26 replies to this topic

[MacWanted]

Hi all,

 

Whenever I take maca or tribulus or mucuna pruniens or muira puama, even in very small dose. My sleep is completly disturbed.

 

Does anyone know the root cause of this? Excess dopamine or noradrelanine? How to conteract this?

 

Your toughts are welcome.

[Believer]

Often it's the 5ht2a receptor. It causes you to sleep less and the sleep you do get is of poor quality.

[MacWanted]

But I am not depressed at all....

[Jiminy Glick]

Yeah I know they create dopamine, I am not sure about noradrelanine. You are taking those to be alert and motivated so you need something to relax to counteract it after dinner and before bed. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 13 February 2018 - 05:16 PM.

[Believer]

The 5ht2a receptor can produce depression, anxiety, irritability, chronic fatigue and a whole host of other issues but the sleep issues it produces are independent of these things meaning they do not have to be comorbid although often they are.

 

Speaking from my own personal experience it's often that receptor. I've not found a single herb that produces adrenaline or dopamine-related sleep dysfunction.

 

With too much dopamine it tends to show itself with an inability to fall asleep but less issues with actually sleeping well.

With noradrenaline it seems to be the same, agitation and restlessness.

[Nate-2004]

I'd honestly avoid those, you're better off just optimizing the natural production of dopamine via BDNF stimulating exercise and sauna use along with lithium orotate, EGCG and b6.

 

Find out what COMT polymorphism you have, if it's A/A then taking L-Dopa is not going to be helpful and is likely why you have the issue.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 13 February 2018 - 08:38 PM.

[Jiminy Glick]

I'd honestly avoid those, you're better off just optimizing the natural production of dopamine via BDNF stimulating exercise and sauna use along with lithium orotate, EGCG and b6.

 

Find out what COMT polymorphism you have, if it's A/A then taking L-Dopa is not going to be helpful and is likely why you have the issue.

 

Or perhaps just taking phenylalanine and/or some l-theanine?

[Nate-2004]

No. L-theanine, like glycine, might help a little with sleep quality for some people, outside that it's not going to help him get to sleep. Phenylalanine, if it does anything, will just cause the same problem.

 

Getting to sleep is the issue.  I'm not through with it, but this is my guide on getting to sleep. Use it.

Edited by Nate-2004, 13 February 2018 - 10:29 PM.

[Jiminy Glick]

No. L-theanine, like glycine, might help a little with sleep quality for some people, outside that it's not going to help him get to sleep. Phenylalanine, if it does anything, will just cause the same problem.

 

Getting to sleep is the issue.  I'm not through with it, but this is my guide on getting to sleep. Use it.

 

No I mean phenylalanine and l-theanine for replacing his dopamine supplements. Perhaps he should still take stuff to increase his dopamine if he wants but then he would also need to take stuff to make him relax later on in the day. 

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 14 February 2018 - 02:19 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I wasn't aware that L-theanine had any effect on dopamine. Interesting. I have always seen it as slightly nootropic, an anxiolytic and a sleep quality aid.

[MacWanted]

L-theanine has the opposite effect on me. Does not relax me at all and keep me awake.

[Nate-2004]

Yeah I see that some people have the opposite reaction to it and it may be a baseline dopamine issue, or serotonin levels. Hard to say really, it's supposed to be a GABA agonist but weakly so.

 

I have heard that people who experience the opposite effect from l-theanine can benefit from 5-htp for sleep. It's the opposite for me, I get insomnia from 5-htp.

Edited by Nate-2004, 14 February 2018 - 03:31 PM.

[JimJinNJ]

Nate_2004--

I'm new to Longecity and just looking around.  Your sleep guide is quite good.  I've studied this issue a lot in efforts to improve my own sleep.

If you are looking to add to it, here a couple of things that have helped me (I'm too lazy right now to provide citations by can if anyone needs them).

1.  the Ayurvedic tonic/adaptogen, ashwaganda, has helped my sleep.  two 400 mg caps at bedtime.  this root powder has been found to reduce cortisol.  bodybuilders love it because cortisol destroys testosterone.  In my case I surmise it reduced my too early awakening. Cortisol is what your body uses to wake you up.  cortisol also is generally bad for you unless you're having to fight off a enemy, run from a lion etc.  very safe, used for 3k years in India, China for generally everything.

2.  over last year I had a sleep study (no apnea, no throat issues).  so psychiatrist suggested gabapentin at bedtime. it has helped a lot.  there is is research supporting its use for sleep (it is normally used for neuropathy).  the research he quoted and I've found online suggests it actually improved stage 3 (deepest) sleep.  it works on GABA system but is not same action as benzo's as I understand it.

3.  similar to some of your ideas, I suggest people make a list of tomorrow's things to do.  do this right before your nightly wind down routine.  there is some relief in knowing the "worry" stuff is slated for action and I won't forget it.  there is an interesting phenomenon in psychology call the "Zeigarnik effect."  People will remember (maybe be haunted by) uncompleted tasks.  writing them down is one way to put them to bed--so to speak.

 

[Nate-2004]

Point 3 is definitely the strongest. I will be adding that.

 

For the most part I'm trying to de-emphasize the need for any supplements to sleep and any mention of supplements are those that show some evidence for improving quality, rather than inducing sleep.  The amber glasses are actually a very strong sleep inducing method to use.

Edited by Nate-2004, 15 February 2018 - 03:52 PM.

[JimJinNJ]

fine point:  both ashwaganda and gabapentin are not sleep inducers--not sedative.  they improve quality of sleep by increasing stage 3 sleep and reducing early wakening.

[MacWanted]

To mention that I do not have issue to fall asleep but rather having a disturbed sleep.

 

I forgot to mention to I have whey protein but I try to avoid to take it late in the day.

[Nate-2004]

I have been looking into the ashwaganda and I plan on trying it out. 

 

Try following that sleep guide, it can help with sleep quality, Mac. Helps to keep sleep drive up by sticking with a sleep schedule where you are only trying to sleep during a specific time slot.

[Jiminy Glick]

Gabapentin isn't in the same category as kratom and ashwagandha. That is serious stuff. I would read into the possible negatives on that. 

I have been looking into the ashwaganda and I plan on trying it out. 

 

Try following that sleep guide, it can help with sleep quality, Mac. Helps to keep sleep drive up by sticking with a sleep schedule where you are only trying to sleep during a specific time slot.

 

Ashwagandha is good. It dramatically reduces stress and you can feel pressure decrease on breathing tension when taking it. I don't even weigh it out, I use about a teaspoon.

Edited by Jiminy Glick, 15 February 2018 - 06:25 PM.

[Believer]

Sleep issues have nothing to do with cortisol. Cause versus effect. People think cortisol causes stress or agitation, it does not. Cortisol is increased from stressors but actually has calming properties and increased cortisol may even make one feel good.

When you fast your cortisol skyrockets yet your sleep is only improved, if anything changes at all.

 

Among the things that improve sleep quality independent of whether you already have high or low activity of these receptors,

gaba-a and gaba-b activation both improve sleep quality and the ability to fall asleep.

5th2a also both increases sleep quality and the ability to fall asleep whereas activation increases the time it takes to fall asleep and decreases sleep quality.

 

Excessive thinking which prevents sleep (especially if theanine causes this effect in you) is probably from NMDA activation. All NMDA agonists appear to produce this effect. Excessive thinking is mainly an issue of too much glutamate activity.

Theanine is both a glutamate antagonist and glutamate agonist.

[dazed1]

3 causes for bad sleep.

 

1. Hormones

2. Underlying Inflammation

3. Bad diet/insulin - glucose issues

 

Excessive thinking is nothing more then a simple anxiety, mostly connected to point 2/3. Can vouch for ashwagandha, especially this one, it does contain 3 different parts of the herb, and they are in CO2 extract form, the best possible form to supplement with. It makes my very very stressed and nervous dad, to behave like the most calm person ever, really insane.

 

https://www.iherb.co...60-Caplets/3691

Edited by dazed1, 16 February 2018 - 03:31 AM.

[MacWanted]

Hi all,

 

it seems that we deviate from my initial topic which is that my sleep gets disrupted due to some herbs like maca, tribulus, ...

 

I do not have issues to fall asleep (in fact I start to sleep with few minutes if not seconds) and I do not have excessive thinking.

 

Forgot to mention that I have low libido and PE

Edited by MacWanted, 16 February 2018 - 10:09 AM.

[JimJinNJ]

re maca/tribulus--I'd just try a simple experiment.  stop taking it and see what happens to sleep.  go back and not what happens.  a few trials should start to give insight.

my knowledge of these two is that some people use them to increase testosterone--they don't from what I read but people report them to be libido enhances and energizers.

I guess I'm not surprised they interfere with sleep. 

 

re cortisol: it is part of the sleep process. 

@Believer--any cites re cortisol helping sleep?  also, read the guys issue: staying asleep.  cortisol can certainly play a role in that.

[Believer]

A cortisol deficiency can cause sleep dysfunction but cortisol in of itself doesn't do that. At this point it feels like people only want to regurgitate things they read online which clearly doesn't have anything to do with the issues and they have no reason to regurgitate these things because they don't even have anecdotal experiences of them working.

 

Noradrenaline, dopamine, serotonin and gaba all affect sleep considerably. Dopamine, noradrenaline and serotonin worsen sleep, except serotonin can both improve sleep and worsen it. Gaba improves the ability to fall asleep, stay asleep and have good sleep quality, gaba-a and gaba-b both. Gaba also decreases the need for sleep by improving sleep quality so even after less sleep you feel more rested.

There are also other neurotransmitters that affect sleep, obviously, but they do so mainly via these 4 neurotransmitters. If you want to you can even further reduce them down to fundamentally only 1 or 2 neurotransmitters.

 

The 5HT1A autoreceptor affects gaba release and thus can improve sleep. The 5HT2A receptor, whatever its mechanism is, decreases sleep quality in every way possible, so you wake up too early, you cannot fall asleep, and the sleep you do get is of poor quality.

 

Yes hormones can affect sleep, such as a deficiency in inhibitory, androgenic hormones, progesterone, estrogen, etc., but the deficiency needs to be severe and in the end all hormones act on hormone receptors to affect neurotransmitter release, activation and breakdown. Thus it makes much more sense to just focus on neurotransmitters.

[Rocket]

3 causes for bad sleep.

1. Hormones
2. Underlying Inflammation
3. Bad diet/insulin - glucose issues

Excessive thinking is nothing more then a simple anxiety, mostly connected to point 2/3. Can vouch for ashwagandha, especially this one, it does contain 3 different parts of the herb, and they are in CO2 extract form, the best possible form to supplement with. It makes my very very stressed and nervous dad, to behave like the most calm person ever, really insane.

https://www.iherb.co...60-Caplets/3691

Neurotransmitters is the issue with chronic insomniacs. Now if by hormones you mean trenbolone, then you're correct.

Insomnia is the craziest messed up thing a person can deal with... The inability to sleep is impossible for most people to fathom.

[dazed1]

 

3 causes for bad sleep.

1. Hormones
2. Underlying Inflammation
3. Bad diet/insulin - glucose issues

Excessive thinking is nothing more then a simple anxiety, mostly connected to point 2/3. Can vouch for ashwagandha, especially this one, it does contain 3 different parts of the herb, and they are in CO2 extract form, the best possible form to supplement with. It makes my very very stressed and nervous dad, to behave like the most calm person ever, really insane.

https://www.iherb.co...60-Caplets/3691

Neurotransmitters is the issue with chronic insomniacs. Now if by hormones you mean trenbolone, then you're correct.

Insomnia is the craziest messed up thing a person can deal with... The inability to sleep is impossible for most people to fathom.

 

 

Unstable glucose/insulin, causes wreck on sleeping, same goes for inflammation.

[Nate-2004]

 

 

3 causes for bad sleep.

1. Hormones
2. Underlying Inflammation
3. Bad diet/insulin - glucose issues

Excessive thinking is nothing more then a simple anxiety, mostly connected to point 2/3. Can vouch for ashwagandha, especially this one, it does contain 3 different parts of the herb, and they are in CO2 extract form, the best possible form to supplement with. It makes my very very stressed and nervous dad, to behave like the most calm person ever, really insane.

https://www.iherb.co...60-Caplets/3691

Neurotransmitters is the issue with chronic insomniacs. Now if by hormones you mean trenbolone, then you're correct.

Insomnia is the craziest messed up thing a person can deal with... The inability to sleep is impossible for most people to fathom.

 

 

Unstable glucose/insulin, causes wreck on sleeping, same goes for inflammation.

 

 

No, none of this. The main, or most common cause for bad sleep is poor sleep hygiene habits. These are the maladaptive habits people develop either in response to poor sleep or from the very start in childhood. These bad habits exacerbate the problem rather than solve it. We're also dealing with the modern world full of artificial lighting and technology. If you want to improve your sleep you should ensure you are following *all* the guidelines and techniques put forward by sleep researchers, experts and doctors. If you need help with getting on track, there's a website, sleepio.com that is based on these guidelines. It's a CBTi program worth paying for and will save you so much time on wasted experiments with supplements that do nothing to address the root issues.

 

Sure, eating healthy, exercise and addressing inflammation doesn't hurt and certainly helps, but first comes addressing the basics. The sleepio program begins with some education and sleep restriction therapy. It also provides a sleep journal to keep track of your progress.

Edited by Nate-2004, 17 February 2018 - 05:09 PM.

[Believer]

Neurotransmitters is the issue with chronic insomniacs. Now if by hormones you mean trenbolone, then you're correct.

Actually, estrogen deficiency (estrogen antagonists) cause severe sleep dysfunction as well. Estrogen deficiency in menopause as well as progesterone deficiency causes poor sleep, both in women and men but moreso in women.

In men, a deficiency in inhibitory androgens like androsterone, epiandrosterone, dehydrotestosterone, etc., can also cause sleep dysfunction due to lack of gaba-a activation. Finansteride messes with sleep due to lowering these inhibitory androgens.