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#1 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 12 November 2003 - 05:02 AM


In the future...

#2 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:02 AM

If our search for the proverbial fountain of youth has led us into the clutches of quacks and charlatans in the past, it becomes more difficult to separate fact from fancy in an age of sophisticated technology and experimentation. This quest for physical immortality is beginning to put many people in direct conflict with their religious authorities.

How does one square a Judeo Christian ethic based on mortification of the flesh and the denigration of worldly pleasures with a desire to live on earth as long as possible- forever, if it can be done? Religious leaders have been teaching their various flocks for centuries that this earthly “vale of tears” is merely a resting place, a testing ground, a preparation for a spiritual paradise in another dimension.

From what we’ve seen, religious authorities are not going to relinquish their power without a last-ditch fight. They are ever on the defensive for any new challenge to their disintegrating kingdom.

#3 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:04 AM

We are sure to see a world convention of priests, rabbis, gurus, and mortuary scientists sometime within the next few years to discuss anti-aging, cryonics, and other subversive, death-defying research.

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#4 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:19 AM

Within the last few decades we have circled the moon, harnesed nuclear energy, artificially reproduced DNA, and now have the biochemical means to control birth; why must Death itself, the Last Enemy, be considered sacred beyond conquest? Man has all but lost his ability to accommodate himself to personal extinction; he must now proceed physically to overcome it.

#5 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 05:22 AM

In the past quarter century the public relations of death, as managed by the theologians of all creeds and every secular orthodoxy, has all but exhausted the ancient excuses of what Unamuno calls "the running away of life like water." Today we are in a race against time, racing our own apocalypse. We are reduced to the simplest of propositions, we must solve the problem of death.

#6 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 28 November 2003 - 03:37 AM

To Religions, our society may become the death knell for many of their practices. As our memes spread through the world, ancient customs will be discarded or devalued.

We may be a part of the next great Religious War.

#7 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 05:25 PM

Does God forbid the use of analgesia during childbirth? That cruel opinion was brandished in the suffering faces of women for generations, before it was scorned into silence by the determination of mothers not to remain in pointless pain just because of a craftily interpreted verse in an ancient scripture. Is there a divine rule against adjusting aged eyes by popping on a pair of reading spectacles or contacts, or having the eyes’ lenses reshaped by laser surgery, wondrous boons not known to the ancients? I certainly hope not! And even if there is, I doubt that many people would obey it.

#8 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 05:27 PM

Death itself is more terrible than any ‘punishment worse than death', because it is so final, and only acceptable because until now there has nothing we could do to stave it off. If we are truly amoung the last mortal generation, perhaps in sight of the chance of becoming the first of the immortals, it surely would be best for us to refuse to bow in the face of ordinary fears and habitual scorn of religion.

#9 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 05:30 PM

Many religious people, to my amazement, denounce as immoral or repugnant the idea that we might enjoy indefinitely extended lives. Where is the sweetness of life, they ask, without the stings, pangs and agonies of its loss? Life is the bright left hand of death's darkness. No yin without yang, and so forth. I have some sympathy for this suspicion (everyone knows, for example, that well-earned hunger makes the finest sauce to a meal), but not much. I'm not persuaded that simple daulistic contrast and oppositions are the most useful way to analyse the world, let alone to form the basais for morality. Does freedom require the presence of a slave underclass? Are we only happy in our health because someone else or we ourselves in the future, might die in agony from cancer?

#10 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 05:41 PM

Today we weep to see some child doomed to piteous early death by leukaemia. Adults rush to contribute bone tissues that might reverse the errors in the child’s genes. In another century, we will feel no less anguish at the sight of ageing and death in anyone at all. Life is as replete and meaningful as we make it, and if we can share in the glories of the world for thousands or millions of years instead of a mere 70 or 80, I cannot imagine that a loving deity would resent our tenure here, or punish us for Living Long and Well.

#11 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 02:10 AM

If the message of life is to live truthfully and thereby accept the fact that life, itself, ends at some point in time for everyone, the cryogenic movement smacks of absurdity and whimsy. Yet, if one hopes or believes the mod­ern advances of science in cryopreservation have real potential, then he can wholly subscribe to the tenets of the movement.

Hope truly springs eternal! If there is the remotest chance of succeeding, should not the effort be undertaken then, in the name of scien­tific inquiry alone, to explore those chances? Unlike DNA ex­perimentation, no real or substantial harm inures to society as a consequence of research and experimentation in cryonic suspen­sion. Shattered individual hopes are the only fatality in cases of this nature. The power and magnitude of scientific thought and discovery can never be underestimated. Who, for example, in 1909 would have guessed that in the twentieth century a man would actually walk on the surface of the moon?

#12 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 06:34 AM

Immortality is one of the great spiritual needs of man. The churches have constituted themselves the official guardians of the need, with the result that some of them actually pretend to accord or to withhold it from the individual by their conventional sacraments.

#13 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 05:04 PM

There are, of course, some people who morally disagreed with the entire idea of technologized life extension. Their moral decision should respected and they should be perfectly free to drop dead.

#14 Omnido

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 08:46 PM

[lol] Heh well said.

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 12:36 AM

Warning : this post contains verbal atheist violence, it is recommended impressionable “believers” change channel now. ;)

First of all, let me say I couldn’t resist the temptation when I saw there was a « religion » thread in the « threats to life council » section. How fitting ! I almost laughed… and then I thought of the Inquisition and the witch-hunts.

I’m profoundly anti-religious. Religions aim to deprive people of their ability to think. God is supposed to have given us freedom of thought… yet there were times when you were forced to believe so. Then where is that freedom of thought ? Can’t you have the freedom of thinking you’re not thinking freely ? (take a deep breath, relax, read again, repeat)

I hate the term “religious authority”. That people as bright as engineers or scientists would be lead by morons whose trade is to tell you stupid fairy tales and have you believe they are facts. Does anyone thinks Snow White ever existed ? No. Then why Jesus ?

Common sense dictates religions are ultra-shallow scams. The fact that any major scientific discovery brings a religious crisis is proof of that. You don’t see engineers in dismay because relativity means the ohm’s law was wrong. Both phenomenon have been observed and as such, they can’t contradict each other.

Even the discovery of such simple things as gravity and the solar system structure have threatened religion so much they had to silence and/or kill people like Galileo. Would the pope be in charge of the world we’d still be thinking the Earth is flat and therefore we wouldn’t have satellites or the USA. How smart is that ?

Immortality… now that’s going to be THE major crisis for religion, and boy am I happy Torquemada isn’t around anymore ! For sure he’s send the entire Inquisition to round us up and burn us, just to show we ain’t so immortal !

The essence of religious faith is “be poor, be meek, you’ll be rewarded WHEN YOU’RE DEAD”. Look at the Vatican : are they being poor or meek ? Nope, not a chance. Could they spare some of that gold or the massive silver staff of the pope to feed the poor ? Dream on it.

I’m sure when we find a way to achieve physical immortality, the pope and all his friends will want some of that. That’ll be the true sign they don’t believe in their own fairy tales. And if they don’t go for immortality ? Then there won’t be any problem : we immortals will outlive them eventually.

Of course, humans being what they are (that is, bad company) it’s very likely immortalist religions will arise. Several ideas come to mind : the gods made us immortal, the gods will be back someday and give us powers, whatever you want…

That, my friends, is the real problem. That need some people have to place belief above reason. As if you can’t be a rational visionary. As if beliefs could ever turn into reality.

Fortunately, there might be a way to solve this. We only have to ban religions altogether, especially from the education of our children.

Religious instruction is too powerful to be left to morons. Truth detectors don’t work on Muslims, do you know why ?

Because they are designed to detect reactions we have when we lie : sweating, something like “the fear of god”, of having done something bad. It’s unconscious. We can't help it.

Muslims believe anything goes if it’s for Allah and Islam. Raping kids ? Not a problem if the mollah say so. Sticking jets into sky-crappers in kamikaze attacks ? Sure, why not ? Aren't Americans the enemies of Allah ?

As a result they don’t show any particular unconscious reaction to lie detectors. That tells you exactly what power education, especially religious education, can have.

First Immortal, you say we “may” be a part of the next religious war : I must correct this, we ARE part of that war and it’s going on right now. If we win it, we’ll have immortality, the atomic weapon of religious wars.

But remember : there’s no such thing as an ultimate war. We should be able to win the one we’re in now, but what of the next ones ? When physical immortality will be made a part of religion, our fight will have amounted to nothing. Worse : people will be immortal morons lead by scam architects.

About that “happiness” bit… it’s unfortunately very human to feel more happy when you’ve known sad moments. Feeling happy all the time dulls happiness.

But who ever said we HAD to be happy forever ? I’m sometimes happy, but most of the time I’m just existing… wandering in my lab… doing research… wondering about what marvels will be unveiled by Intel or AMD for Christmas…

Happiness, we all know this, can’t be defined. For me is a very short moment, a heartbeat, when you just exist without any care for the past or the future. You’re locked in the present with the source of your happiness. Then reality sets in, and you’re “normal” again.

It’s the same for sadness : it’s a blow, a hit, and as soon as it happens you start recovering from it.

If we’re lucky, we’ll be hit by happy things more often than by sad things… but I personally don’t know anyone that’s been so lucky. It’s much easier for humans to grieve than to rejoice and I, being the ever pessimistic type, am certainly no exception.

Jean

#16 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 01:18 AM

Warning : this post contains verbal atheist violence, it is recommended impressionable “believers” change channel now. ;)


Oh No, R Rated [:o]

#17 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 01:20 AM

Warning : this post contains verbal atheist violence, it is recommended impressionable “believers” change channel now. ;)

First of all, let me say I couldn’t resist the temptation when I saw there was a « religion » thread in the « threats to life council » section. How fitting ! I almost laughed… and then I thought of the Inquisition and the witch-hunts.

I’m profoundly anti-religious. Religions aim to deprive people of their ability to think. God is supposed to have given us freedom of thought… yet there were times when you were forced to believe so. Then where is that freedom of thought ? Can’t you have the freedom of thinking you’re not thinking freely ? (take a deep breath, relax, read again, repeat)

I hate the term “religious authority”. That people as bright as engineers or scientists would be lead by morons whose trade is to tell you stupid fairy tales and have you believe they are facts. Does anyone thinks Snow White ever existed ? No. Then why Jesus ?

Common sense dictates religions are ultra-shallow scams. The fact that any major scientific discovery brings a religious crisis is proof of that. You don’t see engineers in dismay because relativity means the ohm’s law was wrong. Both phenomenon have been observed and as such, they can’t contradict each other.

Even the discovery of such simple things as gravity and the solar system structure have threatened religion so much they had to silence and/or kill people like Galileo. Would the pope be in charge of the world we’d still be thinking the Earth is flat and therefore we wouldn’t have satellites or the USA. How smart is that ?

Immortality… now that’s going to be THE major crisis for religion, and boy am I happy Torquemada isn’t around anymore ! For sure he’s send the entire Inquisition to round us up and burn us, just to show we ain’t so immortal !

The essence of religious faith is “be poor, be meek, you’ll be rewarded WHEN YOU’RE DEAD”. Look at the Vatican : are they being poor or meek ? Nope, not a chance. Could they spare some of that gold or the massive silver staff of the pope to feed the poor ? Dream on it.

I’m sure when we find a way to achieve physical immortality, the pope and all his friends will want some of that. That’ll be the true sign they don’t believe in their own fairy tales. And if they don’t go for immortality ? Then there won’t be any problem : we immortals will outlive them eventually.

Of course, humans being what they are (that is, bad company) it’s very likely immortalist religions will arise. Several ideas come to mind : the gods made us immortal, the gods will be back someday and give us powers, whatever you want…

That, my friends, is the real problem. That need some people have to place belief above reason. As if you can’t be a rational visionary. As if beliefs could ever turn into reality.

Fortunately, there might be a way to solve this. We only have to ban religions altogether, especially from the education of our children.

Religious instruction is too powerful to be left to morons. Truth detectors don’t work on Muslims, do you know why ?

Because they are designed to detect reactions we have when we lie : sweating, something like “the fear of god”, of having done something bad. It’s unconscious. We can't help it.

Muslims believe anything goes if it’s for Allah and Islam. Raping kids ? Not a problem if the mollah say so. Sticking jets into sky-crappers in kamikaze attacks ? Sure, why not ? Aren't Americans the enemies of Allah ?

As a result they don’t show any particular unconscious reaction to lie detectors. That tells you exactly what power education, especially religious education, can have.

First Immortal, you say we “may” be a part of the next religious war : I must correct this, we ARE part of that war and it’s going on right now. If we win it, we’ll have immortality, the atomic weapon of religious wars.

But remember : there’s no such thing as an ultimate war. We should be able to win the one we’re in now, but what of the next ones ? When physical immortality will be made a part of religion, our fight will have amounted to nothing. Worse : people will be immortal morons lead by scam architects.

About that “happiness” bit… it’s unfortunately very human to feel more happy when you’ve known sad moments. Feeling happy all the time dulls happiness.

But who ever said we HAD to be happy forever ? I’m sometimes happy, but most of the time I’m just existing… wandering in my lab… doing research… wondering about what marvels will be unveiled by Intel or AMD for Christmas…

Happiness, we all know this, can’t be defined. For me is a very short moment, a heartbeat, when you just exist without any care for the past or the future. You’re locked in the present with the source of your happiness. Then reality sets in, and you’re “normal” again.

It’s the same for sadness : it’s a blow, a hit, and as soon as it happens you start recovering from it.

If we’re lucky, we’ll be hit by happy things more often than by sad things… but I personally don’t know anyone that’s been so lucky. It’s much easier for humans to grieve than to rejoice and I, being the ever pessimistic type, am certainly no exception.

Jean


Love to add to this, and will. But I got a rescue mission to attend to.

#18 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:03 AM

It must be remembered that for some of us, cryonics repre­sents a part of our "religion". There is an unwillingness to accept a spiritual afterlife of the promises of organized religions. We opt for active mastery over our own destinies.

If we are “frozen,” we have a chance for Immortality, no matter how slim. If we are cremated or embalmed and buried to rot in the ground, we are through.

#19 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:06 AM

Let's review the feelings, teachings and beliefs of the three major religions of the world, and how they relate to cry­onic groups.

Some proponents of cryonics believe, and would have you believe, that there’s no religious opposition to this method of interment. They see no theological difference in being revived after a clini­cal death of a few minutes or fifty years. We are told cryonic suspension stretches out the time scale.

They also point out if cryonic suspension is demonstrated to be successful, it will attest to the evidence of how God can produce a life-prolonging miracle through the minds and hands of medical scientists. They also tell us that some very religious peo­ple have already been suspended. The supporters quickly point out that a Catholic Priest consecrated the storage capsule, and a Rabbi officiated at a ceremony at the time of suspension.

The case involving the Catholic Priest goes back a few years.

When Nicholas DeBlasio’s wife Ann died, he had her cryo­genically suspended at Mt. Holiness. A retired New York policeman, Mr. DeBlasio intends to join his wife in frozen rest when his time comes. “I put my faith in science,” he said.

The freezing was, in fact, endorsed by Bishop Kellenberg of Rockville Center, New York. Father Saverio C. Mattei, the fam­ily priest, consecrated the capsule in which Mrs. DeBlasio is kept.

The news media was ready for a field day as they expected flack from church officials. There was none.

The followers of cryonics keep pointing to this case as if it is an endorsement of our belief.

#20 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:11 AM

Rev. Monsignor Daniel S. Hamilton, editor of The Long Island Catholic

“Catholic teaching recommends burial, but permits cremation, as long as the latter method for disposing of the body is not associated with a denial of the Christian faith."

“The act of freezing a cadaver is not wrong. But the motiva­tion for doing so many not be in accord with the Christian and Catholic faith. The person who freezes the body of a deceased loved one may be sincere, but not realize that his or her hope conflicts with Christian faith. This action, moreover, may create unrealizable expectations and affect the survivor adversely in a psychological way."

“Our faith teaches us that cryonic burial-the freezing of a body with the idea that science will some day be able to resusci­tate it-is useless. As you know,’ brain damage takes place when oxygen ceases to reach the brain. When death has certainly occurred, the human spirit (soul) departs for the particular judgment and enters the state of heaven, purgatory or hell. The resurrection of the body-and consequent reintegration of the body/spirit person-cannot occur by any natural means until the last day, when the Lord Jesus comes in glory. Any standard Catholic catechism will explain these teachings. On the last day all will be resurrected, the righteous and unrighteous, but none before that day.”

#21 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:14 AM

Protestant View

From The American Lutheran Church we have Edward D. Schneider, Ph.D., Associate Director for Studies, saying:

“While the American Lutheran Church has passed no official resolution on this issue, it is my judgment that our theological tradition provides a clear perspective from which to view the issue. In summary, that theological perspective would hold that any attempt to avoid indefinitely the reality of death represents a denial of the creatureliness assigned to us by the Creator All attempts to secure immortality through human effort demon­strate lack of faith in the God who raised Christ from death and places ultimate hope in advances in human technology rather than in the God to whom we commit our future.”

#22 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:16 AM

The Rev. Canon Francis W. Read, Canon to the Ordinary, of
The American Church Union, comments:

“There is no more an Episcopalian position on cryonics than there is on unbelief in God. There is no more an Episcopalian law or canon on the subject than there is on atheism. We Epis­copalians, together with all other Christians, believe that life is the gift of God, and that death is the process by which that life leaves the mortal body. What happens to that life thereafter is a matter on which Christians differ, but they are all of one mind in agreeing that the corpse is but an inert mass of material, which cannot be restored to life by any scientific or medical means or by any act of man. The only authenticated cases of resurrection of a human body are those reported in the Holy Scriptures as a result of the direct intervention of God-a miracle. In the view of the Christian church, cryonics seeks to place man on God’s throne and asserts that man, not God, is the giver of life.”

#23 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:19 AM

Islam

Dr. Hosny M. Gaber, Director of The Islamic Cultural Center
of New York, informs us:

“According to the religion of Islam, cryonic burial is not al­lowed. Burial is only in the normal way in the ground. Once one is dead, no way of science or otherwise restores him to life in this world. On the Day of Resurrection, bodies are joined to the souls and people will come to life again; not necessarily in the same life as in this world, but a life that suits the Hereafter.”

#24 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 06:23 AM

Catholic Viewpoints

Monsignor Hamilton’s remarks give a good indication on Cath­olic thought and philosophy on the subject of cryonics. Here’s
more views to broaden the topic.


At the height of cryonic popularity, Reverend Daniel L. Low­ery, writing in the Liguorian (published by the Redemptorist Fathers) for February, 1967, in an item titled, “Freeze Alive, Then Revive,” says:

“In my opinion, it cannot be emphasized too strongly that man also possesses a right to die in dignity-normally, naturally. Once a Christian has used all of the ordinary means of preserving his life, he is free to face death calmly-unencumbered by useless paraphernalia and unworried about freezers.

“After all, a Christian does not see death as a final and hope­less event. He knows that life is not ended but simply changed. He believes in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. He looks forward to eternal life with Christ.”


In updating his views, the Redemptorist Father Lowery, states:

“I should say at once that I do not consider myself in any sense an expert on the questions surrounding cryonics. I have not pur­sued the subject in great depth. However, as far as I am able to understand it, I do believe that I would basically stand by what I have written in the Liguorian article to which you refer. I would not consider mine the only Catholic position but it is the one that seems best to me.”

#25 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 01:08 PM

In checking with the Canon Law Society of America, Rev.
James H. Provost, Executive-Coordinator, responds:

“First, in regard to canon law itself there is no restriction which would prohibit someone from receiving the usual sacramental ministrations of the church and funeral rites if they had decided to make use of cryonics.

“So far as I know, there is no canon law against willing to have one’s corpse placed in cold storage, provided that the person is truly dead. If they were not dead and freezing were to be at­tempted, there is a canon against homicide which would result.

“From a moral theology point of view I suspect moral theo­logians would question the kind of expectation that is underly­ing the use of cryonics, in that it may be misleading people into thinking that sometime in the future death will be done away with, and therefore causing them to invest considerable amounts of money in this kind of thing. However, that is not a canon law question and I do not wish to comment on it.”

#26 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 01:10 PM

From the Jewish Conservative Movement we hear from Rabbi Wolfe Kelnian, Executive Vice-President of the Rabbinical Assembly.
He states:

“I do not recall specific rulings in the Jewish tradition con­cerning cryonics. Perhaps the letter of Jewish law would not be
violated by such practices.

“Many Jewish burial traditions and customs are a reaction to Egyptian practices with its mumification of selected individuals of high social standing. Jewish practice was an attempt to reflect the equality of all people irrespective of rank or wealth, there­fore, the emphasis on the modest wooden coffin and simple shroud, available and accessible to all.

“I suspect that cryonics would be available only to people of considerable wealth and influence which would appear to be anti­thetical to the spirit of the Jewish tradition.”

#27 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 01:27 PM

In writing in the Current Reform Responsa Dr. Freehof heads his topic: “Freezing Of Bodies” (Cryobiology). He goes on to say:

“According to a newly developed scientific technique, cryobi­ology, it seems possible to freeze a human body and after consid­erable time, perhaps months or years, thaw out the body and revive the person. The question asked is:Is it permissible by Jewish law and Jewish legal tradition to take the body of a per­son dying of disease at present incurable and freeze it for a long time, even years, and then revive him when a cure for his sick­ness will have been discovered? The suggestion involves many difficulties in the law, as the questioner correctly points out, namely has a person the right to consent to such a procedure with regard to himself? What is the status of his wife and child­ren? Are they in mourning as if the person were dead? When shall he be revived? Who will decide, etc.?”

“I believe that we may assume that these wider questions in­volving cryobiology are for the present largely theoretical. Most of the questions raised involve freezing the body for years and then reviving it when some cure will have been found for the sick person’s disease. It is hard to believe that it would be pos­sible to freeze a body for five or ten years and then revive it without the body having deteriorated at all. In other words,in the case of all strange remedies discussed in the law, the question is always asked how provable a remedy it is, and whether there are not dangers involved in it.

“But the basic question here is another one entirely. The pro­posal is to freeze such bodies in cases only of people already dying or virtually dying of an incurable disease. So it amounts to the delaying of the death of a dying person. This is clearly prohibited by Jewish law. While one may not do anything at all to hasten the death of a dying person, one may also not do any­thing at all to prevent his dying. Such a person has the right to die.

“The famous German mystic-legal work “The Book of the Pious,” from which many customs and laws are often cited, states (p. 100, 315-18): “If a man is sick and in pain and dying and asks another man to kill him mercifully, this request must not be fulfilled, nor may the man take his own life. Still, you may not put salt on his tongue to keep him alive longer.” Then it continues: “Ecclesiastes says, ‘There is a time to live and a time to die.”’ Why does the author need to add this obvious fact? The answer is that he has in mind the following situation: “If a man is dying, do not pray too hard that his soul return, that is, that he revive from the coma. He can at best live only a few days and in those days he will endure great suffering. So, ‘there is a time to die.”’

Dr. Freehof concludes by saying:

“In other words, the answer would be that if there were a trustworthy remedy already available for the disease but the remedy involved freezing, it would all be permitted. But if there is only speculation that some day a remedy might be discovered and on the basis of that speculation the process of dying is pre­vented, that is contrary to the spirit of Jewish law.”

#28 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 08:21 PM

The philosophy favoring cryonic burial seems to be contrary in general to the Christian and other religious beliefs and understanding of the purpose of life and the meaning of death.

#29 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 08:25 PM

With new technologies and scientific advancements always on the horizon, cryonics will apply them feasibly to our ulti­mate goal of “physical immortality.” If our principles spread and take hold of the public’s imagination and hope, it will have a great effect on our society.

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#30 randolfe

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Posted 07 December 2003 - 09:14 PM

Ironically, I just read an article a few minutes ago by a woman in the Philippines that did an interesting job of merging traditional religious belief and cryonics:

http://www.stpauls.p..... Features.htm

She argues that religion and cryonics both strive for immortal life. I certainly see that as the case and find myself very sympathetic to Venturism.

Her best argument was that both religion and cryonics are pro-life. She accepts the idea that the cryonic "patient" is not really dead. Therefore, revival causes no problems.

While, Alcor talks about the difficulty of getting "good feedback" from those in their care, I think this argument of "suspended life" becomes totally valid when one thinks of life at the cellular level.

Cells cryonically preserved for future human cloning are demonstrabably able to be thawed and cultured. No one can argue against the fact that "the spark of life" is certainly suspended.

Given the power of people like Leon Kass and the slow progress of cloning technology, cryonic suspension might well be needed by those who see cloning as a rebirth in a different body.

I had much debate with fellow cloning activist about my Congressional testimony in which I described cloning as "a partial temporary immortality". I know that is not what most immortalists are seeking. However, I would be delighted to survive in that fashion until the thawing of my original self could be achieved.

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