46 replies to this topic

[FunkOdyssey]

So the bottom line is that neither GeroNova nor AOR uses a clinically proven time release methodology?

I remember seeing a graph that Pete posted of plasma levels of RLA after ingestion of the new (at the time) Geronova RLA/MCT formula, demonstrating a relatively flat plateau over a 5+ hour period. I looked back at his post and the link to that graph is now dead. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?

[Pablo M]

Well, my LEF sales flyer indicates that a "majority" of LEF customers have switched to R-dihydrolipoic acid, so if R-DHLA really is pro-aging when taken on its own, LEF has a lot of blood on their hands.

[doug123]

I don't think anyone is saying that R-DHLA is pro aging, just that it is not the science backed supplement.

Edited by nootropikamil, 02 July 2006 - 08:35 AM.

[zerodeathrider]

QUOTE 
So the bottom line is that neither GeroNova nor AOR uses a clinically proven time release methodology? 

I remember seeing a graph that Pete posted of plasma levels of RLA after ingestion of the new (at the time) Geronova RLA/MCT formula, demonstrating a relatively flat plateau over a 5+ hour period. I looked back at his post and the link to that graph is now dead. Anyone remember what I'm talking about?

I have a copy of it on my computer if anyone wants it.

[doug123]

I never saw this nor heard about it. I am trying to remain as impartial and skeptical to the data as possible, considering I am a vendor in the R-lipoic acid market; I'll just ask questions.

There are obviously several other considerations to be taken in account: under what conditions did the plasma level deliver such readings? Did the subject take the R-lipoic/R-DHLA on an empty stomach, with food, etc? What dose exactly was used? What was the body weight of the subject whose blood was drawn? How (using what methods exactly) were plasma levels measured? How old was the subject? Would using a larger or different sample change the final values? I would not expect GeroNova to present misleading data as that might undermine their success if their data is later found to be inaccurate. The time release statement by GeroNova is that the MCT delivery system may make it a time release. I have seen data that corroborates that the MCT delivery system should improve bioavailability, and theoretically make the time release effect:

The integration of medium chain triglycerides into GeroNova R-lipoic acid products may make the MCT perform as a self-emulsifying drug delivery system (SEDDS). According to this study, MCT: "enhances the oral bio availability by raising the solubility of poorly water soluble compounds."

This paper seems to suggest something similar -- that a combination of a medium-chain triglyceride (Neobee M5) and Peanut Oil) increased bio availability. I could be wrong, and I have not dug through all of the research on MCT -- but it apparently is used in some forms of advanced drug delivery systems...to positively affect bio-availability.


Peace.

[zerodeathrider]

I never saw this nor heard about it. I am trying to remain as impartial and skeptical to the data as possible, considering I am a vendor in the R-lipoic acid market; I'll just ask questions.

Is there any reason why you only carry the Geronova brand of Lipoics?

Oh and did you want that plasma study? I have it in a png format.

[doug123]

Sure! I'd be happy to explain.

Why do you think I only carry Sabinsa's Bacopin product? Because I am sure of their quality -- ie free from contaminants, and that their products match the advertised label potency. Oh, and Sabinsa has WHO (World Health Organization) and Orthodox Union Kosher (OU) certifications on their manufacturing operations. Can't really beat that

I suppose I could sell other R-ala products, but I am unsure (with most suppliers) that the raw material is high enough quality, or that the finished product does not have any polymer, or other impurities.

Edited by opales, 22 June 2006 - 10:42 PM.

[sentinel]

At the risk of dumbing down the discussion for a moment, which I must say given all varying views and evidence is impressively constructive and informative, might I ask what dose and brands people are using. I realise that these are not definitive but I have tried a number of noops, kept some dropped others, and despite searching through the various threads have found it hard to nail down how much of Alcar and ALA varients (time released or otherwise) people use or recommend.

At this stage I'm not looking to bulk buy as it may or may not suit me and I don't have a capping machine, and also any recommendations for European delivery would be cool. Like I say, I don't want to interupt the flow of research and opinion but it seems that this was what Glexia was shooting for at the the start of the thread.

Cheers

Sentinel

[stellar]

100-150mg KRALA is a good dose. Sources? Customnutritionwarehouse.com carries geronova's K-RALA, 15g for $19.99. Not sure if they ship to europe, they probably do.

[doug123]

I suppose there still is some interest in GeroNova's K-RALA 40% stabilized "active" R-ala in a potassium salt.

Some folks haven't heard of nor tried any of GeroNova' innovative new R-lipoic products; such as
Na-RALA Sodium R-Lipoic Acid -- 70% "active" R-ala in a sodium salt or RLA-MCT25 -- 25% "active" R-ala in medium chain tryglycerides.

K-RALA was developed in 2003, and might not be as cost effective compared to their newer products. I'm off to go see Peaceful Warrior now. I will try to do a price efficiency comparison between K-RALA, RLAMCT25, and Na-RALA after I get back. Peace out.

[syr_]

Adam, I like your pricing on RLA-MCT25, gotta order some as soon I finish my KRALA stack (70 days).

[doug123]

Folks who don't want to deal with middle men can contact info@geronova.com to purchase their kgs (that's their minimum size order).

I am trying to separate business dealings within my postings in this forum as much as possible, so please check the "supplier forum" for updates. Peace out.

Edited by nootropikamil, 02 July 2006 - 08:36 AM.

[sentinel]

Thanks Stellar.

Adam, I appreciate you keeping it separate (and courteously professional) but so as to avoid starting another thread, do you ship to Europe? and, on a more functional level, is it practical to use some kind of scoop or 2.5 ml medicine spoon to ascertain a relevant dose of RLA-MCT25 before going down the capping route etc as bulk powder is clearly cheaper? Although, as I said before, I haven't actually tried it yet so probably won't put my name down for a couple of Ki's just yet

Cheers

Sentinel

[doug123]

What you should do first is get a cheap high quality scale. The model linked below is very cheap (about $20 USD). You can get one at

http://balance.balances.com/scales/853

It's a great little scale that weighs accurate to 0.1 gram (or 100mg) with at least a 120 gram capacity. Purchasing raw materials and encapsulating yourself can make the cost of taking most supplements 50% cheaper -- or less, in many cases.

With supplements, accuracy to 0.1 gram is perfectly fine; if one wants to take the therapeutic dose of R-alpha-lipoic acid, one should be taking at least 200-300mg elemental R-alpha-lipoic acid three times a day (three times a day to ensure the R-lipoic sticks around in the plasma long enough to do its work on a daily basis).

Empty 00 Size capsules weight about 0.1 gram. Using the scale I linked to above (a ~$20 scale that will last you with a lifetime warranty, A 0.9g weight of an 00 capsule would mean you have ~800mg of whatever compound is inside

Check the supplier forum for a guide to encapsulate your own supplements.

To answer your question: we do ship to Europe. The cost is $20 for USPS global priority http://www.usps.com/...rioritymail.htm and $40 for USPS global express http://www.usps.com/...expressmail.htm

[sentinel]

Thanks Adam,

I guess I'll have to seriously consider getting the whole scales/capping thing sorted, especially if I'm going to live forever

If so I'll be sure to hit your site.

[doug123]

GeroNova's K-RALA capsules are also available here

[startime]

the issue of sustained release of lipoic acid ;vs quick release

let me ask ; am i wrong ?

scientific research into the molecular mechanism of how la works in vivo /agreeable by most la experts' suggests
it involves activation of the natural environmental "stress-response" system which up-regulate the so called early response genes ,by inducing a mild hormetic or redox stress
thus activating phase ll detoxification enzymes via nr-f2 and the antioxidant response element ,cell's homeostasis mechanism been reset;
as its well established that normal cellular signal transduction is in part mediated by free radical
and natures way of making body more adaptable to stress and environmental insults ;

but that requires a threshold concentration ;which therefore gets rapid absorbed from the gut and reach peak concentration in the bloodstream within 15-45 minutes
despite its abbreviated half life ;due to not acting a a direct scavenger of free radicals; so doesn't require longer period ;as all pk studies in animal and humans ,published since 1955 clearly indicate that mrt is not the critical determinant regarding the therapeutic efficacy of la

quick release lipoic acid is toxic in cats above 13 mg/kg
though safe efficacious for dogs up to 25 mg/kg
because in cats la sustain in plasma much longer due to lower rate of hepatic metabolism and excretion;

brought us to question whether sustain la in plasma is beneficial or increase toxicity ;and may inhibit beneficial oxidative signals ;and as all pk and clinical studies argue strongly against and advantage to crla over qrla ;

though crla are not new ; their pk parameters and metabolism been studied far less then qrla ;metabolite profile may differ considerately due to increased mrt ;

brief study ,12 weeks by evens etal ,reported no toxicity and few adverse reaction for crla ;but no study yet with larger population and larger period of time ;

qrla administered to cirrhotic patient ,the plasma half-life was increased compared to normal or hepatitis patient;
indicating an inability to clear la from the blood; thus decline in liver function can increase the mean residence time of la in plasma ;

rapid clearance and metabolite transformation of la by liver ;seem necessary and fundamental to mechanism of action in liver to prevent tolaribity and safety risks

peak concentration and rapid plasma clearance seem a fundamental physiological and metabolic property of la essiantal to its safety and efficient therapeutic action