17 replies to this topic

[Eternal Existence]

Is the Omega Point Theory a valid offshot of the Transhumanist movement or is it a worthless apologetic attempt to fit transhumanism into the Judeo-Christian religious mold where it does not belong?

I am unsure. While I agree with the statement that Tipler is trying too hard to appease the Christian right and invent an Omega Point "Theology", I can see how the theory can be integrated with transhumanist aims.

[AgentNyder]

I don't believe there's anything wrong with it. Atheism creates a spiritual chasm, and as you can see, is not as popular as Theism. The Omega Point gives us a rationalist religion, though I do have a few problems with the theory myself and it's supposed "inevitability". Don't we have free will? I'm also skeptical that God would find it worthy to resurrect the entire history of the universe in a simulation. What purpose would this achieve? Again, I'm skeptical about this point.

But if there is a positive destiny of the ultimate fate of the universe, it is the Omega Point. And if that can give hope, then there is nothing wrong with it.

[Teixeira]

Is the Omega Point Theory a valid offshot of the Transhumanist movement or is it a worthless apologetic attempt to fit transhumanism into the Judeo-Christian religious mold where it does not belong?

I am unsure. While I agree with the statement that Tipler is trying too hard to appease the Christian right and invent an Omega Point "Theology", I can see how the theory can be integrated with transhumanist aims.

It´s a very interesting theory when we work on the mathematics of immortality. When I made research on the subject (I still do), it was tremendous when I discover that Prof. Tipler came to the same conclusion than I, regardind the fundamental singularity where the parameters must be: entropy = 0 and information = infinite. Prof. Tipler also demonstrate how an infinite amount of information can be given in a finite interval of time (taking y = tan x in the interval between - 3.14/2 and +3.14/2).
On the other hand, I don´t agree with Tipler regarding the role of computers in his theory.

Edited by Teixeira, 23 January 2010 - 10:54 PM.

[hotamali]

The theory is very plausible and seems to be the natural ultimate goal of the singularity, unlimited computing power for a subjective eternity. It really saddens me that he wrote another book about how OPT is in conjunction with Christianity. It really takes away any credibility that the theory would have with most scientists.

As for Omega Point God resurrecting humanity, his logic for this is shaky. But if I had control over unlimited computing power, I'd figure Hell, why not.

[Teixeira]

The theory is very plausible and seems to be the natural ultimate goal of the singularity, unlimited computing power for a subjective eternity. It really saddens me that he wrote another book about how OPT is in conjunction with Christianity. It really takes away any credibility that the theory would have with most scientists.

As for Omega Point God resurrecting humanity, his logic for this is shaky. But if I had control over unlimited computing power, I'd figure Hell, why not.

Pherhaps Prof. Tipler belong to those who think that reality is unique. That means that it is impossible to have two versions of the same subject, where one is true for science and the other is true for religion. So, he probably is searching for truth weather it is on science or the Bible or in both sides!?

[ben951]

The Omega Point gives us a rationalist religion, though I do have a few problems with the theory myself and it's supposed "inevitability". Don't we have free will? I'm also skeptical that God would find it worthy to resurrect the entire history of the universe in a simulation. What purpose would this achieve? Again, I'm skeptical about this point.

As for Omega Point God resurrecting humanity, his logic for this is shaky. But if I had control over unlimited computing power, I'd figure Hell, why not.

He says that it's inevitable because we will be a part of the history of those "future being".

And "they" will need total knowledge and historical knowledge is part of it.

Edited by ben951, 29 January 2010 - 06:40 PM.

[hotamali]

Well, considering the fact that Tipler postulates a God with endless capabilities, I don't see why it wouldn't simulate every possible strain of existence that can ever be conceived. Ones that did exist at some point (liek humans) or ones that never existed but could have in principle.

[ben951]

I haven't red all his writing so I might be missing something but even though there is similitude's with the concept of god in the bible and the omega point there is also major differences.

The universe retract an future intelligent being become more and more powerful and more and more connected to the point where they become a unique consciousness with unlimited power the :omega point.

So basically we will create and become god not the other way around like it's described in the bible or the Koran.

So it makes even more sense that "they" (us) will want perfect knowledge of their ancestors.

And the best way to do that would be a perfect simulation down to the quantum level.

I'm not saying if I believe in it... or not.

I can see some similitude's with the technological singularity (Vernor Vinge, Kurweil) the omega point being the final singularity.

Then again I might be missing something since I haven't red everything he wrote.
He talks about it there mainly at the end of the second part.

http://www.closertot...ank-Tipler-/750

http://www.closertot...ank-Tipler-/751

Edited by ben951, 30 January 2010 - 01:28 PM.

[hotamali]

I feel compelled to buy into this as is seems the only way for life to escape maximum entropy i.e. The Heat Death.

[melly_d]

A bunch of limited beings, even with very cool abilities that can get ever more powerful, can do just that. No limited number of things can ever add up to something infinite, so we can never become any kind of god. Oh well.

[hotamali]

A bunch of limited beings, even with very cool abilities that can get ever more powerful, can do just that. No limited number of things can ever add up to something infinite, so we can never become any kind of god. Oh well.

The point is that as our descendants approach the final singularity, energy and information diverges to infinity as the amount of proper time left in the universe reaches zero. The universe, which is now an infinitley small infinitley powerful quantum computer, will in its transcendance be infinitley powerful. But at any moment within the system the information is going to infinity as t and the volume of the universe gets forever closer to zero.

Then again I might be missing something since I haven't red everything he wrote.
He talks about it there mainly at the end of the second part.

http://www.closertot...ank-Tipler-/750

http://www.closertot...ank-Tipler-/751

Heh, I've never seen or heard Tipler before this video. He seems like a nice, jolly guy, like the physicist version of Santa.

Edited by hotamali, 16 February 2010 - 11:20 PM.

[Luna]

Weird fantasy, I hope we find a better way to save the universe.
I find quantum archaeology very doubtful.

[chris w]

Voted unsure. I think the Omega Point Theory MAY PERHAPS have something going on, but on a more practical side I also think that we should keep this our little dirty transhumanist secret . Right now people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea of living to 130, so I guess it wouldn't be wise to introduce to the scene a concept of "ressurecting the dead in a quantum computer simulation".

Besides, I don't really know, but wouldn't this ressurected entities be more like, eemm, metaphysical clones of those long dead ? They might absolutely resemble them, but it wouldn't be like somebody waking up after a million years and saying "Cool, so I'm back again", right ? or no ?

Edited by chris w, 21 April 2010 - 08:06 PM.

[hotamali]

Voted unsure. I think the Omega Point Theory MAY PERHAPS have something going on, but on a more practical side I also think that we should keep this our little dirty transhumanist secret <img src='http://www.imminst.o..._DIR#>/whis.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':|w' /> . Right now people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea of living to 130, so I guess it wouldn't be wise to introduce to the scene a concept of "ressurecting the dead in a quantum computer simulation".

Very good point. I have many a time tried to introduce this idea to people and got stuck at the "how can computers think" part...

Besides, I don't really know, but wouldn't this ressurected entities be more like, eemm, metaphysical clones of those long dead ? They might absolutely resemble them, but it wouldn't be like somebody waking up after a million years and saying "Cool, so I'm back again", right ? or no ?

Now were getting into the "just a copy" debate... I'm sure there were a few good threads on that around here somewhere...

[neue regel]

B. pseudo-science :0

[Tet Omeg]

For details on the Omega Point cosmology, see my below article:

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), December 22, 2011 (orig. pub. December 19, 2011), 185 pp. http://ssrn.com/abstract=1974708 , http://theophysics.c...sics-of-God.pdf , http://www.webcitation.org/647p0tJfa , MD5: 24ffbb18de793699141ac9ad34f56498

Below is the abstract to my above article:

""
ABSTRACT: Analysis is given of the Omega Point cosmology, an extensively peer-reviewed proof (i.e., mathematical theorem) published in leading physics journals by professor of physics and mathematics Frank J. Tipler, which demonstrates that in order for the known laws of physics to be mutually consistent, the universe must diverge to infinite computational power as it collapses into a final cosmological singularity, termed the Omega Point. The theorem is an intrinsic component of the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) describing and unifying all the forces in physics, of which itself is also required by the known physical laws. With infinite computational resources, the dead can be resurrected--never to die again--via perfect computer emulation of the multiverse from its start at the Big Bang. Miracles are also physically allowed via electroweak quantum tunneling controlled by the Omega Point cosmological singularity. The Omega Point is a different aspect of the Big Bang cosmological singularity--the first cause--and the Omega Point has all the haecceities claimed for God in the traditional religions.

From this analysis, conclusions are drawn regarding the social, ethical, economic and political implications of the Omega Point cosmology.
""

[Tet Omeg]

For details on the Omega Point cosmology, see my following article (available via a web-search):

James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), December 22, 2011 (orig. pub. December 19, 2011), 185 pp.; 2,375,597 bytes, MD5: 24ffbb18de793699141ac9ad34f56498 .

Below is the abstract to my above article:

""
ABSTRACT: Analysis is given of the Omega Point cosmology, an extensively peer-reviewed proof (i.e., mathematical theorem) published in leading physics journals by professor of physics and mathematics Frank J. Tipler, which demonstrates that in order for the known laws of physics to be mutually consistent, the universe must diverge to infinite computational power as it collapses into a final cosmological singularity, termed the Omega Point. The theorem is an intrinsic component of the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) describing and unifying all the forces in physics, of which itself is also required by the known physical laws. With infinite computational resources, the dead can be resurrected--never to die again--via perfect computer emulation of the multiverse from its start at the Big Bang. Miracles are also physically allowed via electroweak quantum tunneling controlled by the Omega Point cosmological singularity. The Omega Point is a different aspect of the Big Bang cosmological singularity--the first cause--and the Omega Point has all the haecceities claimed for God in the traditional religions.

From this analysis, conclusions are drawn regarding the social, ethical, economic and political implications of the Omega Point cosmology.
""

[steampoweredgod]

My 2 cents regarding omega appear in the following thread linked
lain=jesus=zelda=reiayanami=god=alpha=omega

2nd cent memory locked hyper protected from vandalism thread
Spaghetti, God of String , God of Sounds, Eru Iluvatar, Elohim, L. LeLouch

Edited by steampoweredgod, 29 March 2012 - 09:27 PM.