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your favorite supplement, curcumin, and liver disease

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#1 GABAergic

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:04 PM


https://www.nutraing...ian-authorities

 

i knew higher absorption products will cause liver issues. i keep saying this to people but why do you guys keep trying to get better absorption from supplements?? you do know they naturally are cleaned out from our systems to prevent issues right? so yeah they mention a single product contributing to this but the point is clear; any enhanced curcumin or most herbals WILL cause some issues like this! you people should get it by now i hope.


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#2 ta5

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 10:10 PM

Curcumin isn’t the problem. There is something wrong with that particular product and that lot number that is being recalled.
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#3 GABAergic

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 03:48 AM

Curcumin isn’t the problem. There is something wrong with that particular product and that lot number that is being recalled.

 

you know about green tea extracts? i remember first time i posted article of liver failure which included use of a specific product and people were like "nah its the brand, not the actual extract". now days lots of articles of a lot of different products popping out having the same issue.

look, you are taking curcumin and you love it, but try to see things two ways at least. no, its not perfect believe it or not. 10 years from now i hope this warning pops up. because, in point to fact, it took a really long time people to catch up with green tea extract's detrimental effects. and its funny, but i have to mention this but  i remember when when i  first drank actual curcumin tea and nobody even know about what it is. like about 15 years ago. back then i thought this stuff has potential but i never thought one day it will be so huge and popular OR most importantly be an actual liver disease causer. anyway only if i followed my senses and started the whole curcumin craze with simple in vitro studies i can do at home. oh boy! but life is strange.

anyway, remember kids, MORE IS NOT BETTER.


Edited by GABAergic, 18 May 2019 - 03:52 AM.

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#4 ryukenden

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 08:24 AM

https://www.nutraing...ian-authorities

i knew higher absorption products will cause liver issues. i keep saying this to people but why do you guys keep trying to get better absorption from supplements?? you do know they naturally are cleaned out from our systems to prevent issues right? so yeah they mention a single product contributing to this but the point is clear; any enhanced curcumin or most herbals WILL cause some issues like this! you people should get it by now i hope.

On the same website, I find the following article which states that Curcumin helps liver function in overweight people.

https://www.nutraing...erweight-people


Are you aware of any other Curcumin products by different companies causing the same issue?

Edited by ryukenden, 18 May 2019 - 08:25 AM.

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#5 pamojja

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 10:00 AM

I've taken both green tea extract - ~260 mg EGCG - and 95% turmeric extracts - ~670 mg/d cucurmin - for 10 years. Though these are only averages. And I took even about 340 EGCG for 3 years, and 1080 mg cucurmin for 3 years too. Incidentally I suffered from a NAFLD 20 years ago and before starting to supplement a ultra-sound found 2 non-circulated nodules on the right edge of the liver (5 + 8mm). All gone now.

 

Though I too always would advise start low and increasing slow over weeks, months and years with any new supplement. An adverse reaction, anaphylactic shock, or slow organ damage could also be caused by any of the other ingredients. Along with monitoring lab-testing.


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#6 Dorian Grey

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 01:36 PM

A PubMed search for: curcumin liver, comes up with 1265 results spanning several decades of research.  If there is an association of adverse effects with liver disease, someone should have noticed this by now with the amount of research that's been done.  

 

Let's get to work and see what we can find.  


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#7 Kevnzworld

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 11:37 PM

There is something to this. Taking many high potency polyphenol supplements together may affect liver function. I noticed that my liver enzymes had begun to rise, and be more adversely affected by alcohol consumption.
I had been taking a high dose of green tea extract ( LEF ), that I eliminated. My liver enzymes are somewhat better now.
I noticed that LEF now makes a green tea extract with much lower concentration. I’ve begun using that instead.
I also take a high absorption Curcumin , and will continue to monitor my liver enzymes to see if that needs reducing as well. But for now all is ok.
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#8 joelcairo

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 01:36 AM

There is something to this. Taking many high potency polyphenol supplements together may affect liver function. I noticed that my liver enzymes had begun to rise, and be more adversely affected by alcohol consumption.
I had been taking a high dose of green tea extract ( LEF ), that I eliminated. My liver enzymes are somewhat better now.
I noticed that LEF now makes a green tea extract with much lower concentration. I’ve begun using that instead.
I also take a high absorption Curcumin , and will continue to monitor my liver enzymes to see if that needs reducing as well. But for now all is ok.

 

You are assuming you have perfect knowledge. It doesn't matter what any science says, you have always known polyphenols can cause liver disease. Even though the original article you posted is specifically about a contaminated batch, it somehow proves you were right all along. Also you are able to pinpoint exactly what foods you have ingested cause your liver enzymes to go up and down for what reason. The fact is, there is a lot of clinical evidence showing curcumin to be liver protective, and numerous clinical trials have failed to identify liver damage as a risk.


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#9 GABAergic

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 03:16 AM

i believe its the extraction process using various toxic solvents causing health issues. and since turmeric is sourced from either inidia or china with little to no control, you can be sure there will be issues. i contacted few companies manufacturing various extracts and they all say their source is china or india

with a little bit of digging, i found out most if not all patented curcumin sold in the US, is in fact extracted by harsh solvents and always 100% indian or chinese source.

now, IF pharmaceuticals which are tightly controlled by FDA unlike supplements, are mainly sourced from those two countries, and if you google the current issues with cancer causing low  blood pressure medicine, why wouldnt it happen with supplements which have little to no control?

i would be very careful if i was any of you people.


Edited by GABAergic, 19 May 2019 - 03:21 AM.

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#10 Dorian Grey

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 04:16 PM

I'll throw GABA a bone here and say I did notice the turmeric my girlfriend takes has a California Prop-65 warning at the store where we shop.  I googled around and it seems a lot of turmeric contains some lead (2.5-10ppm), which probably triggered the warning.  My Life Extension Super Bio-Curcumin does not have this warning.  


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#11 Dorian Grey

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 04:26 PM

In researching quercetin, I found some authors who believe it may be unwise to take it more than once a day.  Apparently, the body eliminates quercetin quite rapidly, and some believe this happens for a reason.  Sorry I don't have sources for you but it has something to do with cell division.  

 

I came to believe though quercetin has beneficial properties (principally iron chelation), it may be best to let it do its thing and then move on, and multiple dosing per day may be counterproductive.  Don't know the same might be true for curcumin, but I err on the "less is more" side with most every supp I take.  



#12 micro2000

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 05:13 PM

IMO it's more likely a subset of the population are more susceptible to hepatic injury to these products. Possibly everyone would get hepatic injury at some higher dose, but the millions who have used them with no problems and the small number who have suggests a polymorphism that makes them more susceptible to certain compounds.

Edited by micro2000, 19 May 2019 - 05:15 PM.

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#13 Mind

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 06:12 PM

(Warning: Opinion) This is a rule of thumb I have developed over the years of scanning the science and reading this forum.

 

More is almost never better - when it comes to supplements.

 

There is a dose response curve to everything. Unfortunately, it is human nature to "turn it up to 11" on everything, and blow through the dose response curve by orders of magnitude.


Edited by Mind, 19 May 2019 - 06:12 PM.

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#14 BasicBiO

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:07 PM

(Warning: Opinion) This is a rule of thumb I have developed over the years of scanning the science and reading this forum.

 

More is almost never better - when it comes to supplements.

 

There is a dose response curve to everything. Unfortunately, it is human nature to "turn it up to 11" on everything, and blow through the dose response curve by orders of magnitude.

 

 

I agree and we should be mindful of the differences between trying to achieve a therapeutic dose of a base herb and taking large amounts of a highly refined extract. A lot of people do not realize that a strong ECGC supplement is already the equivalent of drinking 20-30 cups of tea...then they'll take several pills per day and end up sick.

 

I also agree with Micro2000 in that I also suspect that a subset of the population has some sort of genetic difference that makes them prone to liver damage from ECGC. I also suspect the patients may have had preexisting conditions or flirt with alcoholism, acetaminophen use/abuse etc.  Millions take these supplements, hundreds at most develop issues.



#15 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 12:53 AM

Since they are recalling certain date lot codes of product this seems to be a problem with a particular batch rather than an issue with taking curcumin in general.

 

It would have been nice however if the article provided more detail.  Horribly written.

 

 

 


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#16 GABAergic

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:27 AM

yeah bad article. but im certain this issue will continue and we will get better articles. something worries me about those high dose super bioavailable curcumin supplements that keep coming out. ill wait when people start taking them and see if any similar articles appear


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#17 William Sterog

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:45 AM

Don't mind GABAergic, he is the new Normalizing. Everything does damage to him, and he is always able to cherry pick and misunderstand research in able to justify his fears and nocebos. He is in every single thread of this forum making the same thing again and again.
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#18 brosci

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:56 PM

In this new light, I'm not sure what to make of my new polyphenol stack purchase.

  • Pomella Pomegranate Extract (265mg)
  • Quercetin (255mg)
  • Longvida Curcumin (200mg)
  • Bitter Orange Extract (200mg)
  • MegaNatural Grape Extract (150mg)
  • AuroraBlue Blueberry Extract (150mg)
  • Apple Polyphenols (150mg)
  • MegaNatural Grape Seed Extract (100mg)
  • Chokeberry Extract (100mg)

Is the consensus more that it's the impurities rather than the polyphenols which cause issues? If you are going to supplement, is it better to take it all in the morning fasted or spead over the day / with meals wrt liver processing?



#19 William Sterog

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 04:46 PM

In this new light, I'm not sure what to make of my new polyphenol stack purchase.

  • Pomella Pomegranate Extract (265mg)
  • Quercetin (255mg)
  • Longvida Curcumin (200mg)
  • Bitter Orange Extract (200mg)
  • MegaNatural Grape Extract (150mg)
  • AuroraBlue Blueberry Extract (150mg)
  • Apple Polyphenols (150mg)
  • MegaNatural Grape Seed Extract (100mg)
  • Chokeberry Extract (100mg)
Is the consensus more that it's the impurities rather than the polyphenols which cause issues? If you are going to supplement, is it better to take it all in the morning fasted or spead over the day / with meals wrt liver processing?

What light? That some crappy company have sold two adultered batches? Did you even read the article?
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#20 brosci

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 05:00 PM

What light? That some crappy company have sold two adultered batches? Did you even read the article?

 

My mistake, I had just recently read this one: https://www.reddit.c...e_liver_damage/ and assumed there was some association between these sorts of polyphenol-rich plant extracts (eg. EGCG) and liver issues.



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#21 Dorian Grey

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 05:06 PM

In this new light, I'm not sure what to make of my new polyphenol stack purchase.

  • Pomella Pomegranate Extract (265mg)
  • Quercetin (255mg)
  • Longvida Curcumin (200mg)
  • Bitter Orange Extract (200mg)
  • MegaNatural Grape Extract (150mg)
  • AuroraBlue Blueberry Extract (150mg)
  • Apple Polyphenols (150mg)
  • MegaNatural Grape Seed Extract (100mg)
  • Chokeberry Extract (100mg)

Is the consensus more that it's the impurities rather than the polyphenols which cause issues? If you are going to supplement, is it better to take it all in the morning fasted or spead over the day / with meals wrt liver processing?

 

One thing to consider is that most polyphenols are anti-thiamine / thiaminase.  If you consume polyphenols with every meal, you may hamper thiamine utilization.  


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