4 replies to this topic

[Rosanna]

Hi

 

I'm interested in your thoughts.  My dog is 14 but otherwise very lively and active and people think he's a pup.  However he's developed a lump in his mouth.  It seems from talking to two vets in person and three online, that if this should be aggressive then it will be aggressive even if cut out, etc. because in the mouth you cannot get the 2 cm margins you need without radical surgery and removals of part of the jaw.  And even if this were to take place, recurrence is likely and therefore, I ask, why do it?  Why put a dog through that if it's not going to make much difference to length or quality of life?

 

If it turns out to be benign then removal is useful in that recurrence is much less likely and my dog gets to live the rest of his happy active life without the lump in his mouth.  And I've been told he could have 4 - 5 more years as he's otherwise healthy.

 

I'm curious when I talk to the vets they all say it's good to get it cut out because 'we will know what it is,' but doesn't that just serve our human anxiety rather than treat the animal, it's an information gathering exercise without there being any useful treatment for the animal (unless of course it's benign and we only find that out by cutting the thing out and analysing it, ok I get that, but the rush to do it because of potential melanoma, etc, doesn't seem to be much point to rush into it because the excision of the tumour is really just 'de-bulking' it and not complete removal.  Once you know what it is you can ask for a more radical surgery, if you want your poor dog to be without part of a jaw, etc, and the chances of recurrence are still high, within months).

 

One of the vets said to me if I choose to do nothing, not to come later and try and get treatment, that the decision has to be now.  I can't help thinking that this has the purpose of gaining momentum from a pet owner's fear, not giving time to think.  And up to now I hadn't thought of money at all because my dog is precious to me, but now I'm thinking that.......well, because a vet kept telling me it was 'good to know what it is' despite there not being much to do if it's bad, I'm just thinking there's money to be made from pet owner's fear.......

 

Am I being too skeptical?  Appreciate your thoughts.

 

And of course I'm here to see what other's think in terms of natural treatments and supplements.  I'm giving a quarter teaspoon of tumeric daily, which seems to be well tolerated so far.  

 

Thanks for reading.  :-)

[Colorow]

I am a veterinarian and I have been in this type of situation many times. Oral tumors are often highly malignant, more often than not. But if the location/size is such that you will not have clean margins and a possible cure then what good is it to “know” what you are dealing with? There are some rare issues that mimic tumors (fungal infections/osteomyelitis] but usually a good clinician has a pretty good idea if something infectious is a possibility.

If you are comfortable with benign neglect, do exactly that. If the tumor is malignant it will progress and you can make decisions to mitigate suffering. If it is not you will have most likely made the right decision.

Keep in mind that the lump may grow and cause problems malignant or not. In that situation you will regret not dealing with it at a smaller size. The good news is that if it is not malignant progression, if any, will be much slower and you would have more time to make decisions about care.

The veterinarian is most likely thinking of the scenario where you essentially change your mind about not treating and it is too late to help at all. We have all seen clients do that. No fun, lots of guilt all around.

Money is less likely to be involved. Most veterinarians chose veterinary medicine despite the low pay and difficult hours. I doubt your veterinarian is trying to take advantage of your anxiety. They are likely just trying to apprise you of all the risks associated with delaying a decision.

My personal opinion is that we need to mitigate suffering in our pets. We try to make good decisions in their best interests but that does not always mean “best medicine” with full bore diagnostics/treatment. Depending on the breed, a 14 year old dog is pretty aged. I think 4-5 years more is an aggressive longevity estimate even in a toy breed.

I am sorry you and your dog are going through this. Feel better, and trust your own instincts on what is best overall for your pet along with your own life. Then don’t second guess yourself when/if things get rough. I believe owners almost always know when it is time to let their pets go, don’t feel guilty and do your best.

[Mind]

Maybe try alcohol, if it is accessible-near the surface.

 

https://www.iflscien...-using-alcohol/ Works on mice.

[Rosanna]

Thanks Colorow2 and Mind

 

I will come back to this as it is late right now.  I appreciate the thoughts. Things have progressed since my original post.  I got swept up in the momentum of other's wishes and so 

my dog did receive conservative surgery.  Sadly the biopsy has come back as a melanoma.  And yes, now I'm wondering why more radical surgery wasn't done straight away, but I guess there are ethical issues with doing that when you don't know what it is.  And yes, I can see I've gone from thinking no surgery is best to considering the radical surgery, but it's just that it got cut out, but not all of it (or at least that's most likely).

 

I did start another thread on this.  In my exhaustion I unfortunately dug up a thread by a poster named Rolf who was asking about melanoma and then responded as if it were current.  Apologies to Rolf if he reads this.  I then started my own thread about the melanoma but put it in the wrong forum.

 

lol, on that note I will return when I'm lucid, but just wanted to say thanks for the responses, and Colorow2, I didn't mean to sound quite so skeptical of vets.  It was the data, given to me by a vet that actually did it, but I'm grateful for all they've done recently for us.  My dog is currently active and happy and has the devil in him most days  :-)

 

 

edited:  to add what's written in another thread about the melanoma:  

 

Before the appearance of the tumour  I was hoping to get my vet to agree to a rapamycin trial for possible lifespan extension.....accepting it's a very new and experimental treatment.  Unfortunately I didn't get to speak to the vet about it and I think there's a general avoidance of anything 'alternative.'  I will be discussing it again, though this time in relation to the diagnosis.

 

I am using a quarter teaspoon of turmeric once a day and I'm wondering if anyone can help with other supplements in terms of knowledge of whether they can be used in dogs.  I have tried to make appointments with naturopathic vets and I'm getting appointments scheduled for a month from now, so I'm looking to try a few things myself but with safety in mind.  

 

Wondering if anyone has any knowledge on the use of Co Enzyme Q10 in dogs?  Cordyceps mushrooms, resveratrol, green tea.....Astralagus, read something about it inhibiting melanoma................I have a lot of reading to do, so just thought I'd share here as it may help others.  One challenge is that my dog lives with my mother and she's not willing or able to try everything (gets overwhelmed with information), but I will do my best.  She's embraced the idea of using turmeric.

 

Thanks for reading and all thoughts are welcome.  :-)

Edited by Rosanna, 16 April 2019 - 12:25 AM.

[Rosanna]

I'll share this with the vet, again discussing rapamycin but this time with the melanoma in mind and not lifespan extension.....  https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19231960  thoughts on this are welcome.

 

This dog is different from the other's we've had.  He's been through 2 traumatic bereavements with us, witnessed them, and in his own way has helped us cope as well as grieved with us.  Just explaining the effort being put in here.