45 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

I am sure the movie will be enjoyable for Dems and Socialists.

I am neither, but I still think it looks pretty good. I will reserve judgement till I see it, however, and let you guys know what I think.

rahein, I am kind of with you. Perhaps this will be a wakeup call that Americans will actually listen to on how we are harming the planet.

[maestro949]

Perhaps this will be a wakeup call that Americans will actually listen to on how we are harming the planet.

1. Many Americans don't know the phone is ringing
2. Many of those that hear the message have chosen to believe it's an evil ploy by a hated foe out to get them
3. Of those that aren't brainwashed into believing anything outside their fragile meme, a percentage are apathetic to the fact we are potentially destroying our ecosystem
4. Of those that care, many feel there is little that can be done or are afraid to try
5. Of those that care and have a positive attitude towards change lack the recognition of 1-4

Barring a major cataclismic event (economic collapse, world war, major environmental disaster, etc) don't put your faith in good intentioned grassroots efforts to sway opinions of closed minds that are tuned into the meme of fear and hatred of progress.

[mikelorrey]

I still remember when I was Al Gore's posterboy for reinventing government, on the pages of the Washington Post, right up until I cornered his peeps about how Gore worked to kill the Energy Tax, by amending the EPA's proposed Carbon Tax and replacing it with a BTU Tax that nobody liked, so it was killed. Gore's quid pro quo, of course, was because he represented the state that produced and consumed the most coal in the country.... of course, mentioning this particular "inconvenient truth" got me and my company blackballed by the Clinton Administration...

This turn of events got me interested in investigating the whole global warming scam on an ongoing basis. The sunspot pattern variations over time, the variations in north-south migration speeds, the frequency, etc, and given we are in the end stages of the longest sustained period of consistent repeated solar maxima since the medeival warming period (prior to the Little Ice Age), as well as predictions of a repeat of the Maunder Minimum starting in 2022, as well as research I've read on the impact of cosmic rays on cloud formation and how cosmic rays are blocked by strong solar wind, it becomes rather clear that rather more than 30% of measured warming is solar caused. 30% can be attributed purely to solar insolation, but they don't calculate the effect of the current low terran albedo caused by low cloud formation rates due to high solar wind blocking Cosmic Ray activity. Nor do they calculate how climatic feedback effects from these solar forcings contribute dynamically to warming.

[scottl]

I am sure the movie will be enjoyable for Dems and Socialists.

You mean those are two seperate groups ?

[Lazarus Long]

(Scottl)

QUOTE (Mind)
I am sure the movie will be enjoyable for Dems and Socialists.


You mean those are two seperate groups ? 

No more the same group than suggesting that *Pub's* and Fascists are.

Really Scott, I find one of the serious problems with this and a number of currently raging debates today, is the extent to which polarization has become SOP and the idea of complex problems deserving complex objective analysis that defies simple dichotomy has become unacceptable (or undesirable) to those all too willing to accept (if not demanding) simplistic solutions due to their psycho-social need for self serving solutions.

This is true of all sides of the global warming debate as exemplified by the initial premise of this thread, but also by many in the environmental movement that want to only blame humanity. The fact is that there are some things that we can do and some that we cannot and it is time to move past the point of claiming that there is nothing we can do or that we are completely innocent of contributing to the problem.

Conversely the environmentalists that vilify all aspects of human activity are also missing the point. Their expectations of altered impact solely from changes in human behavior are unrealistic given the breadth and volume of social conduct, not to mention the magnitude of astronomical, climactic, and geophysical cycles.

There is a desperate need to integrate the different complex models for natural cycles (note that is PLURAL) and quantify the impact from MULTIPLE human sources in those models. This is no small task and one that will never be solved through denial. It is also one that is like a ticking bomb and will have escalating, possibly catastrophic socioeconomic impact. Doing nothing will yield a crisis and doing the wrong things the same but some of what we can do will only exchange one crisis for another, often an exchange of long term environmental and economic damage for short term economic hardship.

What is more important is to determine whether or not such sacrifice will have legitimate positive impact and the pragmatics of how to most effectively and fairly distribute the hardships. What will never happen is a single simple solution that makes everyone happy.

[Lazarus Long]

Here are some examples:


Hurricanes to Unleash Dormant, Hidden Power
http://news.yahoo.co...manthiddenpower


Study: Global Warming Making Hurricanes Stronger
http://www.livescien...s_stronger.html

but also the impact on New Orleans wasn't just because of the hurricanes but also subsidence that had gone unnoticed prior to the event and the level of uncertainty associated with validating a prediction with a specific individual.

New Orleans sinking faster than thought
http://news.yahoo.co...GZ1BHNlYwMxNzAw

and the denial leads to mental fatigue for people that are not prepared to remain forever on their guard and prefer the false security of ignorant complacency or bias, are totally overwhelmed by the magnitude of information and complexity of the problems or prefer total reliance on what are essentially fallible systems whether religious, political, or economic in structure.

Hurricane Predictions: Can You Trust Them?
http://news.yahoo.co...canyoutrustthem

Officials worry about 'hurricane fatigue' as another tough season arrives
http://www.sun-senti...sfla-news-front

Corps takes blame for New Orleans flooding
http://news.yahoo.co...m4yBHNlYwNmYw--

Ultimately the problem is that the political process of polarization creates compromise and often this is not just a solution that pleases no one but is just not an adequate solution.

Incomplete system blamed for Katrina crisis
http://news.yahoo.co...m4yBHNlYwNmYw--

To quote an old adage:
"A chain is only as strong as its weakest link."

Inadequate solutions are no solution at all.

[jackinbox]

[quote][quote] (Scottl)



Really Scott, I find one of the serious problems with this and a number of currently raging debates today, is the extent to which polarization has become SOP and the idea of complex problems deserving complex objective analysis that defies simple dichotomy has become unacceptable (or undesirable) to those all too willing to accept (if not demanding) simplistic solutions due to their psycho-social need for self serving solutions.
.[/quote]

Very good post Lazarus. I'm worried about the polarization of politics and many others debate going on in United States. I consider this problem as a serious threat to democracy. I have the feeling that democracy isn't evolving in the right direction.

[scottl]

I have the feeling that democracy isn't evolving in the right direction.

The understatement of the milenium and perhaps the one thing we can all agree with.


JFK was a democrat, what do you suppose Gore, Kerry, and Hillary would make of his political views? OK that is another discussion.



Laz,

One does not start treatment until one knows for sure what is going on.

I love this and had it as my signature earlier:

"Let's review: George Bush is an idiot,and Carl Rove and Dick Cheney are evil, so, Global Warming is a proven fact that must be addressed immediately.

It really is quite simple."


In any case I do not believe understand enough of what is going on to start interventions. I am all for lots more research by honest scientists into what is going on.

[scottl]

BTW what is a pub?

Oh and JFK was picket sorta at random, not that I idolize him or meant him as an exemplary model.

[Lazarus Long]

Pub is a nickname for RePUBlicans that is entering the lexicon analogous to *Dem*.

I am dismayed and disgusted by the two party system and feel thoroughly unrepresented by both.

Scott, I also happen to agree with those suggesting that we live in a *duopoly*; essentially a *divide and rule* false dichotomy, doing more to preserve the vested interests of power and privilege than ever protecting the interests of the citizens or even the nation.

I also hold this circumstance not only as demonstrative of the culpably corrupt and venal ineptitude of *Republicrats* at actually leading by preparation or responding to serious crises but one of the principal causal aspects for the worsening polarization we are witness to daily.

[scottl]

You'll like this then Laz,

Let's get rid of all the turkeys

http://www.opinionjo...n/?id=110008453

"doing more to preserve the vested interests of power and privilege than ever protecting the interests of the citizens or even the nation. "

Well...the problem is partly that politicain's spend spend spend and part of what they spend on are things to...well here she says it better then I:

"But in Washington, those in power--Republicans and Democrats--stand arm in arm as they spend and spend. (Part of the reason is that they think they can buy off your unhappiness one way or another. After all, it's worked in the past"

So part of the problem is the nanny state and that we...well some us expect the state to do things it should not be doing.

[biggee]

Lazarus Long wrote:

Scott, I also happen to agree with those suggesting that we live in a *duopoly*; essentially a *divide and rule* false dichotomy, doing more to preserve the vested interests of power and privilege than ever protecting the interests of the citizens or even the nation.

This is my main point on the global warming issue.

If anything can be confused enough to divide the people (box mentality, separating the "cattle" into different herds arguing amongst ourselves for what we "believe" in, all the loud dis-integrated voices out there chattering away), then we can easily fall victim within the trap, without our suspecting it.

Either there is GW or there isn't GW. Either there is "cycles" or there isn't cycles. Either things occur naturally or they don't (are caused by man). Either man is accelerating GW or man isn't. Either man can make a big enough impact to effect GW or man can not. What ever, I am just asking humanity to get the frikken story straight and no one seems to want that. How can things be so dis-integrated in the scientific community. Someone is pulling the "purse strings" and we don't get it! That should be enough for anyone to suspend any and all judgement. The very act of suspending judgement and demanding proper resolve instead of more speciousness, would be a great start. Otherwise it is a mere form of pyschological masterbation that satisfies all us cattle, that plays right into the hands of all the varying "herdsmen" in thier many facades. We have bought into that mentality, "hook, line and sinker" in the many aspects of global living.

Stand for integrated honesty in all aspects and make that the "guiding light", not belief!

We are mostly unaware that we actually endorse and play to perfection our roles as the sacraficial lambs we are corraled in to.
-----------------------------
Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil ~Lazurus Long

[jackinbox]

Biggee, I’m still waiting for your comments on the post I made about your “source of information”. After all, it’s after you posted one of those links that this debate sparked. Does it remain an important part of your “30 years of research”? Do you consider it to be a “trusted authority"?

[Live Forever]

All Republicans are evil neo-con facists controlled by big business and Christian fundamentalists.

All Democrats are hippie, left-wing socialists that want to run the economy into the ground.


That is why everyone should be a....Libertarian!

Approve of the rights of individuals? ("socially liberal", aka approving of the rights of whoever to do whatever as long as it doesn't hurt someone else, get abortions, develop stem cell technologies, etc etc. that are considered "Democrat" topics)

Want less big government? ("economically conservative", less government, less taxes, more local control of government, etc. etc. that are considered "Republican" topics)

As well as (and this is the biggie) letting the free market decide most things? (less government control, no government supported monopolies, etc. etc, that are considered both "Republican" and "Democrat" topics)

Although I don't agree fully with everything that Libertarians believe, it does seem as though they have tried to take the "best" qualities of each of the parties and fuse them.



Ok, sorry for the rant, but all this back and forth between Democrats and Republicans called for a Libertarian response, I thought.

[scottl]

Liv,

You should not assume so quick. There is much to recommend libertarianism it certainly avoids many of the ills we are facing now. Does need some tinkering, but a good start.

[Live Forever]

Liv,

You should not assume so quick.  There is much to recommend libertarianism it certainly avoids many of the ills we are facing now.  Does need some tinkering, but a good start.

I was not assuming, if you are referring to the Democrats and Republicans thing, of course I know they are not all one thing or the other. I was attempting to be humorous by offending everyone (taking into account the previous name calling in the thread). Often I am unsuccessful at that though (being funny), haha. [lol]