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Do micro-nutrients break the fast?

intermittent-fasting supplements

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#1 WhiteOwl

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 10:32 AM


I fast daily between 16-20 hours, I don't eat until late afternoon/evening. My stack includes micronurients (B, D, Zinc etc.) and I am not sure how to take them- B complex is problematic in the evening because it give you energy ("stimulates" seems a little too harsh), and I am not sure if it stops the fast in the morning or not. Same with D and Omega 3 - I would rather divide it into two daily doses, morning and evening, but omega 3 is fat and vitamin D is fat soluble so it must be taken with fat. Last but not least is tea/L-Theanine - I like to drink 500ml. Mate and Pu-er mix as soon as I wake up, but it includes L-Theanine and pretty sure that other vitamins as well. L-Theanine supplements help balance my Concerta but it is an amino acid.
Any guidelines as to what breaks the fast and what doesn't stop autophagy?



#2 recon

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:58 PM

Probably. IIRC, Dr Rhonda Patrick said that anything that stimulates the start of digestion or secretion of something breaks the fast. Her example is tea or coffee.

I’d say it’s less of the nutrient themselves than the excipients or the encapsulation.
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#3 sthira

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 01:25 AM

Probably. IIRC, Dr Rhonda Patrick said that anything that stimulates the start of digestion or secretion of something breaks the fast. Her example is tea or coffee.

Right, and that seems to have come from Satchin Panda's work. I find it discouraging if true (if drinking coffee while fasting isn't helping the fast) because I've fasted a lot, and have always drunk coffee throughout multiple fasts. Ugh.

As far as OP's questions about taking supplements and drinking tea while intermittent fasting ("16-20 hours") I doubt it's very well studied. I love fasting, though, and think it's been a wonderful addition to my lifestyle, but I'm leaning more into the idea that fasting's chief attributes result from eating fewer calories. It's CR. Then again Longo makes a compelling case (for cancer patients) that longer fasts (>3 days, e.g.) appear to activate a repair program in the body. That is, don't eat and "the body" begins looking around for other ways to do its thing. Bow down into metabolism we dive, genuflecting mechanistically. Autophagy is now mentioned, but autophagy... is way more complicated than just happening at once all over the body. It's not a singular event. Different organs may enter into dynamic states of autophagy at different times, etc, etc... hi rabbit hole.

For Longo: eating may activate a reproduction or growth program; not eating may deactivate it and set about a program consisting of "doing what it's gotta do" because no new nutrients are being eaten. It's an elegant idea, but of course who the hell knows because this is human biology we're talking about.

I'm wild ass speculating and saying maybe 16-20 hours isn't long enough to matter. But I do think for me I should keep allowing more and more time elapse between refeedings (even if I have coffee or tea...) because my system just functions better this way. I'm lighter, I'm happier, I'm less stressed by meal prep, I'm pooping out the last batch of meal stuff before adding another round of ground up plants. If drinking tea and swallowing supplements keeps you on the 16-20 hour intermittent fast route (and if this route is indeed even healthy for you) then I'd say keep doing what you're doing. (?)

Edited by sthira, 21 December 2017 - 01:37 AM.

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#4 WhiteOwl

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 02:12 PM

Well that's a bummer. So I guess even Concerta is problematic, let alone tea or amino acids.

I do 5-7 day long fasts  2-4 times a year, but IF is much more sustainable way to get the benefits of fasting on daily basis, and if anything you ingest stops the fast, I highly doubt that ANYONE does a proper IF. 

Do you happen to have the episode when she talks about this? 

Are there any tests that I can do to measure autophagy? I am willing to pay for bloods in a private lab, one time experiment and it is worth it. Perhaps I can measure ketone levels using a stick- even if ketosis is

not a strong indicator of autophagy, I assume that if I get out of ketosis after drinking amino acids/tea/b complex I'm definitely not in a fasting state anymore, right?



#5 sthira

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 04:45 PM

Love your user name -- owls are awesome! Especially snowys (Bubo scandiacus). Be grateful we don't have to hunt ten mice in a field everynight just to survive. Or lemmings...fast little fuckers

I do 5-7 day long fasts 2-4 times a year, but IF is much more sustainable way to get the benefits of fasting on daily basis, and if anything you ingest stops the fast, I highly doubt that ANYONE does a proper IF.
Do you happen to have the episode when she talks about this?

Satchin Panda may be the relevant name here, I think. And Rhonda's interview may be the first one with him, I think they've done. Both are recent in her podcast series.

About "...if anything you ingest stops the fast, I highly doubt that ANYONE does a proper IF..." Proper fast, what's that? Proper for whom, when, why? If you're already healthy, and you're fasting to further increase health, or maintain it, I'm not sure why proper matters very much. Don't eat for awhile; if you happen to drink some tea while fasting, no biggie. You'll pee soon. But if you have specific medical issues, it seems like more of a question to your caregivers, imho. Who of course don't know much about fasting or CR anyway, so we're here. But I don't think anyone's studied fasting to rigorous standards accepted by mainstream amongst healthy people -- I like the people at True North. Hey, the science ain't pinned down perfect, but they're doing their best with an very inexpensive, minimal bullshit ancient practice with often very sick, obese patients.

Are there any tests that I can do to measure autophagy? I am willing to pay for bloods in a private lab, one time experiment and it is worth it. Perhaps I can measure ketone levels using a stick- even if ketosis is
not a strong indicator of autophagy, I assume that if I get out of ketosis after drinking amino acids/tea/b complex I'm definitely not in a fasting state anymore, right?

Not to be a jerk, but again why does it matter to have some specific, affordable measurable autophagy indication when none exists? And even if a test exists (and maybe it does, anyone know?) what would it tell us? The body is busily doing its job and probably different organs are moving in and out of cellular cleanup and repair every waking moment. To slow aging might be to intensify internal repair through fasting, but hasn't our species been food deprived and grubbing in the diet to survive most of our existence?

I mean, if fasting and CR expended lifespan out to incredible lengths, we might have more examples of it today Maybe not, who knows. Natural selection has given us these repair mechanisms for the species that procreated more than the species that didn't, or died prematurely, but don't you want to extend your lifespan for centuries?

Fasting and CR(on) are healthy, but almost all of the researchers I've read and heard say things like -- sure fasting is healthy but what's even healthier is everyday "optimal" diet.

Personally, I'm gonna keep fasting regularly and practicing about 8-10% CR because it's working well for me so far.

Edited by sthira, 21 December 2017 - 04:46 PM.

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#6 recon

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:08 AM

Well that's a bummer. So I guess even Concerta is problematic, let alone tea or amino acids.
I do 5-7 day long fasts 2-4 times a year, but IF is much more sustainable way to get the benefits of fasting on daily basis, and if anything you ingest stops the fast, I highly doubt that ANYONE does a proper IF.
Do you happen to have the episode when she talks about this?
Are there any tests that I can do to measure autophagy? I am willing to pay for bloods in a private lab, one time experiment and it is worth it. Perhaps I can measure ketone levels using a stick- even if ketosis is
not a strong indicator of autophagy, I assume that if I get out of ketosis after drinking amino acids/tea/b complex I'm definitely not in a fasting state anymore, right?

She talks about it in a Joe Rogan’s podcast. The discussion about this is on reddit at https://www.reddit.c...fee_yes_black/.

You highly doubt anyone does IF if the standard is nothing at all? I did it for four days per three months. I know it’s not much in the context of life-extensionist but it’s definitely alright.

I mean, no one says it’ll be easy. I’d expect there’ll be challenges.

#7 Mr. Olive Oil

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 07:39 AM

I recall Datbtrue (when he was around on his forum) provided a study that showed antioxidants during the fast removed the positive effects of calorie restriction. I wish I could find it right now.







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