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Insomnia and C60, need help

insomnia c60

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#1 spike

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 09:24 AM


Hi, guys and gals!

I'm vegetarian, 32 y.o., male, lifestyle: did 10 min of fitness each day, last week or two—no fitness, just walking a lot due to exhaustion, prefer a whole food plant based diet. 

I got insomnia, surprisingly, after taking C60OO (bought on Amazon from manufacturer with good reviews, 99.95% purity), I think it's not a coincidence because after I started taking C60 (1-3ml), during the period of around 3 weeks, my sleep progressively got worse (as well as headache) until it disappeared, I stopped taking C60, but my sleep hasn't recovered since. I had some sleep issues before (for about one year), I'd have a deep good night sleep for something like a week, and then one day wouldn't sleep because my head would be tense, I'm sleepy, but consciousness is present throughout the night, now it's tense every night. In addition to sleep issues, some other symptoms: constant tension headache, tinnitus, blinking in the eyes, fatigue (for about ten years). Doctors were treating the symptoms with sedatives, nootropics, and antidepressants and then I stopped taking those 3-5 years ago.

Then after one week of minimal sleep I decided to take some blood tests (do not include hormones other than of thyroid and parathyroid) and it turned out I had a severe vitamin D deficiency 9.4 ng/ml (probably for many years because of little sun exposure), and it's linked to sleep problems and more. Other abnormalities in blood test: low ferritin—28 ng/ml (the lab recommends 30-400), HoloTC—53 pmol/l (a bit higher than minimal '> 50'), folic acid—4.67 (3.89—26.8), glucose always near the top border because gallbladder was removed—5.78 mmol/l (4.11-5.89), PLT—154 cells/l (180-360), MPV—13.3  (6-13), eosinophils per 100—0.4% (0.5-5.0), eosinophils abs—0.03 (0.04-0.54), HDL—0.73 mmol/l (>1.45), KA—3.96 (<3), creatinine—59 mkmol/l (62-106). Normal results: homocysteine, calcium ionized, magnesium, potassium, zinc, iron, phosphorous, ALP,  thyroid/parathyroid hormones, thrombin time, LDL, triglycerides, cholesterol, GGT, complete blood count (except few above), transferrin, and albumin. Took methylation test: MTHFR C677T +/-, MTHFR A1298C +/-, MTR: 2756 +/-, MTRR: 66 -/- (homozygous).

 

Now one month later after taking 10k IU of D3, the 25-(OH)D level is 37.69 ng/ml, calcium ionized is a tiny bit higher than upper limit, but my sleep hasn't improved, now I plan to take less - 5k IU each day. Can't take much methylcobalamin, from previous experience it caused worse sleep and I became more emotional, waiting for methylfolate to arrive. Some say it takes one year for the symptoms of deficiency to disappear, but still, quite suspicions that with this level no improvement with sleep.

 

Do you think C60OO could speed up a depletion (that the body used more than ) of some nutrients that might have caused this insomnia? Even though I'm vegetarian, I'm willing to take some supplements from meat or meat itself temporarily for few weeks/months because I'm desperate if it can potentially help.

 

I tried different supplements without much success, can't take magnesium glycinate or other forms because my nose becomes stuffed and it doesn’t seem to improve sleep, CoQ10 helped me to get non deep sleep throughout the night with three awakenings, but I think it lowered my blood pressure because my breathing was a bit suppressed and blinking in the eyes was more intense. K2—bigger headache, less sleep, gelatin (it has glycine) and glycine itself helped me the first day, but not the next (today), don't know what I did wrong. L-tryptophan, took tiny dose (1/8 of a 500 mg capsule) in the morning and during the night had dome light symptoms of serotonin toxicity—hyperventilation + racing heart, I guess I don't need serotonin boosting drugs? L-lysine—felt weird and has a lot of red in the eyes, from choline bitartrate—depression for two days, similar reaction from inositol, melatonin 2mg didn't seem to have much effect, maybe if I take it each day for a prolonged period of time, it'd show some effect or combine with, say, 500mg of valerian root + melatonin + maybe gelatin. Also tried something a little bit more serious - Doxepin, 2mg, but managed to fall asleep in 6AM, slept till 7, then woke up and were in zombie state for half a day with suppressed breathing. Some people say that MK-677 has a good night sleep as a side effect, I have it but hasn't tried, because it can significantly effect different hormones so I'm extra careful, seen also Ipamorelin might have same side effect but it requires shots under the stomach skin  :|o .

 

A neurologist prescribed me Quetiapine (Seroquel, etc) 1/2 of 25 mg, and then 25 mg for one week. From some drugs I get sleep apnea/hyperventilation, I'm afraid I won't wake up from something as powerful as Quetiapine, and CPAPs are expensive.

I'm not from an economically developed country and don't know if I'll be able to find a high quality doctor. Not saying that my neurologist is bad I just don't yet know. Another reason for insomnia—psychological, I didn't have any psychological trauma, maybe just stress, but I suspect a severe vit D deficiency is the cause for these symptoms that look like they're stress related.

 

I'd be extremely grateful for your advice.

Thank you.

 


Edited by spike, 18 August 2018 - 10:12 AM.


#2 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 10:21 AM

Let me get this straight... you've been eating BUCKY-BALLS?? The nano-tech material used for insulating air-planes and such, from electromagnetic interference? First time I ever heard about this...

 

So I read up a bit on it:

 

https://joshmitteldo.../2013/01/29/63/

 

You were obviously inspired by the thread here on Longecity with people drinking bucky-ball olive-oil...

 

Well, I gotta' say, I'm not a fan of this. This is very, very untested territory, there were even several mistakes done in the initial study - that, partnered with the fact that nano-tech carbon-constructs have at times been shown to be neurotoxic (I know the debate is still ongoing, and there's also some evidence of the contrary) I do not consider this a sufficiently safety-oriented experiment.

 

If your issues are truly related to C60, then it's damn-near impossible to determine what the mechanism could be! This stuff is apparently bioactive in many, many ways... even altering genetic mechanisms.

 

 

Anyways, enough preaching from me... Seeing as you have had sleeping-issues before you used C60, then it's not unreasonable to believe it's actually unconnected to C60 - it could just be something else that happened to worsen some process that was already ongoing.

 

Tell  us which drugs give you sleep-apnea - is there a common theme between them? Btw, as far as I understand it, sleep-apnea is generally a physical problem, caused by a congenital deformity - very often constant (it doesn't change), unless you suddenly gain or lose a tremendous amount of weight - as such, I must admit some skepticism towards drugs GIVING you sleep apnea... are you sure that certain drugs don't just worsen your general sleep, and then you notice yourself waking up, and assume it's caused by the drugs giving you apnea? There are multiple other ways many drugs can alter sleep-structure.

 

Have you had anyone study you while you sleep? Like, see if you snore a lot - this could imply you always have apnea.

 

You could of course, in the meantime, just have someone watch over you when you sleep, and try out Quetiapine - that way you can feel safe knowing that you would have someone whom could act to help you, if you stop breathing. (waking you up via blowing air straight into your mouth - aka CPR)

 

Btw, even though CPAP's are terribly expensive, if you can find evidence that you truly have constant sleep apnea, then it's definitively worth spending the money to buy the equipment - many say it's like going from dying towards having an actual life. Could you possibly borrow a CPAP from a medical institution, or from someone else in the Ukraine, whom has one? Probably difficult, yes, but then you could at least TEST a CPAP before you buy one.

 

 

PS: I like your avatar - Spike from MLP: Friendship is Magic, right? = ) I have several friends whom are devout Bronies. I'm more of a Disney-guy myself though. (as evident from my avatar)


Edited by Mind_Paralysis, 18 August 2018 - 10:23 AM.

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#3 spike

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 12:07 PM

Thank you so much for your answer, Mind_Paralysis! You're completely right, it was very irresponsible of me. Sleep apnea (or whatever it was) was since the beginning 10 years ago and it was worse, maybe not even drug induced or maybe because of prescribed nootropics I can't remember. Nootropics definitely made my headache worse, I even went to the doppler doctor and detected Idiopathic intracranial hypertension one time, though I continued to take nootropics for long period of time. I wonder if prolonged IIH could be a reason for constant headache now. I remember in the past that I woke up with what I perceived as stopped breathing from entire capsule of melatonin 3 mg, (what I wrote above about no effect of 2mg, it's actually 1/4 of 3mg, I thought it's a 8mg capsule, this time I started from a tiny dose because of the memory of previous experience), big dose of inositol, it's not actually that big, maybe a teaspoon, I just somehow very sensitive to supplements/drugs; powerful nootropic - pramiracetam I woke up and felt incredibly bad with intense headache, don't remember if my breathing stopped or not; I think from passion flower as well; also recently from L-tryptophan not sure what it was just apnoe or light serotonin toxicity.

There's one place in my town when they can perform sleep study, I'll try to get a referral to that place.

 

> Seeing as you have had sleeping-issues before you used C60, then it's not unreasonable to believe it's actually unconnected to C60

 

I certainly hope so, given how many things could disturb my sleep like k vitamin, b complex, also I just remembered that if I did an extensive cardio workout for more than 10-15 minutes, like half an hour, I also wouldn't be able to sleep.

 

> are you sure that certain drugs don't just worsen your general sleep, and then you notice yourself waking up

 

I guess I can't say for sure without a sleep study, maybe it's just a suppressed breathing, I have to breathe 3 second inhale and 7 exhale for some time to restore breathing. Central nervous system depressants decrease rate of breathing.

 

> I like your avatar - Spike from MLP: Friendship is Magic, right? = )

 

My niece asked me to show her MLP, we watched together and I liked it :laugh: , shows like this are especially valuable during hard times as they're quite lighthearted, for now I avoid watching any drama, not to mention horror.

 

> I'm more of a Disney-guy myself

 

I probably as well, I especially liked Star War Rebels.

Thank you again.

 


Edited by spike, 18 August 2018 - 12:34 PM.

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#4 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 12:14 PM

Btw, if you want to have a look at compounds that might be useful for your insomnia, then this article which goes through slow-wave sleep enhancing compounds might be interesting:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2824211/

 

It lists Olanzapine instead of Quetiapine - the difference between these two AP's, is that Olanzapine is an inverse agonist, with a higher affinity for the 5ht2a receptor, which is important for sleep, while Quetiapine is a regular real antagonist. As I understand it, Olanzapine is better for sleep, BUT... it can also cause paradoxical reactions, because of its action as an inverse agonist.


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#5 spike

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 06:10 PM

Thanks, useful link. I wonder if antipsychotics are necessary, there is a discussion on researchgate (can't give a link, because new accounts are not allowed) about quetiapine as to battle insomnia and doctors do not recommend it as a first sleep aid and any other antipsychotic as well, though the last doctor says that brief use is fine: 

 

I agree with You Marry that for brief occasional use is OK (e. g. 2-4 weeks).

If we go through indications quetiapine should not be used.
If I read your answer Nikola, I do not agree with You about levomepromazine etc ... Levomepromazine should not be used for these purposes, especially because of ADR and drug-drug interactions and antiholineric effects. In Austria for example levomepromazine is the most frequent inappropriate prescribing drug. Also in Slovenia patients receive too many these drugs for insomnia, I guess that in Serbia situation is more or less similar. This part of treatment (insomnia) is one of the highest risk for inappropriate prescribing in medicine therefore great caution is advisable. As clinical pharmacist specialist i usually make many suggestions on this topic in nursing homes and consequently we usually change pharmacotherapy. Usually I suggest a switching to trazodone (low doses) and mirtazapine (7,5-15 mg). Mianserin is more problematic as mirtazapine (ADR, DDIs) and therefore i avoid this drug in my suggestions.
Antipsychotics are especially usually prescribed inappropriately in elderly patients, where polypharmacy is big problem and may lead to serious ADR. In this view the antidepressants are usually safer choice to treat insomnia.
I agree with zolpidem use, however only 2-6 weeks is advisable. In long term use, the use of antidepressants is more appropriate.

 

That's my last post for today, I exceeded my beginner quota.



#6 spike

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Posted 23 August 2018 - 02:48 PM

A doppler ultrasound diagnostics showed like it did ~10 years ago—insufficient blood outflow from the brain, signs of IIH (doctor said nootropics could not have caused it like I thought before), I suspect it to be the main reason for my sleep problems, as for C60OO, maybe it improved something, but that dis-balanced a fragile system? Anyway, I'm going to be much more careful with supplements overall, not to mention nanomaterials, won't be taking them till there are more studies reveling potential side effects or lack thereof.

 

I've been prescribed 5mg nicergolin 2 times a day, hidrosmin 200mg 2x, massage, Hydroxyzine 25 mg, and slow release melatonin. She said to pause intensive cardio workout (I wanted to try 25 min for a week.) In addition, I'll spend less time in front of a computer, walk more, hopefully it's going to be helpful.


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#7 spike

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 07:26 AM

Unfortunately, improving blood outflow does not seem to have any effect on my sleep, so I still would love to hear more suggestions about what might have caused that and what could help to return my sleep to normal. Hydroxizine with melatonin (bigger dose doesn't give me side effects I previously had) does not seem to induce deep sleep, and I'm waking up several times a night, but it's still much better than no sleep at all. Now I'm trying to find something that can reinforce the effect of hydroxizine, I'd like to try Ashwagandha, L-Ornithine, P5P, maybe lithium orotate. Might also replace hydroxizine with something different like Mirtazapine. I got a good sleep till 2 AM from Trazadone, but it came with a price: stuffed nose, so not a good long term solution.

PS. Ironically, I bought C60 as a gift on my birthday, I keep finding ways to ruing my life  :wacko:  :)


Edited by spike, 01 September 2018 - 08:00 AM.


#8 spike

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:47 AM

I've noticed an idea from Turnbuckle in an old thread from 2014:

 

Active mitochondria is necessary for apoptosis, and PQQ can stimulate mitochondria which will then produce more ROS, using up glutathione. The same appears to be true for C60, which is why I take a gram of reduced glutathione and three grams of Vitamin C every day.

 

If PQQ, which is said to be an anti-oxidant and to stimulate cellular respiration, depletes glutathione, why would C60 not do the same? I noticed an uptick in aerobic capacity with PQQ, and a much greater uptick with C60. No one has studied it yet, but I don't believe you get that for free. You're unlikely to get more cellular respiration without creating more ROS, and there's no reason to believe C60 will be different in principle from PQQ. Thus more glutathione should be helpful, and I have found this to be the case. As for reduced glutathione v NAC, I have tried both and have found the effects to be similar, but I could not tolerate NAC for long. It is very hard on the digestive system, whereas reduced glutathione seems to have no negative digestive effects. 

 

Don't know if he still believes it, but I'm going to give it a try, can't hurt to take some glutathione (reduced) as it's one of the most abundant antioxidants in the body (Not to mention Vit C, never had problems with it).


Edited by spike, 03 September 2018 - 08:07 AM.


#9 spike

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 04:12 PM

Hi!

An update: I've tried a lot of supplements and even some devices, and the best one so far is NAC (but Setria Glutathione reduced had no effect). Unfortunately when I stop taking it, insomnia returns in full force, so I still consider C60 to be the biggest mistake of my life. But NAC does not help everyone, so if someone wants to try it, I can't promise it's going to help.

Other supplements that had an effect to some degree (right now I take only NAC):

 

I also was recommended CBD oil in the comment section under my review (thanks) and yet to try it. It would also be interesting to test lactoferrin and milk fat globule membrane from the study above.

Blue light glasses make me a little bit sleepy, I wear them two hours before sleep. Sleep restriction is a good technique to increase sleep pressure and as a result sleep quality during the designated time for sleep.

 

I'd like to re-post this message in some insomnia thread with an addition of my CBT-I notes.

 



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#10 Psy

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 02:09 AM

Inulin FOS improves REM (dreams) I was very surprised of how pronounced the effect was.


 

 

 

What amount did you take?

 


Edited by Psy, 22 April 2019 - 02:10 AM.


#11 spike

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 04:33 AM

Psy, even half the scoop works in my case (1.9g)

Forgot to add that NAC if taken too much (1g) worsens sleep, and it seems to have a cumulative effect, because 500 mg approximately after one month it feels similarly to 1g and I need to lower the dose or take it every other day.



#12 Ghanzo

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 06:45 AM

Psy, even half the scoop works in my case (1.9g)

Forgot to add that NAC if taken too much (1g) worsens sleep, and it seems to have a cumulative effect, because 500 mg approximately after one month it feels similarly to 1g and I need to lower the dose or take it every other day.

 How is the insomnia going? Have you been doing better? I also took c60 and ran into some problems. Curious if your experience is similar to mine.



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#13 spike

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:02 AM

 How is the insomnia going? Have you been doing better? I also took c60 and ran into some problems. Curious if your experience is similar to mine.

 

Hey, Ghanzo, what problems exactly?

 

Surprisingly NAC is still the most helpful thing among 70+ supplements/medication (including pregabalin, antidepressants, phenibut.) Everything else is just to assist it. Now NAC is a bit less effective, so I take it every day instead of each other.
I'm interested in other glutathione precursors like ALA, glycine, selenium, but not glutamine as it's converted to glutamate; glutamate is then converted to GABA but not sufficiently enough, at least in my case. + interested in GAD precursors/upregulators (it participates in the glutamate to GABA conversion)
 
You can also try liposomal glutathione unless you don't react well to choline. For a day or two I'd thought that lipo gsh causes depression but then remembered that each serving contains 400 mg of phosphatidylcholine.  
 
Herbal supps like Kava, Scullcap seem to have sleep enhancing properties but I'm not sure whether they're good for a long term use, as many work on gaba a receptors (Herbal Insomnia Medications that Target GABAergic Systems), and are associated with liver damage and in rare cases liver failure, especially kavatone extracts (Liver transplantation and the use of KAVA: Case report.)
 
This is the summary of what I take rn:
  • NAC - main ingredient (evening)
  • Vitamin K (evening)
  • ALA (morning)
  • L-lysine - makes me a bit drowsy without any side effects (evening)
  • Vitamin D (morning) after ~3 months of vit k looks like it doesn't affect my sleep anymore in any negative ways
  • Intensive cardio workout 10-20 minutes
  • Methylcobalamin (vit B12) occasionally
 
Unfortunately my sleep is not as good as it used to be and even small amount of stress throws it out of balance, but at least it's survivable, much better than little to no sleep at all.
 
Psychologically it's better not to think about your sleep, your problems, or blaming yourself for anything and redirect your thoughts to something interesting and engaging like your hobbies, or work project, etc. This technique fully resolved my sleep issues several years ago that were purely due to stress. Also, CBT-I highly recommends to wake up at the same time every day and avoid intense physical/mental activity 2-3 hours prior to sleep.
 
Supplements that reduced my blood pressure which is not a desirable effect for me, but if someone's struggling with hbp, check these out:






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