<Gordon> topic says we're supposed to be -5
<Gordon> in which case the chat is 44 minutes in
<Ziana> nope
<Mangala> this whole time thing is too confusing
<Ziana> ~sigh~... just go to http://www.time.gov/...stern/d/-5/java
<Ziana> when that thing says 8pm, it's time
<Gordon> hmm, but -5 is in the central time zone right now
<Gordon> my time is -4 from GMT
<Mangala> neway Eliezer are u there cuz i have a question for u
<Gordon> unless they have daylight savings time in England, in which case I'm all mixed up
<Eliezer> I'm here briefly
<Eliezer> may want to eat breakfast at some point
<Mangala> they don't have daylight savings in England?
<Mangala> umm
<Ziana> no, CST is -6.
<Eliezer> was that your question?
<Mangala> did u read the fanfic on the singularity website in which everyone gets an angel?
<Ziana> lol
<Eliezer> what? where? who?
<Gordon> yes, but it's not CST, it's CDT
<Gordon> just like right now I'm in EDT, not EST
<Mangala> lol...i mean did u ever go to Assinimov's singularity website
<MichaelA> a story written by Mike Deering that is chilling in the fanfic section of my old SDF
<Mangala> yea
<MichaelA> Anissimov*
<Mangala> sorry
<MichaelA> lol
<Mangala> but did u ever read it?
<Eliezer> probably not
<nrv8> Eliezer: shes gonna come visit this irc network soon
<nrv8> Eliezer: are you excited!?
<Mangala> mmm...my question was related to that story, nm
<MichaelA> you can ask it
<MichaelA> I've read the story
* Gordon thinks time zones are crazy and everyone should just use GMT and get used to the time not matching the sun
<Gordon> Eliezer, you don't have to leave the computer to have breakfast other than to get it out of the kitchen
<Mangala> well, i wanted to know if he supported the idea of that utopia being the end result of the singularity
<Ziana> gordon- (re: CDT/EDT, not CST/EST) ah, yes, you're right... forgot about that... i agree about GMT ;-)
<Eliezer> incorrect, if I need a knife and a fork and a plate, I might as well just use the kitchen
<Gordon> what kind of breakfast are you planning to eating?
<MichaelA> I rarely need any of those things
<Eliezer> fish
<Mangala> was that an answer?
<MichaelA> Mangala: I think he isn't so sure on it
<Mangala> ok
<Eliezer> to quote Michael Raimondi quoting me, it's best not to expect anything except a large amount of unspecified fun
<Mangala> cuz if it was his eventual goal, it makes finding the singularity seem almost...futile
<Gordon> that's an odd breakfast food
<Gordon> I realize it's odd for historical reasons (no one is out fishing in the middle of the night to have morning fish for you when you weak up)
<Eliezer> utopia is futile...? what an odd idea
<Mangala> well i mean it feeds into the human need for pleasure
<Mangala> but is constant pleasure the eventual goal?
<Eliezer> okay, straightforward objection, straightforward answer:
<Eliezer> if you become *smarter*
<Eliezer> that is philosophically significant
<Mangala> ...
<Eliezer> agreed?
<Mangala> yes
<Eliezer> for more complex speculation, see http://sysopmind.com.../funtheory.html
<Mangala> ...ok
* Eliezer afks for breakfast
<Gordon> thinking about it, eating breakfast at this time of day, fish is perfectly acceptable
<Mangala> what?
<Mangala> cyu guys later
<Gordon> the only problem is that Atlanta is far enough inland that I'd question the freshness of the fish
* Gordon only eats super fresh fish, because he cannot stand the fishy smell fish gets after just a few hours at all
<AlonzoTG> om
<Gordon> leaving your own chat just when it starts? tsk tsk
<Gordon> wait, sorry, this is really BJKlein's chat, isn't it
<Ziana> lol
<Ziana> yes it is
<Gordon> interesting that everyone shuts up once it's supposed to start
* nrv8 wants to cry
<nrv8> ggggggggg
<Gordon> nrv8 seems very emotional tonight
<nrv8> um yea
<nrv8> this girl
<nrv8> is
<nrv8> beig
<nrv8> being
<nrv8> very
<nrv8> i cant even think of a word for it
<nrv8> mean
<nrv8>
<nrv8> shes so sensitive
<nrv8> but i am too
<nrv8> and she doesnt realize.
<Gordon> yeah, emotions suck
<Gordon> if it makes you feel any better, you probably don't realize either if you're doing something to hurt her
<nrv8> im going to write her a letter
<nrv8> but im not sure
<nrv8> if i should setup a guilt trip
<nrv8> to get through to her
<Gordon> no
<nrv8> k
<nrv8> not even a littl/e
<Gordon> not at all
<Gordon> unless there is real guilt, and even then I wouldn't point it out
<nrv8> she stopped talking to me 2 years ago..
<nrv8> i gave her
<nrv8> TWO YEARS of space
<nrv8> we started talking again in june
<nrv8> and it was greatttttt
<nrv8> then she stopped talking to me again
<nrv8> for 2months
<novaeris> if you are having that much of a problem with a relationship with a girl then you should just cut all interaction - why suffer?
<nrv8> until today
<nrv8> there isnt much interaction
<nrv8> heh
<novaeris> then cut her out of your life
<Gordon> weird
<nrv8> noooooooooooooooooooooooooo
<novaeris> & be free from it all
<nrv8> i cant though
<nrv8> it'll take a longg time
<novaeris> well then you will continue to suffer & yiou have to accept that
<novaeris> you can - you just might not want to
<Gordon> it's actually easier than you might think
<novaeris> how old are you anyways?
<nrv8> 19
<nrv8> i've been in relationships before
<nrv8> but all i want from this girl now is a friendship
<novaeris> oh brother....
<nrv8> and maybe she doesnt realize
<nrv8> oh brother?!
<nrv8> ;PP
<novaeris> you are too young to be wasting time with such things
<nrv8> yea
<nrv8> shes 17..
<novaeris> there are many other people you can make friends with
<Gordon>
<novaeris> UGH!!!!
<nrv8> yup
<nrv8> shes a bit immature
<Gordon> ouch, jail bait
<nrv8> when she cant deal with things, she'll just stop talking to me
<Gordon> nrv8 is going to the big house
<nrv8> eh
<nrv8> wtf you talkin about
<nrv8>
<nrv8> i dont have any bad intentions
<novaeris> 16 is the legal age of consent anyhow
<Gordon> because she is a minor, if you had sex with her, it would legally be rape whether the sex was consentual or not
<nrv8> i dont want to have sex with er
<nrv8> her
<nrv8> but you had to bring it up didnt you
<nrv8>
* crw sighs
<nrv8> crw
<nrv8> ;P
<nrv8> get the drinks?
<Gordon> of course; there's no action going on around here :-P
<novaeris> what does CTCP action mean?
<novaeris> I never used this before
<crw> yup. coke, lemonade iced tea, and grapefruit soda. yum.
<nrv8> client to client protocol
<novaeris> what does that mean?
<nrv8> you can fun various commands
<nrv8> like version
<nrv8> ping
<nrv8> time
<nrv8> finger
<nrv8> lets you find out things about a person
<novaeris> like what?
<nrv8> which client they use
<nrv8> what their ping reply is
<nrv8> etc
<novaeris> okay I am ignorant of these things so I guess it does not matter
<Gordon> sticking around this time, Ziana?
<Gordon> is anyone else experiencing weird behavior from the server tonight?
<Gordon> I will get no messages for 30 seconds sometimes and then they all come in at once
<Ziana> gordon- (re: sticking around) hopefully ;-)
<nrv8> gordon
<nrv8>
)<Ziana> (re: msg delay) that would be lag...
<crw> readg to move to the city yet, z?
<Ziana> lol
<nrv8> crw
<nrv8> she dropped a bomb shell on me
<nrv8> :(
<Gordon> what? she's really a man?
<Ziana> lol
<Ziana> certainly not
<Gordon> huh, wait, who's nrv8 talking about?
<nrv8> ;/
<nrv8> crw
<nrv8> how about
<nrv8> at the end of the letter i give her some space
<nrv8> er
* nrv8 punches something
<Eliezer> incidentally, I have to go AFK to eat again, but thanks, Gordon, for making it officially true that I CANNOT EAT BREAKFAST without someone analyzing it
<Eliezer> not that I mind
* Gordon is now totally confused
<Ziana> lol
<nrv8> lol
<Eliezer> <Gordon> that's an odd breakfast food
<Eliezer> <Gordon> I realize it's odd for historical reasons (no one is out fishing in the middle of the night to have morning fish for you when you weak up)
<Gordon> Second Breakfast already? Eliezer is some kind of super hobbit!
<Eliezer> no, same breakfast
<Ziana> lol
* Gordon is a fan of second breakfast, so long as first breakfast is small
<crw> so are any of you, besides Eliezer, in the atlanta area?
<Gordon> of course not! we don't want to leave near freaks like him!!! :-PPP
<Ziana> hiya yed, wb michael
<yed> hi ziana
<yed> so what new?
<MichaelA> thanks
<AlonzoTG> om
<nrv8> grr that om is annoying
<nrv8>
<Gordon> IIRC, there is a list of new age words somewhere
<Gordon> the entry for `om' is funny
* Gordon can just see everyone hitting google right now ;-)
<nrv8> nah
<nrv8> i dont care
<nrv8> :D
<caliban> actually ist more AUM (my two pennies of comment)
<caliban> ist= it is
<Gordon> the whole thing of anyone saying `om' is ridiculous and mixed up
<MichaelA> hehe
* MichaelA afks until chat
<nrv8>
<Gordon> my guess is that someone was taught fake Tao cultivation and told to say the word `om' in meditation and they never realized that they hadn't receive the real teachings ;-)
<yed> so enlighten us regarding true Tao cultivation.
<Gordon> (for those not aware, the Tao School does not offer salvation to all like the Buddha School, but does teach everyone. They just don't teach everyone the real teachings.)
<caliban> well if you hear "AUM" being hummed it does sound an awful lot like "OHM" happened to me to (the two pennies worth of comment)
<yed> Gordon, have you received the true Tao teachings?
<Gordon> no
<Gordon> I'm not engaged in Tao School cultivation
<yed> so why do you think saying om is or is not related to true Tao cultivation?
<Gordon> because most cultivation ways that will allow you to actual advance to enlightenment do not depend on such low level things as chanting (though it is sometimes used as a tool, it is not required)
<yed> so what you are saying is saying om is probably not necessary to actually advance, but perhaps can be useful?
<Gordon> if you are only intersted in low level cultivation
<Gordon> interested
<Gordon> for example, yoga and tai chi are both forms of low level cultivation
<yed> low level in quality or low level in means
<Gordon> you will not achieve enlightenment though them, but you will have more energy and be able to focus your thoughts better if you practice them
<Ziana> wb
<Gordon> it has to do with the discussion of energy (this is going to sound a bit mystical and of course I don't really think that any of this goes on the way it is described, but this is how it's defined)
<Gordon> there is low level energy in the body called qi (chi)
<yed> please explain what you mean 'level', 'low level'.
<Gordon> this is the energy that flows through you in this dimension
<Gordon> it is only related to your physical being
<yed> so what kinds of things would be 'high level', 'middle level' etc.
<Gordon> no matter how much qi you develop or how well it flows, it will not allow you to increase your level beyond that of the everyday person
<yed> again, what kind of 'level' are you referring to.
<Gordon> there is other energy (gong and dan) that does allow you to increase your level towards enlightenment
<Gordon> in Buddha and Tao Schools, cultivators are referred to as having a level
<Gordon> for the most part it doesn't matter to you what your exact level is
<Gordon> only the range
<yed> matter to you in what way.
<Gordon> for example, whether you are an everyday person, a true cultivator, enlightened (there are more ranges here), or a Buddha, Tao, God, etc.
<Ziana> hiya
<Gordon> well, for one thing you can't properly judge your own level, since you have to be at a much higher level to accurately gauge lower levels
<yed> levels of what.
<bk_2112> hi
<yed> cultivation of what.
<Gordon> oh, your energy level
<Gordon> specifically, the amount of gong you've accumulated
<Gordon> gong is high level energy (so is dan)
<Gordon> of yourself
<yed> what is meant by energy
<Gordon> you know, energy, the force that makes things go
<Gordon> it's all rather complex; you should pick up a book at some point
<yed> something like electromagnetism, nuclear and gravity forces?
<Gordon> well, not exactly
<Gordon> this is more of a supernatural kind of force
<Gordon> (I told you it doesn't make all that much sense in reality)
<yed> what does supernatural mean to you.
<novaeris> I thought there was some electromagnetic energy involved but I very well may be mistaken
<Gordon> well, there have been some studies
<Gordon> not the best ever, though
<Gordon> anyway, you should not worry about your energy level
<Gordon> it is taken care of by your master
<Gordon> you only have to worry about cultivating yourself
<Gordon> that is, so long as you have a real master who is teach a true cultivation way
<yed> do you have a real master?
<Gordon> yes, I think so
<Gordon> I practice Falun Dafa and, like all Falun Dafa practicioners, my master is Master Li
<yed> could you tell us in your own words what Falun Dafa is?
* Gordon has to be going shopping; will continue this later
<yed> hmm, that was getting interesting.
<caliban> I hope Gordon is not Chinese?
<novaeris> googling
<novaeris> ....
<caliban> Does anyone here have a view on suicide?
<yed> what's the question?
<caliban> is suicide ethically permissible
<caliban> ?
<novaeris> oh no...
<yed> in my system of ethics, sure, why not
<yed> why, do you want to suicide?
<novaeris> yed|: have you ever killed yourself?
<caliban> Yed: how would you label your system of ethics?
<yed> caliban: "yed's temporary system of personal ethics". how would you label yours?
<yed> novaeris: what do you mean?
<novaeris> ahah. I just think its silly to comment on things like that
<caliban> YED: "calibans system of aestehic contractarian existentialism"
<yed> sounds sophisticated
<yed> so tell us about your system, caliban.
<caliban> well actually i wanted to explore different views of suicide and how that relates to the underlying view of the value of live- and i agree it is silly to ask , but not to silly novaerissilly
<caliban> -silly
<yed> well, I think the consensus view on value of life is really weird.
<yed> I mean, when a few thousand people die on september 11th, it's a big thing.
<yed> but when in africa millions of people die in civil wars, hunger, aids, it's not such a big deal.
<yed> we don't see the world dropping everything and doing something about it.
<caliban> i am not sure wether that has to do with a "consensus view"
<novaeris> suicide is very very selfish
<novaeris> thats about the only thing I can offer with any degree of certainty
<yed> novaeris: what if ones presence in the world causes only grief to ver and others, then why is suiciding selfish?
<novaeris> I dont see how that could ever be possible - that a person could cause only greif to all they encounter
<yed> caliban: by consensus view i mean the emphasis shown on world media and 'on the street'.
<novaeris> so your hypothetical situation is flawed
<novaeris>
<yed> novaeris: a sick, currently incurable orphan who is in terrible pain.
<caliban> Heidegger said that only death and birth are truly authentic to the self becaus you cannot have a prxy for these. So why would "selfishness" in suicide be bad?
<caliban> prxy= proxy
<novaeris> heidegger was also a f***ing nazi
<novaeris> but
<novaeris> as far as the orphan
<yed> brb
<novaeris> Im sure someone would be caring for the child & would care if they died
<novaeris> unnaturally
<caliban> and suicide is unnatural?
<novaeris> yes
<caliban> why?
<novaeris> its not progressive - its completely counterintuitive - natural human instinct should be self-preservation, no?
<AlonzoTG> there is no such thing as "natural".
<novaeris> well I guess I did paint myself into a corner with that one
<Davidov> Everything is natural!
<bk_2112> "natural human instincts" are enough to convince many that death by aging is "natural" & therefore OK
<AlonzoTG> exactly.
<caliban> nova: one could disagee but let us presume it was correct - why is it preferable to have natural ocurences?
<Davidov> Anything and everything possible has to be natural.
<Davidov> So, in a since, the world is useless
<novaeris> thats why I know Im caught - I dont agree with what my useage of the word "natural" implies
<Davidov> word *
<Davidov> sense *!!!
<novaeris> in fact, I agree with you all on this
<Davidov> My word syntax is really getting messed up!
<novaeris> then I take it back - there is NOTHING I can say with any degree of certainty on the topic
<novaeris> ahahah
<novaeris> except
<novaeris> I dont think its a very good idea
<Davidov> We don't know what is natural, and unnatural, because we don't know what can happen and what can't happen.
<Davidov> Unless we somehow become omniscient, which I don't see how.
<caliban> Nova: ok- out of the corner then...
Why don't you think it is a good idea? <caliban> hello?
<novaeris> aorry
<novaeris> why dont I think its a good idea?
<yed> well caliban, what do you think about suicide, or more importantly why do you think about suicide?
<caliban> yed: as i said, i am trying to examine different moral theories about how the view life and one venue is looking at how the view suicide and euthanasia
<novaeris> I would say give it a try & then see what you think
<caliban> nova: i do not understand your last comment?
<novaeris> Im sorry - I guess I mean to propose a thought experiment
<novaeris> put yourself in a situation where you think you would commit suicide or something
<yed> well i think people do not have a 'value of life' in general, they have value of "my life", value of "friends life", value of "people in africa" etc.
<novaeris> then think of all the possible consequences of that action
<novaeris> that may help you evaluate it more wholistically
<AlonzoTG> BTW: anyone have any immortality ideas that don't involve killing yourself with nanites?
<novaeris> THANKYOU ALONZO!
<caliban> nova: well I know what I think about it... but that does not help me too much with the views of other moral theories
<novaeris> ahahha
<novaeris> I think morals are too sticky
<Ziana> brb
<novaeris> If you want to kill yourself, then go for it (not you personally but you know what I mean) I dont see what it has to do with anything.
<caliban> nova: morals might be sticky, but 1) thats what i am working on and 2) morals are the ground on which immortality is constantly opposed
<yed> caliban, give us an opposition argument based on morals.
<caliban> yed: opposition to what? to suicide or to immortality?
<yed> whichever.
<caliban> well, i have not yet found a single major thaery in favor of sucicide, so that one should be easy..
<yed> go ahead.
<caliban> what do you want? utilitarianism? faith-based? deontological?
<yed> well, I come from a religious jewish background, so i can formulate that position:
<Eliezer> oh, for christ's sake
<Davidov> Utilitirianistic happiness!
<caliban> hi zianna
<Eliezer> nobody here knows why death is a bad thing?
<Eliezer> including suicide?
<Davidov> hahahaha Eliezer, you poor soul you
<yed> god created you, therefore your body belongs to Him, and he wants jews not to kill themselves cause they've got work to do in the world.
<Eliezer> how about... life is good, death is bad, suicide is death, therefore suicide is bad
<yed> Eliezer: what do you mean by 'bad'?
<Eliezer> I may respect your right to make your own mistakes, but that shouldn't be confused with the mistakes themselves
<yed> ?
<novaeris> eliezer - thankyou for simplifying that in a way that I could not
<caliban> yed: so you would confirm that judaism is very opposed to suicide and to euthanasia?
<yed> simply stating axioms is not what caliban is looking for.
<yed> caliban: yes.
<yed> in halachik judaism there are only few cases where one may give up his life:
<novaeris> but if killing yourself is not productive in anyway what can it be *good* for? it is fruitless!
<caliban> Eliezer- why do you believe "life" is "good" ?
<novaeris> there is no *progress*
<Davidov> Death is inherently bad because there is possibly a infinity (or very very very) good reward in the future - but then there is also risk that there is a infinitly bad future. So death by any means still neutral.
<yed> to avoid idol worship, adultery and murder. thats it.
<Eliezer> caliban: because I'm not aware of anything else that can fit the category "good", and because if there *is* anything else, it seems likely that life would be a better way than death to achieve it
<novaeris> I dont like this topic
<novaeris> it makes me sad
<Eliezer> that doesn't necessarily make it a bad topic
<novaeris> I know
<Eliezer> but that could certainly be Yuzuriha's answer
<caliban> yed: yes. and the position is even harsher regrading euthanasia
<novaeris> brb - I need a cookie
<yed> well, there are two kinds of euthanasia: active and passive.
<caliban> Eliezer: so you would side with the people who think that life is good, because it gives you the opportunity to value something (just guesssing)
<yed> active is not permissible according to most of the recent authorities, passive is permmissible according to half, iirc. of course we are talking only case of serious pain, incurable disease.
<caliban> Novaeris: I am sorry, would you like to suggest a more cheerfull topic?
<yed> active is smothering for example, passive is unhooking the respirator.
<yed> unplugging.
<Davidov> In permanent existential death there is no chance of attaining the epitome of good. There is also a chance of attaining the epitome of bad, whatever it is. So life is a gamble, only those who want to succeed have a chance to.
* caliban is seriously out of sync again
<Davidov> also no chance *
<caliban> yed: from Semachot: “A ”gossess“ [a person who is in the process of dying] is regarded as a living entity in respect of all matters of the world" (...) "We may not close the eyes of a dying person. (...) whoever touches him [and thereby hastens his death] is guilty of shedding blood.”
<yed> caliban: right, this is active euthinasia.
<caliban> yed: as I understand it there was some dispute about this... how to interpret "touching" and "hastening" in the middle ages people said that even the passive forms wer covered by this, but there are divided view on the topic now?
<caliban> Eliezer: has Davidov answered my question for you?
<novaeris> Im back - I had a yogurt bar instead.
<yed> well this is not the only source, but maybe they argue on this too, don't know. if you want, i can send you an article on it, my father wrote one.
<Davidov> If I did, it was unintentional, caliban
<Eliezer> [Eliezer] caliban: because I'm not aware of anything else that can fit the category "good", and because if there *is* anything else, it seems likely that life would be a better way than death to achieve it
<caliban> Novaeris: you can still suggest a topic that you would prefer?
<yed> Eliezer: good can be a life less than xx% suffering.
<caliban> Eliezer: so you wrote, and i posed a question about that above...
<novaeris> caliban: its okay I have to go to sleep now - I have a long drive home in the morning
<Davidov> If you want to achieve no happiness then death is a good option, but I don't see a ultimate reason for such, unless you're tortured by the fact that you can't know everything, and eternally pisses you off, so you have to kill yourself
<novaeris> but thankyou
<novaeris> BUT if you really want to know everything that badly
<Eliezer> <caliban> Eliezer: so you would side with the people who think that life is good, because it gives you the opportunity to value something (just guesssing)
<Eliezer> ?
<novaeris> you will try your damndest to learn it all
<novaeris> rather than giving up so easily
<novaeris>
<Davidov> Yeah I know, just some people are really really really down about things like that
<caliban> Eliezer: yes that one
<caliban> Nova: way to go!
<Davidov> goodnight nova
<Eliezer> No, I'm saying that of all the things I know that might have intrinsic value, life is both one of them in itself, and necessary to other things such as joy and truth
<novaeris> nite all!
<Eliezer> if you speculate that other presently unknown things have value, life would be necessary to them as well
<yed> again, it is not necessarily the case that all life is created equal.
<Eliezer> or at least that seems more likely than the reverse
<Eliezer> that's my answer
<caliban> Eliezer: ok, backtracing to the intrinsic value bit -> why that?
<caliban> Yed: but in Judaism all human life would be sacred?
<Eliezer> because in the absence of anything better, life, joy, and truth seem to be the target selected by those forces that govern my metamoral decisions
<yed> caliban: sacred in terms of giving the ability to fulfill god's will. people tend to leave that out of description of judaism's position
<caliban> Eliezer: and these "forces" should be given the attribute "good" ?
<Eliezer> no, these forces are the ones that I regard as "valid"
<Eliezer> they are not ends in themselves
<Eliezer> they are the means to the end that they themselves select
<Eliezer> because by modeling them I am enabled to perceive the end and work toward it
<caliban> Eliezer: this still sounds rather un-deontological to me... but maybe i have not fully understood your position?
<Davidov> I think it's as logical as base logic thinking goes!
<Davidov> There's not BS along with it
<caliban> Davidov: Are you refering to Eliezers position? I am (at this stage) not questioning the logic. What is BS?
<caliban> Yed: so a human life, that could not (or does not want to) fulfill gods will would not be sacred?
<Davidov> Yes, caliban
<Eliezer> caliban, I can either look at the cognitive forces I'm talking about as the foundational definition of morality
<Eliezer> or I can look at them from a cause-and-effect standpoint
<Eliezer> the two viewpoints coexist
<Eliezer> there are reasons for the metamoral decisions I make
<yed> caliban: yes, strictly speaking, but there are other considerations in setting laws than just pure value of life.
<Eliezer> but they are, under my metamorality, the most valid reasons I know
<Davidov> Life is only good because of the consciousness it creates, which in turn can experience a plethora of emotions
<Davidov> So pure value of life is of little use
<caliban> Eliezer: you would not agee with Davidovs last 2 comments presumably?
<Eliezer> sounds right to me
<Eliezer> when I say "life" I really mean more like "sentience
<Eliezer> "sentience"
<caliban> well then I cannot see how you can advocate an deontological value of "life" - because "the pursuit of hapiness" depends on certain factors that are nit intrinsic to life or sentience
<caliban> nit= not
<Eliezer> ...what?
<Eliezer> I don't understand what your objection is, or why it's an objection
<caliban> Yed: i see your point but at this stage of my research i am merely interessted in the value of life, not in laws (partially) based on it
<yed> ok.
<yed> caliban, why do you care if eliezer advocates a deontological position or not?
<yed> from http://www.missouri....lrnj/deon.html:
<caliban> Eliezer: I was refering to your earlier statement, wher you advocated the intrinsic value of life. It now occurs to me, that you are not in effect adoptinf a deontolgical position but a rather means-ends based one. I am not objecting to that, merely trying to ascertain your view.
<yed> "Roughly, a deontological theory denies in some way that the good or what is of value, always takes priority over the right or duty."
<guy305> 4bla bla bla. life has no true absolute value from the perspective of the universe, only the value that we give it.
* MichaelA agrees
<Eliezer> ...as far as we know
<Eliezer> always add that rider
<MichaelA> So far
<Eliezer> our species is pretty young
<MichaelA> As far as we know there isn't a God
<guy305> is it possible to grow a human body without a brain?
<MichaelA> It is
<guy305> it is?
<caliban> yed: because i want to find out, what his view is. I cannot click that link is it very important?
<MichaelA> (re "our species is pretty young)
<MichaelA> I would guess it would maybe be possible in theory, Guy
<MichaelA> It would be much much easier to do with nanotech than biotech, though
<guy305> nanotech is not viable
<guy305> (at this time)
<yed> caliban: it is a philosophically-technical description of 'deontological ethics'. after reading a few sentences my eyes keep glazing over from strong disinterest
<caliban> Guy: depends what you mean by brain Viable Anencephalic infants are born every day
<Davidov> the best method way to gain a existential advantage is to create a SI. Therefore that we what we should concentrate fully on.
<guy305> 4anecephalic?
<yed> 'should'?
<guy305> 4SI?
<Davidov> Superintelligence - probably a AI
<yed>
<bk_2112> as long as the SI doesn't decide to eat us for spare atoms
<MichaelA> At this time there is no way to grow a human body without a brain
<MichaelA> Unless you grow the body with the brain first then remove it
<Davidov> That is a possible existential risk, but as long as there are malicious people out there, the SI seems more safe than trusting humanity
<guy305> 4of course, but the person might object.
<MichaelA> The "SI killing us" problem is pretty much the same problem that would come up with any smarter-than-human intelligence
<Davidov> Yep, I.E uploading
<MichaelA> If all possible transhuman seeds result in killer transhumans, that would be awful
<bk_2112> what about augmented cyber humans?
<MichaelA> What's the difference between an augmented human and a Friendly AI
<MichaelA> One has a weaker morality
<guy305> 4there's no rational reason to desire to live. if you became super intelligent, you might realize that.
<Davidov> I'm sure there's some difference, but I have a feeling a augmented human would be even more bitchy than a AI
<guy305> 4thus i don't want to be super intelligent, or super rational.
<caliban> guy : anencephalic= skull and the brain hemispheres are absent. It might be borne alive, but will eventually die after a variable period that might extend to several days
<MichaelA> From the perspective of "what should the first transhuman be", it's the same philosophical problem
<bk_2112> but what rational reason is there to desire death?
<guy305> 4no desire to do even move. you'll likely just fall down wherever you are.
<guy305> and not care about anything.
<bk_2112> why?
<yed> toodles.
<guy305> 4if you're intelligent, you'd have to find a reason to want to live.
<guy305> 4or do anything for that matter.
<Davidov> If you don't find a reason to live, guy, that doesn't mean a reason NOT to live
<MichaelA> why would it not be equally necessary to find a reason to not live
<Davidov> A good reason is that there may be a epitome of good, that is not currently comprehensible, but requires you to live
<guy305> 4right, which is why I'd expect myself to just drop to the floor and not bother to move.
<bk_2112> no, you'd just go on living unless you found a reason *not to*- and given DEO, it'd have to be one *hell* of a good one
<Davidov> The only good reason is a eternal hell scenario
* AlonzoTG was thinking about one of his favorite movies: Clash of The Titans. =)
<bk_2112> but how would you know it was eternal?
<Davidov> You may not know, but the point is, if that is what you felt, and believed, then that's a good excuse for suicide
<guy305> 7bk, i disagree. you would only make an action if you had a reason to do it.
<Davidov> Here's a reason: because you enjoy enjoying
<bk_2112> that's true of specific actions, but the motive to live is not any one specific action; it is the necessary grounding for any & all actions, ever
<caliban> Davidov: what about the scenario wher someone says "It might get better, but I dont care right now! is that a good reason?
<Davidov> It is inherently unexplainable, but the only think viably worth pursuing
<BJKlein> hi everyone. Chestnut here. Sorry I have been keeping BJ from you... been showing him another "meaning of life" :o) he should be with you shortly...
<Davidov> If someone desperately did not want to experience at all, then it is a good subjective reason
<Davidov> experience [insert very bad stuff here] *
<guy305> 7a super intelligent person would not enjoy tennis or chess or anything which we find enjoyable
* Eliezer afks
<caliban> Chestnut: sounds like a worthwile lesson to me
<Davidov> That doesn't mean, guy, that he wouldn't enjoy his dreams, or something to that effect
<Davidov> We have no idea what a superintelligence would enjoy, guy, since we aren't one.
<bk_2112> why not? even if true, they would find new enjoyments suited to their enhanced capacity
<BJKlein> (chestnut laughs and totally agrees :o)
<guy305> maybe. just make sure you're not the first to take the super intelligence pill.
<Davidov>
guy<Davidov> I'm sure there'll be someone brave enough
<guy305> no doubt.
* AlonzoTG contemplates how he will make it to the year 2100
<caliban> You all seem to value life because of the capacity for enjoyment - what about other views?
<Davidov> I always thought lucid dreaming was fun, internal dreaming in a SI would probably be even more enjoyable
<Davidov> Other views always lead back to enjoyment
<guy305> in a human brain cell, are organelles being constantly replaced, or are they fairly permanant structures?
<Davidov> Neurons are fairly permanent
<caliban> Davidov: i disagree strongly, not all other views do
<guy305> in other words, would repairing the damaged dna result in a new cell?
<Davidov> Give me a example, caliban
<Davidov> I'm not a expert in it
<Davidov> (guy)
<guy305> me either.
<caliban> guy: depends on the organelle- which one ore you interessted about
<guy305> mitochondria.
<Davidov> dammit, must go
<caliban> mitochondria usually do not continue division in neurons
<guy305> ok.
<caliban> Davidov: Christianity, Idealism, Buddhism, Sex
<guy305> how about the ER?
<guy305> (:caliban)
<caliban> guy: but that is a touchy issue- because the whole division thing with neurons is currently under scrutiny
<guy305> grrr
<caliban> the ER is being rebuild and replaced even in somatic neurons
<guy305> ok cool. So what if all the DNA in the nucleus and the mitochondria was repaired?
<guy305> would that then naturally replace other organelles with purer ones?
<caliban> are you thinking about gene therapy issues here?
<guy305> yeah.
<guy305> to keep cells of the brain useful.
<guy305> er, youthful.
<caliban> well (appart from the fact that gene therapy does not work to well) you would not worry about "un-pure" organelles but more about apoptotic neurons
<caliban> because you cannot replace those
<guy305> neurons only under go apoptosis because they're pre-cancerous, right?
<guy305> so if the DNA was repaired, they wouldn't register as a threat.
<Davidov> Christianity leads back to a comforting idealism. Idealism.. is well the epitome of whatever someone wants (and then believe she'll be happy). Buddhism leads to happiness: the Dahli Lama even wrote a book call the Art of Happiness. Sex is pleasure and enjoyment!
<Davidov> (I was gone)
<caliban> no the undergo apopthosis for all sorts of reasons- sometimes they are killed by microglia (macrophages of the brain)
<guy305> has anyone ever made an attempt on Dahli Lama's life?
<Davidov> Wouldn't know, guy.
<Davidov> I think a reason for living would be the Apetheosis (I think that's how you spell it)
<Davidov> Eliezer, could you give them a URL describing it?
<caliban> Davidov- I think that advocates of thes theories would serously oppose that characterisation
<guy305> caliban, ok, but that much more rare in younger brains than in older ones?
<Davidov> They can oppose it all they want, but everything leads to enjoyment, or otherwise it is bland or even sufferable!
<MichaelA> apotheosis*
<caliban> guy: sure but there is always wear and tear - after puberty its all downhill!
<MichaelA> let me dig up a URL
<MichaelA> http://www.sysopmind...html#apotheosis
<Davidov> It's under the Singulatarian principles, I think
<Davidov> thanks micheal
<guy305> the 'wear in tear' is minimal, the brain could be supplemented with stem cells.
<MichaelA> Singularitarian*
<MichaelA> Michael*
<Davidov> Please shoot me.
<caliban> guy: yes that is why I am so excited about stem cells!
<MichaelA> No problem
<Davidov> I'm ALMOST serious.
<Davidov>
<MichaelA> Stem cells are sort of exciting
<guy305> caliban: me too! that's why bush sucks!
<Davidov> I'll be watching a show from now on, see yaz
<guy305> there's a major stem cell shortage grrr
<caliban> Michael: sorry cannot click on link- if it is important i can type it in?
<caliban> Guy - yes! get rid of that president of yours, and ther might yet be hope for stem cells
<caliban> Davidov: bye, enjoy the show!
* Gordon is finding different people to go to the store with than his roommates ;-)
<MichaelA> you can
<MichaelA> (type it in)
<MichaelA> Which stores do you go to, Gordon? Cooking stores?
<MichaelA> Or, like, food ones
<Gordon> food ones
<Gordon> I needed to go to Publix (that's the most common grocer in Florida)
* MichaelA has a sister and an ex-gf who are both enthusiastic cooks and they shop for food quite much
<Gordon> Publix is quite good and they always have a good, fresh selection
<MichaelA> Interresting name
<caliban> Michael: so it is important? ok
<Gordon> these guys wanted to do their shopping at Wal-Mart, which I know is actually more expensive and has less selection
<guy305> i was looking at a website about crank websites, and bjklein was on there.
<MichaelA> yep
<MichaelA> crank.net
<Gordon> well, I ended up shopping at Wal-Mart and Publix for food and they went to get some food while I ran into Publix
<Gordon> for once, I do wish I had a car
<MichaelA> There are occasional times when I wish I had one
<Gordon> some food to eat immediately
<Gordon> not more food to cook at home %-)
<MichaelA> How often do you eat, Gordon?
<Gordon> every day, Micael
<Gordon> :-P
<Gordon> oops, Michael
<MichaelA> heh
<MichaelA> I am just curious
<MichaelA> To see how much people eat
<MichaelA> Do you snack while you cook?
<Gordon> well, I eat three meals a day
<Gordon> no
<guy305> caliban: what's your occupation?
<Gordon> I'm actually a somewhat stoic person, so I can just ignore being hungry while I'm cooking
<MichaelA> hehe
* MichaelA envisions Gordon stirring a pot with a stern look on his face
<Gordon> hmm, maybe `stoic' has associated ideas that I'm not familiar with
* caliban caliban is dissapointed by Michaels link - typing all that it in for such a load of ...
<MichaelA> Oops
<Gordon> I only say somewhat stoic because I'm good at ignoring pain because there's a reason to; ignoring pleasure is not something that I engage in :-)
<guy305> how do you get that special red star * thing and red text?
<guy305> test
<MichaelA> I rarely experience pain but I am getting much better at ignoring pleasure than I used to be
<Ziana> type /me followed by what you want to say
* guy305 followed by what you want to say
<guy305> ok
<MichaelA> What are your comments on what you read, Caliban?
<caliban> Ziana- you are always watching are you?
* guy305 /me
* Gordon gives instructions to "slash me", finds himself in two pieces
<Ziana> lol
<Ziana> caliban- yep ;-)
<Ziana> guy- type /me does something
<Davidov> The Oblongs are nice
<Gordon> you must be tuned to the same channel as me ;-)
<caliban> Michael- I i did not expect "Singularity" rambling -- I know I should have ... anyway. Not your fault.
<Davidov> hehe Gordon
<Gordon> I'm ready for some Mission Hill, even if they are reruns
<MichaelA> No Caliban, actually you shouldn't have
<Davidov> I don't know if I've seen that one
<MichaelA> I thought the purpose of the link was it give you the definition of "apotheosis"
<caliban> Ziana: may I be curious about yourself?
<MichaelA> I don't just indescriminately dispense links to Singularity rambling for no reason
<Davidov> The root purpose of giving him the definition was tell him the reason for life
<Ziana> caliban- no you mayn't ;-)
<Davidov> was to tell *
<Davidov> At least my reason
* MichaelA makes a note of the word "mayn't"
<Ziana> lol
<Ziana> and now i think i'll end my watching for tonight... ;-)
<Ziana> ta-ta
<guy305> 0test
<bk_2112> g'night Ziana
<guy305> 0HAHA my text is invisible!!!
<caliban> Ziana- ha! than i'll go on speaking unintelligible languages under your watchful eyes :-)
<Gordon> mayn't is not a word according to my computer
<guy305> 8nobody-can-read-this
<Davidov> nobody can read this
<bk_2112> i could:-)
<Gordon> I just read it
<guy305> ...
<caliban> there it quit... :-)
<Lazlo> HI folks
<Davidov> lol I think guy was just testing our maturity, hahahaha
<Lazlo> Hey BJ is there a way to get into chat directly through the new website?
* guy305 not particularly mature
<Gordon> hmm, Merriam-Webster agrees with Ziana, so I guess mayn't is a word, just that my computer doesn't know about it
<Gordon> I realize that I just go here, but I need to get going
<caliban> Lazlo: click on "home" and on "Live discussion"
<Gordon> talk to you guys later
<Lazlo> Thanks Caliban
<Lazlo> I just didn't find it on th efirst perusal
<AlonzoTG> om
<Lazlo> Hey Caliban I like your posts
-irc.lucifer.com:@#immortal- Hermit invited LogLady into channel #immortal.
<Davidov> Gordon, where do you post most of the time?
<caliban> Lazlo- thanks howabout posting a few yourself, so I can like yours too ;-)
<Davidov> Loglady, you a female?
<MichaelA> LogLady would be a bot
<Lazlo> I am Lazarus
<MichaelA> Hey Lazarus
<Davidov> I have yet to meet a female transhumanist!
<Lazlo> We have often parleye
<MichaelA> What about your friend TaileRhun
* caliban slaps himself
<Lazlo> parleyed*
<guy305> is/was Ziana a female?
<Lazlo> Hi Michael
<MichaelA> What about Ziana and my sister and Sabine Atkins and Samantha Atkins
<caliban> Lazlo: So I do like your posts already -'specially the stories
<Lazlo> What about em?
<Lazlo> Thanks
<MichaelA> (they are all transhumanist females)
<Lazlo> Is samantha posting much? She was originally Sr. Samantha but did she take on a new moniker?
<MichaelA> She posts on various Singularity lists a lot
<Lazlo> I have seen that but I am asking about in this forum?
<MichaelA> No she hasn't
<MichaelA> Not to my knowledge
<caliban> do you think an influx of progesteron would help the transhumanist movement?
<Lazlo> I have been chatting with Samantha for a few years now. We met in '99 on Gina' Nanotech site.
<Lazlo> Caliban I think a influx of progerstorne based thinkers are always welcome.
<bk_2112> not particularly. an influx of brains/bodies saturated w/progesterone might... might
<MichaelA> Cool
<Lazlo> god I really need to fix my fingers
<Lazlo> The first fix I get from an uplifited intelligence is for my dyslexic fingers
<Lazlo> I got most of the rest of my head on straight finally
<caliban> well I agree -- BJKlein blamed it on behavioral evolution
<Davidov> I'm sorry Micheal
<Davidov> I just got back
<Lazlo> Oh he thinks the reason has to do with Evolutionary Psychology, huh...
<Davidov> TaileRhun is a guy
<MichaelA> Oops
<Davidov> lol
<MichaelA> Nm then
<caliban> (the lack of female contributors that was --not Lazlos dyslexia)
<Davidov> Ziana female? coolness
<Lazlo> I fingered as much ;-)
<Davidov> hehe
<caliban> Lazlo: Yes Evolutionary Psychology thats how he prefered to call it -- pretty muddy water
<Davidov> When David Bowie says in "Heroes", "We can beat them, forever and ever" that reminds me of the Singularity, in a obscure sense
<nrv8> and
<nrv8> gould was wrong.
<nrv8> ;P(
<Davidov> What does a log bot do?
<Davidov> Log conversations?
<MichaelA> Yep
<Lazlo> He may be correct and that should say something about this concept. Evolutionary Psych doesn' mean that women are hard wired against transhumanism, but let us say they have a vested interest in the status quo
<Davidov> The last physical female I spoke to about the Singularity (the most open-minded female I know) thought the status quo was better than it. Maybe you're right Lazlo.
<caliban> now that is more reversed feminism, than evolution aey?
<Lazlo> Most people regardless of gender favor the current state of evolution and feel threatened by their own latent * racisism* against the very notin of transhumanism
<Lazlo> But women are directly threatened as what defines gender.
<Lazlo> It is ironic, because transhumanism owes much of its origin to the feminist movement and its willingness to shatter gender defined behavioral roles
<caliban> Lazlo: in feminist bioethics this "shattering" is commonly perceived to be a chauvinist ploy
<Lazlo> Transhumanism is going to redefine the relationship of individuals and their procreative ability along with their own self definition
<caliban> so men can ursurp the life- giving role of women
<Davidov> I don't think feminists, for the most part, have the slightest notion of the Singularity, so I don't think it really matters what they think.
<Lazlo> if men have babies then what defines male/female?
<Davidov> You could have a infinite number of sexes in a Singularity world, most likely
<Davidov> Each sex integral to eventual reproductive
<Davidov> reproduction *
<Lazlo> If women opt to give up the direct provreative role for surrogate or artificial gestation then what defines male/female in a sociopsychological sense?
<Davidov> So sexes won't exist afterwards, I guess
<Lazlo> Multiple gender roles will deveop
<Davidov> Male/females probably won't exist unless the individuals desire them too
<Lazlo> develop
<Davidov> If you have multiple gender roles, then, in a sense, that's a new sex
<Lazlo> Many do desire them and ,ore importantly * identify* themself with them
<Davidov> Let the Sysop deal with'em
<Lazlo> more* and yes to your point, that is a NEW type of sexuality,
<caliban> Lazlo: Well computer fantasies notwithstading
you will in all forseeable future maintain to have a biological sex +<Davidov> Hermaphordites are the closest we've gotten to that, but they're always only one functional type of sex
<Lazlo> Gernetic enhancement is by definition tri or even Multi-parous
<caliban> + or at least biological sexual influences
<AlonzoTG> That's okay.
<AlonzoTG> As long as we arn't talking about a computer simulation.
<Lazlo> The principle of mixing genetic characteristics isn't a cybersex fantasy
<Lazlo> But altering the current state of human physiology is already possible
<Lazlo> Transexuality is a defned type of transhumanism
<Lazlo> Again my point was that if you examine the origins of this movement it overlaps the gender issues and what they created as a social revolution
<Davidov> It sorta makes me sick that people like Bill Gates could accelerate the Singularity so fast but just sit back and sulk
<caliban> Lazlo: I agree, but "genetic charakterisics" bring about certain ramnifications - it might just be that we are better able to direct and compose these
<Lazlo> So when you are tallking about what might offend or turmn off females is tha tan element of their allure is threatened with a new form of competition
<Lazlo> dyslexic parsing of phras ing sheeesh
<Lazlo> David you should be so lucky as to sulk with a billion dollars
<Lazlo> He is sulking all the way to the bank
<caliban> Lazlo: interessing thought (if i read you correctly) - I have not considered it from that angle ... need a moment to think about that
<Lazlo> You think he cares?
<guy305> 4yeah i can't believe Bill Gates would be so selfish and create a charity fund worth 28 billion dollars
<Davidov> Who here is a expert mugger?
* caliban goes thinking
<Davidov> I guess Bill Gates doesn't realize he'd be doing the world the best favor if he poured his money in accelerating the Singularity
<Davidov> Many scientists only go where the money is
<Lazlo> I don' think he cares if there is a singularity as long as he is holding the control switch on the hardware and the patent to the software
<Davidov> I don't what he's personally like.
<Lazlo> think he is probably a pretty nice nerd, somebody that is more than a little bit enamored of himself though a little.
<Lazlo> Ya listenin Billy?
* MichaelA listens
<Lazlo> I wouldn' be surprised if he ghosts sites like this one, we are the type of people that understand ideas like he does
<caliban> *re
<Lazlo> ire to you too Caliban--o
<caliban> Lazlo: 1) From a biological perspective there would continue to me two sexes and four possibilities (m/f. hermaphrodite and replicating)
<caliban> 2) But from the viewpoint of sexual selection, we could well create totally different “locks” and “keys” – thereby essentially creating different subspecies that are maybe sexually maybe just emotionally incompatible.
<Lazlo> and synthetic, cybernetic enhance options
<caliban> Interesting. Not helpful from an immoralist point of view - but it speaks to the transhumanist in me
<Lazlo> There are already bizarro types that advertise in most major metropoli as * She/MAles essentially serving as prostitutes
<Lazlo> This isn' a consequence of transhumanism
<Davidov> I imagine the Powers of the Singularity understanding 'qualia' of intelligences below them
<Lazlo> I am saying that Transhumanism owes its ability to question the * role* of individual gender orientation and alteration to this sociopyschological area
<Davidov> Alrighty, I must be leaving. Goodnight my fellow mutual advocates!
<caliban> aye. i took that point, but i would tend to thing that in this area bio and psycho are even harder to sepparate
<Lazl
