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Megadose vitamin A, D3, E, and K2

retinyl acetate vitamin d

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#1 baccheion

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 01:16 AM


Thoughts (daily amounts; 6 months)? Is there anything missing?

Ratio: 2500 IU A :: 600 IU D3 :: 22 IU E :: 90 mcg K2 MK-4

- 500,000 IU vitamin A (retinyl acetate)
- 100,000 IU vitamin D3
- 3,600 IU vitamin E (D-alpha-tocopherol)

- 30,000 mcg vitamin K(2 MK-4)
- 120 mcg vitamin K(2 MK-7)

- AOR Advanced B-Complex
- 3g Now C-1000 (sustained release)
- Life Extension Only Trace Minerals

- 500 mg calcium bisglycinate
- 250 mg magnesium aspartate
- 800 mcg L-selenomethionine
- 1g potassium iodide

Edited by baccheion, 24 December 2017 - 01:20 AM.

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#2 pamojja

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 02:03 PM

Why on earth you would want to take that much preformed Vitamin A???

 

Though toxicity of Vitamin A is a bid exaggerated:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia..._A#Side_effects

 

In general, acute toxicity occurs at doses of 25,000 IU/kg of body weight, with chronic toxicity occurring at 4,000 IU/kg of body weight daily for 6–15 months.[42] However, liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU (4500 micrograms) per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU, particularly with excessive consumption of alcohol.[citation needed] In people with renal failure, 4000 IU can cause substantial damage. Signs of toxicity may occur with long-term consumption of vitamin A at doses of 25,000-33,000 IU per day.[1]

 

It still does occur and then isn't easy to correct: https://www.healthex...min-a-toxicity/ (also take a look at the comments, it doesn't seem that rare at even much lower doese). With 500.000 IU per day for 6 months your definitely will poison yourself.

 

Also 100.000 IU of vitamin D3 will bring you in big trouble with the care-less-ness you expose with this opening post. See here for proper precautions on such high doses for certain conditions: http://www.vitaminda...rchers/coimbra/

 

 

Thoughts (daily amounts; 6 months)? Is there anything missing?

 

The perfect receipt to give you huge health troubles and toxicities. Nothing missing for that.


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#3 recon

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 04:25 AM

What are you hoping to achieve?

#4 baccheion

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:22 PM

Why on earth you would want to take that much preformed Vitamin A???

 

Though toxicity of Vitamin A is a bid exaggerated:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia..._A#Side_effects

 

In general, acute toxicity occurs at doses of 25,000 IU/kg of body weight, with chronic toxicity occurring at 4,000 IU/kg of body weight daily for 6–15 months.[42] However, liver toxicities can occur at levels as low as 15,000 IU (4500 micrograms) per day to 1.4 million IU per day, with an average daily toxic dose of 120,000 IU, particularly with excessive consumption of alcohol.[citation needed] In people with renal failure, 4000 IU can cause substantial damage. Signs of toxicity may occur with long-term consumption of vitamin A at doses of 25,000-33,000 IU per day.[1]

 

It still does occur and then isn't easy to correct: https://www.healthex...min-a-toxicity/ (also take a look at the comments, it doesn't seem that rare at even much lower doese). With 500.000 IU per day for 6 months your definitely will poison yourself.

 

Also 100.000 IU of vitamin D3 will bring you in big trouble with the care-less-ness you expose with this opening post. See here for proper precautions on such high doses for certain conditions: http://www.vitaminda...rchers/coimbra/

 

 

Thoughts (daily amounts; 6 months)? Is there anything missing?

 

The perfect receipt to give you huge health troubles and toxicities. Nothing missing for that.

Why obvious stupidity? I've read abstracts of various studies that used 100,000 - 500,000 IU/day of vitamin A for months without major issue. 
 
It appears large amounts of vitamin A can be taken if vitamin D remains sufficient. And vitamin D if enough vitamin K2, vitamin A, and magnesium are available. 
 
Vitamin A toxicity seems to result from depletion of vitamin D. Other issues could be liver storage cells (stellites?) swelling/bursting after running out of space.
 
Vitamin D toxicity symptoms seem to reflect a state of hypercalcemia (and calcification) and is absent/deferred when enough vitamin K2 is available/taken. Toxicity risk is further reduced and vitamin D effectiveness is further increased with sufficient amounts of vitamin A and magnesium.
 
Vitamin E buffers against vitamin A rancidity, and increases absorption and reusability.
 
 
 
 
What amounts would you say are the maximum for vitamin A and vitamin D? According to the last link 200,000 IU retinyl palmitate was taken for months without issue. On the other hand, vitamin D wasn't included to determine the "augmented" upper limit.
 
As for vitamin E, I have been trying to figure out how to supplement. I'm aware it would be good to add at least gamma tocopherol (and others as present in something like SupraBio), but I'm not sure if any needs to be proportional to D-alpha tocopherol or if they just need to be present. From all I've read, it seems they all fight each other and even adding tocotrienols may counter one/some of the tocopherols. I'm also unsure if vitamin E needs to be proportional to vitamin A (as is the case in the stack above) or if it just needs to be present. And then if just present, then how much?
 
I've seen reports of people taking 2,000 IU/day for extended periods of time with nothing else and they seem to not have any issues. Also, different sites/sources claim different targets. That is, some says D-alpha tocopherol lowers absorption/effectiveness of all tocopherols and tocotrienols, some say just gamma tocopherol, and some say just D-alpha tocotrienol.
 
Based on Life Extension's Two-Per-Day multivitamin, it may be just gamma tocopherol that's also required. But it's still not clear and not clear how much.

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#5 pamojja

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 04:58 PM

 

 

Thoughts (daily amounts; 6 months)? Is there anything missing?

 
The perfect receipt to give you huge health troubles and toxicities. Nothing missing for that.

 

 
Why obvious stupidity?

 
Didn't say that. Just that toxicity is very likely at that intakes. Again, what you want to accomplish with such risky doses? - It's all about context. With a deathly disease one takes much higher risks. But not in good health.
 

What amounts would you say are the maximum for vitamin A and vitamin D?

 
The problem is this is highly individual. Maybe a weak kidney or liver is all what is needed to cause adverse effects at already much lower doses. Given such isn't present, indeed only above 200 ng/ml 25(OH)D does show labs abnormalities, with still no directly felt adverse effects. However, with 100.000 IU for 6 months you're bound to exceed that limit.
 
Since these toxicity limits are very individual, I would proceed very cautiously with lowest doses, and increase gradually over months and years, while doing lab testing: 25(OH)D3, retinol and retinol binding protein. The problem here with retinol testing is, that it shows deficiency, but wouldn't detect excess in the liver. Therefore again, by slowly increasing over long time periods one can catch toxicity by their first symptoms, before they might become too severe.
 
In my experience vitamin D3 to just get me in a range of 60-80 (about 8.000 IUs) increased my Magnesium needs so badly, that it pushed a subclinical Mg deficiency to very, very severe. In that I had to supplement concurrently at least 2 g/d of elemental Mg just to avoid most painful muscle-cramps. Still didn't improved my RBC Mg levels even a bit from very deficient levels after many years. I'm concurrently on IVs in my long trial to correct it. That happened with just 8.000 IU, not the 100.000 you're contemplating.
 
In my case found above 24.000 IU Vitamin A per day is all what was needed to get rid of infrequent psoriasis outbreak. Using the lowest but fully therapeutic dose in the long-term just does make more sense for avoiding depletion of other nutrients involved in the same metabolic pathways.
 
What on earth you are trying to cure with 500.000 IUs Vitamin A?
 


Edited by pamojja, 26 December 2017 - 05:07 PM.

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#6 pamojja

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 05:00 PM

Vitamin D toxicity symptoms seem to reflect a state of hypercalcemia (and calcification) and is absent/deferred when enough vitamin K2 is available/taken. Toxicity risk is further reduced and vitamin D effectiveness is further increased with sufficient amounts of vitamin A and magnesium.


That seems to be the case by preliminary studies. However, all these nutrients haven't been studied in combination in humans. Nor as combination at such astronomical doses.


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#7 baccheion

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 05:51 AM










Thoughts (daily amounts; 6 months)? Is there anything missing?


The perfect receipt to give you huge health troubles and toxicities. Nothing missing for that.


Why obvious stupidity?



Didn't say that. Just that toxicity is very likely at that intakes. Again, what you want to accomplish with such risky doses? - It's all about context. With a deathly disease one takes much higher risks. But not in good health.

What amounts would you say are the maximum for vitamin A and vitamin D?


The problem is this is highly individual. Maybe a weak kidney or liver is all what is needed to cause adverse effects at already much lower doses. Given such isn't present, indeed only above 200 ng/ml 25(OH)D does show labs abnormalities, with still no directly felt adverse effects. However, with 100.000 IU for 6 months you're bound to exceed that limit.

Since these toxicity limits are very individual, I would proceed very cautiously with lowest doses, and increase gradually over months and years, while doing lab testing: 25(OH)D3, retinol and retinol binding protein. The problem here with retinol testing is, that it shows deficiency, but wouldn't detect excess in the liver. Therefore again, by slowly increasing over long time periods one can catch toxicity by their first symptoms, before they might become too severe.

In my experience vitamin D3 to just get me in a range of 60-80 (about 8.000 IUs) increased my Magnesium needs so badly, that it pushed a subclinical Mg deficiency to very, very severe. In that I had to supplement concurrently at least 2 g/d of elemental Mg just to avoid most painful muscle-cramps. Still didn't improved my RBC Mg levels even a bit from very deficient levels after many years. I'm concurrently on IVs in my long trial to correct it. That happened with just 8.000 IU, not the 100.000 you're contemplating.

In my case found above 24.000 IU Vitamin A per day is all what was needed to get rid of infrequent psoriasis outbreak. Using the lowest but fully therapeutic dose in the long-term just does make more sense for avoiding depletion of other nutrients involved in the same metabolic pathways.

What on earth you are trying to cure with 500.000 IUs Vitamin A?

An oil spray is usually one of the better ways to correct a magnesium deficiency.

I'm considering lowering vitamin A to 200,000 IU. I found a study that shows abnormalities at 300,000 IU (palmitate) or above and a guide that suggests a maximum of 4000 IU/kg (280,000 IU in my case). The cutoffs are similar, and another site/person says it takes a while for vitamin A to achieve full effect and that taking more doesn't really speed it up. The main thing seems to be crossing the 100,000 IU threshold. I'm not too worried now, as I'll only be supplementing for about 6 months. I also plan to lower vitamin D to 50,000 IU and vitamin E to 2,000 IU.

I am still trying to figure out what to do with vitamin E. I have decided to stick with 2,000 IU D-alpha tocopherol and I'm now wondering how to introduce the other 7 forms of vitamin E. That is, there seems to be antagonistic interactions, and I'm not sure if they are needed in proportion to the amount of D-alpha tocopherol or if they only need to be present in standard amounts. For example, would I take 5 Unique E capsules and 5 SupraBio capsules, or 1 of each and an extra 1,600 IU D-alpha tocopherol? Suggestions?

Edited by baccheion, 28 December 2017 - 05:57 AM.

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#8 pamojja

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 12:55 PM

Now you avoided to answer the question for your reason to take such really risky amounts already the third time. So we all have to assume the worst.. Sorry about that, if it is really the case.
 

An oil spray is usually one of the better ways to correct a magnesium deficiency.

 

Tried it for a month, but didn't decrease my oral needs even the slightest bid. Beside the lack of success, found it rather inconvenient to apply consistently. With now 3 magnesium sulfate IVs within one month the same. Though I read that it needs at least 8 IVs to correct severe Mg deficiency. Only difference experienced till now is, that I seem to constantly dream during sleep. Before in life almost never remembered dreams. Some supplements improved that temporarily (for example resistant starch, some probiotics) but never as consistently as now with the Mg IVs. So it is doing something..
 

I am still trying to figure out what to do with vitamin E. I have decided to stick with 2,000 IU D-alpha tocopherol and I'm now wondering how to introduce the other 7 forms of vitamin E. That is, there seems to be antagonistic interactions, and I'm not sure if they are needed in proportion to the amount of D-alpha tocopherol or if they only need to be present in standard amounts. For example, would I take 5 Unique E capsules and 5 SupraBio capsules, or 1 of each and an extra 1,600 IU D-alpha tocopherol? Suggestions?

 

Again, never really studied. All we know is when d-alpha tocopherol is supplemented, that it greatly decreases gamma-tocopherol levels in the blood. How much would be needed to off-set this loss was never studied (as far as I know). Same with the depletion of tocotrienols.

 

What we know is that in the standard American diet - with all the soybean oils - has a higher gamma than alpha-tocopherol intake in Milligrams. Personally calculated my gammas to be 3/4 of the alphas I get through diet in Milligrams. And that ratio is what I supplement.

 

To know for sure all you could do is getting lab tests for alpha and gamma-tocopherols and then adjust.


Edited by pamojja, 28 December 2017 - 01:10 PM.

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#9 baccheion

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 02:32 PM

Now you avoided to answer the question for your reason to take such really risky amounts already the third time. So we all have to assume the worst.. Sorry about that, if it is really the case.

An oil spray is usually one of the better ways to correct a magnesium deficiency.

Tried it for a month, but didn't decrease my oral needs even the slightest bid. Beside the lack of success, found it rather inconvenient to apply consistently. With now 3 magnesium sulfate IVs within one month the same. Though I read that it needs at least 8 IVs to correct severe Mg deficiency. Only difference experienced till now is, that I seem to constantly dream during sleep. Before in life almost never remembered dreams. Some supplements improved that temporarily (for example resistant starch, some probiotics) but never as consistently as now with the Mg IVs. So it is doing something..

I am still trying to figure out what to do with vitamin E. I have decided to stick with 2,000 IU D-alpha tocopherol and I'm now wondering how to introduce the other 7 forms of vitamin E. That is, there seems to be antagonistic interactions, and I'm not sure if they are needed in proportion to the amount of D-alpha tocopherol or if they only need to be present in standard amounts. For example, would I take 5 Unique E capsules and 5 SupraBio capsules, or 1 of each and an extra 1,600 IU D-alpha tocopherol? Suggestions?

Again, never really studied. All we know is when d-alpha tocopherol is supplemented, that it greatly decreases gamma-tocopherol levels in the blood. How much would be needed to off-set this loss was never studied (as far as I know). Same with the depletion of tocotrienols.

What we know is that in the standard American diet - with all the soybean oils - has a higher gamma than alpha-tocopherol intake in Milligrams. Personally calculated my gammas to be 3/4 of the alphas I get through diet in Milligrams. And that ratio is what I supplement.

To know for sure all you could do is getting lab tests for alpha and gamma-tocopherols and then adjust.
How much of the oil spray did you use? I applied it all over like lotion and deficiency was corrected in weeks.

I am looking into this stack to:

- See what effects it will have
- Heal dental caries
- Regrow/regenerate broken teeth
- Remodel/grow bones
- Fix/grow a weak chin/mandibular
- Restore any damaged/weakened cartilage (spinal, especially)
- Remyelinate flairs/lesions
- Perhaps treat/cure schizophrenia-/OCD- like symptoms
- Heal whatever's problematic that I'm not aware of

Edited by baccheion, 28 December 2017 - 02:34 PM.

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#10 pamojja

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 03:32 PM

How much of the oil spray did you use? I applied it all over like lotion and deficiency was corrected in weeks.

 

Whole body application too.

 

I am looking into this stack to:

- See what effects it will have
- Heal dental caries
- Regrow/regenerate broken teeth
- Remodel/grow bones
- Fix/grow a weak chin/mandibular
- Restore any damaged/weakened cartilage (spinal, especially)
- Remyelinate flairs/lesions
- Perhaps treat/cure schizophrenia-/OCD- like symptoms
- Heal whatever's problematic that I'm not aware of

 

So you're taking that much risks without a deathly condition? :wacko:

 

Most of these effects would take many years, and by taking such high doses you risk such a high and sudden overload, which could prevent you from taking even normal doses the coming years. And worsening everything.

 

For all the things you list, there are much less risky options. For caries and broken teeth dentures. For remodeling bones I would consider much higher vitamin K2-mk4 much more effective and almost risk-free. For cartilage for example high dose vitamin C and bone-broth. For lesions would seriously look in Dr. Coimbra's protocol with the guidance of a MD in the known, and with all the recommended lab testing (incl. avoiding any dietary calcium, not supplementing any). For mental issues I would first of all try high dose nicotinic acid, for OCD for example Inositol. And for whatsoever unknown problematic comprehensive supplementation of all vitamins, most minerals, some amino acids and selected herbal extracts.

 

For knowing what other effects it would have - with long-term supplementation starting very low and gradually increasing while comprehensively testing most important labs - you would find out just as well, and more in tune with the time-frame such impossible-to-have-effects you seek could take. With the advantage of not risking dangerous sudden overload and toxicities.

 

At least you consider to substantially lower those insane amounts to 200.000 IU Retinol (still more than in the ladies report I linked to above, which after less than a week caused serious difficulties for many months) and 50.000 Vitamin D3.

 

However, to test all electrolytes, kidney and liver function, hormones, CBC, etc. is still a must, at much lower doses already.


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#11 baccheion

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:38 AM

How much of the oil spray did you use? I applied it all over like lotion and deficiency was corrected in weeks.


Whole body application too.

I am looking into this stack to:

- See what effects it will have
- Heal dental caries
- Regrow/regenerate broken teeth
- Remodel/grow bones
- Fix/grow a weak chin/mandibular
- Restore any damaged/weakened cartilage (spinal, especially)
- Remyelinate flairs/lesions
- Perhaps treat/cure schizophrenia-/OCD- like symptoms
- Heal whatever's problematic that I'm not aware of


So you're taking that much risks without a deathly condition? :wacko:

Most of these effects would take many years, and by taking such high doses you risk such a high and sudden overload, which could prevent you from taking even normal doses the coming years. And worsening everything.

For all the things you list, there are much less risky options. For caries and broken teeth dentures. For remodeling bones I would consider much higher vitamin K2-mk4 much more effective and almost risk-free. For cartilage for example high dose vitamin C and bone-broth. For lesions would seriously look in Dr. Coimbra's protocol with the guidance of a MD in the known, and with all the recommended lab testing (incl. avoiding any dietary calcium, not supplementing any). For mental issues I would first of all try high dose nicotinic acid, for OCD for example Inositol. And for whatsoever unknown problematic comprehensive supplementation of all vitamins, most minerals, some amino acids and selected herbal extracts.

For knowing what other effects it would have - with long-term supplementation starting very low and gradually increasing while comprehensively testing most important labs - you would find out just as well, and more in tune with the time-frame such impossible-to-have-effects you seek could take. With the advantage of not risking dangerous sudden overload and toxicities.

At least you consider to substantially lower those insane amounts to 200.000 IU Retinol (still more than in the ladies report I linked to above, which after less than a week caused serious difficulties for many months) and 50.000 Vitamin D3.

However, to test all electrolytes, kidney and liver function, hormones, CBC, etc. is still a must, at much lower doses already.
As indicated in an earlier post, I plan to lower A, D, and E to 200,000 IU, 50,000 IU, and 2,000 IU.

#12 Believer

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:09 PM

I hate when people try to play concerned about other people's health when they really don't care and when we could be learning a lot from a person's self-experiments.

I too wanted to test if these vitamins could help all of those things, OP, so I encourage you to persist.

 

As for a severe magnesium deficiency, the primary symptom is not muscle cramping but headache. The secondary symptom is muscle cramping.


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#13 pamojja

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 12:18 PM

I hate when people try to play concerned about other people's health when they really don't care and when we could be learning a lot from a person's self-experiments.

 
Extreme self-experiments make only sense with a benefit-risk analysis, once it is assured that much lower doses don't already gave serious toxicities. If there are serious toxicities at much lower doses, as it was in this case, and I could bring it to the attentions of the threat-starter - thereby at least making him substantially reduce it - I'm glad, because of the likelihood of avoiding unnecessary suffering.

 

Admittedly, though I do care about the OP, much more so about other novices following such experiments without doing the necessary homework, and thereby unavoidably creating much bad press about 'dangerous' supplements. Like also in this case, even 'recommended' by a pratitioner: https://www.healthex...min-a-toxicity/ While the therapeutic dosage ranges of vitamins are already huge and with much potential.
 

I too wanted to test if these vitamins could help all of those things, OP, so I encourage you to persist.

 

Wow. What a coward!

 

Let others do the risky experiments, from which you want to profit? And let him have all the risks alone?


Edited by pamojja, 30 December 2017 - 12:20 PM.

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#14 Believer

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:00 PM

Wow. What a coward!

Let others do the risky experiments, from which you want to profit? And let him have all the risks alone?

You always ruin threads with your effeminate hysteria and conflict seeking.

When I want to try an experiment I post it on forums so others can gain knowledge from it. If others want to do the same then I appreciate it.

 

You are an example of an overly social, effeminate liberal that always seeks to create unnecessary social conflicts over imaginary issues in your head. Or you seek to pretend to be interested in other people's lives while you, as is typical for effeminate people, have no capacity for such interests. I assume you go on Facebook and whine about missing "rights" of various "marginalized" groups of people you secretly actually despise.

 

Now, go have a soymilk drink and relax! This isn't Reddit, thank G-d.


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#15 Mind

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 10:04 PM

Why would you risk vitamin A toxicity. Not sure what the benefit of taking so much preformed vitamin A might be.


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#16 baccheion

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 07:54 AM

Why would you risk vitamin A toxicity. Not sure what the benefit of taking so much preformed vitamin A might be.

What about the new doses: 200,000 IU vitamin A, 50,000 IU vitamin D, and 2,000 IU vitamin E?
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#17 pamojja

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 11:50 AM

What about the new doses: 200,000 IU vitamin A, 50,000 IU vitamin D, and 2,000 IU vitamin E?

 

As already outlined above, the changes you seek would very likely take more than 6 years. If you start at normal doses and gradually increase over years, while measuring all lab markers (as also already mentioned above), the chances are much higher that you succeed at already much lower doses than that, in that long time-frame. And any toxicity risks are much less.
 


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#18 pamojja

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 12:02 PM

You are an example of an overly social, effeminate liberal that always seeks to create unnecessary social conflicts over imaginary issues in your head. Or you seek to pretend to be interested in other people's lives while you, as is typical for effeminate people, have no capacity for such interests. I assume you go on Facebook and whine about missing "rights" of various "marginalized" groups of people you secretly actually despise.

 

Now, go have a soymilk drink and relax! This isn't Reddit, thank G-d.

 

That you only have a completely unfounded ad-hominem attack - instead of any substantial argument - only confirms my suspicion. Sorry, but you seem to confuse me with someone else, I never been on Facebook or Reddit. And actually do social work.

 


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#19 Believer

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 03:21 PM

I am sure you will be very glad that I post this as it should give good information as to the "toxicity" of vitamin A.

I have taken for about 3 weeks every day the following:

http://www.lifeexten...nced-K2-Complex

1.5mg vitamin K1 (1.1mg K2)

https://www.iherb.co...-Softgels/69616

400IU vitamin E (as d-alpha, d-delta, d-beta, d-gamma tocopherols)

https://www.iherb.co...-Soft-Gels/2778

25,000IU vitamin A (fish liver oil retinyl palmitate)

A few days ago I also added vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) 20,000IU

 

Here's what I noticed a few days after adding the vitamin D: dry skin on my forehead (also burns a little), itchy skin on my arms, very mild sense of head tightness or headache (could be caffeine withdrawal).

 

Vitamin E and potentially vitamin D as well are supposed to prevent vitamin A toxicity according to studies.

Is it possible that I am not taking enough vitamin E for the vitamin A I am taking?

 


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#20 Nate-2004

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 04:47 PM

I never saw this till now and I'm sure it's already been said, but say goodbye to your liver with that kind of regimen. K2 and A do some nasty things in excess. Unless you have a tough time converting beta carotene from leafy greens to A, like I do, don't bother with taking A (assuming you get your leafy greens which you should if you're into longevity). Even then, take it in low doses only every other day (5,000 IU or less). K2 also should be taken sparingly, it is not good for the liver. Leafy greens like lettuce has a lot of K2.

 

D is always good in modern times, but only up to about 10,000 IU. 

 

E should be limited too and only in the mixed tocopherol form with plenty of gamma tocopherol, otherwise eat plenty of nuts which has both forms.

 

E and other antioxidants should really be timed far from workouts (2 to 4 hours after a workout at least), breaks should be taken and always try to take them around the time you eat any fats like PUFAs. Again, mixing in ground nuts like pecans or walnuts, or macadamias (if you can afford them) with food can be enough. They have a good ratio of PUFAs.


Edited by Nate-2004, 28 January 2018 - 04:50 PM.

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#21 Believer

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 05:21 PM

I never saw this till now and I'm sure it's already been said, but say goodbye to your liver with that kind of regimen. K2 and A do some nasty things in excess. Unless you have a tough time converting beta carotene from leafy greens to A, like I do, don't bother with taking A (assuming you get your leafy greens which you should if you're into longevity). Even then, take it in low doses only every other day (5,000 IU or less). K2 also should be taken sparingly, it is not good for the liver. Leafy greens like lettuce has a lot of K2.

 

D is always good in modern times, but only up to about 10,000 IU. 

 

E should be limited too and only in the mixed tocopherol form with plenty of gamma tocopherol, otherwise eat plenty of nuts which has both forms.

 

E and other antioxidants should really be timed far from workouts (2 to 4 hours after a workout at least), breaks should be taken and always try to take them around the time you eat any fats like PUFAs. Again, mixing in ground nuts like pecans or walnuts, or macadamias (if you can afford them) with food can be enough. They have a good ratio of PUFAs.

Why then do they have a very low toxicity level, if they are toxic in higher dosages? As for A and D's toxicity, they can be ameliorated with E and K.

There is some evidence for increased cancer risk of A but not really any things suggesting liver toxicity to my knowledge.

 


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#22 rwac

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 03:31 AM


https://www.iherb.co...-Softgels/69616

400IU vitamin E (as d-alpha, d-delta, d-beta, d-gamma tocopherols)

Is it possible that I am not taking enough vitamin E for the vitamin A I am taking?

 

You may want to get more vit E, but also pay attention to the quality. The right brand of vitamin E should give you a hormonal boost.


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#23 Dorian Grey

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 04:12 AM

I'll never understand megadosing madness.  More isn't always better!

 

I've seen some interesting research on ultra high dose IV Vitamin-C for specific disease therapies, and the USDA recommendation for Vitamin-D (400IU) is around one tenth apparent optimal, but other than this I've not seen much well researched and documented evidence for megadosing anything else.  

 

Vitamin-A has some real horror stories associated with it.  Accutane (a derivative of Vitamin-A) is notorious for persistent side effects and devastating complications.  Google "Accutane horror stories" for more on this.  

 

We all live and learn.  I'm old enough to prefer not learning things the hard way anymore.  


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#24 pamojja

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 08:37 AM

I'll never understand megadosing madness.  More isn't always better!

 

As already stated, it always depends on context. For example made great progress with Pauling therapy, but only once I exceeded his megadose recommendation for vitamin C and lysine.

 

Was on the fence with preformed vitamin A for a long time too, and only increased gradually over years while monitoring lab-markers. Only recently I reached Linus Pauling's recommendation of 25.000 IU per day of vitamin A. To my surprise at that dose my infrequent psoriasis outbreaks completely ceased! Without any side-effects now for a whole year.

 

So 'megadosing madness' within the right context is the most reasonable option, compared to the ineffectiveness and many side-effects of pharmaceuticals. I just maintain to go slow with increasing doses to catch an always possible side-effect due to different biochemical individuality early on.
 


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#25 Nate-2004

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 02:38 PM

I'll never understand megadosing madness.  More isn't always better!

 

I've seen some interesting research on ultra high dose IV Vitamin-C for specific disease therapies, and the USDA recommendation for Vitamin-D (400IU) is around one tenth apparent optimal, but other than this I've not seen much well researched and documented evidence for megadosing anything else.  

 

Vitamin-A has some real horror stories associated with it.  Accutane (a derivative of Vitamin-A) is notorious for persistent side effects and devastating complications.  Google "Accutane horror stories" for more on this.  

 

We all live and learn.  I'm old enough to prefer not learning things the hard way anymore.  

 

I agree on vitamin A but still, some people have trouble getting enough due to a polymorphism, but they can still get too much, 25,000 IU is way too much.

 

The USDA and FDA are far behind on what is considered therapeutic or needed as far as vitamin D is concerned. The USDA still thinks high carb low fat is the way to go despite an epidemic of obesity and diabetes and a scandal involving biased studies funded by the sugar industry. A lot of people are ill informed about this or just haven't bothered to keep up. There is a ton of emerging evidence that 400 IU is far below what may be needed in a lot of people, especially people who don't go outside much, have a polymorphism that impacts vitamin D processing, or live in the northern parts of the world. The upper limit on vitamin D in terms of what can be toxic or cause problems with calcium levels is beyond 10,000 IU and new studies are showing that 8000 IU is beneficial. Keeping levels around 40ng/ml is ideal.

 

References:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5541280/

 

https://www.health.h...l-2016121910893

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28652922

 

http://www.newswise....-is-far-too-low

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28475473

 

https://www.nature.c...1430-017-0064-z

 

A lot of people who take vitamin D don't realize that it's fat soluble which means they need fats included to absorb it:

 

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...-kids-1.3853270

 

http://www.exeter.ac..._405559_en.html

 

http://www.jaad.org/...2183-7/fulltext

 

Also Rhonda Patrick references some other sources in this video:

 

 

 


References:
1. Holick, M. F. High prevalence of vitamin D inadequacy and implications for health. Mayo Clinic proceedings. Mayo Clinic 81, 353-373, doi:10.4065/81.3.353 (2006).
2. MacLaughlin, J. & Holick, M. F. Aging decreases the capacity of human skin to produce vitamin D3. The Journal of clinical investigation 76, 1536-1538, doi:10.1172/JCI112134 (1985).
3. Wortsman, J., Matsuoka, L. Y., Chen, T. C., Lu, Z. & Holick, M. F. Decreased bioavailability of vitamin D in obesity. The American journal of clinical nutrition 72, 690-693 (2000).
4. Kennel, K. A., Drake, M. T. & Hurley, D. L. Vitamin D deficiency in adults: when to test and how to treat. Mayo Clinic proceedings. Mayo Clinic 85, 752-757; quiz 757-758, doi:10.4065/mcp.2010.0138 (2010).
Health, N. I. o.    (ed Office of Dietary Supplements) (2011).
5. Vieth, R. Vitamin D supplementation, 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations, and safety. The American journal of clinical nutrition 69, 842-856 (1999).
6. Outila, T. A., Mattila, P. H., Piironen, V. I. & Lamberg-Allardt, C. J. Bioavailability of vitamin D from wild edible mushrooms (Cantharellus tubaeformis) as measured with a human bioassay. The American journal of clinical nutrition 69, 95-98 (1999).
7. Tangpricha, V. et al. Fortification of orange juice with vitamin D: a novel approach for enhancing vitamin D nutritional health. The American journal of clinical nutrition 77, 1478-1483 (2003).
8. Holick, M. F. & Chen, T. C. Vitamin D deficiency: a worldwide problem with health consequences. The American journal of clinical nutrition 87, 1080S-1086S (2008).
9. Richards, J. B. et al. Higher serum vitamin D concentrations are associated with longer leukocyte telomere length in women. The American journal of clinical nutrition 86, 1420-1425 (2007).
10. Liu, J. J. et al. Plasma vitamin D biomarkers and leukocyte telomere length. American journal of epidemiology 177, 1411-1417, doi:10.1093/aje/kws435 (2013).
11. Houben, J. M., Moonen, H. J., van Schooten, F. J. & Hageman, G. J. Telomere length assessment: biomarker of chronic oxidative stress? Free radical biology & medicine 44, 235-246, doi:10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2007.10.001 (2008).
12. Tuohimaa, P. Vitamin D and aging. The Journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology 114, 78-84 (2009).
13. Keisala, T. et al. Premature aging in vitamin D receptor mutant mice. The Journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology 115, 91-97, doi:10.1016/j.jsbmb.2009.03.007 (2009).
14. Smit, E. et al. The effect of vitamin D and frailty on mortality among non-institutionalized US older adults. European journal of clinical nutrition 66, 1024-1028, doi:10.1038/ejcn.2012.67 (2012).
15. Bull, C. & Fenech, M. Genome-health nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics: nutritional requirements or ‘nutriomes’ for chromosomal stability and telomere maintenance at the individual level. The Proceedings of the Nutrition Society 67, 146-156, doi:10.1017/S0029665108006988 (2008).

 


Edited by Nate-2004, 29 January 2018 - 02:39 PM.

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#26 baccheion

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:40 AM

I never saw this till now and I'm sure it's already been said, but say goodbye to your liver with that kind of regimen. K2 and A do some nasty things in excess. Unless you have a tough time converting beta carotene from leafy greens to A, like I do, don't bother with taking A (assuming you get your leafy greens which you should if you're into longevity). Even then, take it in low doses only every other day (5,000 IU or less). K2 also should be taken sparingly, it is not good for the liver. Leafy greens like lettuce has a lot of K2.

D is always good in modern times, but only up to about 10,000 IU.

E should be limited too and only in the mixed tocopherol form with plenty of gamma tocopherol, otherwise eat plenty of nuts which has both forms.

E and other antioxidants should really be timed far from workouts (2 to 4 hours after a workout at least), breaks should be taken and always try to take them around the time you eat any fats like PUFAs. Again, mixing in ground nuts like pecans or walnuts, or macadamias (if you can afford them) with food can be enough. They have a good ratio of PUFAs.

What are the negative effects of K2 in excess? What about the new amounts mentioned later in this thread (50,000 IU D3 and 200,000 IU retinyl palmitate)?

I'll never understand megadosing madness. More isn't always better!

I've seen some interesting research on ultra high dose IV Vitamin-C for specific disease therapies, and the USDA recommendation for Vitamin-D (400IU) is around one tenth apparent optimal, but other than this I've not seen much well researched and documented evidence for megadosing anything else.

Vitamin-A has some real horror stories associated with it. Accutane (a derivative of Vitamin-A) is notorious for persistent side effects and devastating complications. Google "Accutane horror stories" for more on this.

We all live and learn. I'm old enough to prefer not learning things the hard way anymore.

I agree on vitamin A but still, some people have trouble getting enough due to a polymorphism, but they can still get too much, 25,000 IU is way too much.

The USDA and FDA are far behind on what is considered therapeutic or needed as far as vitamin D is concerned. The USDA still thinks high carb low fat is the way to go despite an epidemic of obesity and diabetes and a scandal involving biased studies funded by the sugar industry. A lot of people are ill informed about this or just haven't bothered to keep up. There is a ton of emerging evidence that 400 IU is far below what may be needed in a lot of people, especially people who don't go outside much, have a polymorphism that impacts vitamin D processing, or live in the northern parts of the world. The upper limit on vitamin D in terms of what can be toxic or cause problems with calcium levels is beyond 10,000 IU and new studies are showing that 8000 IU is beneficial. Keeping levels around 40ng/ml is ideal.

References:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5541280/

https://www.health.h...l-2016121910893

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28652922

http://www.newswise....-is-far-too-low

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28475473

https://www.nature.c...1430-017-0064-z

A lot of people who take vitamin D don't realize that it's fat soluble which means they need fats included to absorb it:

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...-kids-1.3853270

http://www.exeter.ac..._405559_en.html

http://www.jaad.org/...2183-7/fulltext

Also Rhonda Patrick references some other sources in this video:

https://youtu.be/uc815fQn8iY

References:
1. Holick, M. F. High prevalence of vitamin D inadequacy and implications for health. Mayo Clinic proceedings. Mayo Clinic 81, 353-373, doi:10.4065/81.3.353 (2006).
2. MacLaughlin, J. & Holick, M. F. Aging decreases the capacity of human skin to produce vitamin D3. The Journal of clinical investigation 76, 1536-1538, doi:10.1172/JCI112134 (1985).
3. Wortsman, J., Matsuoka, L. Y., Chen, T. C., Lu, Z. & Holick, M. F. Decreased bioavailability of vitamin D in obesity. The American journal of clinical nutrition 72, 690-693 (2000).
4. Kennel, K. A., Drake, M. T. & Hurley, D. L. Vitamin D deficiency in adults: when to test and how to treat. Mayo Clinic proceedings. Mayo Clinic 85, 752-757; quiz 757-758, doi:10.4065/mcp.2010.0138 (2010).
Health, N. I. o. (ed Office of Dietary Supplements) (2011).
5. Vieth, R. Vitamin D supplementation, 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations, and safety. The American journal of clinical nutrition 69, 842-856 (1999).
6. Outila, T. A., Mattila, P. H., Piironen, V. I. & Lamberg-Allardt, C. J. Bioavailability of vitamin D from wild edible mushrooms (Cantharellus tubaeformis) as measured with a human bioassay. The American journal of clinical nutrition 69, 95-98 (1999).
7. Tangpricha, V. et al. Fortification of orange juice with vitamin D: a novel approach for enhancing vitamin D nutritional health. The American journal of clinical nutrition 77, 1478-1483 (2003).
8. Holick, M. F. & Chen, T. C. Vitamin D deficiency: a worldwide problem with health consequences. The American journal of clinical nutrition 87, 1080S-1086S (2008).
9. Richards, J. B. et al. Higher serum vitamin D concentrations are associated with longer leukocyte telomere length in women. The American journal of clinical nutrition 86, 1420-1425 (2007).
10. Liu, J. J. et al. Plasma vitamin D biomarkers and leukocyte telomere length. American journal of epidemiology 177, 1411-1417, doi:10.1093/aje/kws435 (2013).
11. Houben, J. M., Moonen, H. J., van Schooten, F. J. & Hageman, G. J. Telomere length assessment: biomarker of chronic oxidative stress? Free radical biology & medicine 44, 235-246, doi:10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2007.10.001 (2008).
12. Tuohimaa, P. Vitamin D and aging. The Journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology 114, 78-84 (2009).
13. Keisala, T. et al. Premature aging in vitamin D receptor mutant mice. The Journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology 115, 91-97, doi:10.1016/j.jsbmb.2009.03.007 (2009).
14. Smit, E. et al. The effect of vitamin D and frailty on mortality among non-institutionalized US older adults. European journal of clinical nutrition 66, 1024-1028, doi:10.1038/ejcn.2012.67 (2012).
15. Bull, C. & Fenech, M. Genome-health nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics: nutritional requirements or ‘nutriomes’ for chromosomal stability and telomere maintenance at the individual level. The Proceedings of the Nutrition Society 67, 146-156, doi:10.1017/S0029665108006988 (2008).

My current megadose aside, the paper cited when recommending 400 IU vitamin D suggested a minimum/target serum level (100 nmol/L or 40ng/mL) and IU amounts required to get some percentage of the population there.

It's often recommended to not consume more than 3000 IU preformed vitamin A, but I say it's better to observe the ratio of 1000+ IU D3 : 4000 IU retinyl palmitate.

Edited by baccheion, 30 January 2018 - 04:13 AM.


#27 Nate-2004

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:48 PM

I was told that K2 in excess can cause liver problems by a doctor, so having fact checked via Google I'm not finding much to support her claim though. Rhonda Patrick also say she takes K2 but sparingly, which lead me to believe she is also aware of something she didn't elaborate on. She gets a lot of leafy greens though and so do I. K1 is in abundance in romaine lettuce, spinach and other greens that I get plenty of in my smoothies on an almost daily basis. I also eat a lot of eggs which have K2.

 

As far as D goes, it's really probably going to depend on bioavailability. In whole milk they add D2, not D3 and it's far more bioavailable as D3. Whole milk has fats which help D absorb. The only water soluble vitamins that I am aware of are the B varieties, everything else is lipid soluble and will absorb well with fats. This is why walnuts and pecans make a really good source of gamma tocopherol (24mg/100g and 28mg/100 for walnuts), they're abundant in monounsaturated fats which lead to better absorption. Grind these up in your smoothies for better taste, they're otherwise pretty dry to eat by themselves.  It's genuinely better to get these vitamins from food sources because of bioavailability and because it's cheaper.

 

You can balance out the gamma with alpha by adding almonds, but almonds have higher omega 6 ratios as far as PUFAs go so be careful there. The E should offset most of anything bad with that though.


Edited by Nate-2004, 30 January 2018 - 03:51 PM.

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#28 Believer

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 05:11 PM

I know the vitamin K complex I am taking makes me more prone to bleeding. Completely counter-intuitive but I have never been so prone to bleeding as I am now. And this is while I have temporarily ceased taking vitamin E and A.

On the other hand, the bleeding seems to stop reasonably soon so clearly it does close.

An example of my increased tendency for bleeding is on my foot where all of a sudden old wounds have opened up with thin blood running out. I thought to myself what the hell was going on because I didn't even touch these wounds but shortly after it had ceased to bleed. I also have experienced bleeding from my gums while taking the vitamin K and while I do not brush my teeth. I never bleed from my gums otherwise.

There have been many users of vitamin K reporting an increased tendency for nose bleeds, which I have not personally experienced yet.

 

How ironic that the vitamin which is necessary for blood clotting and which is named after the Danish word for coagulation actually may have anticoagulation and blood thinning effects.

 

Edit: I have also taken inositol for two days, which I assume may be blood thinning.


Edited by Believer, 30 January 2018 - 05:22 PM.

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#29 baccheion

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 09:24 PM

I was told that K2 in excess can cause liver problems by a doctor, so having fact checked via Google I'm not finding much to support her claim though. Rhonda Patrick also say she takes K2 but sparingly, which lead me to believe she is also aware of something she didn't elaborate on. She gets a lot of leafy greens though and so do I. K1 is in abundance in romaine lettuce, spinach and other greens that I get plenty of in my smoothies on an almost daily basis. I also eat a lot of eggs which have K2.

As far as D goes, it's really probably going to depend on bioavailability. In whole milk they add D2, not D3 and it's far more bioavailable as D3. Whole milk has fats which help D absorb. The only water soluble vitamins that I am aware of are the B varieties, everything else is lipid soluble and will absorb well with fats. This is why walnuts and pecans make a really good source of gamma tocopherol (24mg/100g and 28mg/100 for walnuts), they're abundant in monounsaturated fats which lead to better absorption. Grind these up in your smoothies for better taste, they're otherwise pretty dry to eat by themselves. It's genuinely better to get these vitamins from food sources because of bioavailability and because it's cheaper.

You can balance out the gamma with alpha by adding almonds, but almonds have higher omega 6 ratios as far as PUFAs go so be careful there. The E should offset most of anything bad with that though.

There isn't any known upper limit to vitamin K2 MK-4.

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#30 Darryl

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 10:04 PM

Why on earth you would want to take that much preformed Vitamin E???

 

Miller et al, 2005. Meta-analysis: high-dosage vitamin E supplementation may increase all-cause mortalityAnnals of internal medicine142(1), pp.37-46.

9 of 11 trials testing high-dosage vitamin E (≥400 IU/d) showed increased risk (risk difference > 0) for all-cause mortality in comparisons of vitamin E versus control. The pooled all-cause mortality risk difference in high-dosage vitamin E trials was 39 per 10 000 persons (95% CI, 3 to 74 per 10 000 persons; P = 0.035).  

 

Yes, there have been subsequent meta-analyses that aggregated high and low dose vitamin E and found no effect.

 

Bear in mind, no intervention with well-absorbed direct antioxidants (eg, C, E, carotenes) has increased lifespan in a mammalian model, at least since the era of calorie matched interventions and controls. The free-radical theory of aging is dead. There's still possibly a benefit for hormetins (see NIA ITP results with NDGA and Protandim in male mice), many of which have either antioxidant or prooxidant activity in vitro, but no vitamins fall in this category.

 


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