55 replies to this topic

[WillNitschke]

OK, what science are you going on? I'm not aware of any published research on longlivity in humans. Are you? If so, please link. On the other hand, there are hundreds (thousands?) of published papers on the side effects of metformin. Most of the dangerous ones are fortunately rare. You can discover all this for yourself, using PubMed.

Also note that long term chronic problems are less likely to be readily attributable to metformin. Studies convincingly show it saves lives overall among people with Type II diabetes. But that doesn't automatically mean it doesn't do more harm than good for non diabetics. The data is simply not there.

 

As for longevity in general, I haven't found the mouse studies particularly heartening. Life span increases ranging from -15% to +15% with most in the 5% or so range. Sorry, I don't have the links handy.

Lactic Acidosis only kills people who overdose on it? Evidence for this claim? How do you know you've overdosed? Because you now have lactic acidosis???

As for deaths relating to Lactic Acidosis (as one example). Probably very small compared to the usage. I.e., millions take this drug. It probably kills only a few thousand each year. So what's to worry about, right?

Keep in mind you should not be confusing 'safe' in the medical literature with the use of that word in every day speech. A medical paper will frequently point out that metformin is safe relative to injecting insulin. Perfectly true. But that doesn't mean harmless.

Edited by WillNitschke, 15 August 2019 - 11:41 AM.

[dazed1]

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5797060/

 

Also dangerous for kidneys.

[GABAergic]

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5797060/

 

Also dangerous for kidneys.

 

 

patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus and moderate chronic kidney disease

 

so it seems it would not be a problem if you are healthy taking it. i dont get your point...

[dazed1]

Literally tons of people are insulin resistant, or have atherosclerosis that has similar damaging effects on kidneys and therefore can simulate diabetes, so its not just for diabetics.

[GABAergic]

so in your own personal view, metformin taken by someone who doesnt have blood sugar problem, versus those who do and use it to benefit, is a detrimental idea?

im not really seeing enough good convincing evidence for this though.

[TheFountain]

 

It probably kills only a few thousand each year. So what's to worry about, right?

 

Where the heck did you derive THIS from????

 

It is about the most ridiculous comment in this entire thread. 

[TheFountain]

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5797060/

 

Also dangerous for kidneys.

 

 

I'm the one who voted NEEDS REFERENCES. 

 

Yea, you gave a reference, but you didn't give a reference providing information that those WITHOUT chronic Kidney disease are at equal risk of Lactic Acidosis! 

 

This is why you NEED REFERENCES!!!!! 

 

Fear monger!

[WillNitschke]

Where the heck did you derive THIS from????

 

It is about the most ridiculous comment in this entire thread. 

 

The comment comes from a logical inference from the medical data (not made by me but others in the literature). Lactic acidosis is rare (only about a half dozen or so per 100,000) but has a high death rate if diagnosed. Divide the millions who take it, and you have a few thousand deaths per year.

Nothing silly about any of the comments here, except yours above.

[WillNitschke]

I'm the one who voted NEEDS REFERENCES. 

 

Yea, you gave a reference, but you didn't give a reference providing information that those WITHOUT chronic Kidney disease are at equal risk of Lactic Acidosis! 

 

This is why you NEED REFERENCES!!!!! 

 

Fear monger!

 

Right so metformin has the highest FDA warning possible: risk of death. Elderly people are advised not to take it because of possible toxic consequences also. (That means if your heart, kidneys, liver, etc., are not operating 100% normally, it could be toxic.)

 

If you want "references" read the warnings on the box. Also the prescription advisories ;-P

Relative safety is not the same as "safe". If you're diabetic then metformin clearly shows in studies it reduces all cause mortality. This is because diabetics are at high risk of cancer, stroke, etc etc etc.

Chemotherapy is the same. If you have cancer, chemotherapy statistically will increase longevity. Doesn't mean it's "safe" to use if you don't have cancer though.

Everything is about risk/reward. The risks are known. The rewards are unknown.

 

Edited by WillNitschke, 16 August 2019 - 10:55 AM.

[WillNitschke]

so in your own personal view, metformin taken by someone who doesnt have blood sugar problem, versus those who do and use it to benefit, is a detrimental idea?

im not really seeing enough good convincing evidence for this though.

 

Sorry it's hard to take seriously someone who has just told me that the health benefits of exercise are "over rated" and that because everything ingested has risk, we shouldn't worry about risk at all. ;-)

[GABAergic]

they are over rated. you are a good example you keep going around promoting it only because you get enjoyment out of it personally and i know from a fact hanging out with people who exercise a lot they are addicts who replaced other addictions out there, for that rush and high from exercising a lot that some get. guess what buddy, not everyone gets high on exercise. im one of those people. instead of that high you get, i get anxiety, depression and i feel sick. so yes, you dont know how others react to exercise and it IS over rated because nobody ever talks about side effects of it.

btw that picture you are showing on your avatar, you are a typical muscle head. addicted to exercise, AND a huge narcissist showing off a lot. but people who are so pumped up seem bloated to me and about to fart and explode any moment. please take that nasty picture off before i vomit all over it.

Edited by GABAergic, 16 August 2019 - 04:35 PM.

[dazed1]

@gabaretic, have you ever,

1. Measured your blood glucose when you get depression or anxious post workout?

2. When is the last time you had blood work, or have made an advanced inflammatory markers test?

3. What is your supplement stack, and how would you rate your memory, focus, and general mitochondrial function?

[dazed1]

I'm the one who voted NEEDS REFERENCES. 

 

Yea, you gave a reference, but you didn't give a reference providing information that those WITHOUT chronic Kidney disease are at equal risk of Lactic Acidosis! 

 

This is why you NEED REFERENCES!!!!! 

 

Fear monger!

 

Hmm, ok. Lets say you need to test your kidney function, what do you do?

[WillNitschke]

they are over rated. you are a good example you keep going around promoting it only because you get enjoyment out of it personally and i know from a fact hanging out with people who exercise a lot they are addicts who replaced other addictions out there, for that rush and high from exercising a lot that some get. guess what buddy, not everyone gets high on exercise. im one of those people. instead of that high you get, i get anxiety, depression and i feel sick. so yes, you dont know how others react to exercise and it IS over rated because nobody ever talks about side effects of it.

btw that picture you are showing on your avatar, you are a typical muscle head. addicted to exercise, AND a huge narcissist showing off a lot. but people who are so pumped up seem bloated to me and about to fart and explode any moment. please take that nasty picture off before i vomit all over it.

 

I despise exercise and would not do any of it except for the health benefits. I'm referring to resistance training and cardio work such as HIIT. Please don't project your personal mental pathologies onto others. Many people such as yourself tend to confuse exercise with sports done for pleasure. A good rule of thumb is, if you enjoying your exercise you're not doing it right. Another problem I see repeatedly with people, and I don't know what the solution is here, is that most people do dangerous exercise, especially resistance training related, hurt themselves, then don't want to blame themselves for their own ignorance. But the problem is even bigger than that. I repeatedly see personal trainers advocate for stupid or even dangerous exercises.

This all relates back to the topic of why would someone take metformin, which regulates blood sugar levels, when their blood sugar levels are already pretty much perfect. What exactly do they think the risk/reward ratio is going to be here?
 

[TheFountain]

The comment comes from a logical inference from the medical data (not made by me but others in the literature). Lactic acidosis is rare (only about a half dozen or so per 100,000) but has a high death rate if diagnosed. Divide the millions who take it, and you have a few thousand deaths per year.

Nothing silly about any of the comments here, except yours above.

 

Again, NEEDS REFERENCES.

 

I see absolutely no evidence of Lactic Acidosis as a serious risk factor for those taking low dose Metformin. 

 

You need to prove your assertions. 

[TheFountain]

Hmm, ok. Lets say you need to test your kidney function, what do you do?

Start with a blood Urea Nitrogen test.

 

The appropriate ranges are  

<=18 mg/dL

 

 

[smithx]

Hmm, ok. Lets say you need to test your kidney function, what do you do?

 

The FDA warnings on Metformin (see: https://www.drugs.co...html#s-34071-1)use eGFR as a criterion.

 

Here is the relevant section:

 

 

1. Renal impairment—The postmarketing Metformin-associated lactic acidosis cases primarily occurred in patients with significant renal impairment.   The risk of Metformin accumulation and Metformin-associated lactic acidosis increases with the severity of renal impairment because Metformin is substantially excreted by the kidney. Clinical recommendations based upon the patient’s renal function include (see DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION , CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY )

2. Before initiating Metformin hydrochloride tablets, obtain an estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR)

3. Metformin hydrochloride tablets are contraindicated in patients with an eGFR less than 30 mL/min/1.73 m2 (see CONTRAINDICATIONS ).

4. Initiation of Metformin hydrochloride tablets is not recommended in patients with eGFR between 30 to 45 mL/min/1.73 m2.

5. Obtain an eGFR at least annually in all patients taking Metformin hydrochloride tablets. In patients at risk for the development of renal impairment (e.g., the elderly), renal function should be assessed more frequently.

6. In patients taking Metformin hydrochloride tablets whose eGFR falls below 45 mL/min/   1.73 m2, assess the benefit and risk of continuing therapy.

7. Drug interactions —The concomitant use of Metformin hydrochloride tablets with specific drugs may increase the risk of Metformin-associated lactic acidosis: those that impair renal function, result in significant hemodynamic change, interfere with acid-base balance, or increase Metformin accumulation. Consider more frequent monitoring of patients.

8. Age 65 or greater —The risk of Metformin-associated lactic acidosis increases with the patient’s age because elderly patients have a greater likelihood of having hepatic, renal, or cardiac impairment than younger patients. Assess renal function more frequently in elderly patients.

9. Radiologic studies with contrast —Administration of intravascular iodinated contrast agents in Metformin-treated patients has led to an acute decrease in renal function and the occurrence of lactic acidosis. Stop Metformin hydrochloride tablets, at the time of, or prior to, an iodinated contrast imaging procedure in patients with an eGFR between 30 and 60 mL/min/1.73 m2; in patients with a history of hepatic impairment, alcoholism or heart failure; or in patients who will be administered intra-arterial iodinated contrast. Re-evaluate eGFR 48 hours after the imaging procedure, and restart Metformin hydrochloride tablets if renal function is stable.

10. Surgery and other procedures —Withholding of food and fluids during surgical or other procedures may increase the risk for volume depletion, hypotension, and renal impairment. Metformin hydrochloride tablets should be temporarily discontinued while patients have restricted food and fluid intake.

11. Hypoxic states —Several of the post marketing cases of Metformin-associated lactic acidosis occurred in the setting of acute congestive heart failure (particularly when accompanied by hypoperfusion and hypoxemia). Cardiovascular collapse (shock), acute myocardial infarction, sepsis, and other conditions associated with hypoxemia have been associated with lactic acidosis and may cause prerenal azotemia. When such an event occurs, discontinue Metformin hydrochloride tablets.

12. Excessive alcohol intake —Alcohol is known to potentiate the effect of Metformin on lactate metabolism. Patients, therefore, should be warned against excessive alcohol intake, acute or chronic, while receiving Metformin hydrochloride tablets.

13. Hepatic impairment —Patients with hepatic impairment have developed cases of Metformin‑ associated lactic acidosis. This may be due to impaired lactate clearance resulting in higher lactate blood levels. Therefore, avoid use of Metformin hydrochloride tablets in patients with clinical or laboratory evidence of hepatic disease.

 

Edited by smithx, 18 August 2019 - 06:39 AM.

[smithx]

Wrong organ. BUN is used primarily to asses liver function.

 

 

 

Start with a blood Urea Nitrogen test.

 

The appropriate ranges are  

<=18 mg/dL

 

 

 

 

 

[TheFountain]

Wrong organ. BUN is used primarily to asses liver function.

 

Okay that too.

 

Anyway my last Creatinine function test was

 

 

CREATININE 0.82 mg/dL <=1.30 mg/dL GLOMERULAR FILTRATION RATE 108 mL/min/BSA mL/min/BSA

[dazed1]

Microalbumin/Creatinine ratio.

[smithx]

Wrong organ. BUN is used primarily to asses liver function.

 

Sorry I was wrong about that one. It is kidney function too. But eGFR is used for metformin.

[dazed1]

eGFR is used for atherosclerosis also, together with microalbumin/creatinine, atherosclerosis affects kidneys alot.

[WillNitschke]

I note that David Sinclair also takes a statin... so is that going to be added to your drug stack too?

Looking at the available safety data, the risk of complications from a statin include stroke, also early on-set diabetes. For diabetes, it's approx. 75 people per 10,000. So yeah, it's low risk. On the other hand, if you take metformin and/or a statin for 10 or 20 years longer than the average, is the long term risk of complications greater?

 

[smithx]

Just came across this U.S. company which says it will be able to prescribe metformin, rapamycin, dasatinib, and NAD patches.

https://www.qalytude.com/

 

They'd be prescribed by a doctor, so possibly could be covered by insurance.

 

 

 

 

[Mind]

Just came across this U.S. company which says it will be able to prescribe metformin, rapamycin, dasatinib, and NAD patches.

https://www.qalytude.com/

 

They'd be prescribed by a doctor, so possibly could be covered by insurance.

 

I met them at RAADfest. They hope to add more prescription medicines in the future. I wonder if they will get in trouble with the FDA. Maybe not, since they are only facilitating a connection with licensed doctors.

[YoungSchizo]

I have 400 tablets of Matofin/Sanovel (trademark) 500mg Metformin XR HCL tablets which I don't use.

If someone is interested within Europe PM me.