24 replies to this topic

[Alphalifestyle]

Hallo,

I have some general questions about dental hygiene. I figured that for someone who seeks longevity it must be essential to keep good, healthy teeth. Unfortunately I had TOO good teeth until I was like 20, even so I always had a very sloopy dental health regime. I maybe brushed my teeth once every other day, but I never had a whole until I was like 20. I guess my good teeth came from flour pills my mother gave me as a child, because thats the only special thing I can remember teeth with.

Anyway now I am 24 and last year my dentist told me that he found small cavities in 9 places and wants to drill. I was shocked as I stupidly believed to have magic, undestructable teeth or something.
I refused to let him drill anyhow, because somehow I didn't like the idea of drilling a way parts of my teeth, because like I said it must be the goal to preserve the teeth as long as possible and drilling holes in them just feels wrong.

I started to read some alternative material and found some ebooks of a Dr. Nara, who claims, that conventional dentists are just treating symptoms instead of the disease, which causes tooth decay. He said if you can create a healthy envirorment in the mouth, the bacteria, which cause teeth decay will die of and teeth can even regenerate, holes can close again. His solution was basically a very throughly dental care regime and high concentration flour floss mouthwash if I remember correctly. Alternatively he recommended this natural tooth pulver: http://www.eco-dent....oothpowders.htm

I would like to know if there is really any "secret" that the oral health profession is not telling us, because they need peoples mouth to be sick, so they can make money with their dental repair jobs?
Should I led my small holes untreated and start with a really throughly oral health regime and my small holes will eventually heal or is that wishful thinking/pseudoscience?
Should I first get the holes treated and than start with a faithful daily oral health regime?
Any recommendations for a state of the art health care regime?

[aLurker]

According to my dental hygienist small holes can heal. I've also had perfect teeth but in my last dental exam he pointed out that I have two small holes and that we didn't have to drill just yet since they can heal on their own. Obviously you'll have to make some changes in your dental regimen for that to happen though. Some of the measures I've taken are sweetening with xylitol, vitamin K&D, less sugar, better brushing and flossing daily. If the holes are bigger drilling might be the best option though, what I'm talking about are pretty superficial holes. You could always get a second opinion to ensure the best way to proceed but drilling might be it.

[rwac]

A low carb diet would help your teeth if you're already so inclined, but it might be overkill.

Carbs tend to feed bacteria, and grains have stuff like IP-6 which can strip calcium from your teeth.

Edited by rwac, 08 September 2010 - 10:45 PM.

[lunarsolarpower]

Incipient dental caries (which are the beginning stage of cavities but are not actually holes, just weakened, demineralized tooth structure) can be remineralized with the right treatment. However once the surface has cavitated (a hole has formed) it cannot be remineralized and the perimeter of decayed tooth structure around the cavity must be removed and a filling placed before the damage spreads potentially to the nerve of the tooth where it can cause a painful abscess and necessitate a minimum of a root canal and crown and potentially the tooth being lost entirely.

Taking proper care of your teeth involves your entire day. You should only take in substances which will cause the pH of your mouth to become more acidic 3-4 times through out the day (basically this is eating food and drinking sugary and/or acidic drinks). If you are healthy, your saliva will gradually raise the pH back up to where the teeth are gaining rather than losing minerals during the time between these acidic activities . You also need to at a minimum spend 2 minutes brushing your teeth at least twice a day including once after you are done eating for the day before going to bed. Also your oral hygiene is not complete until you thoroughly floss wrapping and scraping 4-5 times on each surface of each tooth with the floss. This must be done at an absolute minimum of once every 24 hours but may be necessary more often depending on the severity of your condition. Be careful when brushing and flossing as you want to clean thoroughly but it is possible to harm your gums by being too aggressive. If your gums bleed when you floss them don't worry. It is just a sign that they are inflamed from not having been kept clean and if you start off with a professional cleaning and then floss properly every day for a couple weeks the bleeding should stop.

There are other situations that may require additional preventive steps so talk to your dentist and/or hygenist about what you can do. In the mean time while you need to start doing your part daily to keep the oral fauna from building up and becoming pathogenic by following the steps I've outlined above, you also need to have the carious decay removed from your teeth because now that it has begun it will continue to spread under the surface of the tooth in spite of your best efforts to keep things clean in your mouth.

Edited by lunarsolarpower, 09 September 2010 - 07:05 AM.

[Alphalifestyle]

Incipient dental caries (which are the beginning stage of cavities but are not actually holes, just weakened, demineralized tooth structure) can be remineralized with the right treatment. However once the surface has cavitated (a hole has formed) it cannot be remineralized and the perimeter of decayed tooth structure around the cavity must be removed and a filling placed before the damage spreads potentially to the nerve of the tooth where it can cause a painful abscess and necessitate a minimum of a root canal and crown and potentially the tooth being lost entirely.

Taking proper care of your teeth involves your entire day. You should only take in substances which will cause the pH of your mouth to become more acidic 3-4 times through out the day (basically this is eating food and drinking sugary and/or acidic drinks). If you are healthy, your saliva will gradually raise the pH back up to where the teeth are gaining rather than losing minerals during the time between these acidic activities . You also need to at a minimum spend 2 minutes brushing your teeth at least twice a day including once after you are done eating for the day before going to bed. Also your oral hygiene is not complete until you thoroughly floss wrapping and scraping 4-5 times on each surface of each tooth with the floss. This must be done at an absolute minimum of once every 24 hours but may be necessary more often depending on the severity of your condition. Be careful when brushing and flossing as you want to clean thoroughly but it is possible to harm your gums by being too aggressive. If your gums bleed when you floss them don't worry. It is just a sign that they are inflamed from not having been kept clean and if you start off with a professional cleaning and then floss properly every day for a couple weeks the bleeding should stop.

There are other situations that may require additional preventive steps so talk to your dentist and/or hygenist about what you can do. In the mean time while you need to start doing your part daily to keep the oral fauna from building up and becoming pathogenic by following the steps I've outlined above, you also need to have the carious decay removed from your teeth because now that it has begun it will continue to spread under the surface of the tooth in spite of your best efforts to keep things clean in your mouth.

Thanks everyone for the comments.

So if my dental health specialist says he wants to drill in 9 places, but me and my brother cannot even see a brown dot or hole anywhere when we carefully examine my mouth, should I still trust him or is there a risk that he wants to drill in places where I only suffer from Incipient dental caries? I am always suspicious of doctors having in mind there short term gain more than my long term health.
How can I make sure, maybe through right questioning, that its inevitable to drill?

Oh also my dental health specialist made a Xray of my mouth and said he found caries at the site of my tooth, at a place where my two teeth are so close to each other, that he could only reach it, via drilling a hole from the top through my whole healthy tooth (!!!), but it would be necessary to threat this "hidden" tooth decay.


Anyway, lets suppose I only have early stage tooth decay, does remineralization occour natural through my body if I keep the right enviroment in my mouth through oral hygiene and avoiding sugars, etc?
Or should I invest in a little more expensive tooth paste? What about mouth wash and rinse? Is a expensive toothbrush like the Waterpik Sensonic SR 1000 E , high-speed sonic toothbrush worth it?

We also have no fluor in our tapwater here in Germany, should I maybe use a high concentration fluor product (tooth cream, rinse...)?

What product do you recommend for floss wrapping?

[suprdupracetam]

Yes you can almost certainly heal your teeth.

This web page covers most of the important points.

http://wholehealthso...ooth-decay.html

Also see the 20 posts on the right hand side of the linked page under
'dental health'.

Some of the basic keys are --

whole foods diet low in phytic acid
taking cod liver oil, vitamin D and vitamin k2 with meals twice a day

In the short term you may also want to add in some xylitol gum.
(I prefer the xylichew brand (from finland)).


Please report back to the forum after your teeth start to
remineralize. Good luck!

[VampIyer]

My teeth are in horrible condition due to lifelong vitamin D deficiency, malnutrition, inadequate saliva production, possibly mouth-breathing?, and chronic illness. - And yet, I generally did take better care of my teeth than my older (healthier) brother, who has excellent teeth (not to be bitter, just illustrating the difference):

I'm trying to reverse the damage as much as possible before I go back for a dental appointment (which will be soon):

- I've increased my Vitamin D3 levels, and I also take ~90mcg of Vitamin K2 MK7 per day
- I floss 2-3 times per day, but I use the disposable Floss-Picks on a plastic flossing tool (Not sure there is a standardized name for it). I find it saves time, is easier, and provides extra reach.
- I brush with a re-mineralization toothpaste at least once daily. I use Dr. Collin's toothpaste because it contains "NovaMin" - a proven re-mineralization compound. SootheRX is another paste containing Novamin. Oravive was the first popular Novamin paste, but that company is no longer around.The other popular compound on the market is "Recaldent," which is found in MI-Paste.
- Otherwise I will brush with a combination of a fluoride toothpaste (usually Colgate) and NOW's Xyliwhite (which contains xylitol - an alcoholic sugar proven to improve oral health).
- I want to make this a habit: I throw a pinch of xylitol in my mouth before I sleep. I let the saliva build up, then I rinse thoroughly with the xylitol and swallow - this makes my teeth feel noticeable smoother and "harder" the next day.

Cleaning process: Floss and dry-brush to get rid of any particles, rinse with Listerine, Brush with paste.

* You should not be taking any ingested fluoride. It's a highly electronegative ion, and thus it bonds to Calcium quite well, thereby hardening tooth enamel (This is good). In the body, it is found in trace amounts (likely in the bones), but more than that is harmful. Just a little bit of hydrofluoric acid (Yea - you're not going to get a hold of that substance, I know), for instance, would likely kill someone, and leech from the bones... who knows... they used it to dissolve a body in "Breaking Bad" (TV series).

My thoughts: Once the enamel has eroded, the tooth is in trouble. Beneath the enamel is the Dentin, which is composed of tubule-like conduits which can provide a route for anaerobic bacteria to colonize the root. I'm not even sure a root-canal full solves the problem: The Dentin would still be infected, the filling they use to replace the extracted pulp will not be perfectly sized and is susceptible to shrinkage, and thus the bacteria could recolonize. That's just my thinking... I actually want to get a bone-scan to determine whether or not I have an infection. As I said, my teeth are awful (They LOOK fine (even better than average because I really did take care of them) to the untrained eye, but I know they are awful).

[Alphalifestyle]

Yes you can almost certainly heal your teeth.

This web page covers most of the important points.

http://wholehealthso...ooth-decay.html

Also see the 20 posts on the right hand side of the linked page under
'dental health'.

Some of the basic keys are --

whole foods diet low in phytic acid
taking cod liver oil, vitamin D and vitamin k2 with meals twice a day

In the short term you may also want to add in some xylitol gum.
(I prefer the xylichew brand (from finland)).


Please report back to the forum after your teeth start to
remineralize. Good luck!

Thats interesting, probably it was inspired by this book "Cure Tooth Decay: Heal and Prevent Cavities with Nutrition", which again was inspired by the works of Weston E. Price, who's nutritional advice or diet, "traditional diet", which is similar to the whole "Stoneage/Primitive Diet", alot of meat, organs, bones, cod liveroil, vegetables, no processed food, no grains, etc.

The only problem is that I live in Germany, where bread is like THE favourite food (and one of the few affordable things) and I am a student, which kinda limits my options, I cannot eat organic meat and organs with vegtables everyday. Sad, but true. Pasta, rice, bread and processed food is like the main food source for most students, I try to avoid it as much as possible, but every now and then you have to bite the bullet. Its difficult to have a healthy, organic diet as a student, I think I would need a 4 times bigger budget here in expensive Germany to have a perfect, organic diet. I really should move to Korea, because I recently found out, that almost everybody there has a diet which seems like 1:1 what Dr. Price recommends. Lucky Koreans... Kimchi rules.

Anyway, your article says "Sourdough" Bread would be alright. I can live with that. I am also curious, because in Weston E. Prices book, he also praised the diet of a Swiss mountain community, who lived of whole grain bread, cheese and milk. Why can they eat whole grain bread without tooth decay?

Regarding the Vitamine D and K2. Inspired from reading imminist.org, I planned on finally supplying my diet with 2 supplements: AOR Ortho-Core multivitamine and high quality fishoil.
Is the Vitamine D and K2 as part of the multivitamine sufficent? I mean I don't need a additional source for it right? Also, should I maybe switch every so often between fishil and cod liver oil or can I take BOTH or is one sufficent?


Vampyler:
Did you read the ebooks of Dr. Robert Nara? What is your opinion regarding his theories? Dr Nara says:
"In my opinion the whole thing boils down to one simple fact:
The dental establishment is scared to death that the public
is going to realize that the entire profession has been making
a living by repairing the results of a disease they could have
been curing all along!"


Basically there seem to be two approaches regarding healing tooth decay:

Dr Nara promotes a rigorous cleansing regime to keep the inside of the mouth spotlessly clean and keep the bacteria count low.

Ramiel Nagel/Weston E. Price promote oral health via correct, traditional diet, which promote dental health through the vitamin content and internal balance of our blood.

Maybe combining both: A organic, traditional diet rich in minerals, enzymes and vitamines and a excellent cleansing regime can really reverse early stages of tooth decay.

Another option is, that both approaches are pseudoscientific bullshit and teeth just decay and have to get repaired by technicians every now and then, but I don't really believe that.

[rwac]

Regarding the Vitamine D and K2. Inspired from reading imminist.org, I planned on finally supplying my diet with 2 supplements: AOR Ortho-Core multivitamine and high quality fishoil.
Is the Vitamine D and K2 as part of the multivitamine sufficent? I mean I don't need a additional source for it right? Also, should I maybe switch every so often between fishil and cod liver oil or can I take BOTH or is one sufficent?

It's absolutely not sufficient. You should get something like 2000-5000IU of vitamin D, depending on your previous levels, and say 5-15mg of MK4 for for your teeth.

[Alphalifestyle]

Regarding the Vitamine D and K2. Inspired from reading imminist.org, I planned on finally supplying my diet with 2 supplements: AOR Ortho-Core multivitamine and high quality fishoil.
Is the Vitamine D and K2 as part of the multivitamine sufficent? I mean I don't need a additional source for it right? Also, should I maybe switch every so often between fishil and cod liver oil or can I take BOTH or is one sufficent?

It's absolutely not sufficient. You should get something like 2000-5000IU of vitamin D, depending on your previous levels, and say 5-15mg of MK4 for for your teeth.

Are you talking long term or short term? Isn't 1000IU from Ortho-Core + Sunlight and eventually Cod Liver Oil enough? Should I supplement with a additional Vitamin D supplement?

What is MK4? Previously someone mentioned MK7, are that different forms of Vitamin K? Ortho-Core has Menatetrenone (MK-4) 120mcg.

[rwac]

Are you talking long term or short term? Isn't 1000IU from Ortho-Core + Sunlight and eventually Cod Liver Oil enough? Should I supplement with a additional Vitamin D supplement?

What is MK4? Previously someone mentioned MK7, are that different forms of Vitamin K? Ortho-Core has Menatetrenone (MK-4) 120mcg.

That's why you want to test your vit D levels so you can adjust your supplementation accordingly.
Yes, they are different forms of vitamin K. There's anecdotal evidence of 5+ mg of MK-4 preventing plaque formation.

[Logan]

Oil pulling using sesame or sunflower oil.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19336860

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18408265

[lunarsolarpower]

I am also curious, because in Weston E. Prices book, he also praised the diet of a Swiss mountain community, who lived of whole grain bread, cheese and milk. Why can they eat whole grain bread without tooth decay?

You could probably have a diet of soda pop and doughnuts and still avoid tooth decay but you would have to be fastidious about your oral health routine. You would follow each acidic insult by immediately chewing some sugar free gum (preferably with xylitol) to stimulate saliva and quickly raise the pH. Then you would floss thoroughly around each side of each tooth. Finally you would brush with a fluoride containing dentifrice. To follow up you might apply a remineralizing product like MI Paste to the teeth after the final brushing of the day. On a regular basis (frequency to be determined by your periodontal condition and speed of tartar buildup) you would be seen for professional cleanings.

Now, how many people who are not dental hygenists take that good of care of their teeth? Still, I think it's nice to know that painful debilitating dental disease is not a necessary part of life and we can each decide how we will make the trade-offs that are necessary between eating a diet that is affordable and convenient enough to fit our lives and spending the amount of time, effort and expense on keeping our oral tissues in excellent condition on a daily basis.

As to the interproximal caries (the cavities between your teeth), they can only be seen in the x-rays and while it may seem unfortunate to have to drill through sound enamel to get to the decay, sound enamel that has been undermined by decay is susceptible to fracture off on its own if the underlying decay becomes bad enough.

You might see if your dentist has an intra-oral camera he or she can use to show you pictures of the areas of concern. Also you could ask them to point out the decay they found on your x-rays.

[checkinguy]

You could probably have a diet of soda pop and doughnuts and still avoid tooth decay but you would have to be fastidious about your oral health routine. You would follow each acidic insult by immediately chewing some sugar free gum (preferably with xylitol) to stimulate saliva and quickly raise the pH. Then you would floss thoroughly around each side of each tooth. Finally you would brush with a fluoride containing dentifrice. To follow up you might apply a remineralizing product like MI Paste to the teeth after the final brushing of the day. On a regular basis (frequency to be determined by your periodontal condition and speed of tartar buildup) you would be seen for professional cleanings.

Seems to make sense.

IMO -
The main problem for most of us is the acid from what we are eating - this weakens our enamel and allows the complex bacterial colony/plaque to make inroads on our teeth..
Best thing is to check carefully what you are eating/drinking and analyze if it is acidic (ice tea, fruit juice, sodas, citrus fruits etc) possibly do a search to find how acidic the foods are that you are eating - after each time you have exposed your teeth to acidic challenge - take something that restores the ph - xylitol is great for this, or alkaline foods or brushing of course.
Perhaps you want to research some tooth pastes - I use Crest regular - said to be the right balance with abrasives. The MI pastes seem good too.
Personally, I try to get 6 grams of xylitol a day, do a brush/rinse twice a day. If you use mouthwash (it's acidic) - make sure to follow up with a fluoride rinse. (.05% sodium fluoride.. seems best)

For opinions on the several small cavities - perhaps you can ask around for a recommenced dentist and see him/her for a second opinion.

[ajnast4r]

closys, novamin, fluoride

[infinityXme]

I use a waterpik as frequently as possible. It probably won't reverse existing damage caused by dental cavies, but it's superior to conventional flossing. After brushing and flossing I use my waterpik and it's amazing all the food particles that flush out.

Edited by infinityXme, 18 October 2010 - 07:18 AM.

[shp5]

I've been on a (virtually) no sugar diet for 5 weeks, and I've been doing Dr. Ellies regime (lots of Xylitol powder, and 3 different oral rinses ) for 3 weeks.

Results are fantastic, for weeks I haven't seen ANY plaque on my teeth.
Today, I noticed a 1mm-thin translucent layer between my upper gums and teeth, I guess a sort of physiological protective film. makes me very happy.

lower gums still in a poor shape, with visible dentin at the border of the gum. at least there is no plaque forming in this area.
I've been thinking about using hyaluronic acid and/or Q10 in this area. Will see about that.

[goatz]

+1 for dr ellies regime. (clean white teeth)

just make sure it is being followed correctly.

The rinses and toothpaste are the ones rx'ed.
No water is involved through the procedure

Been on this for over a year now and there is no going back..

[JLL]

I'm pretty sure my saliva is very acidic, I just get that feeling in my mouth and teeth all the time. And I've had cavities all my life, though much less ever since I went on a paleo-ish diet.

What REALLY affects body/saliva pH? I've read numerous articles and they all say different things. They have these lists of "acid vs. alkaline-forming foods", and then one page will have bananas on the acidic list and the next one will have bananas on the alkaline list. It all seems very unscientific. Anyone have any proper info on this subject?

[motif]

I have some general questions about dental hygiene. I figured that for someone who seeks longevity it must be essential to keep good, healthy teeth. Unfortunately I had TOO good teeth until I was like 20, even so I always had a very sloopy dental health regime. I maybe brushed my teeth once every other day, but I never had a whole until I was like 20. I guess my good teeth came from flour pills my mother gave me as a child, because thats the only special thing I can remember teeth with.

You meant fluoride I believe? anyway fluoride is a poison and have no good impact on teeth at all.
This is one of big lies of dentists industry. If your diet is good, close to paleo it doesn't even matter if you brush your teeth or not.

[kurdishfella]

Try Hgh, igf 1 and dopamine etc for teeth health,size. strenghth etc. also increases nails and skin thickness and eyes and everything nose look finer bigger lips. biggerthicker body too and bicep curv and finer n longer hairs.better breath skin. stronger bone connection to nerves fingers toes. and neck.

Edited by kurdishfella, 03 April 2021 - 09:07 AM.

[kurdishfella]

white gunk in mouth is good it means your immune system is covering the bad bacteria and neutralizing it so it cant multiply etc. but it also means you have infection or what not. Teeth whitening is bad because it is just temporary and it also destroys other parts of your teeth's.  Address the issue why is my mouth hygiene bad? Its because of my health. So what am I missing in my life style to improve my health? Also brushing too much can wear the teeth down and toothpaste also destroy not only bad bacteria but good. mouthwash is a temporary solution to a long term problem. Flossing creates space between teeth which means your nerves get damaged and eventually nerve loss and which creates a space for bacteria build up and decreased natural cleansing  by bodys immune system,

[kurdishfella]

yeah it can affect breathing and rest of body. injecting vitamin c doesn't seem to work against gut health thus teeth but only oral washing.

[kurdishfella]

Health. Health affects teeth the most thats the secret. the human mouth is the most active thing 'outside' of the body and reseptable to change fast always changing and active

[kurdishfella]

I avoid dentist they ruined my teeth. and I use good fluorine free toothpaste thats not absorbed in mouth