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7 Day Water fasting insomnia - How to deal? From Ambien to cold showers and meditation

fasting waterfast sleep insomnia

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#1 Biologist

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 10:44 PM


Having trouble sleeping day 2 and onwards during water fasts. A very common side effect. I've done 5 days before, but I need to be able to work so not sleeping isn't ideal. Looking to make a regimen to get through it!

Should I either just accept a few nights of sleeplessness and hope to get a few hours in towards the end of the fast (maybe you only need 4 hours after all in a fasted state). Or should I try to build a regimen, pharmaceutically aided or not, to get more sleep and make the whole process less stressful (in the good way) and easier to complete. My current thinking is incorporating all the interventions below, coupled with 5 mg melatonin and having antihistamines OR etizolam on hand. Let me know if you have any advice here!

INTERVENTIONS
Cold shower before bed (a handful of user reports)
Exercise before bed (a handful of users say it helps, usually exercising before bed is determinental to sleep but perhaps not in a fasted state)
Meditation in bed (Great idea IMO, you could focus on your pulse or the air coming in and out of your nose)
Only going to bed dead tired (after normal waking hours, could be better than trying to force sleep)
Stricter sleep hygiene (no blue light etc)
 
PHARMACEUTICAL AIDS
In order of potency, there are also more potent rx antihistamines available.
 
Benzos (e.g. xananx, etizolam)
+ Not drowsy the next day (at least with etizolam, depends on the half-life)
+ Very effective
= Relatively easy to get
- Can be expensive
- Dangerous drug interactions
- Addiction potential
- Some promote insulin response e.g. Clonazepam
 
Ambien
+ Not drowsy the next day
+ Very effective
- Expensive
- Dangerous drug interactions
- Hard to get
- Addiction potential
- Walrus might take you for a ride
 
Weed (esp edibles)
+ Safe
+ Legal some places
= Trippy
- Nausea with higher doses of edibles
- Illegal and hard to get other places like where I live
 
Antihistamine: Doxylamine Succinate
+ Cheap and OTC
+ Little tolerance buildup
+ Stronger than Diphenhydramine
- Drowsy next day (more so than Diphen according to most accounts)
- Longer acting than Diphenhydramine
- Not always effective
 
Antihistamine: Diphenhydramine (aka Benadryl)
+ Cheap and OTC
- Drowsy next day
- Not always effective
- Builds tolerance
 
Melatonin
+ Cheap and OTC
+ Little tolerance buildup
- Not enough on its own to knock you out
- Drowsy next day with higher doses
 
Magnesium / ZMA
+ Cheap and OTC
+ No tolerance
- Limited effect on falling asleep, more to keep you asleep?
 
Tryptophan
+ Cheap and OTC
+ No tolerance
- Limited effect on falling asleep?
- Amino acid, will break the fast or hinder autophagy

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#2 xEva

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 12:36 AM

if, in addition to not being able to fall asleep, you have high heart rate and feel queasy and just a touch nauseous, these could be signs of toxicity, which is common at the onset of ketosis, when the fats start to melt and the liver unloads lotsa bile. Some people take activated charcoal, others resort to daily enemas.

 

Re cold shower and exercise, in my experience it's the opposite: warm bath/shower and read or watch something boring. To each his own.


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#3 Biologist

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 01:17 PM

Not had any issues with feeling queasy, but good to note.

I tried a ICE cold shower last night and it really calmed me down a lot, much more than a hot shower does. Try going really hot first then finish 30 seconds ice cold.



#4 sthira

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 05:17 PM

Having trouble sleeping day 2 and onwards during water fasts. A very common side effect. I've done 5 days before, but I need to be able to work so not sleeping isn't ideal. Looking to make a regimen to get through it!

Should I either just accept a few nights of sleeplessness and hope to get a few hours in towards the end of the fast (maybe you only need 4 hours after all in a fasted state). Or should I try to build a regimen, pharmaceutically aided or not, to get more sleep and make the whole process less stressful (in the good way) and easier to complete....


Just an opinion here, and since you seem already experienced in fasting, you may have already worked out your sleeplessness issues by now.

But for me, when fasting intrudes on aspects of everyday life, I stop fasting. Return to it when it's less disruptive. If sleep interruption is affecting work because of insomnia, this seems like a reason to stop fasting.

That is, if the body is calling for less sleep, I give it less sleep. Maybe it's working out some circadian rhythm voodoo that no one comprehends, voodoo that researchers are only beginning to investigate. Maybe it's healthy that you can't sleep?

Meanwhile, I think there are very good reasons for setting aside allotted time to fast -- rest, take it easy, sleep or stay awake and pondering the great bright full moon, howl, whatever. Supervised fasts might be a tool -- where you're fasting under careful scrutiny in a dedicated facility, like True North. I've not done this, I'd like to do this, it's $150 a night for the privilege.

If your body was mine, though, I'd not try to trick it or think you'll outsmart it by taking substances aimed at drugging you into dream time. Taking stuff to prevent what the body is attempting to do during a fast would seem to be contrary to the fast itself. One key reason to even bother with abstaining from food is to reset the body -- included in the reset may be the body's sleep habits.
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#5 Biologist

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 10:09 PM

Thanks for your feedback, I think you might be right.

Without a proper level of insulin, your body will upregulate orexin in the brain until you eat (Willie, Chemelli, Sinton, & Yanagisawa, 2001). Orexin will give you artificial energy and inhibit sleep. Also Dr Cung alleged fasting expert says "The increase in nor-adrenalin and cortisol can disturb sleep. Often, we advise people to only go to sleep when tired. This can sometimes mean cutting sleep time down to 3 hours! Most who do that find they are still fully alert, so it’s fine." https://www.dietdoct...e-sleep-fasting

But also heard that insomnia can cause long term insulin resistance, which could be counter to the desired effects of fasting, something to look into more closely.

In any case, the safest regimen to me seems to be

1. Only go to bed dead tired, which might be a lot later than normal. Realize that you can get by with less sleep fasted.
2. Exercise before bed (many water fasters recommend this contrary to what you'd normally think)

3. Take a hot then ice cold shower before bed (Wim Hoff method, water fasters generally recommend cold over hot)
4. Meditate in bed, focusing on your breath or pulse. See bedtime as bonus time to meditate. Keep melatonin as a benign backup.

 


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#6 sthira

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:35 PM

1. Only go to bed dead tired, which might be a lot later than normal. Realize that you can get by with less sleep fasted.
2. Exercise before bed (many water fasters recommend this contrary to what you'd normally think)
3. Take a hot then ice cold shower before bed (Wim Hoff method, water fasters generally recommend cold over hot)
4. Meditate in bed, focusing on your breath or pulse. See bedtime as bonus time to meditate. Keep melatonin as a benign backup.

This sounds reasonable. Personally, I sleep less, too, while prolonged fasting; but then during the day I may get crazy tired from the lack. Sleep and fasting are ttricky, though, because energy levels are rising and falling often dramatically during a PF. The body is signaling sometimes frantically -- Go Find Food, You Moron.

As for exercising before bed during a long fast, that's something I can't do. Or else I'll be jacked up for more sleepless hours. Then again, it depends on what exercise means. Casually walking, restorative yoga, romping sex -- these are fine. But anything too vigorous just seems like it's priming the ancient body to go thee now and feed thyself.

I'm not one bit interested in ice baths or cold baths during fasting, haha -- I'm usually always freezing and my body temperature drops lower than usual. I seek warmth! I understand Wim Hoff's point of view; I just can't do what he can do with the body I have, which is a much different body than his. I'm naturally ectomorphic, add PFing and CE and CR and heavy exercise to my frame is just too damned much. Too much stress on my body. I don't feel like I need to squeeze every last inch out every single fast or stress on the body. Easy does it, I have to keep telling myself.

Meditation is typically great while fasting -- and for me one of the really great reasons to keep on fasting. Watching my mind at work takes all kinds of dimensions. Mental clarity, the reorganization of my thinking, the processing of traumas, bad news, joys and horrors are all great reasons why I'll keep periodic, prolonged fasting in my toolbox against the ravages of aging.

Edited by sthira, 23 January 2019 - 12:05 AM.


#7 Biologist

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:46 PM

I'm not sure about the exercise either, but i've read a handful of recommendations for it. Normally it would keep me awake.

Ice cold showers might indeed not be for everyone, but they definitely are for me as a younger, more muscular Wim Hoff. Still, it's only neurological, it's not as if your core temperature goes down after 30 seconds and it's pure bliss going into bed afterwards. You should try it, a bit of stress is good isn't that why we fast in the first place  :cool: 

 


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#8 sthira

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 12:16 AM

Sure, I agree ice baths and encouraging my body adapt to the increasing cold are very good for me indeed. Just not in combination with fasting. You sound much hardier in this way than I am. Heating the body a la saunas and steam baths like they do in Russia are way more yes-able to me.

I agree with you about stressing the body to make it more resilient. We silly apes aren't much different from most other forms of life on the planet, all of which seem to strengthen under stress. Insert tired out old Nietzsche quote here...

Don't die before the singularity.
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#9 Kimer Med

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 08:19 AM

Here's my approach to sleep hygeine:

 

1. Allow enough time for sleep. Most people need 7–9 hours of sleep each day.
2. Avoid heavy meals for at least 3 hrs before sleep, since they can cause a middle-of-the-night blood sugar drop, followed by an adrenaline surge, which can wake you up. If you’re hungry, snacks high in fat will have the least chance of disrupting your sleep.
3. No caffeine after lunch. This includes hidden caffeine, such as chocolate.
4. Avoid excitotoxins at all times, such as MSG and Aspartame.
5. Arrange a sleep environment that is very dark (seal off all sources of light from windows, cracks under doors, face clocks away from the bed, etc.), comfortable, quiet, and cool to facilitate falling asleep quickly and staying asleep. The rule of thumb is that if you can read a newspaper headline, then it's not dark enough.
6. No TV in the bedroom. If you need some type of noise or distraction to fall asleep, try radio instead as it is a less engaging medium. White noise, such as from a fan, is even better.
7. Exercise for twenty to thirty minutes or so five to six hours before sleep, but not immediately before sleep.
8. Taking a Melatonin supplement about 30 minutes before you want to sleep can help make you sleepy. The feeling doesn't last long, though, so it's best not to fight it when it comes on. You may have to experiment with the dose. 1 mg or less is enough for some people, others might need up to 20 mg.
9. Block the blue spectrum of the light for two to three hours before bed; blue light destroys Melatonin. You might try the f.lux application on your PC, which reduces blue light from your screen in the evening. Blu-blocker type sunglasses (amber lenses) worn indoors can also be effective.
10. Avoid sleeping pills, except in truly urgent scenarios! They can make things worse in the long run.
11. Magnesium helps relax muscles and can reduce anxiety. Supplementing it can help with sleep. You may have to experiment with dose; too much, and it acts as a laxative. Mag citrate ("Natural Calm" brand), Mag glycinate and Mag orotate are good forms. Avoid Mag oxide.
12. Use a flashlight or other dim light to see if you have to go the bathroom in the middle of the night, so that you don’t expose yourself to excess light, especially white light (some people use red lights in their bathrooms).
13. Light reading or a bath before bed is a good way to prepare for sleep, but avoid reading in bed — use a different room.
14. Avoid stressful or stimulating activities for at least 3 hrs before bed, since they can cause your body to secrete cortisol, associated with alertness. Eating also increases cortisol.
15. Alcohol is a double-edged sword. It can help you feel relaxed, but it can also play havoc with your sleep. Red wine before bed can be particularly bad, since it contains Resveratrol, which can lower your blood sugar and thereby cause an adrenalin spike in the middle of the night.
16. Have a careful, thorough look at the side-effects of all prescription medications and supplements you may be taking. There are quite a few of both that can interfere with sleep.
17. If you're in bed and can’t fall sleep, go do something else (ideally something relaxing, and not stimulating) until you feel you can, and then go back to bed.
18. Do you have sleep apnea? If so, it can interfere terribly with sleep quality. If you snore, it's more likely you do. Often waking up with a start in the middle of the night is another symptom. Consider having a sleep study to be sure.
 

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