23 replies to this topic

[Grandmaster]

Hello is there any alternative for l-theanine for removing anxiety caused by caffeine? For me large doses of vit. C with mag. citrate work but without loperamide that combo cause instant diarrhea and effects are inconsistent. I thought that part of that anxiety may be due to histamine intolerance but pure caffeine or guarana(methylxanthines) are mast cell stabilizers and i have read that caffeine itself acts like as antihistamine so that doesnt make sense. 

 

I tried l-theanine in various doses but always i felt stupid after it(lack of motivation, spaced out feeling , problem with longer sentences). 

 

Taurine also doesnt work well for me- i used it some time ago(large doses for few months) with coffee so i have big tolerance for it and its ineffective.

 

 

Since around a year i dont drink coffee, energy drinks or take pure caffeien pills since i feel terrible after them - i take only pure guarana powder or pills with extract.

 

TL;DR Caffeine is anxiogenic for me but i love its effects after anxiety vanishes, l theanine and taurine doesnt work. Looking for alternatives

[Galaxyshock]

Try cordyceps it contains adenosine analog which may balance out caffeine's stimulative/anxiogenic effects. Cordyceps itself is energizing.

[Grandmaster]

Try cordyceps it contains adenosine analog which may balance out caffeine's stimulative/anxiogenic effects. Cordyceps itself is energizing.

Any cordyceps or some specific type like sinensis or militaris?

[Galaxyshock]

Any cordyceps or some specific type like sinensis or militaris?

 

I've used Doctor's best ultra cordyceps with success. 2-4 caps.

 

You may also want to consider Yerba mate as caffeine source - it feels quite different.

[Grandmaster]

I've used Doctor's best ultra cordyceps with success. 2-4 caps.

 

You may also want to consider Yerba mate as caffeine source - it feels quite different.

Im usually very sleepy after yerba - not sure why. 

[John250]

Hello is there any alternative for l-theanine for removing anxiety caused by caffeine? For me large doses of vit. C with mag. citrate work but without loperamide that combo cause instant diarrhea and effects are inconsistent. I thought that part of that anxiety may be due to histamine intolerance but pure caffeine or guarana(methylxanthines) are mast cell stabilizers and i have read that caffeine itself acts like as antihistamine so that doesnt make sense.

I tried l-theanine in various doses but always i felt stupid after it(lack of motivation, spaced out feeling , problem with longer sentences).

Taurine also doesnt work well for me- i used it some time ago(large doses for few months) with coffee so i have big tolerance for it and its ineffective.


Since around a year i dont drink coffee, energy drinks or take pure caffeien pills since i feel terrible after them - i take only pure guarana powder or pills with extract.

TL;DR Caffeine is anxiogenic for me but i love its effects after anxiety vanishes, l theanine and taurine doesnt work. Looking for alternatives

Maybe try Teacrine.

https://www.amazon.c...n/dp/B01M7Q04J2

[Grandmaster]

Maybe try Teacrine.

https://www.amazon.c...n/dp/B01M7Q04J2

I tried it, at any dosage between 50-300mg range i feel nearly nothing and its very expensive since i have it in capusles form. 

 

I was thinking about taking something that would rise adenosine and at the same time taking caffeine(guarana). Adenosine levels build throughout the day (known as sleep pressure). So the higher levels of adenosine in the brain, the more likely an adenosine receptor will be bound by adenosine , rather than caffeine. 

I made experiments when i dosed caffeine or guarana late at night or evening - nice stimulation without much anxiety. Due to high adenosine levels? Low cortisol at night?
 

Edited by Grandmaster, 17 October 2018 - 05:09 PM.

[John250]

I tried it, at any dosage between 50-300mg range i feel nearly nothing and its very expensive since i have it in capusles form.

I was thinking about taking something that would rise adenosine and at the same time taking caffeine(guarana). Adenosine levels build throughout the day (known as sleep pressure). So the higher levels of adenosine in the brain, the more likely an adenosine receptor will be bound by adenosine , rather than caffeine.
I made experiments when i dosed caffeine or guarana late at night or evening - nice stimulation without much anxiety. Due to high adenosine levels? Low cortisol at night?

I never noticed anything from either unfortunately. I have the adenosine mutation. Supposedly the best method is to take a moderate dose of caffeine then fall asleep and wake up 20 minutes later and you feel refreshed all day but there’s no way I could do that.

[Grandmaster]

I never noticed anything from either unfortunately. I have the adenosine mutation. Supposedly the best method is to take a moderate dose of caffeine then fall asleep and wake up 20 minutes later and you feel refreshed all day but there’s no way I could do that.

I cant do that as well, minutes after taking caffeine form i feel dirty stimulation and slight anxiety and thats makes impossible for me to take a nap + i never take naps during the day otherwise i feel weird. 

[BioHacker=Life]

The answer is d-limonene it's an adenosine agonist so the opposite of caffeine. No different than using naloxone to counter the effects of opioids.

[John250]

The answer is d-limonene it's an adenosine agonist so the opposite of caffeine. No different than using naloxone to counter the effects of opioids.

Hmmm interesting. With this supplement benefit me? This is my mutation.

Overview:
rs73598374 linked to the gene ADA. Your genotype is CT, which is observed in 10% of all individuals reported.

Mechanism:

T allele causes less ADA activity due to an amino acid substitution ®.

The T (minor) allele is associated with:

35% lower levels of ADA. People with the T allele show a higher level of both circulating adenosine and adenosine inside cells ®.

Reduced conversion of adenosine to inosine , which serves as an antioxidant and stimulant. Only 5% of the alleles in the global population are T, so it's relatively rare. More adenosine translates into increased slow-wave sleep in individuals with the T allele ®.

Worsened performance on a test of attention among right-handed carriers ®.

Reduced attention and vigor when awake. Also, EEG alpha activity (8.5-12 Hz), sleepiness, fatigue, and α-amylase in saliva were enhanced ®.

Significantly higher deep sleep and EEG 0.75- to 1.5-Hz oscillations in non-REM sleep. When awake, attention and vigor were reduced. EEG alpha activity (8.5-12 Hz), sleepiness, fatigue, and Œ-amylase in saliva were enhanced ®.

Better sleep, but more fatigue in the day due to higher adenosine levels.

Lower telomerase activity ®, which will cause shorter telomeres.

A higher likelihood for males to live between 66-88 years, but a lower likelihood for men to live longer than 88 years ®. It’s believed that elevated cellular concentrations of adenosine reduce heart disease risk, as well as help during a stroke ®.

Higher rates of glycolysis, which may increase the number of metabolic calories and, in turn, reduce activation of Sirtuin genes ®.

rs73598374
Parent Gene: ADA
Importance: 5
Minor Allele: T = 5%
Major Allele: C = 95%
My Genotype: TC = 10%

[BioHacker=Life]

I never noticed anything from either unfortunately. I have the adenosine mutation. Supposedly the best method is to take a moderate dose of caffeine then fall asleep and wake up 20 minutes later and you feel refreshed all day but there’s no way I could do that.

 

Due to your mutation you may need a higher dose. I would try up to 500 mg of theacrine before ruling it out it works but everyones biochem is different and may require a higher dose.

[BioHacker=Life]

Hmmm interesting. With this supplement benefit me? This is my mutation.

Overview:
rs73598374 linked to the gene ADA. Your genotype is CT, which is observed in 10% of all individuals reported.

Mechanism:

T allele causes less ADA activity due to an amino acid substitution ®.

The T (minor) allele is associated with:

35% lower levels of ADA. People with the T allele show a higher level of both circulating adenosine and adenosine inside cells ®.

Reduced conversion of adenosine to inosine , which serves as an antioxidant and stimulant. Only 5% of the alleles in the global population are T, so it's relatively rare. More adenosine translates into increased slow-wave sleep in individuals with the T allele ®.

Worsened performance on a test of attention among right-handed carriers ®.

Reduced attention and vigor when awake. Also, EEG alpha activity (8.5-12 Hz), sleepiness, fatigue, and α-amylase in saliva were enhanced ®.

Significantly higher deep sleep and EEG 0.75- to 1.5-Hz oscillations in non-REM sleep. When awake, attention and vigor were reduced. EEG alpha activity (8.5-12 Hz), sleepiness, fatigue, and Œ-amylase in saliva were enhanced ®.

Better sleep, but more fatigue in the day due to higher adenosine levels.

Lower telomerase activity ®, which will cause shorter telomeres.

A higher likelihood for males to live between 66-88 years, but a lower likelihood for men to live longer than 88 years ®. It’s believed that elevated cellular concentrations of adenosine reduce heart disease risk, as well as help during a stroke ®.

Higher rates of glycolysis, which may increase the number of metabolic calories and, in turn, reduce activation of Sirtuin genes ®.

rs73598374
Parent Gene: ADA
Importance: 5
Minor Allele: T = 5%
Major Allele: C = 95%
My Genotype: TC = 10%

 

Caf is an adenosine antagonist so regular use causes upregulation of adenosine receptors not something you want long term but short term it may seem helpful. Using an agonist may downregulate your receptors making them less active and thus less responsive to your high adenosine levels. I would certainly try it in varying doses over a week or so and see how it effects you.

[John250]

Caf is an adenosine antagonist so regular use causes upregulation of adenosine receptors not something you want long term but short term it may seem helpful. Using an agonist may downregulate your receptors making them less active and thus less responsive to your high adenosine levels. I would certainly try it in varying doses over a week or so and see how it effects you.

Interesting I think I will give it a shot. What about supplementing with inosine? Or injectable Adenosine-5-monophosphate?

Edited by John250, 18 October 2018 - 04:44 PM.

[RYAN474]

To the OP, one thing that has helped me is Magtein. Magnesium Threonate. Took me some time to get the dosing right, but definitely cuts the anxiety from caffeine significantly (and adderall, or numerous other things that contribute to anxiety). Too much makes me more sleepy, but just the right amount takes the edge off. I take 1 capsule at night (NOW brand), and then about 1/4 capsule in AM and early afternoon.  

 

P.S. I was recently diagnosed with narcolepsy (without cataplexy). If caffeine didnt' give me so much anxiety, I would be using it regularly. Instead, adderall and modafinil keep me awake/alert and focused with much less anxiety. I am going to check into the various SNP's associated with adenosine, as you guys have noted in this thread. 

Edited by ryan474, 22 October 2018 - 10:33 PM.

[Grandmaster]

To the OP, one thing that has helped me is Magtein. Magnesium Threonate. Took me some time to get the dosing right, but definitely cuts the anxiety from caffeine significantly (and adderall, or numerous other things that contribute to anxiety). Too much makes me more sleepy, but just the right amount takes the edge off. I take 1 capsule at night (NOW brand), and then about 1/4 capsule in AM and early afternoon.  

 

P.S. I was recently diagnosed with narcolepsy (without cataplexy). If caffeine didnt' give me so much anxiety, I would be using it regularly. Instead, adderall and modafinil keep me awake/alert and focused with much less anxiety. I am going to check into the various SNP's associated with adenosine, as you guys have noted in this thread. 

I tried with mag. chloride, citrate, glycinate, carbonate, oxide etc and citrate seems to work but anxiety is still present. Taurate may works as well since taurine alone is added to energy drinks to make caffeine effects smoother. 

[Grandmaster]

Cant edit the post so i write the second one: i was chairman of election comission 2 days ago, we were counting votes, making protocols for 18 hours straight and i havet slept for 2 days. When i took large(for me i usually take max 50mg caffeine) guarana dose with 150mg caffeine i felt mood lift, energy without anxiety. That means that those effects were casued by high adenosine i had beacuse of lack of sleep? D-limonene could simulate those effects?

[Galaxyshock]

Wierd, I find guarana the most anxiogenic caffeine source. Almost feels like it only activates the stress circuits in the brain. Then there's kola nut which doesn't even feel like caffeine source, more of a mild euphoriant. Adenosine levels do raise in sleep debt. One way to counter negative cognitive effects of sleep deprivation is to use PDE-4 inhibitor.

[Grandmaster]

Wierd, I find guarana the most anxiogenic caffeine source. Almost feels like it only activates the stress circuits in the brain. Then there's kola nut which doesn't even feel like caffeine source, more of a mild euphoriant. Adenosine levels do raise in sleep debt. One way to counter negative cognitive effects of sleep deprivation is to use PDE-4 inhibitor.

I tried Kola nuts and inded it doesnt feel like caffeine source but in bad way - nearly no stimulation. What do you think about idea of stacking caffeine with adenosine source? Or maybe some caffeine analog? I tried theacrine but it made me sleepy and i felt no stimulation.

[gamesguru]

How do you respond to tea?  Japanese tea.

 

If you have not tried it in its authentic source before, I advise you please do.  The private message I sent you, the first source is what I'm most interested in.  It is the one that puts hair on your chest, in a non-caffeic way, due to the catechins just flowing en masse with theanine.  You can feel your blood flowing much more clearly, thoughts are relaxed and open, the whole experience would almost be described as psychedelic.

 

I mean try it, the first source.  You could have the totally opposite reaction, but that would be interesting in itself and help us understand more about you.

[Galaxyshock]

Madre Labs CafeCeps is great instant coffee with Cordyceps and Reishi which balance the stimulative effect of caffeine. Tastes nice and is fast to make.

[Grandmaster]

What about ornithine? "The subjects were all healthy office workers who ingested the placebo, 100 mg caffeine, or 100 mg caffeine plus 200 mg ornithine in the morning and completed questionnaires about their mood. Office workers who consumed the combination of caffeine and ornithine had higher mood ratings 8 h after consumption than office workers who consumed caffeine alone. The results of the present study suggest that there is a unique synergistic effect between caffeine and ornithine on the mood of healthy office workers and that ornithine may potentiate the effects of caffeine." 

 

 https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25580405

  https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4287333/

 

Some people reported that this combo provided  clean stimulation without anxiety. have anyone of you tried it?

"

[tolerant]

Interesting thread. Would all these substances that have been put forward to alleviate anxiogenic effects of caffeine still keep its fat loss properties intact?

[Grandmaster]

Interesting thread. Would all these substances that have been put forward to alleviate anxiogenic effects of caffeine still keep its fat loss properties intact?

Im not sure as i have never used caffeine for losing fat but i tried stacking 110mg of caffeine from guarana with 500mg l-ornithine and effects were...interesting.

 

By interesting i mean it completely removed ANY stimulation. In next like 10 hours after taking it i took around 500mg of caffeine from 3 sources and in always - nothing, no anxiety, no energy no anything. That was a really weird, l-ornithine should improve caffeine effects on dopamine and make cortisol lower but it just removed any effects - positive and negative. Maybe i will try smaller dose.

 

Anyway i still have effects that often 5 minutes - 1-3 hours after taking caffeine(effect is stronger with guarana capsules standarised for caffeine)  i feel anxiety, im unable to focus but after 3 or more hours i feel mood improvement, great energy etc Its most visible at night like 1-3 a.m. I thought it may be cortisol but when i remember when took ashvagandha or phosphatidylserine i felt like crap and anxiety was still there.  I probably have slight histamine intolerance but  methylxanthines like caffeine/theobromine/theophylline are mast cell stabilizers and anxiety is unkilely because of histamine reaction.... I dont know how to fix this issue. Im kinda addicted to caffeine - if i dont take any i feel braindead at late afternoon but this anxiety issue is a huge trouble for me.