48 replies to this topic

[MikeDC]

I asked you to point out where that comparison was made in your paper, and you cannot because there is no comparison. No one is making the comparison because there is no money in it. I have tried NR and NMN and gotten nothing from them, however, I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose. Which is to be expected, as that would be like taking 4 grams of NR.

Fig. 5b of Brenner's paper tells the story. The average NAD+ produced by NR and Nam was the same within the error bars. And given that the paper speaks of "mole equivalent doses of Nam," that suggest the researchers used twice as much NR as Nam, as the molar weight of NR (255.2) is roughly twice that of Nam (122.1).

ADPR production was inhibited all the way for NAM. But for NR, the inhibition stopped after 5 hours. So NAM is a Sirtuins inhibitor and NR is a activator after 5 hours.

As a recent paper shows NR is indispensable in liver metabolism. So some cells without the ability to utilize NAM can greatly increase their NAD+ from the increased supply of NR. So just measuring the total NAD+ doesn’t reflect all the benefits of NR.

Edited by MikeDC, 26 December 2019 - 02:11 PM.

[Fredrik]

I asked you to point out where that comparison was made in your paper, and you cannot because there is no comparison. No one is making the comparison because there is no money in it. I have tried NR and NMN and gotten nothing from them, however, I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose. Which is to be expected, as that would be like taking 4 grams of NR. 

 

Fig. 5b of Brenner's paper tells the story. The average NAD+ produced by NR and Nam was the same within the error bars. And given that the paper speaks of "mole equivalent doses of Nam," that suggest the researchers used twice as much NR as Nam, as the molar weight of NR (255.2) is roughly twice that of Nam (122.1).

 

You have provided zero evidence to support your theory besides the anecdotal "I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose" which may as well just be your typical placebo-effect. It´s not clear to me that one should feel anything at all taking NAD precursors.

Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 02:53 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

You have provided zero evidence to support your theory besides the anecdotal "I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose" which may as well just be your typical placebo-effect. It´s not clear to me that one should feel anything at all taking NAD precursors.

 

 

False. I provided evidence that Nam produces the same overall NAD+ increase as NR, at half the dose. 

 

BTW, are you are a stockholder or employee in any of the NAD supplement companies?

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 December 2019 - 02:59 PM.

[MikeDC]

False. I provided evidence that Nam produces the same overall NAD+ increase as NR, at half the dose.

BTW, are you are a stockholder or employee in any of the NAD supplement companies?

That has nothing to do with ribose. NAM can increase NAD+ effectively. But it also inhibit the NAD+ consuming process. NR showed different behavior than NAM.

[Fredrik]

False. I provided evidence that Nam produces the same overall NAD+ increase as NR, at half the dose. 

 

BTW, are you are a stockholder or employee in any of the NAD supplement companies?

 

But only if the NAMPT enzyme is working well. NR/NMN can bypass the salvage pathway. I´m pretty sure no one wants to take high dose nicotinamide until we know if it will inhibit SIRT1 in humans.

 

No and no. I have no shares in any supplement company and I´m not an employee of any of them.

Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 03:13 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

. I´m pretty sure no one wants to take high dose nicotinamide until we know if it will inhibit SIRT1 in humans.

 

 

 

If that is your concern, then you should not be taking NR, as according to Fig 5d of the Brenner paper, NR produces a higher rise of Nam than Nam itself.

[Fredrik]

If that is your concern, then you should not be taking NR, as according to Fig 5d of the Brenner paper, NR produces a higher rise of Nam than Nam itself.

 

I´m not taking NR. I haven´t seen evidence that NR does anything useful in humans.

Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 03:34 PM.

[MikeDC]

If that is your concern, then you should not be taking NR, as according to Fig 5d of the Brenner paper, NR produces a higher rise of Nam than Nam itself.

But NR has other benefits beyond NAM. NR becomes an activator after 5 hours. NR can increase NAD+ in cells that rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor.

[LawrenceW]

NR can increase NAD+ in cells that rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor.

 

Which cells rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor? Please provide references.

[able]

But NR has other benefits beyond NAM. NR becomes an activator after 5 hours. NR can increase NAD+ in cells that rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor.

 

 

There are no cells that rely solely on NR.  Some cells require conversion to NR before crossing the cell membrane, but that does not impede their usage.

 

This research shows that when introduced to serum outside of cells, ALL the NAD+ metabolites can increase intracellular NAD+ in cells.

 

Degradation of Extracellular NAD+ Intermediates in Cultures of Human HEK293 Cells

 

NMN was the MOST effective at doing so (see chart below)

 

This was in cells that NMN and NAD+ need to convert to NR to cross the cell membrane. It is not a barrier to entry.

 

They also show NR is far less stable than NMN and NAD+, and degraded to NAM within 1 hour, so is not able to reach most cells in the body as NR.

 

Many other studies also show NR is not stable in blood, for instance:

A reduced form of nicotinamide riboside defines a new path for NAD+ biosynthesis and acts as an orally bioavailable NAD+ precursor

 

 

NR quickly disappears from the bloodstream, and is almost undetectable 1 h after intraperitoneal administration at 500 mg/kg. 

 

Elegant tracer experiments demonstrated that after oral intake, NR was utilized as such by the liver, while it predominantly reached the peripheral tissues as its degradation product, NAM.

 

 

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[George2]

Yes, it happened to me. I bought several bottles of Solensis 200 mg NMN and I took 2 caps (400 mg) as recommended. However, it causes a real bad flushing within 2 hrs every time. I am familiar with Niacin flush since I used to take Nicotinic acid. The flushing is very similar to taking 500 mg Nicotinic acid. I have tried NMN from other manufacturers which did not produce any flushing (but I am not sure if they are authentic either). I have 22 bottles of this, which I bought from different outlets and all the bottles I tried do produce flushing. I continue to take it because I believe it is Nictoinic acid and it is helpful - although it is some expensive nicotinic acid 

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[MikeDC]

You got better version. Most NMN are just NAM.

[able]

Yes, it happened to me. I bought several bottles of Solensis 200 mg NMN and I took 2 caps (400 mg) as recommended. However, it causes a real bad flushing within 2 hrs every time. I am familiar with Niacin flush since I used to take Nicotinic acid. The flushing is very similar to taking 500 mg Nicotinic acid. I have tried NMN from other manufacturers which did not produce any flushing (but I am not sure if they are authentic either). I have 22 bottles of this, which I bought from different outlets and all the bottles I tried do produce flushing. I continue to take it because I believe it is Nictoinic acid and it is helpful - although it is some expensive nicotinic acid 

 

 

That is a problem with any supplement that gets a lot of attention quickly. 

 

There is nothing to stop scammers from jumping in, throwing a label on a bottle, and selling on Amazon.

 

Buyers hear about it, and go look for the best price with decent reviews (many of which are fake), and buy.  

 

There is no oversight to ensure quality.  People buy the crap and when they don't get good results, it just damages the reputation of of the product.  

 

Don't look for the cheapest price.  

[MikeDC]

That is a problem with any supplement that gets a lot of attention quickly.

There is nothing to stop scammers from jumping in, throwing a label on a bottle, and selling on Amazon.

Buyers hear about it, and go look for the best price with decent reviews (many of which are fake), and buy.

There is no oversight to ensure quality. People buy the crap and when they don't get good results, it just damages the reputation of of the product.

Don't look for the cheapest price.

Niacin may be better than NMN. So it is not a bad deal.

[George2]

That is a problem with any supplement that gets a lot of attention quickly. 

 

There is nothing to stop scammers from jumping in, throwing a label on a bottle, and selling on Amazon.

 

Buyers hear about it, and go look for the best price with decent reviews (many of which are fake), and buy.  

 

There is no oversight to ensure quality.  People buy the crap and when they don't get good results, it just damages the reputation of of the product.  

 

Don't look for the cheapest price.  

 

I have finally decided to get bulk quantity from manufacturers (1-2 Kg each) and have it tested in a lab. I am testing both NMN and NR. I am purchasing a capsuling machine to pack the product into capsules. I think that is the only way to get authentic stuff  Between, me, close family members, it should last no more than a year. The testing costs are high, but in the end you will have something that you can trust 

[Phoebus]

I have finally decided to get bulk quantity from manufacturers (1-2 Kg each) and have it tested in a lab. I am testing both NMN and NR. I am purchasing a capsuling machine to pack the product into capsules. I think that is the only way to get authentic stuff  Between, me, close family members, it should last no more than a year. The testing costs are high, but in the end you will have something that you can trust 

 

 

 where are you getting bulk 1 kg quantities of NR/NMN? 

[able]

I have finally decided to get bulk quantity from manufacturers (1-2 Kg each) and have it tested in a lab. I am testing both NMN and NR. I am purchasing a capsuling machine to pack the product into capsules. I think that is the only way to get authentic stuff  Between, me, close family members, it should last no more than a year. The testing costs are high, but in the end you will have something that you can trust 

 

 

Testing and encapsulating yourself would for sure guarantee purity.  Do you also plan to test for heavy metals?  Sounds like a lot of trouble, but maybe I'm just lazy.

 

You could buy from a more trustworthy company like prohealth or ABS that publishes test reports with batch numbers, so you know the bottle you get has had that specific batch tested.  

 

Many companies will post a test report from a sample, that does nothing to prove what they put in a finished product.  

Edited by able, 23 May 2021 - 04:22 PM.

[George2]

Testing and encapsulating yourself would for sure guarantee purity.  Do you also plan to test for heavy metals?  Sounds like a lot of trouble, but maybe I'm just lazy.

 

You could buy from a more trustworthy company like prohealth or ABS that publishes test reports with batch numbers, so you know the bottle you get has had that specific batch tested.  

 

Many companies will post a test report from a sample, that does nothing to prove what they put in a finished product.  

Yes, I plan to test heavy metals, melting point, solubility, purity by HPLC, solvents, and moisture. I have narrowed down to 2 suppliers for each product who claim to be manufacturers, but I will have to just go for it and see. If they are not, I will lose some money on testing.. I was initially planning to go to China (for other reasons also) and visit some of these companies, but with Covid restrictions in China, it is difficult. It might take me a month or more to get the results as the testing company has to optimize the HPLC conditions. In fact, I am only getting a sample from them now and if it works out, I will figure out how to get a larger quantity of the same material. May have to buy 5 Kg to bring down the cost to the same as what you get on Amazon.

[George2]

 where are you getting bulk 1 kg quantities of NR/NMN? 

I will let you know if the testing works out. I am not very sure. There are many companies who claim to be manufactures, but certainly there can't be so many companies making NMN! Only testing will let me know which is fake and which is real. I will lose some testing money in the process if some or all of them are fake. As for NR, there may be patent issues for getting it to the US, but Basis is doing it, so it might be possible