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Is the dasatinib in the dasatinib and quercetin really needed?

dasatinib quercetin

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#1 RichardAlan

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:13 PM


I thought a while back I read some comments to the effect of that the dasatinib part of the combo was not needed.  Does anyone have any thoughts on this.  The reason I ask is that I am currently taking 250mg of Quercetin twice a day and wondering if that's actually doing anything. Would appreciate hearing from the people here any advice on this. 


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#2 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 03:49 PM

How is a question dangerous or irresponsible?

 

As far as your question is question is concerned, my understanding is that dasatinib and quercetin are senolytic against different cell types and you also get synergy between the two. 

 

 

 


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#3 Mind

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 05:41 PM

Some troll probably rated the first question. If you notice more random unwarranted or illogical ratings, let me know.

 

My understanding is that dasatinib has been proven in mice to have senolytic activity.


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#4 Fafner55

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 10:03 PM

Personally I have not found phytosubstances, like quercetin or fisetin, to be sufficiently senolytic to make a noticeable difference. In contrast, dasatinib is an extremely potent BCL-2 inhibitor that alone is sufficient.

 

I use the BCL inhibitors quercetin phytosome, curcumin phytosome, honokiol, fisetin in combination with dasatinib in an attempt to further increase its efficacy and possibly affect more types of cells.

 

You can test this by dissolving any of the above in 99.9% DMSO and applying it to a forearm (try 15 mg dasatinib or 300 mg phytosubstance in 1 tsp DMSO). One application will either make a difference or it wont.


Edited by Fafner55, 15 January 2019 - 10:09 PM.

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#5 Rocket

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:20 PM

This is like asking if Vitamin C is really needed for the Pauling regimen for heart health. The flavonoid, Q, has very low bioavailability. There are studies where if it is mixed with oils that it can survive the digestive track. Unless you are taking very high doses, then likely Q isn't doing anything.

 

 


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#6 adamh

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 11:37 PM

If the feedback was no longer anon we would see a huge reduction in troll activity. There is someone who doesn't like pot and any thread about it or cbd usually gets dangerous irresponsible on every post that tries to discuss it

 

The prices on dasatinib are outrageous, you can see the evil hand of big pharma raiding your bank account. I will try it perhaps when the price comes down to earth somewhat.


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#7 RichardAlan

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 07:02 AM

Personally I have not found phytosubstances, like quercetin or fisetin, to be sufficiently senolytic to make a noticeable difference. In contrast, dasatinib is an extremely potent BCL-2 inhibitor that alone is sufficient.

 

I use the BCL inhibitors quercetin phytosome, curcumin phytosome, honokiol, fisetin in combination with dasatinib in an attempt to further increase its efficacy and possibly affect more types of cells.

 

You can test this by dissolving any of the above in 99.9% DMSO and applying it to a forearm (try 15 mg dasatinib or 300 mg phytosubstance in 1 tsp DMSO). One application will either make a difference or it wont.

 

What dosage of quercetin or fisetin where you taking and for how long?  What were the differences that you noticed? 


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#8 Fafner55

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 08:35 PM

What dosage of quercetin or fisetin where you taking and for how long?  What were the differences that you noticed? 

 

My senolytic  protocol comprises
120 mg dasatinib (for a 70 kg individual. Scale by body weight not to exceed 140 mg)
2000 mg quercetin phytosome 
2000 mg curcumin phytosome
2000 mg honokiol
2000 mg fisetin
 
Because of the large quantities of polyphenols in this treatment it is sensible to spread this treatment over 2 hours. Start with any of the polyphenols (because they take longer to enter the bloodstream) then take the dasatinib after 1 hour, and finish the remaining supplements over the last hour.
 
Half dose is recommended for the 1st and 2nd treatments since killing large numbers of senescent cells in the gastrointestinal tract will cause severe diarrhea. 
 
Dasatinib is a potent drug, so I don't recommend taking this treatment more than once per month.
 
Before taking senolytics, my erythrocyte sedimentation rate (a measure of inflammation) was 5. After taking this treatment 5 times my sed rate dropped to 1. It has remained between 1 and 2 since then. I have taken this treatment a total of 11 times.
 
I am not a doctor. It is prudent to start with half doses under a doctor's supervision.

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#9 Rocket

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 01:13 AM

If the feedback was no longer anon we would see a huge reduction in troll activity. There is someone who doesn't like pot and any thread about it or cbd usually gets dangerous irresponsible on every post that tries to discuss it

The prices on dasatinib are outrageous, you can see the evil hand of big pharma raiding your bank account. I will try it perhaps when the price comes down to earth somewhat.


Its not expensive at all. Mine was relatively cheap and considering how infrequently its used, it lasts. Where are you trying to buy from??
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#10 poonja

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 06:26 PM

I would also like to know where to purchase Dasatinib at a reasonable price.  The only prices I could find were in the several thousands of dollars.  Your assistance would be much appreciated.


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#11 Rocket

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 06:54 PM

I would also like to know where to purchase Dasatinib at a reasonable price.  The only prices I could find were in the several thousands of dollars.  Your assistance would be much appreciated.

 

I sent you a PM.



#12 Wayward Neuron

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 04:35 PM

A recent study published in PLOS 1 indicates that quercetin alone can damage both senescent and non-senescent cells.

 

https://journals.plo...al.pone.0190374

 


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#13 Valijon

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 05:03 AM

I have zero faith in Quercetin. If you want to take Q" go right ahead. Im in complete disagreement with the idea of it doing much.
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#14 Oakman

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:46 PM

You can test this by dissolving any of the above in 99.9% DMSO and applying it to a forearm (try 15 mg dasatinib or 300 mg phytosubstance in 1 tsp DMSO). One application will either make a difference or it wont.

 

What differences do you see on your forearm doing this with DMSO & D or phyto-s and how is this relevant to how they react in your body taken orally? I don't get the connection doing this with senolytics and their overall body effects.


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#15 Brundel

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 01:38 AM

I'm sure most of you realize this but oral quercetin is basically worthless.
Its bioavailability is so low it's just not a viable route of administration for plain quercetin.
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#16 OP2040

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 02:53 PM

I finally just took a look at the supplementary material for the human study, and now I'm rather depressed.  They used a good dosing schedule, like something we might come up with for D+Q.  They showed senescent cell removal, which is a big deal IMO. 

 

But they also did a very long list of before and after lab tests.  And while the numbers moved slightly for many of the, the overall picture it paints is rather dismal.

 

How would you guys rectify this discrepancy: 

 

1. Senescent cells were cleared

2. Some positive changes for SASP markers

2. But little to no positive change for any aging parameter lab tests that really matter, including kidney, liver, lipid profile, etc.

 

I have two possible explanations, and both are unsatisfactory

1. They "after" tests were done too soon and positive changes will be seen later.  This contradicts what is usually seen in mouse studies where they often do the tests and then

     autopsies very soon after administration.

2. These individuals were too old and too sick to benefit.  These were diabetic patients with CKD.  Again, this contradicts at least mouse studies in which very old or sick mice

     are dosed and benefit.

     a. Fibrosis - this is my favorite explanation.  In late stage disease, fibrosis is the main driver of the disease state and senolytics will not have a large effect on this process

         because it involves the ECM.  However, once again I found a mouse study that at the very least showed reduction of fibrotic markers, if not fibrosis itself.  And this is the

         very same study on IPF in mice that was done by this research group before they engaged in this study.

 

I can think of no other explanation.  Perhaps mouse studies really are holding us back and we should consider them completely worthless on all levels.  The only difference I can see is that mice retain longer telomeres for life, and this may be the limiting factor in humans for all these other interventions.  If that is the case, combining telomere elongation would immediately translate the thousands of mouse studies that failed in humans.  It's worth trying, so naturally no one will try it.  Maybe Liz Parrish will do it and we can then compare her markers alongside some schmo with normal telomeres after senescent cell removal.

 

I will be getting my D+Q soon and doing my trial.  Still excited by the prospect that this will actually remove a significant portion of them, at least that is now proven. 


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#17 treonsverdery

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 11:13 PM

Dasatinib is around $40/gram at alibaba.com



#18 Brundel

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 11:22 PM

I wouldn't suggest buying anything from alibaba.
Especially things like this. The chance is better you'll get something else than the stuff you order. Or nothing. Or something chock full of heavy metals or fungal contaminants
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#19 Rocket

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 06:59 PM

I have purchased products from Chinese suppliers with good product being received. Granted, I would rather buy from something made in the US or Canada, but China isn't all bad and if you are willing to take a little risk now and then.



#20 steven acoca

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 06:41 PM

Personally I have not found phytosubstances, like quercetin or fisetin, to be sufficiently senolytic to make a noticeable difference. In contrast, dasatinib is an extremely potent BCL-2 inhibitor that alone is sufficient.

I use the BCL inhibitors quercetin phytosome, curcumin phytosome, honokiol, fisetin in combination with dasatinib in an attempt to further increase its efficacy and possibly affect more types of cells.

You can test this by dissolving any of the above in 99.9% DMSO and applying it to a forearm (try 15 mg dasatinib or 300 mg phytosubstance in 1 tsp DMSO). One application will either make a difference or it wont.



Dasatinib is a bcl2 inhibitor? Since when?

#21 SearchingForAnswers

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 11:41 AM

It seems that the question is the % of senescent cells destroyed. I doubt it's very high, and probably not in all tissue types.

 

I finally just took a look at the supplementary material for the human study, and now I'm rather depressed.  They used a good dosing schedule, like something we might come up with for D+Q.  They showed senescent cell removal, which is a big deal IMO. 

 

But they also did a very long list of before and after lab tests.  And while the numbers moved slightly for many of the, the overall picture it paints is rather dismal.

 

How would you guys rectify this discrepancy: 

 

1. Senescent cells were cleared

2. Some positive changes for SASP markers

2. But little to no positive change for any aging parameter lab tests that really matter, including kidney, liver, lipid profile, etc.

 

I have two possible explanations, and both are unsatisfactory

1. They "after" tests were done too soon and positive changes will be seen later.  This contradicts what is usually seen in mouse studies where they often do the tests and then

     autopsies very soon after administration.

2. These individuals were too old and too sick to benefit.  These were diabetic patients with CKD.  Again, this contradicts at least mouse studies in which very old or sick mice

     are dosed and benefit.

     a. Fibrosis - this is my favorite explanation.  In late stage disease, fibrosis is the main driver of the disease state and senolytics will not have a large effect on this process

         because it involves the ECM.  However, once again I found a mouse study that at the very least showed reduction of fibrotic markers, if not fibrosis itself.  And this is the

         very same study on IPF in mice that was done by this research group before they engaged in this study.

 

I can think of no other explanation.  Perhaps mouse studies really are holding us back and we should consider them completely worthless on all levels.  The only difference I can see is that mice retain longer telomeres for life, and this may be the limiting factor in humans for all these other interventions.  If that is the case, combining telomere elongation would immediately translate the thousands of mouse studies that failed in humans.  It's worth trying, so naturally no one will try it.  Maybe Liz Parrish will do it and we can then compare her markers alongside some schmo with normal telomeres after senescent cell removal.

 

I will be getting my D+Q soon and doing my trial.  Still excited by the prospect that this will actually remove a significant portion of them, at least that is now proven. 

 


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