25 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

Now there seems to be a few different opinions about this but i'm wondering how important the Macronutrient composition is to the diet when being Ketogenic.

 

Somebody recently said that the fat to protein ratio doesn't matter as long as your carbs are lower than 10 per day or something like that, but if you're getting that few carbs you are DEFINITELY going to have to replace them with a high amount of fat, because there's no way somebody is eating 80% or so of protein in their daily diet. 

 

RIGHT?

[Mind]

You have to eat mostly fat.

[pamojja]

The exact ratios are also somewhat individual. Most has to be healthy fats, for some 30-40g carbs a day might already be enough, and some have to be very careful with proteins, because their gluconeogenesis works very well.

[Andey]

In my experience, you only need to restrict carbohydrates, if you restrict them enough than protein doesn't matter. 10 g sounds about right. With 30-50 grams protein could probably tip the scales.

Its not that restrictive long term though, if you lose a taste for sugary and starchy food than ketosis will be effortless for the most part. 

 

 

[TheFountain]

You have to eat mostly fat.

Hey Mind,

 

That's what I was trying to tell this guy over at Mark's Daily. But he didn't listen to me. Talking about how you can get equal amounts of protein and fat and still be in Keto. 

The exact ratios are also somewhat individual. Most has to be healthy fats, for some 30-40g carbs a day might already be enough, and some have to be very careful with proteins, because their gluconeogenesis works very well.

Do you think Sub-50 Carbs per day is adequate for Ketosis?

The exact ratios are also somewhat individual. Most has to be healthy fats, for some 30-40g carbs a day might already be enough, and some have to be very careful with proteins, because their gluconeogenesis works very well.

Do you think Sub-50 Carbs per day is adequate for Ketosis?

In my experience, you only need to restrict carbohydrates, if you restrict them enough than protein doesn't matter. 10 g sounds about right. With 30-50 grams protein could probably tip the scales.

Its not that restrictive long term though, if you lose a taste for sugary and starchy food than ketosis will be effortless for the most part. 

 

But what the heck do you replace the carbs with if you're only getting 50 grams Protein? That seems like an Anorexic diet! It has to be fat!

Edited by TheFountain, 08 April 2019 - 02:51 AM.

[Andey]

I meant 50 grams of carbohydrates, thats where protein could start matter.
Zerocarb folks eat mostly meat and perfectly in ketosis.

[TheFountain]

I meant 50 grams of carbohydrates, thats where protein could start matter.
Zerocarb folks eat mostly meat and perfectly in ketosis.

There are three primary Macronutrients out there, carbs, fats and Proteins.

 

If you bottom out on carbs there's no way you can eat mostly protein as a macronutrient source without reaching rock bottom physiologically, you then need some fat. 

[Andey]

There are three primary Macronutrients out there, carbs, fats and Proteins.

 

If you bottom out on carbs there's no way you can eat mostly protein as a macronutrient source without reaching rock bottom physiologically, you then need some fat. 

 

  I could as argue but you clearly not reading people that you ve asked and just beating your own drum.

You don't fancy keto, that's fine.

[pamojja]

Do you think Sub-50 Carbs per day is adequate for Ketosis?

 

For example I'm only low-carb (~60 g/d), but lab urine-tests do already measure Ketones. So I seem to go in and out of ketosis every day. To stay, lower would be needed for me.
 

[TheFountain]

  I could as argue but you clearly not reading people that you ve asked and just beating your own drum.

You don't fancy keto, that's fine.

Your reading comprehension needs work too. 

 

I am actually doing Keto right now, and the lack of carbs requires the replacement with healthy fats, or else I am hungry and eating way too much protein. 

For example I'm only low-carb (~60 g/d), but lab urine-tests do already measure Ketones. So I seem to go in and out of ketosis every day. To stay, lower would be needed for me.
 

How much fat do you consume daily?

[Heisok]

The Fountain I think that you might be playing around a little. Since you are eating "Keto", please share your (1. total calories) , and the macros you eat in Protein, Carbs and Fat.

 

My opinion, to state what should be obvious, is that A "Keto" way of eating is a method to put one into some level of Ketosis. At this stage, due to my physical goals, I eat close to equal amounts of Protein and Fat.  I am sure that you know that fat has about 9 calories per gram.  When I need extra calories due to large amounts of activities, I will end up adding mostly more Fat, but also little more Protein.

 Screenshot_2019-04-08 calculator - Ketogains.jpg   59.27KB   0 downloads

Edited by Heisok, 08 April 2019 - 05:13 PM.

[Mind]

I eat avocados, coconut oil, olive oil, butter, heavy whipping cream, peanut butter, walnuts, almonds, and other nuts, when I want to achieve keto. For me, the easiest way to consume more fat is to put it in my coffee.

[Heisok]

Thanks Mind looks great. There are definitely those like you who eat that way into Ketosis. There seem to also be Vegans who also do. Apparantly, "The Fasting Mimicking Diet" allows ones body to reach Ketosis. My guess is that some of those who practice a structured Calorie Restriction way of eating, as some here do, can enter Ketosis.

 

TheFountain:

Ketogenic Diet

A ketogenic diet that is restricted in carbs and moderate in protein results in increased production of ketones into a range we call nutritional ketosis (described below). The amount of carbohydrate and protein a person can consume while still promoting nutritional ketosis varies based on many factors, notably the degree of that individual’s underlying insulin resistance. A general range is 30 to 60 grams per day of carbohydrate (closer to 30 grams for those who are more insulin resistant) and somewhere between 1.2 to 2 grams protein per kilogram reference weight per day. There are many ways to formulate a highly palatable ketogenic diet using real foods. But for it to be safe, pleasurable, effective, and sustainable requires consideration of several important principles that extend beyond simply restricting carbohydrate. A well formulated ketogenic diet (WFKD) adequately addresses all these components. The basis of a WFKD is described in our ‘Art and Science’ books.^2,3"

 

^{I am sure that you have heard of Dr. Phinney and Dr. Volek.}

 

https://blog.virtahe...9959.1554758315

[pamojja]

How much fat do you consume daily?

 

About 130g or 68% fats, 19% protein and 13% carbs on about 2100 kcal from diet. But haven't really measured and calculated a long time.

[misterE]

Too many fruits and vegetables can push you out of ketosis, because plant-food on average is 75% carbohydrate...

[TheFountain]

Too many fruits and vegetables can push you out of ketosis, because plant-food on average is 75% carbohydrate...

I agree with your assessment on Fruit, but vegetables?

 

They are mostly water. 75% Carbohydrate? Nope. 

 

Unless you're talking about root vegetables which most people on Keto avoid, opting instead for green and cruciferous vegetables. 

Edited by TheFountain, 16 April 2019 - 07:38 PM.

[misterE]

 

 

They are mostly water. 75% Carbohydrate? Nope. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.longecit...ate-plant-food/

[mikeinnaples]

I agree with your assessment on Fruit, but vegetables?

 

They are mostly water. 75% Carbohydrate? Nope. 

 

Unless you're talking about root vegetables which most people on Keto avoid, opting instead for green and cruciferous vegetables. 

 

Depends on which vegetables. Some vegetables are much higher in carbs than others. Some vegetables you need to avoid all together. It is all about your net carbs and keeping your protein level at just enough to maintain muscles / recovery from exercise. Everyone is slight different in regards to how many net carbs they can intake and remain in ketosis, factoring in protein and exercise as well of course. I am a gym junky, so once I am fully keto adapated, I can up my carb intake a few percentage points with no ill effect (though I usually don't). For macros on gym days, I shoot for 25% P / 65% F / 10% Carb. On off days, 15/75/10. Years of experience with my body, exercise, and keto has taught me this is effect for *me* to stay in Keto and not bounce in and out of it like those people who eat too much protein or carbs.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 02 May 2019 - 01:37 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

In my experience, you only need to restrict carbohydrates, if you restrict them enough than protein doesn't matter.

 

Not to be rude, but you are completely wrong. Protein absolutely matters. If you consume too much excess protein above what your body needs for repair/recovery you can absolutely knock yourself out of ketosis (though generally not completely). I am going to stick to percentages, because defining things in 'grams' is pointless unless we are the same size, etc. , which I am willing to bet we are not. Anyhow, point being if you are at 50% P / 45% F / 5% C, you 'can' get into keto, but it will take you longer to keto adapt and you will most likely waver in and out of ketosis (when depending on timing, type, and personal metabolism). This is not ideal nor the right way to do keto (nor is eating unhealthy fats while in keto), not to mention the fact that this much protein intake is absolutely horrible for your overall health. If you have a meal or two here and there with your macros like that, it isn't a big deal especially after you keto adapt because you don't break the adaptation and you regulate quicker than say, having a cheat meal where you intake 80% carbs. People that do 'cheat' meals and say they are on the keto 'diet' make me shake my head in disgust.... it doesn't work that way lol.

 

You can stick to actual true keto, do it in a completely healthy way, and eat tasty meals. Once you get the ins and outs of what you can/cant eat and get some good recipes together, it is easy AND makes you feel great while keeping you thin and high energy. The only caveat being is that if you get too low of a body fat % on keto when you run out of dietary fats, you literally run out of energy like a car running out of gas. Fortunately an avocado, handful of almonds, etc and you are good to go in 15 minutes.

 

Anyhow, see my prior post on macros.

 

[mikeinnaples]

FWIW - Last cholesterol numbers on keto + fully keto adapted

 

Total: 174

HDL: 70

LDL: 93

Tri: 39

 

Take it as you will

[TheFountain]

FWIW - Last cholesterol numbers on keto + fully keto adapted

 

Total: 174

HDL: 70

LDL: 93

Tri: 39

 

Take it as you will

Well, how do YOU take it?

[mikeinnaples]

High HDL, <100 LDL, and very low triglycerides indicating that particle size on the LDL I do have is most likely good. No statin use and familial hypercholesterolemia. So I would say I take it quite well

[TheFountain]

High HDL, <100 LDL, and very low triglycerides indicating that particle size on the LDL I do have is most likely good. No statin use and familial hypercholesterolemia. So I would say I take it quite well

 

What range of Trigs indicates smaller density LDL (AKA the god kind)?

[pamojja]

What range of Trigs indicates smaller density LDL (AKA the god kind)?

 

Heard from a specialist, anything closer to 150 makes them very likely, anything closer to 50 very unlikely. A 100 mg/dl therefore would mean a mixed bag.

[TheFountain]

Heard from a specialist, anything closer to 150 makes them very likely, anything closer to 50 very unlikely. A 100 mg/dl therefore would mean a mixed bag.

You're talking about trigs numbers or LDL numbers? 

 

Are you saying that as trigs go down, the GOOD KIND of LDL likely goes up?

[pamojja]

You're talking about trigs numbers or LDL numbers?

 

Since your question was: "What range of Trigs indicates smaller density LDL (AKA the god kind)?"

 

Of course triglycerides.

 

Are you saying that as trigs go down, the GOOD KIND of LDL likely goes up?

 

That's what it means. Large fluffy LDL go up, small dense LDL goes down. And with that also LDL particle number down.

 

Usual LDL lab values are only LDL-mass, with some labs not even measured bud calculated with the Friedewald formula (you could google). Apo-B-100, or simply Apo-B, can be taken as a more accurate substitute measurement for LDL-p, just as trigs for LDL particle size.
 

 

Edited by pamojja, 13 June 2019 - 09:40 PM.