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Sublingual NMN neurotoxic risk?

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#31 able

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 11:04 PM

I'm just trying to figure out if your  admitted 500,000 shares of Chromadex makes you so biased you cannot understand very basic logic, or what.

 

If SLC12a8 were ubiqutious, then yes, a sublingual NMN could perhaps transport NMN directly into cells everywhere and perhaps lead to an accumulation in cells of chemo patients more so than a NR or NMN capsule.

 

 

But as you very well know, the research clearly showed that Slc12a8 was only prevalent in small intestine (and less in liver), which is not involved at all in sublingual.  


Edited by able, 12 April 2019 - 11:29 PM.

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#32 stefan_001

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 07:32 AM

@able you still don't understand what I mean. The mechanism of high NMN with low NAD+ being neurotoxic is something that is observed in chemotherapy but can also occur in other circumstances. So when you take NMN sublingual are you at risk to selectively create the same circumstances as observed in cells undergoing chemotherapy? The Sinclair study show a very rapid absorption and spiking of NMN levels.

 

Let me ask it differently would you recommend sublingual NMN in the case described here:

https://www.longecit...n-degeneration/

 

If you think the answer is yes then post a link that has analyzed the expression of SLC12a8 in the eye tissues. Would I recommend sublingual NR? No I would not but I see the risk factors there lower as the NRK path is slightly more indirect. Oral NR capsules would be the safest as that is the most natural path.

 

As for you offending / calling out / challenging my motivations (and no I don't have 500k shares) is that also your MoO in real life when you don't like something? Let me at least clarify this. My INCOME is not related in anyway to the supplement industry. Yours? You have a stock portfolio? Because then you know that shares you buy and sell at the press of a button, most people that invested in the time I did have a nice profit if they sell today. There are plenty of investment opportunities and when a stocks potential leaks out you move on. Chromadex from an investment perspective is a very high risk investment, the success of the company is entirely related to a successful go to market campaign that reaches a broad global audience. Something that you will not find on this board.

 


Edited by stefan_001, 13 April 2019 - 08:20 AM.

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#33 able

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 05:07 PM

@able you still don't understand what I mean. The mechanism of high NMN with low NAD+ being neurotoxic is something that is observed in chemotherapy but can also occur in other circumstances. 

 

Do you have anything other than your imagination to back up this claim?  I understood that the cells that have been damaged by chemo could not process NMN to NAD+, so NMN could build up.  Why do you believe that happens in normal cells?

 

 


The Sinclair study show a very rapid absorption and spiking of NMN levels.

 
Not really.  They showed some NMN is rapidly absorbed, but show no indication of quantity.  The quantity that can be processed by slc12a8 IN SMALL INTESTINE, is likely very little, else they would have  shown some indication of quantity.  Dr Sinclair himself confirmed this view when he says:
 
 
 
So even Dr Sinclair doesn't believe Slc12a8 is ubiquitious and obviates the need for some transport by NRK's across cell membrane.
 
Are you really saying that both Dr Brenner and Dr Sinclair are wrong, and that Slc12a8 can quickly and easily transport sublingual  NMN directly into cells throughout the body, in such sufficient quantity that it can be toxic to normal cells?  
 
 
 
 

 

 

As for you offending / calling out / challenging my motivations (and no I don't have 500k shares) is that also your MoO in real life when you don't like something? Let me at least clarify this. My INCOME is not related in anyway to the supplement industry. Yours? You have a stock portfolio? Because then you know that shares you buy and sell at the press of a button, most people that invested in the time I did have a nice profit if they sell today. There are plenty of investment opportunities and when a stocks potential leaks out you move on. Chromadex from an investment perspective is a very high risk investment, the success of the company is entirely related to a successful go to market campaign that reaches a broad global audience. Something that you will not find on this board.

 
 
I have no stocks or financial interests in NAD+ precursors.  I am not a doctor or researcher, or have any special knowledge about NAD+ or even basic biology.  I am just an 60 year old retired "health nut" who became interested in NR thru livecellresearch, and learned all I know about NAD+ from this forum and reading the research. I don't even think it is the most important thing you can do for health - being far outweighed by diet, exercise, and other lifestyle choices like avoiding excessive stress.  It just bothers me that people like you and Mikedc can't control your bias.  It looks like you started this thread with the sole intent of defaming competition for your stock based entirely on some imaginary possibility.
 
 
1.  Slc12a8 is NOT ubiquitios throughout the body
 
2.   Even if #1 were true, there is NO REASON to believe your fantasy that  normal cells can/would bring in toxic amounts of NMN in and poison themselves
 
3.   Even if #1 & 2 were true, there is no reason to believe NMN would enter and poison normal cells, but NR would magically remain patiently outside of cells.
 
 

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#34 stefan_001

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 05:43 PM

@able From my perspective it seems you are calling the kettle black and the one that suffers from imagination and bias is you, a 60-year old man. The reality is I am transparent and simply stated I bought the shares if that makes you make belief all I write is biased then enjoy my future posts and keep burning your nerves.

 

You think as a 60 years old all your cells are healthy? You didnt answer the question would you recommend sublingual NMN in the case described here:

https://www.longecit...n-degeneration/

 

or would you stay away and take oral capsules that provide a more indirect path and hence less risk for damage. I gave the answer what I think already.


Edited by stefan_001, 13 April 2019 - 05:49 PM.

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#35 able

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 06:54 PM

@able From my perspective it seems you are calling the kettle black and the one that suffers from imagination and bias is you, a 60-year old man. The reality is I am transparent and simply stated I bought the shares if that makes you make belief all I write is biased then enjoy my future posts and keep burning your nerves.

 

You think as a 60 years old all your cells are healthy? You didnt answer the question would you recommend sublingual NMN in the case described here:

https://www.longecit...n-degeneration/

 

or would you stay away and take oral capsules that provide a more indirect path and hence less risk for damage. I gave the answer what I think already.

 

As you know, there is often research on both sides of a question.  If I had wallerian degeneration I would study that a lot more to decide  if the possible risks of taking NAD+ precursors outweighed what I feel are obvious benefits.

 

If  your concern was limited to that specfic case, why did you not post in that thread, but felt the need to start a brand new thread implying NMN is dangerous for all users, when there is zero reason for that fantasy?


Edited by able, 13 April 2019 - 06:57 PM.

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#36 stefan_001

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 07:26 PM

@able you make this a polarized discussion. I wrote in the opening "perhaps too much NMN in circulation has negative side effects" and I will post new research that will come out related to that topic here. In the mean time keep putting that NMN under your tongue 6 times a day.


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#37 ryukenden

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 07:21 AM

@able you make this a polarized discussion. I wrote in the opening "perhaps too much NMN in circulation has negative side effects" and I will post new research that will come out related to that topic here. In the mean time keep putting that NMN under your tongue 6 times a day.

.

Anything can have negative side effects if taken too much. I now take NMN 4-5 days a week one small cup sublingual. My wife takes one tablet of NR 4-5 days a week. Worried about potential side effects and hence reduced the doses.

Edited by ryukenden, 16 April 2019 - 07:22 AM.


#38 ceridwen

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 01:27 PM

I have memory loss. Should I still take NMN? I am trying to decide whether or not to take some now before going to the sauna. I rescued my jar from the bin yesterday. It ended up in there because of this thread although it felt like throwing money away. Then I read that it rebuilds vasculature and I rescued it. Does the advice above apply to me or should I avoid it. I don't know. It would be confusing even if I wasn't confused.
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#39 able

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 02:20 PM

I have memory loss. Should I still take NMN? I am trying to decide whether or not to take some now before going to the sauna. I rescued my jar from the bin yesterday. It ended up in there because of this thread although it felt like throwing money away. Then I read that it rebuilds vasculature and I rescued it. Does the advice above apply to me or should I avoid it. I don't know. It would be confusing even if I wasn't confused.

 

 

Ceridwen - The title of this current thread is pure fantasy, with zero evidence.

 

 

For reality, the thread below is about research published last week that shows NMN increases blood flow in the brain and improves cognition in older mice.

 

 

 

https://www.longecit...n-in-aged-mice/


Edited by able, 16 April 2019 - 02:54 PM.

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#40 Phoebus

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 03:04 PM

I have memory loss. Should I still take NMN? I am trying to decide whether or not to take some now before going to the sauna. I rescued my jar from the bin yesterday. It ended up in there because of this thread although it felt like throwing money away. Then I read that it rebuilds vasculature and I rescued it. Does the advice above apply to me or should I avoid it. I don't know. It would be confusing even if I wasn't confused.

 

 

 

IN my personal non-expert opinion you would do better with pure NAD+ powder sublingual. It can cross the BBB and be taken up direclty by the hippocampus. I have had excellent results with it personally. I add a bit of propylene glycol to increase sublingual absorption which really seems to work. 


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#41 Fredrik

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 03:43 PM

IN my personal non-expert opinion you would do better with...

 

No. Just no.

 

I don´t think anyone should follow the advice of your gut feelings on this matter.

 

Please direct us to the pharmacokinetic study in humans of oral NAD+ supplementation and the evidence for NAD+ crossing the human BBB and being used by neurons.


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#42 able

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:03 PM

This entire thread is based on extending conjecture from a very specific mouse study.

 

Why are human studies the requirement ?  Most of us used NR long before there was any human research, and we shared out experiences in the personal experience thread.

 

We probably could use a thread on personal experiences with NAD+, to avoid cluttering other threads like this.

 

 

 

 

 


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#43 Phoebus

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:18 PM

No. Just no.

 

I don´t think anyone should follow the advice of your gut feelings on this matter.

 

Please direct us to the pharmacokinetic study in humans of oral NAD+ supplementation and the evidence for NAD+ crossing the human BBB and being used by neurons.

 

 

None! they don't exist. And as such its up to us to experiment if we so choose, or not to. 

 

Exogenous NAD+ crosses the BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER intact, increases NAD content in Hypothalamus,   increases energy and decreases appetite...in mice. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ic-connexin-43/

 

But yeah the subject of taking NAD and NAD precursors is very young and not a lot of data out there. caveat emptor and all that. There are many case reports of human NAD+ IV usage in this FDA file

 

https://www.fda.gov/...e/UCM606790.pdf

 

very interesting reading. 


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