 4 months, and I'm in severe fatigue and significant pain.  It feels like there is barely enough energy to breathe.  I've told my story to a neurologist at the medical center here, as well as the Emergency Room, my local doctor, and a Rheumatologist, and nobody seems to have a clue!

 

I feel so alone, because people want to judge me and say "I'm getting older" or "I need to eat better" or other online insults, when they don't know that my diet is fine, and they completely discredit all of the circumstances around what is wrong with me.  I obviously was born with some unknown disorder, I need help, and I'm desperate for somebody to crack this code for me.  I've attached a chart which may provide a summary.  I can't wait for the day when somebody can tell me what's causing this.

 

Any help is appreciated.  Ask any questions, but please be kind and understanding.  I would not have gone into so much detail in this post unless I was 100% certain about how these things affected me.

 

I'm looking for a supplement to REVERSE the imbalance caused by Choline Bitartrate and/or CDP Choline.  [See chart.]

 

Click to Enlarge:

Attached File  Screen Shot 2017-12-11 at 11.56.02 AM.png   130.16KB   0 downloads


#2 jack black

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 08:08 PM

A taught one and I have not idea what it is. Hopefully, someone smarter than myself will reply.


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#3 jack black

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:33 PM

sorry, meant tough and not taught. 

BTW, have you tried any anticholinergic agents such as benztropine (Cogentin), diphenhydramine (Benadryl), and trihexyphenidyl (Artane)?

How about dopaminergic stimulation?


Edited by jack black, 11 December 2017 - 09:34 PM.

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#4 dk2011

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:58 PM

Anytime I use Benadryl nowadays, it impairs my mental function significantly and makes have trouble speaking even, it is scary.  And it gives me significant nerve pain over my entire body.

 

What do you have in mind for dopaminergic stimulation?  I've tried Mucuna Pruriens (L-Dopa) on multiple occasions, and it didn't seem to help.



#5 jack black

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 01:33 AM

Benadryl is sedative due to antihistamine action. Any other anticholinergics? Have you tried piracetam?
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#6 gamesguru

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 01:48 AM

methamphetamines would feel like... ginseng [shampoo]

herbal medicines... 1,000x's exaggerated reaction

 

o rly? tell me more.  i need to remember these lines for later when i campaign under a bridge


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#7 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:06 AM

Drugs and herbs now do the OPPOSITE of what they are supposed to anymore in most cases.  Either that or they don't work at all or make me sick.  A perfect example is Benadryl.  One of the traditional uses of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) is to REDUCE motion sickness in a normal person.  After 2009 (when I used those two Choline ingredients), Benadryl GIVES me motion sickness, makes me dizzy, and makes the room spin and a loss of coordination.  Not sleepy.  And Benadryl also keeps me up with insomnia.  The opposite of how it USED to work normally for me.

 

I used Piracetam years ago in an attempt to fix this imbalance, and after checking my notes on my experience with it, I wrote that it gave me a boost in energy at first, but I wrote that it gave me enormous fatigue afterwards.  I wrote down in my notes that it was a total failure and for sure did not work.  I would have to totally justify retrying it if I was to reattempt for some reason.

 

I appreciate your taking time to help and theorize with me.  I got some very sad news that the neurologist who was helping me doesn't have anything more to offer, and I'm EXTREMELY FATIGUED and have intense nerve pain due to this problem.



#8 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:20 AM

 

methamphetamines would feel like... ginseng [shampoo]

herbal medicines... 1,000x's exaggerated reaction

 

o rly? tell me more.  i need to remember these lines for later when i campaign under a bridge

 

 

 

What kind of person says something like that?  Very kind words spoken to somebody with a rare unknown disorder.  Say that to my face next time.  I've been dealing with this since I was a teenager.  I'm now 31.  And the fact that nobody believes me is a major part of the reason I can't get help.  On top of it being hard to explain, but I tried my best.


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#9 Meggo

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:48 AM

Have you tried

 

Sulbutiamine

Bromantane

Modafinil

Seligilin

Unifiram

Pitolisant

ketogenic Diet

or NoFAP? 


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#10 meth_use_lah

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:06 PM

Do you know if you have been evaluated for Gullain-Barre syndrome/Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton myasthenic syndrome?


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#11 jack black

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:10 PM

This is a long shot, but could it be chronic fatigue syndrome triggered by some allergic reaction? Check your current symptoms against that.

Edited by jack black, 13 December 2017 - 02:12 PM.

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#12 Harkijn

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 04:22 PM

Hi dk, some of your symptoms may point to low absorption of vitamin B12. This medical condition is not very known to medical doctors and even if B12 blood levels seem sufficient when tested , in some individuals  the tissue levels are way  too low.

To check if this applies to your situation you can only do one thing: buy sublingual tablets of B12 and let one melt under your tongue every day. The type of B12 you should use is methylcobalamin. Short of B12 shots this is the easiest way .  Take one of these every day, let it melt under the tongue as slowly as possible and do not eat or drink for an hour after that. After some months decide if it helps for you.

The best of luck!


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#13 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:36 PM

It sounds a lot like something which no one has mentioned yet... FIBROMYALGIA! Along with Dysautonomia - people whom have Dysautonomia often react WILDLY to medications, which is in essence what's happening to you, herbal compounds or not - hypersentivity to stimulating compounds, such as ginseng, is certainly reported. (ussually it's caffeine -reported though, from coffee)

 

https://en.wikipedia...utonomia#Causes

 

Fatigue and pain are the hallmark symptoms of Fibromyalgia, so that's why I automatically suspect that - have you been evaluated for Fibromyalgia?

 

With that said... there's a crap-load of different diseases, often things which impair the auto-immune system somehow, which then in turn messes with the nervous systems. Have a look at the list for dysautonomia... do you have any such diseases in you family? Have you been tested for Lyme disease? That's often an easy thing to rule out, in order to figure something like this out.

 

 

I'll admit that I'm not well-versed in this disease, so I don't have any specific suggestions right off the cuff, but this review seems pretty good, going through some of the newer data on the disease:

 

Controversies and challenges in fibromyalgia: a review and a proposal

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5394529/

 

EDIT (while writing):

 

Upon further consideration, if it turns out that you have fibromyalgia, then Amitriptyline for depression, fatigue and pain seems like a good bet, and then Gabapentin to improve restoratory sleep. However... you do seem to have some kind of Dysautonomia - better be careful with this, and talk to your Dr. about using Amitriptyline, since we don't want it to trigger more autonomic issues - adrenergic storm, is what I'm thinking of. (excessive norepinephrinergic signalling, which can result in heart-attack)

 

Experimental drugs which act as antagonists of the Opioid Kappa receptors might be useful as well, since fear of various activities is increased, which such drugs might blunt. (they basically impair the brains ability to feel punishment, meaning that they make you braver, and make you care less when there actually is negative consequences - they don't discourage you as much) I myself have used such a drug, CERC-501, and have noted a discreet form of pain-blunting as well... which might be a result of the other opioidergic pathways becoming dominant when the kappa one is blunted.

 

Once again though, these drugs can have a kind of stimulatory effect, kappa-antagonism causes the release of dopamine and norepinephrine (to a lesser extent) - this might not be good if you have Dysautonomia.


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#14 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:52 PM

Have you tried

 

Sulbutiamine

Bromantane

Modafinil

Seligilin

Unifiram

Pitolisant

ketogenic Diet

or NoFAP? 

 

I have tried Sulbutiamine.  It failed.  NoFAP as well.

 

With how poorly my body is reacting to substances and meds now, I can't go around experimenting without having some potential explanation as to how it would help.

 

I need something to REVERSE whatever CDP Choline and/or Choline Bitartrate did to me, so that my medication sensitivities will partially come back.  In the meantime, I'm so fatigued that I cannot function.



#15 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 10:55 PM

This is a long shot, but could it be chronic fatigue syndrome triggered by some allergic reaction? Check your current symptoms against that.

 

You are correct.  Many people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome report adverse reactions to medications.  But CFS is a symptom, not the root cause.  I don't know what underlying condition I have that would cause CFS, and I don't know how to reverse what the Choline supplements did.

 

Important to note:  I can assure you it wasn't an allergic reaction at all.  My sensitivities slowly but surely went away until nothing worked right anymore with Choline usage.  I need to reverse what those Choline supplements did.



#16 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:03 PM

Do you know if you have been evaluated for Gullain-Barre syndrome/Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton myasthenic syndrome?

 

Between ages 13 to 24 when I was massively sensitive to all herbs and medicines, I did not have any other symptoms at all besides mild anxiety and my sensitivity to meds.  After I took CDP Choline and Choline Bitartrate at age 24, from that point forward, I had massive fatigue and a lack of sensitivity to meds.  This year I had more of those supplements, and my problem got exponentially worse.

 

I don't seem to have the symptoms of any of those disorders to my knowledge, but they could be related somehow.


Hi dk, some of your symptoms may point to low absorption of vitamin B12. This medical condition is not very known to medical doctors and even if B12 blood levels seem sufficient when tested , in some individuals  the tissue levels are way  too low.

To check if this applies to your situation you can only do one thing: buy sublingual tablets of B12 and let one melt under your tongue every day. The type of B12 you should use is methylcobalamin. Short of B12 shots this is the easiest way .  Take one of these every day, let it melt under the tongue as slowly as possible and do not eat or drink for an hour after that. After some months decide if it helps for you.

The best of luck!

 

I have taken Methyl B12 by Jarrow on multiple occasions to see if it would be the answer or might help.  It had no benefit to me.



#17 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:13 PM

It sounds a lot like something which no one has mentioned yet... FIBROMYALGIA! Along with Dysautonomia - people whom have Dysautonomia often react WILDLY to medications, which is in essence what's happening to you, herbal compounds or not - hypersentivity to stimulating compounds, such as ginseng, is certainly reported. (ussually it's caffeine -reported though, from coffee)

 

 

Ever since 2005, I have noticed a major trend that people with Fibromyalgia, Dysautonomia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, POTS Syndrome, etc. frequently react WILDLY to medications and have extreme sensitivities.  You are correct.  It is my theory that all of these "syndromes" are the exact same thing.  But nobody knows the root cause.  Nobody knows if it is the adrenal glands, nerve receptors, vagus nerve infection, etc that are actually causing all of those symptoms.

 

My main concern is finding a way to reverse what CDP Choline & Choline Bitartrate did to my body so that I can get SOME of my sensitivity back.  Because, those supplements are what caused my permanent massive fatigue.

 

 

Think of a teeter totter.  I was born with it balanced to the left.  Choline stuff flipped it to the right.  Now, I need to reverse what the Choline supplements did to get it back to the middle.



#18 dk2011

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:39 PM

Screen Shot 2017-12-11 at 11.56.02 AM.png

 

Can anybody help me explain why this chart I made holds true?

 

Summary:  Back when I was super-sensitive to stuff, Ashwagandha decreased my sensitivities and Chamomile increased them.  CDP Choline OR Choline Bitartrate permanently decreased my sensitivities, and I haven't found a way in 8 years to permanently increase them.  And the two herbs don't help either way anymore.  Can anybody help me fill in the blank?



#19 gamesguru

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 12:44 AM

Back when I was super-sensitive to stuff, Ashwagandha decreased my sensitivities and Chamomile increased them.

CDP Choline OR Choline Bitartrate permanently decreased my sensitivities

The two herbs don't help anymore.

 

do you think you would have gotten similar effects from lecithin?  if not, it may be a combination of things.. the uridine and your unique genes

 

Choline kinase-alpha by regulating cell aggressiveness and drug sensitivity is a potential druggable target for ovarian cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3899765/

 

Acetylcholine as a neuromodulator: cholinergic signaling shapes nervous system function and behavior

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3466476/

 

A novel choline-sensitive nicotinic receptor subtype that mediates enhanced GABA release in the chick ventral lateral geniculate nucleus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11906789

 

Inhibitory actions of bisabolol on α7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26283025

 

An in silico guided identification of nAChR agonists from Withania somnifera

http://www.tandfonli...69.2016.1207569


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#20 jack black

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:18 AM

 

from that link:

 

 

In the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), predominant dysautonomia is common along with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, and interstitial cystitis, raising the possibility that such dysautonomia could be their common clustering underlying pathogenesis.[9]

 

 

I learned something new today.


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#21 dk2011

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:47 AM

 

Back when I was super-sensitive to stuff, Ashwagandha decreased my sensitivities and Chamomile increased them.

CDP Choline OR Choline Bitartrate permanently decreased my sensitivities

The two herbs don't help anymore.

 

do you think you would have gotten similar effects from lecithin?  if not, it may be a combination of things.. the uridine and your unique genes

 

Choline kinase-alpha by regulating cell aggressiveness and drug sensitivity is a potential druggable target for ovarian cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3899765/

 

Acetylcholine as a neuromodulator: cholinergic signaling shapes nervous system function and behavior

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3466476/

 

A novel choline-sensitive nicotinic receptor subtype that mediates enhanced GABA release in the chick ventral lateral geniculate nucleus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11906789

 

Inhibitory actions of bisabolol on α7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26283025

 

An in silico guided identification of nAChR agonists from Withania somnifera

http://www.tandfonli...69.2016.1207569

 

 

gamesguru, those articles you quoted could be so close!!!  I mean there is some scientific explanation why Ashwagandha used to decrease the sensitivities, Chamomile used to increase them, and also why a CDP Choline permanently decreased them made me unresponsive to meds and herbs.

 

To answer your question, I'm not sure if lecithin would do the same thing.  I doubt it.  I think it was CDP Choline specifically that had the effect.

 

gamesguru, Do you see any leads or rational explanation for all those various effects of Ashwagandha, Chamomile, and CDP Choline?  Any linkage between everything from your research?



#22 dk2011

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 04:01 AM

 

from that link:

 

 

In the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), predominant dysautonomia is common along with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, and interstitial cystitis, raising the possibility that such dysautonomia could be their common clustering underlying pathogenesis.[9]

 

 

I learned something new today.

 

 

Notice how all those conditions are "syndromes" and does not identify a root cause.  The depressing reality is that I believe that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, POTS Syndrome, etc, all have the exact same root cause that's not yet discovered.


Edited by dk2011, 14 December 2017 - 04:40 AM.


#23 gamesguru

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 05:11 AM

but you mention choline bitartate as equally effective, and this is lacking the uridine/CDP group entirely.  

i already gave my best guess as to the explanation.
and now im ready to stab a guess as to why the supplements worked better when you were younger.

 

Phosphatidylcholine-lysophosphatidylcholine cycle pathway enzymes in rabbit lung. II. Marked differences in the effect of gestational age on activity compared to the CDP-choline pathway.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...v/pubmed/195262

Comparative distribution of nicotinic receptor subtypes during development, adulthood and aging: an autoradiographic study in the rat brain.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14980390

Adolescent nicotine treatment changes the response of acetylcholine systems to subsequent nicotine administration in adulthood
http://www.sciencedi...361923007004224

The Dynamic Effects of Nicotine on the Developing Brain
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2746456/

Eggs early in complementary feeding increase choline pathway biomarkers and DHA: a randomized controlled trial in Ecuador
http://ajcn.nutritio...cn.117.160515v1

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#24 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 09:58 AM

 

 

 

do you think you would have gotten similar effects from lecithin?  if not, it may be a combination of things.. the uridine and your unique genes

 

 

Inhibitory actions of bisabolol on α7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26283025

 

 

 

Well, well, well... this is a VERY good find Gamesguru! : D

 

Pertaining to your own issues, that is. A selective alpha-7-antagonist, with multiple other beneficial properties!

 

So... perhaps you should start combining CBD-oil with Essential Chamomille -oil, yes? Inhibiting that pesky, overactive amygdala of yours should definitively be priority #1. Unless you have already tried high-dose EC-oil without any effect?


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#25 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 10:23 AM

 

 

Back when I was super-sensitive to stuff, Ashwagandha decreased my sensitivities and Chamomile increased them.

CDP Choline OR Choline Bitartrate permanently decreased my sensitivities

The two herbs don't help anymore.

 

do you think you would have gotten similar effects from lecithin?  if not, it may be a combination of things.. the uridine and your unique genes

 

Choline kinase-alpha by regulating cell aggressiveness and drug sensitivity is a potential druggable target for ovarian cancer

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3899765/

 

Acetylcholine as a neuromodulator: cholinergic signaling shapes nervous system function and behavior

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3466476/

 

A novel choline-sensitive nicotinic receptor subtype that mediates enhanced GABA release in the chick ventral lateral geniculate nucleus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11906789

 

Inhibitory actions of bisabolol on α7-nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26283025

 

An in silico guided identification of nAChR agonists from Withania somnifera

http://www.tandfonli...69.2016.1207569

 

 

gamesguru, those articles you quoted could be so close!!!  I mean there is some scientific explanation why Ashwagandha used to decrease the sensitivities, Chamomile used to increase them, and also why a CDP Choline permanently decreased them made me unresponsive to meds and herbs.

 

To answer your question, I'm not sure if lecithin would do the same thing.  I doubt it.  I think it was CDP Choline specifically that had the effect.

 

gamesguru, Do you see any leads or rational explanation for all those various effects of Ashwagandha, Chamomile, and CDP Choline?  Any linkage between everything from your research?

 

 

Yes.

There's a linkage.

 

I'd also wish you would continue to look into Fibromyalgia - who cares what may have started it? If you have it, with Dysautonomia, then you have it.

 

 

When you mentioned the link between various auto-immune disorders, or disorders suspected to have auto-immune components, and your response to Choline, as well as how Gamesguru listed a nicotinic Alpha-7-antagonist in his links...

 

Then I remembered the recent data on how they have finally found some explanation for the excessive smoking among Schizophrenics - but also a connection to the IMMUNE SYSTEM.

 

 

Acetacholine, or Nicotinic Alpha-7-receptors in particular, have a controlling effect on the immune system. It could be... because of your... let's say, UNUSUAL genetics, that your immune system is more closely regulated by choline, than it is in other people. Choline and acetacholine, which are the result of using such supplements, cause a AGONISTIC effect - perhaps you should look into Alpha-7-*ANTAGONISM* as well?

If you want brute force, and much more easier to obtain drugs, then using high-dose Buproprion (every nACH-receptor antagonist) and then combine it with low-dose antipsychotic and clonidine, should block any and all excessive dopaminergic/norepinephrinergic signalling - what remains is nACH-antagonism. Might be the ticket for you.

(please also keep in mind that most peeps with fibromyalgia are also depressed, and you seem to be a bit depressed, so this could be a win-win situation for you! and finally - remember... it's suspected to be a immune-component to depression as well... do you see where I'm going with this? yes?)

 

 

References:

-------------------

Modulatory effects of α7 nAChRs on the immune system and its relevance for CNS disorders

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4894934/

 

Neuroimmune Interactions in Schizophrenia: Focus on Vagus Nerve Stimulation and Activation of the Alpha-7 Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptor

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5449450/

 

Alpha7 Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptor Is a Target in Pharmacology and Toxicology

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3292018/


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#26 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 10:37 AM

I am cutting down on my ADHD-medications, as such, I must post this below, since I cannot control myself.

 

*am excited for dk2011's response!* = )


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#27 dk2011

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 12:30 PM

(I don’t know whether it was Choline Bitartrate or CDP Choline that did this because I took them around the same time. But not always together.)

Well, my question is: Which of Ashwagandha’s actions used to relieve my sensitivities? And on the flip side, which of Chamomile’s used to increase them?

How were they directly antagonistic of each other?


Ashwagandha: ↓ Temporarily decreased sensitivities.
Chamomile: ↑ Temporarily increased sensitivities.

CDP Choline or Choline Bitartrate: ↓ Permanently decreased sensitivities.
__________________?: ↑ Permanently increases sensitivities.

#28 dk2011

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 01:38 PM

Also: Endogenerous vs exogenous. I think the reason that Chamomile & Ashwagandha were always temporary was because they were exogenous meds that only work while still in the body.

Perhaps the reason the choline supplement effects never rebounded was because the substance was endogenous. I need to the the endogenous solution, the mechanism by which my body should naturally be rebounding by itself if I didn’t have this disorder.
α7 nAChRs could be spot on guys. Now how do I find the ingredient that is endogenous to the body to reverse what I did?

#29 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:41 PM

Also: Endogenerous vs exogenous. I think the reason that Chamomile & Ashwagandha were always temporary was because they were exogenous meds that only work while still in the body.

Perhaps the reason the choline supplement effects never rebounded was because the substance was endogenous. I need to the the endogenous solution, the mechanism by which my body should naturally be rebounding by itself if I didn’t have this disorder.
α7 nAChRs could be spot on guys. Now how do I find the ingredient that is endogenous to the body to reverse what I did?

 

There are no known naturally occurring, within the human body, antagonists of receptors - all there is, are auto-receptors which are fail-safe breaks to shut down the other receptors in case they go haywire. Those respond to the same substances as the other receptors.

There's also the fact that there would still be something permanently wrong with you anyway - even if you come back to your previous state, you would still be in a state of dysautonomia - your immune-system would still make you go haywire whenever you use anything.

 

So... reversing this state might not mean much, since you'll still have a form of dysautonomia - all sorts of things could trigger something similar or equally bad, or even the same thing, again.

 

 

At least some of the states mentioned in the article, which causes Dysautonomia, are highly, highly hereditary - Fibromyalgia in particular, is proven to be familial. You need to consider that you were born with a malfunctioning immune system, and then take steps to permanently keep it in check.
 

As such... it is not unreasonable to assume that you would need a selective Alpha-7-antagonist, and possibly at times, an agonist, to keep a form of "terror-balance" in your body.

 

 

But to try and give you more of a potential endogenous approach... there are multiple people on this forum whom have been struck with "Acetacholine Syndrome" - i.e, they have been using such high dosages of choline-supplements, that they got stuck in a permanent "high-choline" state! For some of these people (some of the symptoms are somewhat similar to yours) have been helped by a HYPER-strict Choline-elimination diet.

 

It's a fairly extreme diet, but it seems to work - it's hard to balance all of the needs of the human body with it though, but it can be done - much like how people with epilepsy can balance their symptoms if they go on a completely ketogenic diet.

 

 

--EDIT WHILE WRITING--

 

Hey, wait a minute...! We've apparently already talked about this:

 

http://www.longecity...on-cdp-choline/

 

There, you even mention how you truly were born with Dysautonomia! : O

 

 

Anyways, I'm going to list some of the other choline-related threads, so you can take a look at them and see if there are any parallels, and if you can create your own hardcore choline elimination diet.

 

http://www.longecity...ergic-symptoms/

(person whom got heart-palpitations, brainfog and fatigue from choline-supplementation)

 

http://www.longecity...-and-dizziness/

(guy who got brain fog and fatigue from overdosing fish oil - Omega-3 are part of a enzyme chain which controls how much acetacholine your body synthesizes - increasing omega-3 can raise this dramatically)

 

http://www.longecity...nd-cdp-choline/

(guy whom choline-supplements first helped, but then they worsened his state and made him manic, it would appear - kind of the opposite of you)

 

http://www.longecity...-fog-permanent/

(got brain fog and depression from choline supplement - sounds in part like some of your issues - just on a much lower scale)

 

 

I'm having trouble finding the post where we conversed with a fellow whom actually went in for, and devised a, highly selective acetacholine-eliminating diet - but it's possible - just google on what substances contain the most choline - then start eliminating all of those things, until you're at an absolute minimum of choline-intake from diet. Be hardcore! The only thing that seems to work for other people with choline-sensitivity, is extremely strict diet.

 

Hypothetically, once your body runs out of choline, then signalling will go down - if you continue with extremely low choline signalling, for some time (read: 3 months), then, in essence, it will become antagonism, since antagonism is cancelling out the signalling coming from receptors, telling your cells to do certain things.

 

 

Sorry to say, but that's the only endogenous solution I can think of.


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#30 jack black

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 04:19 PM

 

 

from that link:

 

 

In the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), predominant dysautonomia is common along with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, and interstitial cystitis, raising the possibility that such dysautonomia could be their common clustering underlying pathogenesis.[9]

 

 

I learned something new today.

 

 

Notice how all those conditions are "syndromes" and does not identify a root cause.  The depressing reality is that I believe that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, POTS Syndrome, etc, all have the exact same root cause that's not yet discovered.

 

 

Looks like you are really a glass half empty guy indeed. I did some reading on CFS in the past and looks like there is a consensus that it's abnormal inflammatory reaction in genetically susceptible individuals that causes all the symptoms. it could be started by a viral infection like EBV or similar, and it really doesn't matter what triggers it. what matters is CFS has chronic immune dis-regulation and no one knows how to cure it.

 

On the other hand (here comes the glass half full part), we do know what medications help in CFS, see the patient reviews for yourself: https://www.drugs.co...ndrome-cfs.html

 

Obviously, I don't know if you really have CFS. If you have Fibromyalgia like Stinkorninjor suspects, the list of helpful medications is completely different (with some really surprising entries): https://www.drugs.co...bromyalgia.html

 

You may want to try those various treatments, see what works, and report back.

 

 


Edited by jack black, 14 December 2017 - 04:22 PM.

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