26 replies to this topic

[Phoebus]

why are there no actual NAD+ pills available? 

 

instead of precursors, why not take the actual thing itself? 

 

is it just cost? Because thats all really about scale, I am sure if there was demand production scale would go up and cost would go down. 

 

Is there a biological reason? 

 

Also: Can an average dummy - like me for instance - get hold of NAD+? Or do you have to work in a lab to get it? I found some online but its not for sale to the general public. 

[Turnbuckle]

https://biotrendshk....its_en_francais

 

NAD+ (60grams)

NAD+

Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide is a co-enzyme found in all living cells.

NAD+ is an oxidizing agent – it accepts electrons from other molecules and becomes reduced. This reaction forms NADH, which can then be used as a reducing agent to donate electrons. NADH (Vitamin B3) is absorbed and used by all living cells in our bodies as an antioxidant which then turns it back into NAD+. NAD+ is used by the cells for neurological and cell to cell communication.

 

GET AN EXTRA 5% OFF THIS OR ANY ITEMS BY CHOOSING “AUTO SHIP MONTHLY” AT CHECK OUT!

 

The canister contains 120 capsules containing 500mg of NAD+ each.

 

It is best not to take just before bed but is preferred by many to take 30 minutes prior to physical activity as in it’s original state, NAD+, is a powerful oxidizer which can give a boost to your Blood Oxygen levels.

 

We suggest 2 capsules daily, 1 in the morning and one in the evening, 30 minutes prior to eating.

 

Content: 120 X 500mg capsules of NAD+ totaling 60g

 

<----> <---->

$518.00

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 July 2018 - 11:12 AM.

[Phoebus]

right, so you can find very expensive NAD+ which they only sell to labs. I got that. 

 

My question is why doesn't someone create large scale NAD+ production with the intention of selling NAD+ pills to the public? 

 

I am sure the process cant be much more expensive than making NR and/or NMN

 

is there a biological reason? 

[Turnbuckle]

right, so you can find very expensive NAD+ which they only sell to labs. I got that. 

 

My question is why doesn't someone create large scale NAD+ production with the intention of selling NAD+ pills to the public? 

 

I am sure the process cant be much more expensive than making NR and/or NMN

 

is there a biological reason? 

 

 

Looks to me that anyone can buy it. So what you are really asking is, why isn't there a source you can afford?

 

Besides, it's not as expensive as it appears, as least compared to NMN. Sublingual tablets of NMN work out to be around $6/gram, while this NAD+ is $8.60/gram.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 July 2018 - 02:09 PM.

[Phoebus]

good points

 

so why are companies focusing on NAD+ precursors if they could just sell us the actual NAD+? Is there a reason for this? 

[LawrenceW]

Perhaps it has something to do with this.

 

Bioavailability studies have indicated that ingested NAD+ was primarily converted in the small intestine by brush border cells.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...j00375-0200.pdf

[Mind]

It is best not to take just before bed but is preferred by many to take 30 minutes prior to physical activity as in it’s original state, NAD+, is a powerful oxidizer which can give a boost to your Blood Oxygen levels.

 

 

Aren't "powerful oxidizers" generally a negative (in the metabolic sense)? Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer as well. I wouldn't want to drink it straight.

[HaplogroupW]

Perhaps it has something to do with this.

 

Bioavailability studies have indicated that ingested NAD+ was primarily converted in the small intestine by brush border cells.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...j00375-0200.pdf

 

 

 

the present study demonstrates two independent reactions for the hydrolysis of NAD: one that forms nicotinamide through hydrolysis of the ribosyl-pyridinium bond and one that forms nicotinamide mono-nucleotide through the hydrolysis of the pyrophosphate bond. The nicotinamide mononucleotide is subsequently dephosphorylated to nicotinamide riboside.

 

... so maybe we could get the same effect from just taking N, NMN and/or NR. Oh wait... 

 

Or perhaps a liposomal formulation of NAD+ could be just the thing.

[Phoebus]

Perhaps it has something to do with this.

 

Bioavailability studies have indicated that ingested NAD+ was primarily converted in the small intestine by brush border cells.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...j00375-0200.pdf

 

 

This proves my point even more 

 

First off nearly all of the NR/NMN you ingest is converted by the liver into simple N fairly quickly. 

 

This study suggests that ingested NAD survives the liver intact and is sent to the intestines where only a small portion is converted to N and the rest is converted to either NR or NMN. 

 

So by this logic NAD+ pills would be far superior to NR/NMN pills 

 

Unless of course I am misunderstanding that study, someone feel free to correct me 

[LawrenceW]

Gross and Henderson (1) revealed that NAD+ is efficiently digested in the small intestinal tract, producing Nam that is transported into the blood and distributed to various tissues.

 

https://www.research...lication_detail

 

[Phoebus]

Gross and Henderson (1) revealed that NAD+ is efficiently digested in the small intestinal tract, producing Nam that is transported into the blood and distributed to various tissues.

 

https://www.research...lication_detail

 

 

thanks very interesting 

 

 

As expected, NAD+    in acidic solution was unchanged after 3 h incubation at 25˚C 

 

 

so NAD+ laughs at acidic conditions and would survive the stomach no problem at least 

 

However, this study does not tell us exactly when the oral NAD+ is broken down into NAM. Is it in the liver (like NR/NMN)? or is it much later in the process? 

Edited by Phoebus, 27 July 2018 - 02:18 AM.

[William Sterog]

I believe that the small intestine comes before the liver when you take something orally.

[Phoebus]

I believe that the small intestine comes before the liver when you take something orally.

 

 

yeah good point, not sure what i was thinking

[aaaaaaal]

right, so you can find very expensive NAD+ which they only sell to labs. I got that. 

 

My question is why doesn't someone create large scale NAD+ production with the intention of selling NAD+ pills to the public? 

 

I am sure the process cant be much more expensive than making NR and/or NMN

 

is there a biological reason? 

 

Ever heard of Mito Trans?

 

There's a pretty promising review on Trustpilot:

 

https://www.trustpil...ww.biotivia.com

[Phoebus]

Ever heard of Mito Trans?

 

There's a pretty promising review on Trustpilot:

 

https://www.trustpil...ww.biotivia.com

 

 

ah! very interesting, so an NAD+ pill does exist! 

 

wish it was pure NAD instead they throw a bunch of other crap in there 

 

anyway thanks 

[aaaaaaal]

ah! very interesting, so an NAD+ pill does exist! 

 

wish it was pure NAD instead they throw a bunch of other crap in there 

 

anyway thanks 

 

I think it is pure NAD?

[Phoebus]

I think it is pure NAD?

 

 

well 

 

 

 

• Sustained Time Release Formula with digestive enzyme protection

 

I think there is other stuff in there but they dont list all the ingredients, for some dumb reason 

[Nate-2004]

My understanding, and this was already talked about and explained in early posts in this forum by Brian S. on NR, was that NAD+ is too large a molecule to enter the cell through the membrane. It is something that has to be synthesized inside the cell as part of the krebs cycle. By taking precursors the idea is to supply the smaller ingredients to the cell for making NAD+.

 

I'm just going by memory here but you can look at the long thread that was locked a year or so ago or any posts by Bryan S. should lead you there.

 

You should probably also read about Extracellular NAD+ vs Intracellular, as well as NAMPT. There are many blog posts on this as well, all linked in that thread. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 08 August 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Dominic F.]

Are NAD+ IV solutions available? Has anyone here experimented with DIY NAD+ IV therapy?

[able]

Here's a new NAD+ product. 

 

https://nadovim.com

 

60 x 100 mg of NAD+, plus an interesting mix of other ingredients, for $89 a bottle

 

Nadovim consists of eight active ingredients – NAD+ (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), Bacopa monnieri, cat’s claw, CoQ10, magnesium, thiamin, glycine, and aspartic acid. The specific ratios of each ingredient produce a synergy and improve bioavailability and overall effectiveness.

 

But I don't see any explanation on how it is supposed to make it thru the GI tract without being digested.

 

[able]

My understanding, and this was already talked about and explained in early posts in this forum by Brian S. on NR, was that NAD+ is too large a molecule to enter the cell through the membrane. It is something that has to be synthesized inside the cell as part of the krebs cycle. By taking precursors the idea is to supply the smaller ingredients to the cell for making NAD+.

 

 

That is the commonly held view, often reinforced by Chromadex marketing.

 

I don't think it is a yes or no answer.  Maybe the cell membrane is a  barrier that makes it difficult for NAD+ to cross, but there is research that disputes that view:

 

Pharmacological Effects of Exogenous NAD on Mitochondrial Bioenergetics, DNA Repair and Apoptosis

 

"Although the canonical view considers NAD unable to permeates lipid bilayers (Di Lisa and Ziegler, 2001), several studies report evidence for exogenous NAD (eNAD) uptake by different cells "

 

"These findings are at odds with the hypothesis that eNAD increase iNAD contents because of extracellularly-formed NAD precursors"

 

 

 

Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide is transported into mammalian mitochondria

 

"mitochondria do not synthesize NAD at all, but rather take it up intact from the cytosol, which in turn, can take up NAD from the extracellular space "

 

"While mammalian mitochondria are generally considered to be impermeable to pyridine nucleotides (32,33), at least two studies have previously reported evidence for uptake of NAD"

 

"leading the authors to propose that intact NAD crosses the plasma membrane and subsequently enters the mitochondria directly"

[Phoebus]

 

 

 

"mitochondria do not synthesize NAD at all, but rather take it up intact from the cytosol, which in turn, can take up NAD from the extracellular space "

 

 

 

 

 wow, thats fascinating!

 

so if that actually hold true, you just need to get the exogenous NAD+ into the extracellular space

 

That honestly does not seem impossible at all

[Harkijn]

Did you all listen to this podcast already? This guy provide  IV  commercially but says he also sells NAD patches and creams....

https://www.longecity.org/podcast/

[Nate-2004]

Also I forgot to mention that some of the other reasoning for NR or NMN over other precursors was that there is a limitation with NAMPT and these insert themselves (supposedly) into NAD+ production without the need for NAMPT.  There are many ways to boost NAMPT though, sauna, fasting, exercise, etc.

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 August 2018 - 10:45 PM.

[able]

Our bodies recycle the NAD+ pool 3 x each day, with something like 85% of that being thru the salvage pathway, starting with NAM->NMN, which requires NAMPT.

 

Some studies say it is deficient NAMPT as we age that is the cause of low NAD+.  Some others point to more demand from CD38, etc.

 

Whatever the cause for low NAD+, NMN/NR are thought to be superior to NAM because, as you say, they don't require NAMPT.

 

NAD+ is the goal, but I thought the rationale for using NMN/NR instead was because:

 

1. NAD+ doesn't survive the GI Tract

 

2. NAD+ cant enter cells

 

For Injections, #1 clearly doesn't matter

 

For #2,  I listed some research above that made me question whether NAD+ does in fact enter some cells/tissues directly, which may be why it has been used in the IV clinics for a few decades now

 

 

[Nate-2004]

For #2,  I listed some research above that made me question whether NAD+ does in fact enter some cells/tissues directly, which may be why it has been used in the IV clinics for a few decades now

 

Thing is what good would it do for retaining NAD+ levels if the only way for the whole molecule to do any good (to be bioavailable) would be to use an IV? You'd pretty much have to do that 3 times a day forever. It may be useful for some therapeutic reasons but not for replenishing young NAD+ levels over a lifetime.

Edited by Nate-2004, 21 August 2018 - 12:19 AM.

[able]

Thing is what good would it do for retaining NAD+ levels if the only way for the whole molecule to do any good (to be bioavailable) would be to use an IV? You'd pretty much have to do that 3 times a day forever. It may be useful for some therapeutic reasons but not for replenishing young NAD+ levels over a lifetime.

 

True.  But the thread was asking about pills.  Tom Ingolglia said they are selling a pill, nasal spray, lotion and transdermal.  Why wouldn't a  sublingual capsule, or some of those other options deliver NAD+ to the blood much better than an oral NR/NMN capsule?

 

Sure, it might be limited in which, or how fast it can enter cells, but I'm starting to think NAD+ was overlooked somewhat, partly because it is not patented and can't be sold in a capsule for the masses