11 replies to this topic

[yinyang]

Hello, I am looking for ways to deal with HPA axis dysfunction and possibly resetting it. I've read the other topics about that here and I hope that someone helps me with my case.

Long story short, after severe chronic stress, I've developed chronic insomnia. Firstly, I had trouble falling asleep and as of a year now I'm consistently waking up at 4-4:30am and have great trouble falling back asleep. I believe the root cause is HPA axis dysfunction, my salivary cortisol is a on the low side, my ACTH is strangely a bit high and I have slight hypothyroidism(Hashimoto's - although my T3,T4, Anti-TG and Anti-TPO are normal I have structural changes in the thyroid). After getting a good sleep(7 hours, which happens rarely) my TSH is just a bit over the range - 5, optimal range up to 2.5, otherwise it's around 7.

The very first symptoms were needing to drink a lot of water(>3 liters), peeing frequently, I don't have diabetes insipidus, and craving salty and sweet foods.

I have primary Raynaud's syndrome, too.

For the past few months, I have no trouble falling asleep but I wake up at 4:30 almost every night.

Here's what I've tried:
melatonin 1mg/3mg/3mg long release
valerian root
5-htp and l-tryptophan
lemon balm
hops
lavender
glycine 3 grams
alpha-lipoic acid
B12
Forskolin(helps lower the frequency of urination)
Curcumin(both longvida and a 95% extract)
L-theanine

All of that doesn't help.

What I am currently using is:

in the morning

Forskolin
B12 2mg lozenges
Vitamin A

at night

Enerphos(phosphoserine)
Magnesium l-threonate

When I take curcumin, the first few times I get very very tired and sleepy but after that I think it makes my sleep quality and quantity worse.

I'm also using sleep restriction and that's why I have no trouble falling asleep.

There was a period of 2-3 weeks where I was able to get 7 hours of uninterrupted sleep, I think the main reason why is the Enerphos. After that, I started waking up too early - 5:30-6am and now I'm waking up at 4-4:30 again, having trouble falling back asleep.

Other maybe related things - my nose is constantly stuffy since I was a kid. Also, I have depression but I don't know if it's caused by the poor sleep or vice versa - it's the reason for the poor sleep.

I've read about mifepristone but I want to try it as a last resort.

Thank you for your time.

[triguy]

check your prolactin levels

 

 

check you adrenal function. COMPLETE blood/urine/saliva testing

[yinyang]

What do you mean by complete blood/urine/saliva because I've done a lot of tests

[dojob]

Hi YinYang,

 

I got HPA axis dysfunctioning too (i think), I was just about to make a thread about it when I saw yours on the forum.

Whenever I get a stress response it keeps ongoing and the negative feedback to stop the stress response is absent.

I am hoping some of the bright heads on this forum know a few tricks for this.

For what I know, Meditation is very helpfull in treating HPA axys dysfunction.

I was thinking about using cerebrolysin with intense meditation for faster healing and adaptation.

 

For the waking up in the middle of the night, it might be due to low blood sugar which raises cortisol and initiates a stress response which you are unable to set off if you have hpa axis dysfunctioning. I would try to eat some healthy fats (walnuts) and some cassein protein or shake right before bed.

 

Are you able to do intense exercise? When I do 2 pull ups it sets on a stress response which keeps getting progessively worse to where I get agressive.

I'd really like advice about it too,

 

[Junipersun]

If I remember correctly, Tianeptine does help with HPA axis dysfunction. 

[dojob]

It does indeed, but it's got addictive properties.

I found a reliable source for mifepristone in powder form, dirt cheap too.

I am buying it today i'm sick of not getting hard workouts and being hypervigilant all the time.

I hope this works lol.

[yinyang]

Yes,I'm able to do intense exercise although I feel exhausted after no matter the intensity

[John250]

Have you tried sheng di huang? Supposed to be great for cortisol and adrenal repair.

[invisiblejungle]

Have you tried sheng di huang? Supposed to be great for cortisol and adrenal repair.

 

Sheng di huang is one form of rehmannia glutinosa, one of the most commonly-used Chinese herbs. Shu di huang is the same herb that has gone through a steaming process. Sheng di huang is used to "clear heat," while shu di huang is considered to be the major "kidney yin" tonic.

 

Rehmannia has been shown to inhibit the breakdown of cortisol and even increase cortisol levels despite HPA axis suppression from exogenous corticosteroids.

 

I know the common advice in regards to herbs and adrenals is "adaptogens adaptogens adaptogens." But the herbs that are often labelled as "adaptogens" in the west would be considered to be "qi tonics" in Chinese herbalism, and qi tonics are considered to be inappropriate/dangerous for people who are seriously depleted. I feel that all of the naturopaths in the west who just parrot this information have caused much harm to the people who are most ill.

 

 

[invisiblejungle]

Someone tagged my post as "Needs references."

 

 

I own this book: https://www.amazon.c...n/dp/0974063509

 

I also borrowed this book from a local university: https://www.amazon.c...L40_&dpSrc=srch

 

 

These books contain the studies I'm referring to. Sorry, but a lot of the studies on Chinese herbs haven't been translated into English, so you need to consult the actual textbooks.

Edited by invisiblejungle, 03 July 2018 - 11:57 PM.

[pamojja]

I know the common advice in regards to herbs and adrenals is "adaptogens adaptogens adaptogens." But the herbs that are often labelled as "adaptogens" in the west would be considered to be "qi tonics" in Chinese herbalism, and qi tonics are considered to be inappropriate/dangerous for people who are seriously depleted. I feel that all of the naturopaths in the west who just parrot this information have caused much harm to the people who are most ill.

 

Don't have knowledge of Chinese herbalism, therefore my questions. Which adaptogens are considered qi tonics?

 

And which class of herbs would be considered appropriate for those who are seriously depleted? How would depletion of qi show up in blood work?

[invisiblejungle]

Don't have knowledge of Chinese herbalism, therefore my questions. Which adaptogens are considered qi tonics?

 

And which class of herbs would be considered appropriate for those who are seriously depleted? How would depletion of qi show up in blood work?

 

Hi Pamojja,

 

I think I recognize your name from Phoenixrising.

 

Some commonly-recommended adaptogens that are considered to be qi tonics in Chinese herbalism include panax ginseng (Asian ginseng), panax quinquefolius (American ginseng), eleutherococcus senticosus (eleuthero root / Siberian ginseng), rhodiola rosea (rhodiola), rhaponticum carthamoides (maral root), astragalus membranaceus (astragalus), codonopsis pilosula (codonopsis), gynostemma pentaphyllum (jiao gu lan), and schisandra chinensis (schizandra).

 

In Chinese herbalism, qi tonics and yang tonics are considered to be inappropriate for seriously ill people because they overstimulate an already-weak system. You're probably familiar with the many ME/CFS patients who complain about being "wired and tired." There are 4 categories of tonic herbs, with the other 2 being the yin tonics and blood tonics. Kidney yin tonics are usually appropriate for seriously depleted people, and this category includes rehmannia glutinosa (sheng di huang / shu di huang), polygonum multiflorum (he shou wu), eclipta prostata (han lian cao), ligustrum lucidum (ligustrum fruit), and lycium chinense (goji berries).

 

There's a pretty decent thread on Phoenixrising about Chinese herbalism and CFS: https://forums.phoen...sues-q-a.40176/

 

 

As for your question about qi depletion showing up in bloodwork, I'm afraid that's an area I don't have much knowledge in. (We would first have to specify if we're discussing spleen qi, lung qi, kidney qi, etc.) I know that there are practitioners / researchers who are trying to correlate Chinese diagnoses with objective lab measurements, but this is a pretty controversial area. Personally, I'm of the opinion that different systems are different systems and can't be matched up on a one-to-one basis. For example, homeopathy is a completely different animal and has to be evaluated on its own terms.

 

 

But in regards to HPA axis dysfunction, I'm not claiming that "adaptogens" are never appropriate. There has been research showing that herbs like ginseng, eleuthero, and rhodiola do increase adrenal hormones. But herbs are complex creatures with wide constellations of effects. Adaptogens can be extremely beneficial for some people, but they are often detrimental for the seriously ill (those who are unable to work, bedridden, etc.)

Edited by invisiblejungle, 04 July 2018 - 07:59 PM.