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Immortality through cloning

immortality cloning

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#1 Cloned

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 04:08 PM


Huston, we have a problem - humans are mortal. 

Since ancient times, alchemists have tried to find a drink of immortality - unsuccessfully.

Now we know why - our genetic mechanism is set up to kill us after we manage to make offsprings. This make sense in a light of evolution:

nature needs flexibility, which can only be achieved by constantly creating new genetic combinations.

It was an immutable truth until we got the ability to manipulate genomics and the birth process. Have you heard of 'Three-parent babies' ?

 

The next step is human cloning. We will be able to clone ourselves so that we can live as many lives as we want. Hundreds, thousands of times.

My Project Idea is to create a full personality backup.  I will talk about this in the next article.


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#2 ryukenden

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 04:47 PM

However cloned individuals aren't you.


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#3 ceridwen

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:00 AM

No more you than an identical twin

#4 ryukenden

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 02:00 AM

No more you than an identical twin


Yes. Identical twin is also not you.
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#5 Cloned

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:00 PM

We should start from the beginning. Is it technically possible to clone humans?

The news that researchers have used cloning to make human embryos for the purpose of producing stem cells may have some people wondering if it would ever be possible to clone a person. Although it would be unethical, experts say it is likely biologically possible to clone a human being.

 

I think we all agree with that. It is possible. But what about personality? Let's google it:

 

Clones would be less alike than these identical twins because they developed in different environments before birth. But as we can see, having the same genes definitely would make clones more similar in terms of personality, IQ, and lots of other traits.

 

Now we can talk about the concept of "You". What does ir mean "cloned individuals aren't you" ? How can we determine ourselves? 

1. DNA code.

2. Our memories.

3. Other people memories.
4. Our legal status.

Anything else? 



#6 ceridwen

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:07 PM

The reason cloning humans is unethical is because when they cloned Dolly the sheep she was born with old telomeres so it was decided that cloning would shorten the lifespan and that would be unethical. I read this in the New Scientist but I'm sorry I don't have a link to this. Since then they might have revised their opinion

#7 Cloned

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:35 PM

http://www.telegraph...clude-studying/

 

Dolly the sheep was as healthy as a normal ewe, scientists conclude after studying bones 

A new radiographic assessment of her skeleton by experts the universities of Nottingham and Glasgow found that she had no more signs of ageing than any other sheep of a similar age.

The team also looked at her offspring Bonnie, as well as two other cloned sheep, Megan and Morag, and found none of them showed any signs of unusual arthritis.
Sandra Corr, professor of small animal orthopaedic surgery at Glasgow University, said: “We found that the prevalence and distribution of radiographic osteoarthritis was similar to that observed in naturally conceived sheep, and our healthy aged cloned sheep.
“As a result we conclude that the original concerns that cloning had caused early-onset osteoarthritis in Dolly were unfounded.”

 

 


#8 ryukenden

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:36 PM

We should start from the beginning. Is it technically possible to clone humans?

The news that researchers have used cloning to make human embryos for the purpose of producing stem cells may have some people wondering if it would ever be possible to clone a person. Although it would be unethical, experts say it is likely biologically possible to clone a human being.

 

I think we all agree with that. It is possible. But what about personality? Let's google it:

 

Clones would be less alike than these identical twins because they developed in different environments before birth. But as we can see, having the same genes definitely would make clones more similar in terms of personality, IQ, and lots of other traits.

 

Now we can talk about the concept of "You". What does ir mean "cloned individuals aren't you" ? How can we determine ourselves? 

1. DNA code.

2. Our memories.

3. Other people memories.
4. Our legal status.

Anything else? 

 

Mainly common sense, I suppose. Would you regard clone of your mom as your mom? Or would you allow your own clone to have sex with your wife?

 

One other scenario is when hypothetically your clone is somehow influenced to end your life, would you kill yourself or the clone?


Edited by ryukenden, 03 January 2018 - 03:41 PM.


#9 Cloned

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:40 PM

ryukenden

Would you regard clone of your mom as your mom? Or would you allow your own clone to have sex with your wife?

 

-----------------------------------------------
Your questions indicate misunderstanding of the situation.

Cloning only allowed after person's death. This is the main moment, because information is an essential part of identity formation. Let's make an experiment:

How do you know, who you are?


Edited by Cloned, 03 January 2018 - 07:42 PM.


#10 ceridwen

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:56 PM

Anyway there was some sort of mistake made where for a brief time scientists thought she was older and this coincided with the cloning of humans becoming unethical. I'd be pleased if this was a mistake

#11 Cloned

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:59 PM

I'd be pleased if this was a mistake

 

 It actually doesn't matter. Besides cattle and sheep, other mammals that have been cloned from somatic cells include: cat, deer,dog, horse, mule, ox, rabbit and rat. In addition, a rhesus monkey has been cloned by embryo splitting.   

There are three different types of artificial cloning: gene cloning, reproductive cloning and therapeutic cloning.
Gene cloning produces copies of genes or segments of DNA. Reproductive cloning produces copies of whole animals. Therapeutic cloning produces embryonic stem cells for experiments aimed at creating tissues to replace injured or diseased tissues.
From a technical perspective, cloning humans and other primates is more difficult than in other mammals. One reason is that two proteins essential to cell division, known as spindle proteins, are located very close to the chromosomes in primate eggs. Consequently, removal of the egg's nucleus to make room for the donor nucleus also removes the spindle proteins, interfering with cell division. In other mammals, such as cats, rabbits and mice, the two spindle proteins are spread throughout the egg. So, removal of the egg's nucleus does not result in loss of spindle proteins. In addition, some dyes and the ultraviolet light used to remove the egg's nucleus can damage the primate cell and prevent it from growing.

 

 

Of course, there are some technical problems that need to be overcome. But nobody said it is impossible.

Therefore, lets concentrate on other aspects.
While living out lives, we develop, we learn, then our cells stop dividing and we grow old - we never the same. Cloning is as natural as life itself.
All we need is to preserve our memories, history and legal status, which in a nutshell is nothing but information.

Information is timeless, and we can exploit that property. 
My idea is to make a backup of all this and wait till cloning becomes a reality. Looks easy, but it's not.



#12 ryukenden

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:33 AM

ryukenden
Would you regard clone of your mom as your mom? Or would you allow your own clone to have sex with your wife?

-----------------------------------------------
Your questions indicate misunderstanding of the situation.
Cloning only allowed after person's death. This is the main moment, because information is an essential part of identity formation. Let's make an experiment:
How do you know, who you are?

Ok. No problem in that case too. After YOU died, your clone lives. I got it. That means your clone lives on but not YOU.

#13 Cloned

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:58 AM

I got it. That means your clone lives on but not YOU. 

 

So you have the same genetics, the same name and legal status, you know who you are and others knows the same. You live in your house with your family.
And you still not you ? What's missing?


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#14 jdlancaster519

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 12:15 PM

You're consciousness is gone. And the clone would still not be you. The environment affects you, plus memories, etc. Your brain cells would not be developed and oriented the same. Then you have epigenetics... You would not be the same matter in the same quantum state occupying the same space time... Now could you grow a clone for parts without a brain?...maybe.... Not sure if it would be ethical.

#15 Cloned

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 03:15 PM

You're consciousness is gone. 

 

You mean, clones will be unconscious? That's ridiculous.

The environment affects you

 

It affect us every day, every second. What's wrong with that? People get fat, they change their worldview - and no one disputes the identity.

you would not be the same matter in the same quantum state occupying the same space time

 

Neither you are the same as you've been 20 or 30 years ago.

Now could you grow a clone for parts without a brain?

 

You will live your entire life - from a childhood to the old age - as a complete set. I don't understand what do you mean "without a brain".


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#16 ryukenden

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:53 PM

I got it. That means your clone lives on but not YOU.

So you have the same genetics, the same name and legal status, you know who you are and others knows the same. You live in your house with your family.
And you still not you ? What's missing?

Ok. Hypothetically speaking, you lost your mom and there comes exact clone of your mom. Would you 100% accept the clone as your mom.

#17 Cloned

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:15 PM

There is no question about it. But the situation you described will not happen anyway. You mom will be born again as a tiny child. Sounds like a paradox, but your mom will be much younger than you. Isn't that funtastic? 

She will not be a clone, but a real person - one and only. As I mentioned before, no more than one person at the same space-time is allowed.

 

Are you ready to start backing up your personality and live forever?


Edited by Cloned, 04 January 2018 - 11:16 PM.


#18 ryukenden

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:25 AM

There is no question about it. But the situation you described will not happen anyway. You mom will be born again as a tiny child. Sounds like a paradox, but your mom will be much younger than you. Isn't that funtastic?
She will not be a clone, but a real person - one and only. As I mentioned before, no more than one person at the same space-time is allowed.

Are you ready to start backing up your personality and live forever?


Who said you could not have your clone before you died? Theoretically you could have millions of your own clone

#19 Cloned

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:32 PM

 Theoretically you could have millions of your own clone

 

Theoretically, you could have millions of children. However, this does not happen. Human cloning will be costly and most people will not be able to afford it.

Another reason is the lack of necessity. There is no reason to create more than one instance of yourself, but it can happen. Someone else can steal your stem cells and clone you, especially if you are a celebrity.
In this case, the scenario is as follows:

Legally cloned person must have a secret code that allows authorities to recognize the original. Other clones will be treated as completely separate persons without any rights to your property or legal obligations. 

----------------------------------------------------

Are all questions answered? May we start discussing organizational issues?

 


Edited by Cloned, 05 January 2018 - 10:33 PM.


#20 ryukenden

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 12:24 AM

Theoretically you could have millions of your own clone

Theoretically, you could have millions of children. However, this does not happen. Human cloning will be costly and most people will not be able to afford it.
Another reason is the lack of necessity. There is no reason to create more than one instance of yourself, but it can happen. Someone else can steal your stem cells and clone you, especially if you are a celebrity.
In this case, the scenario is as follows:
Legally cloned person must have a secret code that allows authorities to recognize the original. Other clones will be treated as completely separate persons without any rights to your property or legal obligations.
----------------------------------------------------
Are all questions answered? May we start discussing organizational issues?
What I am saying is that you can clone (technically) millions of your clone at the same time while you are still alive. We don't need to argue necessity in this scenario as I am saying ".technically". Will you say those millions are you when you're still alive? They are just your copies and NOT you. The same applies to any clone whether you are alive or dead. They are just your copy or copies.

Edited by ryukenden, 06 January 2018 - 12:25 AM.


#21 Cloned

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 02:19 PM

What I am saying is that you can clone (technically) millions of your clone at the same time while you are still alive. 

 

I'm talking about the necessary conditions that will lead to true immortality. Any deviations can destroy the information bubble, known as "YOU".

Personality is not fixed, it consists of variables. We can exploit this. Try to rethink your attitude, ryukenden. 

 

What are the challenges we may encounter on the way to the transfer of the person? This is an issue I want to talk about.
1. How to save and pass in a safe way the required information?

 



#22 pamojja

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 02:42 PM

What are the challenges we may encounter on the way to the transfer of the person?

 
I'm actually surprised that this idea of cloning is so reminiscent of the idea of past and future lifes in Buddhism. Though Buddhists, by understanding that we usually always make the same mistakes as in past lifes, with their constant up and downs, would rather make an end to that kind of eternities. As the Dalai Lama once answered on being asked, what is reborn if not the Self: bad habits.
 

Personality is not fixed, it consists of variables. We can exploit this. Try to rethink your attitude, ryukenden.

 

Also in Buddhism Personality is just a mental representation arising for something not independent of momentarily arising sensations, feelings, perceptions, emotions and consciousnesses. Therefore considered empty of an inherently independent self.

 

 

PS: sorry for going that far off-topic. Couldn't help it. Just ignore me and continue on.


Edited by pamojja, 06 January 2018 - 02:48 PM.


#23 ryukenden

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:37 PM

What I am saying is that you can clone (technically) millions of your clone at the same time while you are still alive.

I'm talking about the necessary conditions that will lead to true immortality. Any deviations can destroy the information bubble, known as "YOU".
Personality is not fixed, it consists of variables. We can exploit this. Try to rethink your attitude, ryukenden.

What are the challenges we may encounter on the way to the transfer of the person? This is an issue I want to talk about.
1. How to save and pass in a safe way the required information?

No, you don't get it that clones are your copies and NOT you.

#24 Cloned

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 06:21 PM

Excellent, pamojja. It turns out we have different religion backgrounds which causes a discrepancies in our mutual understanding. Thanks for clearing things out.

I started a topic http://www.longecity...r-not-the-same/

This will route philosophy where it belongs, at the same time allows us to consider the technical parts of the project.

 

1. How to save and pass in a safe way the required information?

The easiest way is to put it in a cloud. Easiest, but not safest. Fortunately, we have a new technology - a blockchain, an amazing database that's safe, free and reliable.

Anybody out here has an experience in blockchain technology?


Edited by Cloned, 06 January 2018 - 06:23 PM.






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